Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 02:12 PM Dec 2021

It's been nine years.

Nine years since I sat with my 3 year old grand daughter in my lap watching the reporting of Sandy Hook on MSNBC.

Nine years since 20 first grade children were shot 400 times and 6 of their teachers died with them.

Nine years and to this day the last five minutes of their lives reverberates in my head. The sound of gunshots in a small room, the screaming, calling for Mommy and Daddy, the smell of cordite and blood.

Just like it was yesterday.

We have done NOTHING in nine years.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US?

90 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
It's been nine years. (Original Post) AndyS Dec 2021 OP
6 year olds shot to ribbons in their classroom. And our leaders didn't care enough to do anything. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #1
Obama and Biden tried really hard to do something iemanja Dec 2021 #4
Yes in all fairness they did. But we need more than a few leaders willing to do something. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #8
The Pain, and Frustration are Very Real, but please... electric_blue68 Dec 2021 #7
I know I can be given to hyperbole. But that is what the rest of the world thinks. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #9
Most Americans are not killing each other, but we have a gun happy electric_blue68 Dec 2021 #15
You underestimate the numbers of people with guns. llmart Dec 2021 #20
🤔 I wasn't as clear as I should have been... electric_blue68 Dec 2021 #32
Only 32% own a gun, according to the last poll I saw. Elessar Zappa Dec 2021 #71
Americans are like the Germans who did nothing about the death camps. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #22
I stand with you on your comments. llmart Dec 2021 #21
We do nothing, nothing at all. We can not defend our inaction. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #23
I share your outrage 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000....% spanone Dec 2021 #2
Russia is the glue that holds them together housecat Dec 2021 #5
Russia doesn't have to send an army to kill us. We are doing it for them. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #11
with only their money housecat Dec 2021 #41
And Putin didn't spend a great deal of money to bring down the US. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #47
I didn't know that. Can you say more about that please? mahina Dec 2021 #45
The NRA... mrsadm Dec 2021 #18
👍🏼 spanone Dec 2021 #46
Destroy keithhs28 Dec 2021 #3
Destroy the 2A before it destroys us. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #12
I was sitting in my classroom at the time, (my students were at Music). 11 Bravo Dec 2021 #6
I tend to drink a bit too much on Dec 14. AndyS Dec 2021 #10
Also, fuck Alex Jones and Infowars to the highest of hells. Initech Dec 2021 #13
Was he one of the ones talking about "crisis actors"? Geeebz! electric_blue68 Dec 2021 #16
Yes. ShazzieB Dec 2021 #31
Yeah. electric_blue68 Dec 2021 #36
And even when he's offline, he's a garbage POS. Initech Dec 2021 #39
Yup, I knew he was a garbage person the first time I heard about him. Initech Dec 2021 #37
Like Eisenhower made the Germans look at death camps, Americans should be made to look at the Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #14
This I agree with. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #30
A backlash would confirm the self-centered, irresponsible stance of the populace. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #43
It was that day when I realized Leith Dec 2021 #17
This is the day that I realized we are all to blame. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #27
Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don't Trump My Constitutional Rights' To Have Guns keithbvadu2 Dec 2021 #19
Their hobby is more important to them than America's children. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #24
This is when I came to terms with the fact that nothing would change. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2021 #25
