For those who still insist on defending Joe Manchin...

[jcmaine72]

...You know, the 4-d chess and "Look at the big picture" crowd...let's analyze how badly Manchin sabotaged our chances in the midterms next year, shall we?

In case you haven't noticed, things are pretty dire in the nation right now for many of our fellow citizens. Inflation is the highest its been in years, violent crime is plaguing many of our big cities and getting worse, and many sections of the nation are facing another possible covid lock down. People are scared and getting increasingly angry and frustrated over the current state of things. Like it or not, whether we believe it is fair or not, the political party that is in power always bears the brunt of people's fears and frustrations when things are as poorly (or perceived as such) as they are now.

President Biden's BBB was the best chance our Party had before next year's midterms to demonstrate unequivocally to the American people that extensive measures will be taken to ameliorate their hardships and allay their fears. Joe Manchin sabotaged that chance today.

Simply NOT being Donald Scump isn't going win us votes next year. We needed something tangible, constructive, and done on a large scale to show the American people we (D) are listening to them. That we care about more than just winning seats in Congress and jacking off our corporate overlords, like the reTHuglicans. That we are demonstratively better in every way than the alternative. That we (gasp) actually stand for something.

Joe Manchin robbed us of that opportunity today at a time when it was needed most. We can scream, howl and wag an admonishing finger in the faces of our fellow citizens all we want after we lose elections complaining that they are "voting against their best interests when they vote against us", but if we don't actually accomplish anything, we can't really blame them for not supporting us, now can we? Thanks, Joey M!

So with all that in mind, I have one last question for Manchin's advocates here...You know, the 4-d chess playing, Rommel-in-the-desert, Sun Tzu types who are always downplaying Manchin's naked duplicity with their "Larger strategy/ Big Picture" arguments:

Which party's election chances for both the midterms and the 2024 Presidential election did Joe Manchin (D) help exponentially today?

Thank you

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. They'll blame Susan Sarandon

[Celerity]

11. One immediately blamed Sanders, LOLOL

[ismnotwasm]

49. No, but she can go Fuck herself.

So can Manchin.
so can everyone who shit-talked Hillary Clinton.

[George II]

67. I've seen a lot of "they" and "us" around here lately.

[dem4decades]

2. Manchin will be exhibit A in the Republicans case D's can't get things done.

[JohnSJ]

20. You do realize that isn't the reality. Things have gotten done, in spite of what we were up against

[dem4decades]

33. It will be the attack ads, watch.

[leftstreet]

3. I don't see too many people defending him here

that will probably change though

[iemanja]

5. There are always some

who seem to think the mere presence of a D next to someone's name means they are divine. Except of course if it's the squad, then they trash them.

[leftstreet]

9. Well that's certainly true n/t

[iemanja]

10. the other way around is also true

To my mind, we should be able to criticize anyone we disagree with.

[Mr. Evil]

32. Not only that but,

we should criticize anyone that's actively doing grievous harm to the well-being of this country and its future. I don't give a flying fuck what letter comes after their name.

Our two party is obsolete and definitely has outlived its usefulness (if it ever really was useful). And I certainly don't want to hear that we have to tolerate Manchin because he's the only D that can win in WV. Bullshit! You can't tell me that we cannot find a candidate that isn't afraid to go town to town there and explain to all those people how they've been hoodwinked for decades. God, guns and keeping women from having abortions isn't going to put more food on their tables or more money in their bank accounts. That shitty attitude is why we lose elections that we could have a chance to win.

A great bill that will be paid for and the entire nation is cut off at the knees because of one colossal asshole. We should not have to live like this but, we will continue to do so until we get angry and demand to have what we already should.
And we sure as hell could use a healthy dose of ethics, integrity and honor.

[TexasTowelie]

57. I know that you don't want to hear it, but we did nominate a progressive to run for the US Senate

in 2020. That candidate, Paul Jean Swearingen, only received 27% of the vote in the general election. There is a lot to be learned from that defeat. Swearingen also lost to Manchin in the 2018 primary in a 70-30 split.

The only other Democratic politician in WV of any stature is retired Major Richard Ojeda (his videos are posted on DU occasionally). Despite his liberal background, Ojeda voted for Trump in 2016. It's difficult to ignore that red flag.

[JohnSJ]

25. no, but the reality is at this point in time, Manchin and Sinema give us the majority in the Senate,

and that is still better than mcconnell having it.

I have no doubt that most here realize that, and that most also realize that the only way to overcome the obstruction of Manchin and Sinema is to win the Senate by at least two seats, and maintain the majority in the House. The Senate of course is slightly more critical because of judicial nominations, but to get any substantial legislation done we need both houses.

and no one should assume that we will lose the House in the midterms. A lot of things can happen between now and November

[iemanja]

26. They caucus as Democrats

voting for the majority leader is the least they can do. It's not excuse for obstruction.

