General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's been nine years.
Nine years since I sat with my 3 year old grand daughter in my lap watching the reporting of Sandy Hook on MSNBC.
Nine years since 20 first grade children were shot 400 times and 6 of their teachers died with them.
Nine years and to this day the last five minutes of their lives reverberates in my head. The sound of gunshots in a small room, the screaming, calling for Mommy and Daddy, the smell of cordite and blood.
Just like it was yesterday.
We have done NOTHING in nine years.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US?
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)That is when I know nothing would change, at least in my lifetime.
Americans are a violent, dangerous people. Who could care less if their children are shot to bits while at school.
iemanja
(54,481 posts)The GOP shot it down
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)electric_blue68
(17,377 posts)Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)And while not all Americans are killing each other, most of us just let it happen and don't do much about it.
Just like a large segment of Americans won't wear a mask, won't get vaxxed as we near 1 million dead.
I am so disgusted with my fellow citizens that I am going to stand by my comments.
electric_blue68
(17,377 posts)minority (the ones with weapons of war in particular) yapping about their "freedumbs". A smaller, and really terrifying minority that would do away with a fair amount of us - libruls, progressives, POC, smart women, etc.
And there are a lot of serious issues for us to deal with, elect people who'll take actions we want, etc. Plus sort of steps backwards when Repuglicans are in charge esp since Reagan.
llmart
(16,277 posts)It's not a small minority.
electric_blue68
(17,377 posts)Do more than 50% of Americans own guns? Honestly, idk.
If it's 40% - 45% that's a big minority!
You have your biggestv group of average hunters, sportspersons who have one to several. You have a far suburban, then fully rural person, or family where there may be just one solely for protection.
But then you have in addition the gun happy weapons of war people, and their "freedums". That's a smaller, maybe not as small as I think group. But even those might be more in a defensive posture.
Then within that group are th ones who'd consider actively, if not right out kill us if conditions were just right.
And the pure criminals who carry.
Elessar Zappa
(15,399 posts)Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)We do nothing while school children are killed in their classrooms.
llmart
(16,277 posts)What have our fellow citizens done in those nine years? I'm disgusted with them also.
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)spanone
(137,431 posts)The NRA should be dismantled, destroyed, shamed.
housecat
(3,137 posts)Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)housecat
(3,137 posts)Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)He is one of the richest men in the world, but this he bought cheap.
Russian military were brought in before the 2016 presidential election to run propaganda and play with the elections.
Russian bots to spew endless propaganda online.
Buy off key senators and congress members.
But off key media.
Buy off the NRA and other groups.
Russia's intelligence service working hard as well.
And the GOP gave him a lot of free assistance.
mahina
(18,797 posts)Thank you.
The NRA should be dismantled, destroyed, shamed.
... and salt spread over them and all members.
the 2A!
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)11 Bravo
(24,066 posts)I received a news alert on my computer, and that's when I first learned of the tragedy.
I was 12 when JFK was assassinated, and Sandy Hook hit me harder than anything since that awful day in 1963.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)And cry a lot.
Initech
(101,518 posts)He's partly responsible for this by harassing and belittling the victims of this tragedy, which only demoralized the true human cost of it, and encouraged copy cats. Really that fucking asshole should be in federal prison for crimes against humanity. Hopefully he will get his.
electric_blue68
(17,377 posts)ShazzieB
(18,385 posts)If I remember correctly, he wasn't just "one of the ones;" he was the MAIN one spreading that hoax conspiracy theory.
He's not just a pos. He's a particularly vile, evil, despicable pos.
electric_blue68
(17,377 posts)Initech
(101,518 posts)Initech
(101,518 posts)And then this happened, and not only is he a garbage person, after what he did to that town he should be shot out of a cannon into the sun. No really, fuck that guy.
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)dead school children.
maxsolomon
(34,894 posts)The backlash would stupendous, however.
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)People are more concerned about their own feelings than the children who were killed.
The Germans were probably not too happy with Eisenhower either.
Leith
(7,851 posts)that rethugs were beyond redemption.
