General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWant to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right to a head sooner rather than later.
I worry about what will happen inside this country if Donald Trump ever faces criminal charges, federal criminal charges even more so. I watched with increasing concern in recent years as far right militia types became ever more brazen in their public struttings and pronouncements. When Bundy and his followers seized federal property at gun point, and then were not dislodged immediately, I found that standoff to be alarming. As the far right continues to gain a stronger footing in Republican controlled legislatures around the nation I take the possibility of secessionist type threats seriously. I expect right wing sheriffs in rural areas to increasingly go wingnut, using their inflated sense of "legal authority" to deputize vigilante mobs opposing federal authority. All of this will explode on steroids, I fear, if and when Donald Trump goes on trial.
But the pressure that explosion will release has been building steadily for a decade at least. The NRA long ago became a front for militias, and militias long ago became a front for white supremacists who actively are seeking civil war. They are organizing at an accelerating rate. They are getting stronger with the passage of time, particularly when the passage of time shows there to be little to no direct overt effort being made to shut them down cold. They are encouraged by any lull before the storm, as that lull gives them to time and space they need to further radicalize more followers to their "cause."
I figure their timeline calls for "right wing revolution" timed with the results of the 2024 presidential elections. A presidential campaign, especially one with Trump at the head of the Republican ticket, creates the ultimate explosive conditions that they seek. Donald Trump facing criminal charges before then would force their hand to quicker action under less than their ideal circumstances. May it be so.
samsingh
(17,598 posts)TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)I would rather fight them now then wait for them to steal 2024.
ck4829
(35,076 posts)Woodswalker
(549 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)I support using legal constitutional means to hold the far right fully accountable for their efforts to undermine democracy. I simply anticipate that they will not back down peacefully when that occurs. I hope I am wrong about that, but if I am not then I believe legitimate civil society, and those tasked with maintaining justice law and order inside of our Republic, will be best positioned to prevail against those who would ferment violence and secession, if they are fully countered (through lawful means) sooner rather than later. I think that would greatly reduce potential violent incidents in our nation.
certainot
(9,090 posts)RW radio. we don't even poll for it.
they use those stations to coordinate and fire up that extremist base. a lot of the real wackos ended up at jan 6. the Q-anon thing is based on 10 months of rw radio attacks on the 'liberal deep state', amped up with social media for abuse victims and a younger crowd.
the easiest and most effective way to derail the fascist right is to go on offense vs rw radio, which is very vulnerable now with limbaugh rotting. AI makes it easy and cheap to monitor, expose, and discredit rw radio, and very easy to boycott and expose advertisers.
then there are 87+ universities that can be protested for supporting 260 stations that have been feeding this radicalism with lies for 30 years. when they start pulling sports broadcasts the ad industry will force the breakup of the monopoly.
there's a fair bit of evidence russia has been using rw radio here, and around the world. here since at least 2008, mostly through limbaugh. we need investigations into that to expose russian manipulation of rw radio, to discredit it and their leaders who have been parroting limbaugh and sons.
destroying rw radio will go a long way to turning this around.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and hoping that the threat from RW radio is taken seriously enough to be stopped.
Artistree22
(40 posts)Thank you certainot for your persistence with this issue. (a lonely voice in the wind sometimes) You have been spot on- the anger, fear and divisiveness that those stations fueled have done so much damage.
How do we elevate this issue beyond DU? I have seen your comments ignored over the years yet commentators are saying "what can we do?" We have seen our power as consumers and boycotts work.
Maybe this would be an area that Democratic celebs could bring awareness??
(Following the money would certainly show some the ex-resident's puppet master's involvement. I'm not a betting person but I would bet on that.)
But
Do you think it is too late for those who have been listening to RW radio for all of this time? Are they gaining listeners? If the programming changed, these folks will just change the dial. They have been conditioned to think this way and the rural tribalism mostly supports this way of thinking.
I think we have to focus on the disengaged Americans and young people who aren't voting and they aren't listening to the radio or see it's influence.
Tik Tok-(pun intended) Tik Tok- you young folks- this is your future we are trying to save. At least- get your universities to stop airing their games on RW radio.