I wish we could add additional senators. It's going to be touch though, especially if Biden can't get his agenda through. And then there are voting rights.

[JohnSJ]

30. In spite of removing the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling, both Manchin and Sinema have made it

pretty clear they won't eliminate the filibuster for the voting rights legislation, and I would be shocked if they changed their views on that.

In spite of the voting impediments passed by some state legislatures, the only way we can overcome what we are going through is getting people out to vote, and do what ever is necessary to overcome the voting obstructions. It can be done, as long as we are united.

I also think there is a real chance that the information from House committee on the insurrection, and what is revealed, can change the whole dynamics of the midterms.

Most people are not paying attention to it right now, because of the season, but also because a lot of it has been behind closed doors. That will not happen in the first quarter of next year. Things will be revealed publicaly , and if they are significant it will make headlines.

[Budi]

52. You really want Sen Maj Leader McConnell instead of a Dem don't you. Just say it then

Cuz THAT's what we'd have.

No difference right? They're both the same, right?
"Nothing's better than something"!! Boy the genius of them all is right up there with blinding brilliance!.


Jfc.

[iemanja]

53. Where did I say I did?

Are you suggesting the mere act of my criticizing Manchin gives the GOP the Senate? If not, WTF are you talking about?

[Budi]

55. No more than the value of the Sen Majority is misconstrued somehow with approval of Manchin's BS.

He's a backstabbing ass.
But the slim Sen Majority is all we have to fix the stupidity & backstabbing of 2016.

[iemanja]

59. It's irrelevant to the conversation

So why bring it up?

[Budi]

60. Maybe irrlevant to your preferred convo. But not to the entire theme in this thread & the OP itself

It is all relevant.

[iemanja]

61. The same can be said for every Dem in the Senate

They all provide votes for the majority leader. The fact you always bring it up for Manchin and Sinema shows how little they offer the party.

[Budi]

63. This is redundant.

Later.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

77. We need Manchin in the party to be in position to vote for Breyer's replacement

Link to tweet

[LetMyPeopleVote]

74. I do not want MoscowMitch to be majority leader

Link to tweet

[iemanja]

78. Obviously

That doesn't mean we have to act like he's a king on DU. He deserves criticism.
I'm so tired of that lame excuse. If you support Manchin over the President and the rest of the Democratic caucus, have the guts to say so. But I'm bored to death with that same tired canard. Everyone but a few people here know he needs to stay in the party, and you know that.

[iemanja]

79. 94% of DUers who answered this poll want him to stay in the party

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16162856

Most of them are also critical of his recent behavior.

There is no need to keep repeating something the vast majority of DUers already agree on, as though it's some kind of revelation.

[LowerManhattanite]

7. They're all over the place.

Quiet for the first two or three hours after he backstabbed the party, but louder and louder since early this evening.

[Polybius]

15. Here's one from 1:49

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216161408

[LowerManhattanite]

19. Been noting that bent of late.

Have lost all respect after today’s shenanigans.

[iemanja]

22. I don't think that's the same as defending Manchin

More like unrealistically looking for solutions.

[Polybius]

23. Yeah, but he was making excuses for him in other posts today

Don't get me wrong, I love MM I'm just in disagreement with him on this.

[Diablo del sol]

29. Agree

I think heart is in right place and goal is looking for some solutions.

Some others are just over the top defensive. Ripping on AOC and progressives rather than doing the right thing and ripping on Manchin

Shout to out to Jedi, he or she apologized for defense of Manchin. Not needed but nice. Any comment today with any intent of working with Manchin should have been, he is an obnoxious piece of shit who is trying to undermine our party, but …….

[Polybius]

14. Two regulars did

One a man, one a woman.

[jcmaine72]

45. Check replies #34 & #37 down thread

#37 is of particular interest since the person is condescendingly implying that any condign criticism of Traitor Joe's inexcusable scumbagery is rooted in a lack of education.

[leftstreet]

47. Oh, well those aren't unexpected

consistent, but not really representative of DU overall

[applegrove]

4. We can run on the parts of BBB. And when Republican candidates claim

they want Pre-K too we can make an ad of them voting "Nay" on BBB.

[The Wizard]

6. Manchin is like McConnell

without the warmth and charm.

[jcmaine72]

41. Which really says it all about manchin

Mitch McConnell has all the warmth and charm of a bucket of rotting fish heads.

[MustLoveBeagles]

8. Good post

I can't argue against any of it. This is the last thing our party needed right now. Things weren't looking that great for us next year anyway and the Senator's actions made things even worse.