They offered "thoughts and prayers" (AKA abso-fucking-lutely nothing) for the victims. They refused to do a thing to alleviate the problems, pain, and suffering. The day it became impossible for me to imagine that they were doing but chuckling behind closed doors. Now they are openly laughing in our faces while children and other innocents die or are maimed forever. They enjoy it.
For any rethug lurker: prove me wrong.
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)What kind of a people stand by and do nothing when 6 years are shot to ribbons in their classrooms?
What kind of country allows this to happen over and over?
keithbvadu2
(39,726 posts)NRA supporters would rather have dead children than gun control.
To the gun industry, dead children are merely collateral damage/acceptable losses for gun industry profits and political donations.
The NRA used to be for sportsmen, hunters and gun safety.
Now it has become an industry owned shill for the sale of more guns and the enrichment of its leaders.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html
Joe The Plumber: Your Dead Kids Dont Trump My Constitutional Rights To Have Guns
Ironic how he chose that verb back in 2014.
Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)Disgusting.
WhiskeyGrinder
(23,623 posts)AndyS
(14,559 posts)Irish_Dem
(55,825 posts)How are we different from the Germans who ignored the Death Camps?
When we let our children get shot in cold blood in their classrooms. Over and over.
Kaleva
(37,879 posts)We haven't reached that yet. Not even close.
maxsolomon
(34,894 posts)We are saddled with an ambiguous, anachronistic Amendment and disingenuous legislating around it. No Gunner Pols complain about the limits on full-automatic weapons, for instance, yet that is clearly an infringement on Arms that can be borne.
In contemporary America, it cannot be repealed, and there is no legislative will to interpret it differently. It will be generations before Militias are regulated well.
Until then, the carnage continues.
mahina
(18,797 posts)Until we get the supreme court right, check out represent.us.
Right now it really looks like our only hope to reclaim power for the people. Its a state by state workaround a s is already going ahead in a lot of states.
Our right not to be killed and have our kids killed is being trampled and its insane. Unlike the Supreme Court decisions, we do have the power to change.
This vid is a little lighthearted but the work is serious.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Was a republican wet dream for years. They made it no secret exactly what their plan was. Well, they have accomplished their goal and that dream has come true. I distinctly remember Obama talking about the importance of the supreme court. ALL of the courts. Tthe republicans blocked his nominees every step of the way. Merrick Garland ring a bell? Democrats threw up their hands and let it slide. Hillary warned over and over about the courts. But her emails! I just can't, I'm going to vote third Party or not at all. Now, all of a sudden, people are awake. Quite late to the party!
mahina
(18,797 posts)My Mom drilled that point home for decades.
Some folks are easily distracted by shiny things and sadly there are outside forces aligned with wealthy Americans fighting for the wingers to rob us.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)We were all outraged by what happened at Sandy Hook. That we were unable to pass any meaningful gun control legislation in its wake should be evidence enough that we need to change our strategy.
I am a gun owner but I'm also a parent and a functioning member of (what used to be) a civil society. Many of our gun laws are antiquated and ineffective. There are laws from prohibition times that needlessly burden gun owners without adding to the general safety of society.
Revamping the antiquated, ineffective, and burdensome gun laws, while replacing them with effective and modern gun control, is the only real chance we have at passing legislation. Meaningful gun control reform needs to work with, not against, gun owners.
The last decade should be a playbook of what not to do. Don't threaten gun buy backs, all out bans, registries, or anything else that will 1. not pass and 2. reduce the chance of passing anything else. And fix the messaging. The right wingers screamed that Obama was going to take their guns but Trump was responsible for more gun control in 4 years than Obama was in 8. Shout it from the tree tops.
I suggest approaching the gun control issue from an entirely different vantage point. There are numerous things that the gun community wants and would be willing to negotiate to obtain. These things include national reciprocity for concealed carry licenses, a revamp of the antiquated NFA registration system and modernizing what types of weapons must be registered. Some of the requirements are completely arbitrary.