Love n peace
certainot
(9,090 posts)a of the effect is secondary and tertiary, reaching apathetic and too-busy americans through friends and family and coworkers. then they vote stupidly when they go to the booth. like hillary's emails etc.
most of that rw radio effect would dissolve quickly if dems would just stop ignoring it. but media is full of analysts who have no clue what rw radio is. the two political experts on PBS judy woodruff show tonight agreed that republicans are living in an alternate reality but they have no clue why or how. facebook and the internet can't create the widespread alternate realities that gave us trump.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)hoping that somehow they can wake up to this and do something at long long last.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)We're 40 years behind the 8-ball. The right has more successfully defined our side than we have. Tax & spend democrats. Weak on borders democrats. Socialists. Commies. Baby killers. And our side? Crickets.
George Lakoff was right when he stated in his book "Moral Politics," that dems think it's good enough to point to our platform page & say, "This is what we stand for." It isn't. You have to toot your own horn or people will never know what you're about. We don't do messaging. We don't even try. And it's killing us.
certainot
(9,090 posts)the volume and monopoly dominance advantage they have other than by reducing it.
they sit around in their think tanks looking for messaging success from dems, yawn, come up with a lie, slogan, or meme to distort or 'refute' it and then pump it out of 1500 radio stations, or just the ones in georgia or florida, etc, for free for as long as it takes.
how could we not 'message' global warming right? it's the same with protest movements - millions in the streets and all they do is lie about the motives and aims (abolishing police, 'critical race theory', kneeling athletes are unamerican, etc) and then yell it loud for as long as it take and it's all free and supported by at least 87 universities, a lot of pro sports teams, and 1000s of advertisers that probably hate tfg as much as we do
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)We ignored hate radio for too long & now it's morphed into a huge right wing media machine. Any messaging we put out now is drown out by the right. They've been playing the long game & they're playing for keeps. Our side seems slow to acknowledge the threat that's right in front of us. I still can't believe Dianne Feinstein doesn't think democracy's in danger. Seriously? Wake the fuck up, Senator.
McKim
(2,412 posts)An excellent post. This is the way to head off a Civil War! We should have had our own radio stations for decades now. Boycotting the advertisers is a big thing to coordinate but it is going to be very effective.
ShazamIam
(2,571 posts)loving sites like facebook, youtube and twitter and why Dorsey was removed as CEO.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)We don't have the years that they took for Watergate. We have less than one year. Their base is fired up & ready to vote. And ours? Not so much, IMO. And now we have a slew of voter suppression laws against us, too.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)I get the sense that most folks don't have it in them to put a bullet in the head of Magahat or be an accessory to such an action. I don't.
WestIndianArchie
(386 posts)lol.
The solution to the problems these assholes are causing is pretty simple. Round them up and imprison them for life. The government already knows who these degenerates are.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)Or are you going to stand on the sidelines while others do so?
I think the plan was pretty clear. ?????
intelpug
(88 posts)Yea, well the last I heard they still haven't identified all the january 6 participants exept those identifiable on camera or who openly bragged about it. As far as nationwide goes as long as they haven't committed any outward criminal acts then I doubt the government is doing anything towards keeping track since that would entail keeping dossiers on private citizens first amendment activities which is I believe illegal, even if they happen to be Trump supporters
WestIndianArchie
(386 posts)Are you serious? 😆
Runningdawg
(4,516 posts)And a lot of them didn't want to pick a side. Neither did some during WWII or other wars.
We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must - at that moment - become the center of the universe. Elie Wiesel
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)... democracy if they got a good view of what MAGA brings.
See Texas for example, the lead pols in that state can pimp slap infants in public cause its a dictatorship with the lowest voter access in the union
TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)Lots of "Good Germans" that will stay quiet even after the ashes start falling from the sky.
David__77
(23,396 posts)People in the street - many of them - can be important. They can serve to protect others and raise the stakes.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)Although, being related one way or another to many in town, I'd probably be left alone and just be ignored.
YP_Yooper
(291 posts)it's been a while, but wasn't it something like 85% of the country didn't do much of anything during the revolutionary war? I mean, aside from getting picnick baskets, climbing to the rooftops to watch the battles?
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)Dan
(3,562 posts)Dead from the Right, Dead from the Left, Dead either way.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)Most do what they must to survive.
About 10% of Northerners served during the American Civil War and many of those who did serve were drafted.
Dan
(3,562 posts)People who just want to survive the conflict and don't really care who wins as long as peace and stability return.
Syria is an example.
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)Kaleva
(36,299 posts)The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I agree.