It's not over and it doesn't have to be this way,. nt AndyS Dec 2021 #26
What does this say about our national character? Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #28
Those Germans who fought against the Nazi regime were willing to pay a big price. Kaleva Dec 2021 #35
There's nothing wrong with me. Or you. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #29
We let donors have more say than voters mahina Dec 2021 #33
The supreme court inthewind21 Dec 2021 #83
It's been the main argument every election for me and mine to turn out mahina Dec 2021 #88
We're not going to pass gun control legislation unless we change our strategy. PTWB Dec 2021 #34
FUCK GUN OWNERS! AndyS Dec 2021 #38
I just told you compromises that would work. PTWB Dec 2021 #40
FUCK GUN OWNERS! AndyS Dec 2021 #42
Brother, you really don't know what you're talking about. PTWB Dec 2021 #44
I've read that post a dozen times. AndyS Dec 2021 #48
Nonsense. PTWB Dec 2021 #49
Yes, and what we are doing is sucking up to gunners. Time to try AndyS Dec 2021 #50
Good luck. PTWB Dec 2021 #51
Thanks again for being the lone gunner to show up in a Sandy Hook AndyS Dec 2021 #52
Thanks for being the guy that would rather rage against gun owners... PTWB Dec 2021 #53
You haven't advocated for control iemanja Dec 2021 #59
Nonsense. PTWB Dec 2021 #61
Your post labeled "I only scratched the surface" iemanja Dec 2021 #63
If this doesn't work, I don't think anything will. PTWB Dec 2021 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author inthewind21 Dec 2021 #84
Its really hard to understand why you've been failing. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #66
Congratulations on being the second gunner in a Sandy Hook thread. AndyS Dec 2021 #67
You do you, boo. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #68
Dude. Chill. You're not helping anyone when you're like this, yourself included. Dial H For Hero Dec 2021 #69
You called voluntary gun buy backs a threat iemanja Dec 2021 #57
There are voluntary buybacks and mandatory buybacks. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #70
The more accurate term for "mandatory buyback" being "confiscation", mind you. Dial H For Hero Dec 2021 #72
No Hero, the more accurate term for mandatory buyback is AndyS Dec 2021 #74
Actually, both terms would apply. Dial H For Hero Dec 2021 #76
Eminent domain typically requires the ceased property to be used by government (eta: public use) SYFROYH Dec 2021 #77
To quote so many gunners, "Nonsense". AndyS Dec 2021 #78
Because you cited the US Constitution, I thought you might have remembered what you read. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #81
*sigh* This is so fucking tedious. AndyS Dec 2021 #82
Except its not a Sandy Hook Massacre thread -- its a thread about legislation since Sandy Hook. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #85
You ought to be careful calling others callus. PTWB Dec 2021 #86
It is difficult to have a rational discussion on this issue when one side consistently attacks Dial H For Hero Dec 2021 #89
I hadn't considered that, good point. Dial H For Hero Dec 2021 #80
That's how I see it, too. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #75
I don't see that your suggested starting points do anything but make life easier for Gunners. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #54
I only scratched the surface. PTWB Dec 2021 #55
OK, well that all sounds well and good. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #56
If it doesn't work, nothing will. PTWB Dec 2021 #62
Well said nt iemanja Dec 2021 #58
I think this is a particular problem far too many people deny exists. Torchlight Dec 2021 #60
Every year, I think what those kids could be doing today IzzaNuDay Dec 2021 #65
If Sandy Hook wasn't Emile Dec 2021 #73
Thank you for making your first post here on DU in this thread! Welcome to DU, Emile. CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2021 #79
Exactly. PTWB Dec 2021 #90
My right wing brother Bettie Dec 2021 #87