I feel strongly that were we to offer up some real compromises that improved quality of life for gun owners, we'd be able to pass universal background checks and some national standards for gun purchasing / concealed carry licensing, and we'd be compromising on things that would have zero impact to public safety. Seems like a win / win, unless the objective is to make gun owners enemies and not allies.
If we want gun control we're going to have to compromise. Simple as that.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)I've been at this for 40 years and every time I tried to involve gun owners the answer was, "what's in it for me?"
I can say with total confidence that if anything is done about guns it will be done in spite of and to gun owners.
Compromise my ass. I've tried for for four decades to find a SINGLE compromise. There aren't any.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)It seems to me you're more interested in insulting gun owners and less interested in meaningful gun control actually passing.
Keep ranting with the attitude of legislating "in spite of and to gun owners" and see how much gets passed. I'll bet it will be exactly the same as how much has gotten passed since Sandy Hook.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)YOUR IDEA OF COMPROMISE IS TO LET EVERYBODY HAVE FULL AUTO WEAPONS AND REPEAL WHAT LITTLE WE HAVE IN THE WAY OF RESTRICTIONS.
THAT'S NOT A COMPROMISE, THAT'S A CAPITUALTION.
I'VE BEEN AT THIS FOR FORTY YEARS AND I KNOW A LOAD OF BULLSHIT WHEN I SEE IT AND THIS IS A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.
YES, I'M SHOUTING.
Oh, and thanks for being the obligatory gunner trying put lipstick on a pig.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)You're just ranting now. You need to read the post you were replying to because apparently you skimmed (or skipped it entirely).
None of what you just said is true.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)Everything I just said is true. Every time it's give gunners something to get something when gunners already have everything and want more.
No, it's time to just
You screamed: "YOUR IDEA OF COMPROMISE IS TO LET EVERYBODY HAVE FULL AUTO WEAPONS AND REPEAL WHAT LITTLE WE HAVE IN THE WAY OF RESTRICTIONS."
Since I neither suggested that we should let everyone have full autos or remove existing restrictions that are meaningful and effective, I'm not sure how you managed to get that after you, quote, "read that post a dozen times."
Instead of yelling with rage, try reading with quiet contemplation.
What you're doing isn't working. That's why you're understandably upset. The solution is not to continue doing what isn't working.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)something different. Destroy the gun culture like the tobacco industry and drunk driving.
If you're ever interested in passing gun control, instead of fantasizing about things that will never pass, let me know.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)thread to tell us all that we need to compromise.
We need more people like you. It forwards my goal.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)than discuss how to pass actual, meaningful gun control and reform. I'm sure that the victims of the next Sandy Hook will take solace in your righteous indignation.
While you rage, I'll continue to advocate for meaningful gun control that can actually pass.
iemanja
(54,481 posts)In your post above you advocate for increased proliferation through expanded concealed carry.
You saw what you wanted to see.
iemanja
(54,481 posts)was better. Some of your points seem valid. I just can't see the rabid 2A crowd going along with ANY restrictions. The NRA's mission is to promote gun proliferation in the hands of as many people as possible, especially those who are going to use them, like wife abusers, for example.
These are people who believe their guns matter more than the lives of their own children, and they have the courts wrapped around their little fingers.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)Im fairly in touch with the 2A folks and I think these compromises represent our best chance of passing something meaningful. It cant hurt to try.
Response to PTWB (Reply #64)
inthewind21 This message was self-deleted by its author.
SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)Your diplomacy is on point.
The Sandy Hook massacre was a tragedy. But your strategy of waiting for the next big tragedy to scare people into more gun control is a failed strategy.
You could actually accomplish something that reduces gun violence if you listened to people like PTWB. Maybe thats not your goal - I've seen people who relish the fight more than making progress.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)And you're going to criticize my diplomacy?
SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)iemanja
(54,481 posts)That's absurd. I've tried negotiating with the gun people on DU. I learned after a while that they didn't act in good faith. They continually move the goal post. They aren't interested in compromise. They want mind control.
The NRA-type gun owners want to ensure they have enough weapons to destroy the world. Nothing less will satisfy them. They simply do not value human life and never will.