3Hotdogs
(12,376 posts)First traitors would be the sheriffs and police that will not enforce mask and vaccine laws. First victims will be red state election officials and maybe legislators.
From there, I don't know. A couple of thousand cars driving along Rt 80 from Wyoming to N.J. would be easily stopped. Just stop the delivery of fuel to the local gas stations.
What do you think a civil war will look like. I believe it is going to happen.
YP_Yooper
(291 posts)It's not anything like the Civil War v1. What we have today is like coastal v interior. Rural v Urban.
There are no clear lines like there was back then.
California is as blue as blue overall, but there are millions of red repubs living there. Same with Washington and Oregon. Urban doesn't have a chance without food from rural. Rural doesn't have a chance without power and tech, and well, everything needed today.
So, what I'm saying is maybe less like what we think as our US Civil War, and more like the Bosnian War where everyone not in your little group from one neighborhood to another is an enemy?
Nasruddin
(754 posts)People in rural areas, in general, don't grow their own food either.
Even in CA's Central Valley, which grows everything, areas are specialized and so are the farms.
GoodRaisin
(8,922 posts)RW gun humpers marching through suburban neighborhoods shooting at known liberals?
RFCalifornia
(440 posts)We appear to be making that mistake again
Dan
(3,562 posts)RFCalifornia
(440 posts)Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)
traitorsgalore This message was self-deleted by its author.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)I can understand the impulse that some might have to not stir up a hornet's nest charging Trump and members of his inner circle. But to leave that nest undisturbed now is to facilitate the proliferation of more hornets and a much larger and even angrier swarm later. And by later I don't mean very much later - January 2025 at the latest. Don't put off to tomorrow what should have been done yesterday.
David__77
(23,396 posts)Even if the legal outcome is not desirable. By drawn out, I mean years.
cab67
(2,993 posts)You might be right. But if it goes on too long, people might lose interest. That wouldn't be favorable.
KS Toronado
(17,235 posts)I don't believe he'll be in a position to run again. Until then he'll still want his followers to believe he'll
somehow M.A.G.A. with another term in office so they'll keep donating to him.
Mordred
(154 posts)I believe America was always headed on the path of a likely regional fracturing which could largely be bloodless. The increasing rural/urban divide and the outsized minority rural power over the country seems to make this inevitable.
I believe Trump accelerated the timetable of a fracture and the Supreme Court could precipitate things via controversial rulings leading to states declaring a decision illegitimate. All this could lead to limited scale conflicts but a settling into a new status quo of several smaller nation states.
Martin Eden
(12,867 posts)To overrule voter suppression laws and state attempts to overturn results by submitting Electors for the loser.
THAT is how they plan to steal the 2024 presidential election; not through violent insurrection, but by corrupting the process.
Once Trump or some other fascist Rethug like DeSantis takes power, our democracy is on its deathbed.
RW militias will continue to be a domestic terrorist threat no matter what. I don't doubt violence would follow conviction and incarceration of Trump, but I don't foresee secession or an actual civil war.
The actual coup will be from within through ostensibly legal means.
pecosbob
(7,538 posts)If passed by whatever procedural means I expect it will be challenged tooth and nail.
cab67
(2,993 posts)...was reactive, at least in part.
Right-wing gun people still talk about the 1992 Ruby Ridge incident and Branch Davidian standoff. Too many people seem to have taken the wrong lesson from them - that the feds would act like the minions of a tyrannical dictator if you tried to protect your rights. Federal agencies have been much less willing to show force in such situations ever since, especially in the Mountain West. It was an matter of image-management, however badly it's backfired.
Moreover, a lot of people showed up with guns at the Bundy standoffs in Nevada and Oregon. They might have worried for a repeat of how the Branch Davidian standoff began - with a lot of people in fortified positions firing on federal agents. A lot of people would have been killed, including federal agents. As far as I'm concerned, that would all have been on the Bundys - but unfortunately, not everyone would have seen it that way.
I'm not defending the kid-gloves treatment they got. Just trying to put some context around the decisions. Personally, I thought the feds should have been a lot more assertive when the Bundists took control of Malheur NWR.
An even bigger problem is the jury nullification we witnessed when the Bundys were taken to trial. They all walked.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)thinking about a nice, mediated, two state solution. My biggest problem is what to do with the fact that one of the new states is divided in half by thousands of miles of the other state. I have no desire to move to the west coast, and I'm sure they don't want to move here. You could split the country latitudinally, making SoCal move north, but what North Dakotian wants to move that far south? Maybe some flexibility about borders, no straight lines.