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
1. 6 year olds shot to ribbons in their classroom. And our leaders didn't care enough to do anything.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 02:26 PM
Dec 2021

That is when I know nothing would change, at least in my lifetime.

Americans are a violent, dangerous people. Who could care less if their children are shot to bits while at school.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
9. I know I can be given to hyperbole. But that is what the rest of the world thinks.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:18 PM
Dec 2021

And while not all Americans are killing each other, most of us just let it happen and don't do much about it.
Just like a large segment of Americans won't wear a mask, won't get vaxxed as we near 1 million dead.

I am so disgusted with my fellow citizens that I am going to stand by my comments.

electric_blue68

(15,788 posts)
15. Most Americans are not killing each other, but we have a gun happy
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:33 PM
Dec 2021

minority (the ones with weapons of war in particular) yapping about their "freedumbs". A smaller, and really terrifying minority that would do away with a fair amount of us - libruls, progressives, POC, smart women, etc.

And there are a lot of serious issues for us to deal with, elect people who'll take actions we want, etc. Plus sort of steps backwards when Repuglicans are in charge esp since Reagan.

electric_blue68

(15,788 posts)
32. 🤔 I wasn't as clear as I should have been...
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:21 PM
Dec 2021

Do more than 50% of Americans own guns? Honestly, idk.
If it's 40% - 45% that's a big minority!

You have your biggestv group of average hunters, sportspersons who have one to several. You have a far suburban, then fully rural person, or family where there may be just one solely for protection.

But then you have in addition the gun happy weapons of war people, and their "freedums". That's a smaller, maybe not as small as I think group. But even those might be more in a defensive posture.

Then within that group are th ones who'd consider actively, if not right out kill us if conditions were just right.

And the pure criminals who carry.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
22. Americans are like the Germans who did nothing about the death camps.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:02 PM
Dec 2021

We do nothing while school children are killed in their classrooms.

llmart

(15,850 posts)
21. I stand with you on your comments.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:59 PM
Dec 2021

What have our fellow citizens done in those nine years? I'm disgusted with them also.

spanone

(136,671 posts)
2. I share your outrage 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000....%
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 02:28 PM
Dec 2021

The NRA should be dismantled, destroyed, shamed.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
47. And Putin didn't spend a great deal of money to bring down the US.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:45 PM
Dec 2021

He is one of the richest men in the world, but this he bought cheap.

Russian military were brought in before the 2016 presidential election to run propaganda and play with the elections.
Russian bots to spew endless propaganda online.
Buy off key senators and congress members.
But off key media.
Buy off the NRA and other groups.

Russia's intelligence service working hard as well.

And the GOP gave him a lot of free assistance.

mrsadm

(1,198 posts)
18. The NRA...
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:42 PM
Dec 2021
The NRA should be dismantled, destroyed, shamed.


... and salt spread over them and all members.

11 Bravo

(23,962 posts)
6. I was sitting in my classroom at the time, (my students were at Music).
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:09 PM
Dec 2021

I received a news alert on my computer, and that's when I first learned of the tragedy.
I was 12 when JFK was assassinated, and Sandy Hook hit me harder than anything since that awful day in 1963.

Initech

(100,597 posts)
13. Also, fuck Alex Jones and Infowars to the highest of hells.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:20 PM
Dec 2021

He's partly responsible for this by harassing and belittling the victims of this tragedy, which only demoralized the true human cost of it, and encouraged copy cats. Really that fucking asshole should be in federal prison for crimes against humanity. Hopefully he will get his.

ShazzieB

(17,231 posts)
31. Yes.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:21 PM
Dec 2021

If I remember correctly, he wasn't just "one of the ones;" he was the MAIN one spreading that hoax conspiracy theory.

He's not just a pos. He's a particularly vile, evil, despicable pos.

Initech

(100,597 posts)
37. Yup, I knew he was a garbage person the first time I heard about him.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:28 PM
Dec 2021

And then this happened, and not only is he a garbage person, after what he did to that town he should be shot out of a cannon into the sun. No really, fuck that guy.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
14. Like Eisenhower made the Germans look at death camps, Americans should be made to look at the
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:22 PM
Dec 2021

dead school children.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
43. A backlash would confirm the self-centered, irresponsible stance of the populace.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:37 PM
Dec 2021

People are more concerned about their own feelings than the children who were killed.

The Germans were probably not too happy with Eisenhower either.

Leith

(7,838 posts)
17. It was that day when I realized
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:41 PM
Dec 2021

that rethugs were beyond redemption.

They offered "thoughts and prayers" (AKA abso-fucking-lutely nothing) for the victims. They refused to do a thing to alleviate the problems, pain, and suffering. The day it became impossible for me to imagine that they were doing but chuckling behind closed doors. Now they are openly laughing in our faces while children and other innocents die or are maimed forever. They enjoy it.