I didn't see anything in your post that amounts to gun control. You called for national reciprocity for concealed carry. Does that mean people should be able to carry guns everywhere because they have a permit in one state? That's not control. That's proliferation. Control control is supposed to limit the number of weapons and access to them, not make it easier for people to use their guns to resolve minor disputes, which is an epidemic now.
SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)In the last few years, some politicians have expressed support for mandatory buy-back programs for some firearm types such as Stacey Abrams, Hillary Clinton, and Beto O'Rourke.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)AndyS
(14,559 posts)eminent domain.
It's right there in the Constitution.
Anyone who is sooooo steeped in the Constitution should know that.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)It's conceivable that eminent domain could be used as a justification for confiscating firearms. Of course, the chances of this actually happening in our lifetime is so small as to not be of any concern. I'm not worried in the slightest that the government is going to take my firearms.
(And in any case, I've already sold off around 85% of them over the last ten years.)
It's "buyback" that's the nonsense term.
SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)Show me where all guns in buyback programs were used to perform government activities -- or even most of them. I'm sure there has been the occasional sheriff who decided a turned-in Python would look good in his holster.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)I bolded and underlined the relevant parts.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Eminent Domain
Overview:
Eminent domain refers to the power of the government to take private property and convert it into public use. The Fifth Amendment provides that the government may only exercise this power if they provide just compensation to the property owners.
Just Compensation Requirement:
In Kohl v. United States, 91 U.S. 367 (1875), the Supreme Court held that the government may seize property through the use of eminent domain, as long as it appropriates just compensation to the owner of the property. In Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corp. 458 US 419 (1982), the Supreme Court clarified that when the government engages in a taking and implements a permanent physical occupation of the property, it must provide the property owner with just compensation, even if the area is small and the government's use does not greatly affect the owner's economic interest.
Public Use Requirement:
In Kelo v. City of New London, Connecticut, 545 U.S. 469 (2005), the Supreme Court held that general benefits which a community would enjoy from the furthering of economic development is sufficient to qualify as a "public use."
Further Reading:
For more on eminent domain, see this Cornell Law Review article, this University of Michigan Law Review article, and this New York Law Journal article.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)For public use? We could use them to outfit the entire military and every police force in the US and not make a dent in civilian supply. Beyond that they could be de-commissioned and used for training as in teaching gunners that gun ownership isn't covered by the first amendment re religious freedom.
'Public use' is a pretty fluid concept.
I still find it amazing that gunners are so callus that they don't realize how poor taste it is to promote gunning in a Sandy Hook thread.
SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)And that's how you made it in the OP.
And use public use is a broad concept, but it's not included in any buyback plans I've seen.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)Your behavior in this thread comes off as callous opportunism at the expense of the aforementioned victims.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume youre not doing that consciously because I think your heart is in the right placeyou are outraged by the deaths of the victims at Sandy Hookbut you dont get to belittle others who are trying to have a meaningful discussion.
You have lifelong Democratic gun owners in this thread bending over backwards to try to engage with you on how we can pass meaningful gun control but youre just ranting and insulting them.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)posters a personal basis. That they do so reflects poorly on their arguments.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)SYFROYH
(34,201 posts)maxsolomon
(34,894 posts)National reciprocity for CC? That's a liberalization that does nothing to increase safety for non-gunners. It would increase the perception of danger, which isn't really where we want to go.
Revamp the NFA? Why? Would you liberalize registration of Full-Autos? Exempt musket-loaders?
Since IDGAF about the "Quality of Life" from Gun Owners, your quo doesn't have much persuasive quid. Guns have won the day, decisively; non-Gunners have little left to compromise on.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)The OP began yelling and screaming in all caps bold, so I didn't feel like it would be worthwhile to go much deeper.
Revamp the NFA because it is ineffective and burdensome. I do not suggest liberalizing the registration of full autos, at all. But full autos aren't the only items on the NFA--the NFA also regulates short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, and sound suppressors (among others). There are arbitrary restrictions here that are essentially meaningless.
For example, you can purchase a short barrel AR-15 pistol with a brace that is essentially identical to a short barreled rifle but does not require registration. For all intents and purposes they're the same gun.