Dan
(3,562 posts)The Right Wing, GOP is like a virus - that infects everyone that comes close to it.
BusterMove
(11,996 posts)Do we see them taking on the US military?
🍿
Or - Can you have a civil war if only one side shows up?
TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)YP_Yooper
(291 posts)1) The US military, by all recent reporting, is split politically.
2) How many military personnel will fire upon their own countrymen?
And lastly, what any military historian would recognize as an example:
Afghanistan, by any measure a 3rd world, undeveloped country, has thrown off the Mongol hordes, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the greatest military the earth has seen with the US. Rumor has it Japans Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." To the military, it's a mission. To the people, it's their home.
Anyone thinking the US military is going to offensively control the ground with so many weapons from people defending their home is a fool.
I say this for both sides, not offering some glamorous image of the right.
BusterMove
(11,996 posts)YP_Yooper
(291 posts)unless you can find the easy pickings - like the MAGA hats or Trump 2024 signs in their windows and yards
Apologies for being flippant, but it's hard to see why someone would shoot another for what? mask policy? Will a Trumper aim a gun at you for getting a vacc? I mean, in a country of 320 million, you can always find exceptions, but locally, I'm not sure there will be a general Bosnia-type civil war or gun-slinging stand-off.
Politicians throwing shoes at one another like in South Korea, yeah, surprised it didn't happen already, but a shooting war is hard to see.
BusterMove
(11,996 posts)TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)Some Trumpers have shot at people because of masks. And if they could get away with it without fear of criminal prosecution, I bet a lot more would. (At least until the fear of being shot stopped the mask-wearing).
Response to BusterMove (Reply #22)
inthewind21 This message was self-deleted by its author.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)assuming the US Military would step up and defend the country. A huge problem we currently have is the infiltration of the Military and the police with right wing nut jobs. And there appears to be no effort underway to correct that problem. Look how many police and military were involved with storming the capital on 01/06.
Mr.Bill
(24,289 posts)The NRA is not a political organization so much as they are a financial organization. Tell them you are a Democrat and send them money. See if they send it back. They would take money from Planned Parenthood if they offered it. They are lobbyists for gun manufacturers, and likely a conduit for dark money paid to politicians.
As far as what Trump can do as a candidate nearing election vs what he can do now, I think he would have a better chance winning in 2024 if he was sitting in prison than if he were free. It would energize his small base to the point of violence. So I don't know what we should do as far as the timing of going after him. That's in Garland's hands.
But excellent OP and you raise a lot of good points.
Dan
(3,562 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,289 posts)But it will be interesting to see what happens if a convict gets elected president. It has, of course, never happened before.
Dan
(3,562 posts)#1. Is he still entitled to Secret Service protection?
If not, then it would be just a matter of time until his big mouth overloads his ass.
Someone will want to become famous for offfing him.
He has pissed off a log of people that are not his base, it would be just a matter of time until someone slices and dices him.
And, finally, he hasnt paid the Russians back - between that and our own government figuring that he is less trouble dead, why not.
Mr.Bill
(24,289 posts)The big question would be how much access he would have to communication, other government officials and the internet.
YP_Yooper
(291 posts)Trump blazed the path to tyranny, beware those who now have a clear view of the throne.
Joinfortmill
(14,419 posts)Silent3
(15,212 posts)...allay my anger that more hasn't been done sooner. Time is precious here, and no matter what the DoJ does next, they have already frittered away too much time without going directly after the instigators of the insurrection.
We can only hope we haven't already missed the opportunities we need.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)But I think violent flashpoints will increasingly happen, the question is to what extent will they be fermented, aided, and abetted by elected officials intentionally striking defiant stances to rile up their core supporters? That can lead to an unraveling of our constitutional republic if some elected leaders openly refuse to accept laws that they disagree with. Think of George Wallace blocking the school house doors on a mega level. Think of units of a State's National Guard refusing to enforce federal laws and mandates, with the backing of that State's quasi rebellious Governor. If constitutional order isn't reestablished soon, I think that is where we are heading, and what would happen after that, in that kind of seething void, is anyone's guess.