For any rethug lurker: prove me wrong.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
27. This is the day that I realized we are all to blame.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:11 PM
Dec 2021

What kind of a people stand by and do nothing when 6 years are shot to ribbons in their classrooms?
What kind of country allows this to happen over and over?

keithbvadu2

(38,006 posts)
19. Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don't Trump My Constitutional Rights' To Have Guns
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:52 PM
Dec 2021

NRA supporters would rather have dead children than gun control.

To the gun industry, dead children are merely collateral damage/acceptable losses for gun industry profits and political donations.

The NRA used to be for sportsmen, hunters and gun safety.

Now it has become an industry owned shill for the sale of more guns and the enrichment of its leaders.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html

Joe The Plumber: ‘Your Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Constitutional Rights’ To Have Guns

Ironic how he chose that verb back in 2014.

Irish_Dem

(52,715 posts)
28. What does this say about our national character?
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:13 PM
Dec 2021

How are we different from the Germans who ignored the Death Camps?
When we let our children get shot in cold blood in their classrooms. Over and over.

Kaleva

(36,948 posts)
35. Those Germans who fought against the Nazi regime were willing to pay a big price.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:22 PM
Dec 2021

We haven't reached that yet. Not even close.

maxsolomon

(33,882 posts)
29. There's nothing wrong with me. Or you.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:15 PM
Dec 2021

We are saddled with an ambiguous, anachronistic Amendment and disingenuous legislating around it. No Gunner Pols complain about the limits on full-automatic weapons, for instance, yet that is clearly an infringement on Arms that can be borne.

In contemporary America, it cannot be repealed, and there is no legislative will to interpret it differently. It will be generations before Militias are regulated well.

Until then, the carnage continues.

mahina

(18,192 posts)
33. We let donors have more say than voters
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:21 PM
Dec 2021

Until we get the supreme court right, check out represent.us.

Right now it really looks like our only hope to reclaim power for the people. It’s a state by state workaround a s is already going ahead in a lot of states.

Our right not to be killed and have our kids killed is being trampled and it’s insane. Unlike the Supreme Court decisions, we do have the power to change.

This vid is a little lighthearted but the work is serious.



 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
83. The supreme court
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:49 PM
Dec 2021

Was a republican wet dream for years. They made it no secret exactly what their plan was. Well, they have accomplished their goal and that dream has come true. I distinctly remember Obama talking about the importance of the supreme court. ALL of the courts. Tthe republicans blocked his nominees every step of the way. Merrick Garland ring a bell? Democrats threw up their hands and let it slide. Hillary warned over and over about the courts. But her emails! I just can't, I'm going to vote third Party or not at all. Now, all of a sudden, people are awake. Quite late to the party!

mahina

(18,192 posts)
88. It's been the main argument every election for me and mine to turn out
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 03:09 PM
Dec 2021

My Mom drilled that point home for decades.

Some folks are easily distracted by shiny things and sadly there are outside forces aligned with wealthy Americans fighting for the wingers to rob us.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
34. We're not going to pass gun control legislation unless we change our strategy.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:21 PM
Dec 2021

We were all outraged by what happened at Sandy Hook. That we were unable to pass any meaningful gun control legislation in its wake should be evidence enough that we need to change our strategy.

I am a gun owner but I'm also a parent and a functioning member of (what used to be) a civil society. Many of our gun laws are antiquated and ineffective. There are laws from prohibition times that needlessly burden gun owners without adding to the general safety of society.

Revamping the antiquated, ineffective, and burdensome gun laws, while replacing them with effective and modern gun control, is the only real chance we have at passing legislation. Meaningful gun control reform needs to work with, not against, gun owners.

The last decade should be a playbook of what not to do. Don't threaten gun buy backs, all out bans, registries, or anything else that will 1. not pass and 2. reduce the chance of passing anything else. And fix the messaging. The right wingers screamed that Obama was going to take their guns but Trump was responsible for more gun control in 4 years than Obama was in 8. Shout it from the tree tops.