Another example is that you can purchase an AR-15 pistol and convert it into a rifle by adding a buttstock (assuming the barrel length is 16 inches or greater), but cannot purchase an AR-15 rifle and convert it into a pistol by removing the buttstock, even though in both configurations the firearm is identical in every way. The only difference is whether the box 'pistol' or 'rifle' was checked at the time of purchase.
These types of antiquated regulations do not enhance public safety and are simply annoying and burdensome to lawful gun owners. There is no reason to keep them so why not barter with them?
My proposal would be to add minimum standards (training, testing, background check, & set renewal periods) at the federal level for states to enact to grant concealed carry licenses to residents. Any state that meets or exceeds those minimum standards would then enjoy national reciprocity for such licenses. We do the same thing with driver's licenses. This accomplishes two things: it raises the bar to get a concealed carry license (which I have) and it protects licensed carriers in states that otherwise may not recognize their license.
Additionally, I'd mandate that every gun transfer is subject to a background check, whether that is through a dealer or private. We'd have to streamline this process for cases where a family member is inheriting a large number of firearms from a collector, for example, but it wouldn't be hard to do. This would eliminate the 'gun show loophole' and give us another effective tool to combat straw purchasing.
Id also add a federal safe storage law mandating minimum standards for gun storage in and outside the home.
In exchange for the universal background checks and safe storage law, I'd suggest removing sound suppressors from the NFA and treating them like firearms--subject to the now universal background checks. I'd also suggest rewording much of the language in the NFA to remove the ambiguity (the ATF currently defines a shoestring as a machine gun, sometimes, for example) and clarify exactly what constitutes a pistol, a rifle, any other weapon, and modernize the entire registration process for NFA items so that these things don't take over a year to register.
I'd also change the $200 per NFA tax stamp to a one time $200 lifetime NFA license tax. The current tax disproportionately negatively impacts minorities and the impoverished.
While we are talking about background checks, I'd also add more red flags for violent misdemeanors and give folks who are subject to those red flags a streamlined and free-of-charge process to dispute those flags. We want the red flags to be effective and comprehensive without violating due process.
Some folks may balk at the delisting of suppressors from the NFA and of national concealed carry reciprocity, but I think they're reasonable bargaining chips and are worth trading for universal background checks and minimum standards for concealed carry. At the end of the day we'll have meaningful gun control and gun owners will be happier.
maxsolomon
(34,894 posts)I'm sorry, but I am skeptical any of it can happen in my lifetime, which has approximately 30 years remaining (if all goes well). Emotions are too high, the sides are uncompromising, and there are too many guns in too many incompetent hands.
Maybe some Gun Moderate like Tester could give it a try, IDK.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)iemanja
(54,481 posts)Torchlight
(4,233 posts)And who would much rather sea-lion the topic.
A co-worker said off-hand that if we could address this as the GOP does abortion (not tackling the issue head-on, but rather the death-of-a-thousand-cuts), there could be substantive and measurable movement on it.
IzzaNuDay
(515 posts)They could have been in high schools, deciding what classes to take. Giggling about the next dance, participating in activities, thinking about learners permits, going on field trips, and possibly looking long range to graduation and what they will do once they receive that diploma. They would have been taller, maybe past puberty, with changing bodies.
But HELL NO, this gun crazed NRA and the GQP thinks 2nd amendment mean a free for all gun use, for anyone who wants one. Now these little ones are little forever.
Emile
(28,572 posts)enough to enlighten lawmakers to pass some kind of gun legislation, nothing will. After all these years I still tear up when I see pictures of all the little kids lost at Sandy Hook!
CaliforniaPeggy
(151,722 posts)I understand your pessimism.
We cant force gun control through on raw emotion aloneif we could, we would have after Sandy Hook. We have to strategize and compromise until we get something better than we have now. Its the only way.
Bettie
(16,836 posts)who is now a full-blown MAGAt, told me a few days after it happened that the deaths of a bunch of first graders is the price of 'freedom'.
We no longer speak and he is confused as to why that is.