LiberatedUSA
(1,666 posts)McKim
(2,412 posts)Yes, where is the business sector on this issue? The stock market hates instability and so does business. Why aren't they stabilizing the country and standing up to these crazies?
intelpug
(88 posts)I think your quite right and as far as it go's mostly these internet boards is where one finds most of this civil war bullshit tossed around and damn little anywhere else in the real world
Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
soldierant
(6,866 posts)But in what way or ways it can be nest used is not, to me, as obvious as all that.
Mass arrests of high profile leaders just before the 2022 primaries could be effective - espscially if some were of Trumpian Congresspeole who were expecting to win those primaries. The same can be said (although I'd hate to wait that long) of just befoe the 2024 RNC.
DEfinitely surprise should be a factor in planing timing.
I'm not cognizant of what is happening among justice professionals (nor should I be). But they are professionals, and I suspect timing has occurred to them.
intelpug
(88 posts)Mass arrest of high profile leaders just before the 2022 primaries ? Now... that.... sounds like the move of a truly tyrannical dictatoral government to me!
soldierant
(6,866 posts)kentuck
(111,094 posts)Attempting to "compromise" will only make it worse. Take a stand now.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)Ruin them!
Lincoln was shot but Lee and Davis lived long lives. The south celebrated the Civil war for 150 years. We are just now taking down their statues and ending the celebration. Appeasement does not work. These un-American scum must pay for their treason. Spare the rod spoil the child!!!!
flying_wahini
(6,594 posts)If those radio shows were snuffed out and/or replaced with good information
and stopped broadcasting CRAP it would give the regular listeners a chance to reconsider
their trumpian ideas that got us into this mess in the first place. They have been spoon fed
for 2 decades (or more) the story line about how Bad all Democrats Presidencys are.
Start with Faux news. I know they arent licensed by the FCC but why the hell arent they?
If you dont change their minds you wont change their hearts. ( I know that is a bigger job than
it sounds.)Stop providing shelter for these Limpball types and take them to jail for treason and
Insurrection. The FCC could pull a few licenses but they dont have teeth.
Stop supporting University programs that preach insurrection.
Isnt Alex Jones still on the air?
Hitler could have been stopped if the brown shirts were rounded up and jailed early.
Thats where we are now. They get bad information and run with it.
If the laws dont provide shelter for the real truth I guess we will have to wait on our neighbors to go marching in the streets with their guns.
TeamProg
(6,130 posts)Still, I'm guessing TFG's conviction will come long before 2024's GOP nomination.
Oneironaut
(5,494 posts)No one is going to run out and start shooting people. Trumps legal efforts failed miserably, and there is no current organized armed right wing militia (100 meth-addicts playing soldier in the backwoods of Georgia dont count).
The current trend is worrisome. However, be prepared to protest. I think the concept of a civil war is laughable right now. You would literally need states to start seceding, or a breakaway organization to raise an army capable of capturing anything.
The Trumpy, I got my guns n Im ready! crowd is engaged in an extremely cringey Red Dawn LARP. Theyre not going to shoot anyone, and the 0.001% that actually would wouldnt make it past the police. Theyre generally untrained, have only fired guns at a firing range, and live on a steady diet of Butterfingers and spoonfed outrage from Faux Noise.
PS- People are gonna start shooting each other when they cant even get off their arses to protest? Protest first for heavens sake, rather than living violent revenge fantasies against right-wing blowhards. There is so little chance of this happening that its still in the realm of absurdity.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)There will not be anything remotely approaching wide spread warfare under the worst of possible scenarios. There may be some armed skirmishes however involving different groups defending their concepts of legitimate rights, and also increased incidents of domestic terrorism, some potentially on the scale of the Oklahoma City bombing. Most likely would be attempts by organized groups in very conservative rural dominated red States to assert their right to "nullify" what they see as illegitimate federal authority and dictates. Some in western states, for example, could refuse to recognize federal ownership of large swaths of public lands which they might choose to "repurpose " In some instances right wing legislatures and government officials in States like Idaho could back them in such claims. When I say that time emboldens the extremists, that is what I mean. Ted Cruz now talks about Secession. Yes it is just talk, but U.S. Senators didn't talk that way four years ago.
P.S. My reference to literal "Civil War" was in response to increasing media speculation along those lines. My point was that whatever one's level of fear over how badly our society may be heading toward fracturing, the surest way to head that off is to confront those pushing radical narratives now with the full power of the law where applicable.
minstrel76
(83 posts)Pandora's box has already been open for a long time and I don't know if it would make much difference.