[jcmaine72]

39. Yes. Like the old saying goes....

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

[The Magistrate]

12. Manchin Has Put Himself Beyond The Pale, Sir

He may well stay a Democrat for the most basic of Majority manouvers, and continue voting for appointees, but that does not alter the fact that he is a liability, even a saboteur.

The only solution is more Senators, and if our voters do not comprehend Manchin's betrayal is a reason to vote for Democrats come hell or high water next year, they will be acceding to destruction of democracy here.

[JohnSJ]

18. yes, and most realized that was the case with a 50-50 Senate.

[Hoyt]

13. There is difference between advocating for Manchin and being resigned to situation.

[JohnSJ]

17. Exactly, and that is the difference between judicial appoints or not

[BlueCheeseAgain]

21. Yeah, I don't think any Democrat really defends Manchin...

So much as they know he's still better than anyone else we could get from West Virginia.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

24. This 👆

[ShazzieB]

27. Yes! ☝

[Cha]

64. ExFreakingZactly.

[Nixie]

35. It really is just this simple. It's amazing the lack of

reality-based thinking about red state politics and that attacking him from the left only bolsters him in his state, which he obviously plays to. It’s ridiculous.

[betsuni]

36. Yes. Nobody's "cheerleading" for Manchin, that's an anti-Democratic fantasy.

[alittlelark]

16. Narcisissts suck

Seriously.

They suck the life out of all that is good and healthy in our world,

[Fiendish Thingy]

28. The JM fan club says we should be grateful that Manchin has kept the senate out of Mitch's control

They feel that is enough, that we shouldn’t expect more than that.

[onenote]

56. I haven't seen that.

I've seen DUers criticizing Manchin for tanking BBB, but arguing against those that are arguing he should be immediately driven out of the party, consequences be damned.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

75. Why do you want MoscowMitch to be Senate Majority leader?

Link to tweet

[Bettie]

81. Meanwhile, the rest of us, just wish

he would have been honest about his intentions from the beginning.

It has become obvious that he was never actually negotiating. So he shouldn't have pretended he was.

He is a liar.

[58Sunliner]

31. Maybe people aren't what they seem.

[Busterscruggs]

34. Forgive me for asking

Because I'm still green here, but aren't we supposed to support the D no matter what? We're teetering on the edge of losing the senate and attacking Manchin seems like a recipe for failure. Hasn't he been a good Democrat other than this?

[Budi]

37. Agree 100%. Appears they really don't know the part about the benefit of a Majority

Wow. They really don't know!.

It's not just Manchin if this is the case. We are screwed by flat out lack of education.
Jfc

[jcmaine72]

38. Majorities mean fuck all without loyalty and unity.

Last edited Mon Dec 20, 2021, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

And Joe Manchin lacks both.

Education complete.

[Budi]

40. Lol. Not quite. What would Maj Leader McConnell be doing right now?

That's the education.

[jcmaine72]

43. Staying loyal to his party and not damaging its election chances

Unlike the loathsome, backstabbing scumbag you feel compelled to defend. Manchin is a traitor who sabotaged his own party. Why squat in front of that man's gloryhole, of all places?

At any rate, the damage couldn't have been any worse with a reThug majority. A majority that doesn't act like one isn't worth a desiccated rat turd, and neither is Manchin.

[Budi]

44. We would have McConnell without our scant majority.

Of there'd be no difference, right?

and a 🙄

[jcmaine72]

46. Tell me....

What good was that majority yesterday?

The man you're defending betrayed his own party. Is that the kind of majority you want? Do actual results count for anything, or is it all just one big cock measuring exercise?

[Budi]

48. What good was it the day the Senate voted for BIF?

How much of Biden's accomplishments would have seen the light of day had McConnell been Sen Maj Leader?

President Biden’s remarkable record of accomplishment under nearly impossible circumstances
https://ncpolicywatch.com/2021/11/09/president-bidens-remarkable-record-of-accomplishment-under-nearly-impossible-circumstances/

How many of Biden's appointed Judges, Ambassadors, Cabinet members, etc would have been held up by Maj Leader McConnell?
Not to mention the seating of Senate Committees, now led by Democrats.

That value of our scant Dem majority is about far more than one day.

Our Dem Majority Leader Schumer will began again in Jan. McConnell would have thrown it in the dead file.

That's the education.

[Budi]

51. And you'd really prefer to have McConnell as the Senate Maj Leader?

You missed the whole point.

Thats the education.

[bluestarone]

54. EXACTLY

Why can't SOME people here see THAT!

[LetMyPeopleVote]

76. Confirming judges is very important

Link to tweet

[Cuthbert Allgood]

42. What has he done for Biden?

He voted to not shut down the government. One cabinet position came down to one vote--all the others were just fine without him.