I suggest approaching the gun control issue from an entirely different vantage point. There are numerous things that the gun community wants and would be willing to negotiate to obtain. These things include national reciprocity for concealed carry licenses, a revamp of the antiquated NFA registration system and modernizing what types of weapons must be registered. Some of the requirements are completely arbitrary.

I feel strongly that were we to offer up some real compromises that improved quality of life for gun owners, we'd be able to pass universal background checks and some national standards for gun purchasing / concealed carry licensing, and we'd be compromising on things that would have zero impact to public safety. Seems like a win / win, unless the objective is to make gun owners enemies and not allies.

If we want gun control we're going to have to compromise. Simple as that.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
38. FUCK GUN OWNERS!
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:28 PM
Dec 2021

I've been at this for 40 years and every time I tried to involve gun owners the answer was, "what's in it for me?"

I can say with total confidence that if anything is done about guns it will be done in spite of and to gun owners.

Compromise my ass. I've tried for for four decades to find a SINGLE compromise. There aren't any.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
40. I just told you compromises that would work.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:31 PM
Dec 2021

It seems to me you're more interested in insulting gun owners and less interested in meaningful gun control actually passing.

Keep ranting with the attitude of legislating "in spite of and to gun owners" and see how much gets passed. I'll bet it will be exactly the same as how much has gotten passed since Sandy Hook.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
42. FUCK GUN OWNERS!
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:36 PM
Dec 2021
I JUST TOLD YOU IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

YOUR IDEA OF COMPROMISE IS TO LET EVERYBODY HAVE FULL AUTO WEAPONS AND REPEAL WHAT LITTLE WE HAVE IN THE WAY OF RESTRICTIONS.

THAT'S NOT A COMPROMISE, THAT'S A CAPITUALTION.

I'VE BEEN AT THIS FOR FORTY YEARS AND I KNOW A LOAD OF BULLSHIT WHEN I SEE IT AND THIS IS A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.

YES, I'M SHOUTING.


Oh, and thanks for being the obligatory gunner trying put lipstick on a pig.
 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
44. Brother, you really don't know what you're talking about.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:38 PM
Dec 2021

You're just ranting now. You need to read the post you were replying to because apparently you skimmed (or skipped it entirely).

None of what you just said is true.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
48. I've read that post a dozen times.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:45 PM
Dec 2021

Everything I just said is true. Every time it's give gunners something to get something when gunners already have everything and want more.

No, it's time to just

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
49. Nonsense.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:48 PM
Dec 2021

You screamed: "YOUR IDEA OF COMPROMISE IS TO LET EVERYBODY HAVE FULL AUTO WEAPONS AND REPEAL WHAT LITTLE WE HAVE IN THE WAY OF RESTRICTIONS."

Since I neither suggested that we should let everyone have full autos or remove existing restrictions that are meaningful and effective, I'm not sure how you managed to get that after you, quote, "read that post a dozen times."

Instead of yelling with rage, try reading with quiet contemplation.

What you're doing isn't working. That's why you're understandably upset. The solution is not to continue doing what isn't working.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
50. Yes, and what we are doing is sucking up to gunners. Time to try
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:52 PM
Dec 2021

something different. Destroy the gun culture like the tobacco industry and drunk driving.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
51. Good luck.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:56 PM
Dec 2021

If you're ever interested in passing gun control, instead of fantasizing about things that will never pass, let me know.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
52. Thanks again for being the lone gunner to show up in a Sandy Hook
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 05:58 PM
Dec 2021

thread to tell us all that we need to compromise.

We need more people like you. It forwards my goal.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
53. Thanks for being the guy that would rather rage against gun owners...
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 06:06 PM
Dec 2021

than discuss how to pass actual, meaningful gun control and reform. I'm sure that the victims of the next Sandy Hook will take solace in your righteous indignation.

While you rage, I'll continue to advocate for meaningful gun control that can actually pass.

iemanja

(53,357 posts)
59. You haven't advocated for control
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:22 PM
Dec 2021

In your post above you advocate for increased proliferation through expanded concealed carry.

iemanja

(53,357 posts)
63. Your post labeled "I only scratched the surface"
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:37 PM
Dec 2021

was better. Some of your points seem valid. I just can't see the rabid 2A crowd going along with ANY restrictions. The NRA's mission is to promote gun proliferation in the hands of as many people as possible, especially those who are going to use them, like wife abusers, for example.

These are people who believe their guns matter more than the lives of their own children, and they have the courts wrapped around their little fingers.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
64. If this doesn't work, I don't think anything will.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:43 PM
Dec 2021

I’m fairly in touch with the 2A folks and I think these compromises represent our best chance of passing something meaningful. It can’t hurt to try.

Response to PTWB (Reply #64)

SYFROYH

(34,195 posts)
66. Its really hard to understand why you've been failing.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 11:23 PM
Dec 2021

Your diplomacy is on point.



The Sandy Hook massacre was a tragedy. But your strategy of waiting for the next big tragedy to scare people into more gun control is a failed strategy.

You could actually accomplish something that reduces gun violence if you listened to people like PTWB. Maybe thats not your goal - I've seen people who relish the fight more than making progress.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
67. Congratulations on being the second gunner in a Sandy Hook thread.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 11:46 PM
Dec 2021

And you're going to criticize my diplomacy?

iemanja

(53,357 posts)
57. You called voluntary gun buy backs a threat
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:15 PM
Dec 2021

That's absurd. I've tried negotiating with the gun people on DU. I learned after a while that they didn't act in good faith. They continually move the goal post. They aren't interested in compromise. They want mind control.

The NRA-type gun owners want to ensure they have enough weapons to destroy the world. Nothing less will satisfy them. They simply do not value human life and never will.

I didn't see anything in your post that amounts to gun control. You called for national reciprocity for concealed carry. Does that mean people should be able to carry guns everywhere because they have a permit in one state? That's not control. That's proliferation. Control control is supposed to limit the number of weapons and access to them, not make it easier for people to use their guns to resolve minor disputes, which is an epidemic now.

SYFROYH

(34,195 posts)
70. There are voluntary buybacks and mandatory buybacks.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 01:18 PM
Dec 2021

In the last few years, some politicians have expressed support for mandatory buy-back programs for some firearm types such as Stacey Abrams, Hillary Clinton, and Beto O'Rourke.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
74. No Hero, the more accurate term for mandatory buyback is
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 01:41 PM
Dec 2021

eminent domain.

It's right there in the Constitution.

Anyone who is sooooo steeped in the Constitution should know that.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
76. Actually, both terms would apply.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:24 PM
Dec 2021

It's conceivable that eminent domain could be used as a justification for confiscating firearms. Of course, the chances of this actually happening in our lifetime is so small as to not be of any concern. I'm not worried in the slightest that the government is going to take my firearms.

(And in any case, I've already sold off around 85% of them over the last ten years.)

It's "buyback" that's the nonsense term.

SYFROYH

(34,195 posts)
77. Eminent domain typically requires the ceased property to be used by government (eta: public use)
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:28 PM
Dec 2021

Show me where all guns in buyback programs were used to perform government activities -- or even most of them. I'm sure there has been the occasional sheriff who decided a turned-in Python would look good in his holster.

SYFROYH

(34,195 posts)
81. Because you cited the US Constitution, I thought you might have remembered what you read.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:37 PM
Dec 2021

I bolded and underlined the relevant parts.

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States_of_America_1992
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.




https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/eminent_domain

Eminent Domain
Overview:
Eminent domain refers to the power of the government to take private property and convert it into public use. The Fifth Amendment provides that the government may only exercise this power if they provide just compensation to the property owners.