So, how much has he done? And how much harm has he done? A simple cost benefit analysis says that he is a problem.

[onenote]

58. Kamala Harris has voted to break more 50-50 ties than any VP since the 19th Century

That suggests Manchin's votes have mattered more than you suggest.

Plus, without Manchin, every committee would have been under control of the Republicans and most of Biden's nominations would never have made it to the floor given the membership of the Judiciary Committee.

Apparently, its necessary for me to state (again) that Manchin totally screwed us on BBB and that pointing out his value in terms of not having McConnell running the Senate (and Republicans running every Senate committee) is not excusing how he screwed us or otherwise being a "fan" of Manchin.

[Hortensis]

62. Fwiw, I defend Democrats, representative government

and the democratic process. They're all under attack from people across the ideological spectrum (as well as completely apolitical), who are united by much of the same motivations and frustrated ignorance. We've gotten acquainted with 2016's LW socioeconomic populism and RW authoritarian populist movements that brought us trumpism. They're scary alike in some ways but still have some significant differences, while "anti-establishment populism" is in its own class of alikeness. And of harnessability.

Anyone who nods along with angry complaints directed at "the establishment" should take a look below, for instance, and get a notion of just what kind of people make up the extremely diverse crowd who're nodding along these days. And more. This article has a psychological focus on conspiracist subgroups, but others discuss the increasing growth of many anti-establishment populist movements into negative forces "unencumbered by ideological restraints."

Our dangerous era's spiritus mundi. In the 1990s democracies were forming around the world. Now the reverse, so that wherever government of, by and for the people is in danger of being snuffed out, this phenomenon is being identified -- and weaponized.

“American politics seems to be different than in previous decades and we wanted to know why. ... we were not convinced that our current problems are the fault of people becoming too ideological or too partisan. ... In particular people’s general orientation toward the established political order was being overlooked.

...Many people have antagonisms toward the political system writ large and this has been vastly understudied. It may not be the case that populism is new in the United States; it may instead be the case that in recent years, more politicians are willing to use populist anti-system rhetoric to build coalitions ...

Especially with the ascendance of Donald Trump, we witnessed a blending of left-right political concerns with antagonistic orientations toward the political establishment.

Some of what we mistake for partisan rancor is really a blend of political identities –– attachments to a particular group or side –– with a deep-seated antagonism toward and disillusionment with the established political order.

What’s new is mainstream politicians intentionally activating and inflaming anti-establishment orientations, effectively blending these once unrelated dimensions.

https://www.psypost.org/2021/10/scientists-uncover-a-psychological-factor-that-explains-support-for-qanon-better-than-political-ideology-61971

The positive way to look at this is that vast gulf we imagine between Democratic and Republican voters is partial and differences in ideology not the biggest problem after all. That is the many tens of millions united across the spectrum by growing antagonism to "the establishment." Whose? Which one? Whichever. All. But of course, in the U.S. these days the common target is Democrats and the democracy we're fighting to save.

[Hekate]

65. I don't see anyone "defending Joe Manchin," okay? I see a LOT of people acknowledging we are stuck

…with him as the 50th vote on the D side of the aisle. Okay? The man’s a bastard, but for the time being he is our bastard. He stinks, but without him at least nominally on our side, what to we have? Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

Thank you for your kind attention.

[iemanja]

71. They defend him alright

beyond the 50th vote.

[George II]

66. Do you know of any other Democrat, ANY other, in West Virginia who could win a Senate Seat?

[DemocraticPatriot]

80. I don't know of any Democrat, including Joe Manchin,

who will win Joe Manchin's seat in 2024...

He is toast.

[lapucelle]

68. Joe Manchin did not help any party's chances "exponentially" yesterday. You're welcome. N/T

[iemanja]

69. Hum

https://democraticunderground.com/100216166691

[lapucelle]

72. Wow...Trump is still president, Senator Sanders votes with Republicans 23% of the time,

and Representative Ocasio-Cortez votes with Republicans 18% of the time according to your link. Who knew?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to more recent data (December 15, 2021), Manchin votes with Democrats 97% of the time, Sanders votes with Democrats 92% of the time, and Ocasio-Cortez votes with Democrats 91% of the time.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/joe-manchin/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/bernard-sanders/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-congress-votes/alexandria-ocasio-cortez/

[iemanja]

70. They are out in force

Suggesting that the mere criticism of Manchin is akin to pushing him to the GOP, when that isn't even the question.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

73. We need Manchin for judges

Link to tweet

[myohmy2]

82. you...

...speak the truth, my friend...

...and I see the shadow of a mccarthy and turtle rejoicing next November...

...guaranteed...