Just Compensation Requirement:
In Kohl v. United States, 91 U.S. 367 (1875), the Supreme Court held that the government may seize property through the use of eminent domain, as long as it appropriates just compensation to the owner of the property. In Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corp. 458 US 419 (1982), the Supreme Court clarified that when the government engages in a taking and implements a permanent physical occupation of the property, it must provide the property owner with just compensation, even if the area is small and the government's use does not greatly affect the owner's economic interest.

Public Use Requirement:
In Kelo v. City of New London, Connecticut, 545 U.S. 469 (2005), the Supreme Court held that general benefits which a community would enjoy from the furthering of economic development is sufficient to qualify as a "public use."

Further Reading:
For more on eminent domain, see this Cornell Law Review article, this University of Michigan Law Review article, and this New York Law Journal article.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
82. *sigh* This is so fucking tedious.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:47 PM
Dec 2021

For public use? We could use them to outfit the entire military and every police force in the US and not make a dent in civilian supply. Beyond that they could be de-commissioned and used for training as in teaching gunners that gun ownership isn't covered by the first amendment re religious freedom.

'Public use' is a pretty fluid concept.

I still find it amazing that gunners are so callus that they don't realize how poor taste it is to promote gunning in a Sandy Hook thread.

SYFROYH

(34,195 posts)
85. Except its not a Sandy Hook Massacre thread -- its a thread about legislation since Sandy Hook.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:58 PM
Dec 2021

And that's how you made it in the OP.

And use public use is a broad concept, but it's not included in any buyback plans I've seen.




 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
86. You ought to be careful calling others callus.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 03:00 PM
Dec 2021

Your behavior in this thread comes off as callous opportunism at the expense of the aforementioned victims.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not doing that consciously because I think your heart is in the right place—you are outraged by the deaths of the victims at Sandy Hook—but you don’t get to belittle others who are trying to have a meaningful discussion.

You have lifelong Democratic gun owners in this thread bending over backwards to try to engage with you on how we can pass meaningful gun control but you’re just ranting and insulting them.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
89. It is difficult to have a rational discussion on this issue when one side consistently attacks
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 03:40 PM
Dec 2021

posters a personal basis. That they do so reflects poorly on their arguments.

maxsolomon

(33,882 posts)
54. I don't see that your suggested starting points do anything but make life easier for Gunners.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 07:28 PM
Dec 2021

National reciprocity for CC? That's a liberalization that does nothing to increase safety for non-gunners. It would increase the perception of danger, which isn't really where we want to go.

Revamp the NFA? Why? Would you liberalize registration of Full-Autos? Exempt musket-loaders?

Since IDGAF about the "Quality of Life" from Gun Owners, your quo doesn't have much persuasive quid. Guns have won the day, decisively; non-Gunners have little left to compromise on.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
55. I only scratched the surface.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 07:51 PM
Dec 2021

The OP began yelling and screaming in all caps bold, so I didn't feel like it would be worthwhile to go much deeper.

Revamp the NFA because it is ineffective and burdensome. I do not suggest liberalizing the registration of full autos, at all. But full autos aren't the only items on the NFA--the NFA also regulates short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, and sound suppressors (among others). There are arbitrary restrictions here that are essentially meaningless.

For example, you can purchase a short barrel AR-15 pistol with a brace that is essentially identical to a short barreled rifle but does not require registration. For all intents and purposes they're the same gun.

Another example is that you can purchase an AR-15 pistol and convert it into a rifle by adding a buttstock (assuming the barrel length is 16 inches or greater), but cannot purchase an AR-15 rifle and convert it into a pistol by removing the buttstock, even though in both configurations the firearm is identical in every way. The only difference is whether the box 'pistol' or 'rifle' was checked at the time of purchase.

These types of antiquated regulations do not enhance public safety and are simply annoying and burdensome to lawful gun owners. There is no reason to keep them so why not barter with them?

My proposal would be to add minimum standards (training, testing, background check, & set renewal periods) at the federal level for states to enact to grant concealed carry licenses to residents. Any state that meets or exceeds those minimum standards would then enjoy national reciprocity for such licenses. We do the same thing with driver's licenses. This accomplishes two things: it raises the bar to get a concealed carry license (which I have) and it protects licensed carriers in states that otherwise may not recognize their license.

Additionally, I'd mandate that every gun transfer is subject to a background check, whether that is through a dealer or private. We'd have to streamline this process for cases where a family member is inheriting a large number of firearms from a collector, for example, but it wouldn't be hard to do. This would eliminate the 'gun show loophole' and give us another effective tool to combat straw purchasing.

I’d also add a federal safe storage law mandating minimum standards for gun storage in and outside the home.

In exchange for the universal background checks and safe storage law, I'd suggest removing sound suppressors from the NFA and treating them like firearms--subject to the now universal background checks. I'd also suggest rewording much of the language in the NFA to remove the ambiguity (the ATF currently defines a shoestring as a machine gun, sometimes, for example) and clarify exactly what constitutes a pistol, a rifle, any other weapon, and modernize the entire registration process for NFA items so that these things don't take over a year to register.


I'd also change the $200 per NFA tax stamp to a one time $200 lifetime NFA license tax. The current tax disproportionately negatively impacts minorities and the impoverished.

While we are talking about background checks, I'd also add more red flags for violent misdemeanors and give folks who are subject to those red flags a streamlined and free-of-charge process to dispute those flags. We want the red flags to be effective and comprehensive without violating due process.

Some folks may balk at the delisting of suppressors from the NFA and of national concealed carry reciprocity, but I think they're reasonable bargaining chips and are worth trading for universal background checks and minimum standards for concealed carry. At the end of the day we'll have meaningful gun control and gun owners will be happier.

maxsolomon

(33,882 posts)
56. OK, well that all sounds well and good.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:12 PM
Dec 2021

I'm sorry, but I am skeptical any of it can happen in my lifetime, which has approximately 30 years remaining (if all goes well). Emotions are too high, the sides are uncompromising, and there are too many guns in too many incompetent hands.

Maybe some Gun Moderate like Tester could give it a try, IDK.



Torchlight

(3,776 posts)
60. I think this is a particular problem far too many people deny exists.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:28 PM
Dec 2021

And who would much rather sea-lion the topic.

A co-worker said off-hand that if we could address this as the GOP does abortion (not tackling the issue head-on, but rather the death-of-a-thousand-cuts), there could be substantive and measurable movement on it.

IzzaNuDay

(405 posts)
65. Every year, I think what those kids could be doing today
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 10:26 PM
Dec 2021

They could have been in high schools, deciding what classes to take. Giggling about the next dance, participating in activities, thinking about learners permits, going on field trips, and possibly looking long range to graduation and what they will do once they receive that diploma. They would have been taller, maybe past puberty, with changing bodies.

But HELL NO, this gun crazed NRA and the GQP thinks 2nd amendment mean a free for all gun use, for anyone who wants one. Now these little ones are little forever.

Emile

(25,642 posts)
73. If Sandy Hook wasn't
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 01:33 PM
Dec 2021

enough to enlighten lawmakers to pass some kind of gun legislation, nothing will. After all these years I still tear up when I see pictures of all the little kids lost at Sandy Hook!

CaliforniaPeggy

(150,674 posts)
79. Thank you for making your first post here on DU in this thread! Welcome to DU, Emile.
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 02:33 PM
Dec 2021

I understand your pessimism.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
90. Exactly.
Thu Dec 16, 2021, 01:16 PM
Dec 2021

We can’t force gun control through on raw emotion alone—if we could, we would have after Sandy Hook. We have to strategize and compromise until we get something better than we have now. It’s the only way.

Bettie

(16,522 posts)
87. My right wing brother
Wed Dec 15, 2021, 03:02 PM
Dec 2021

who is now a full-blown MAGAt, told me a few days after it happened that the deaths of a bunch of first graders is the price of 'freedom'.

We no longer speak and he is confused as to why that is.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»It's been nine years.