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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:27 PM Jan 2022

Want to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right to a head sooner rather than later.

I worry about what will happen inside this country if Donald Trump ever faces criminal charges, federal criminal charges even more so. I watched with increasing concern in recent years as far right militia types became ever more brazen in their public struttings and pronouncements. When Bundy and his followers seized federal property at gun point, and then were not dislodged immediately, I found that standoff to be alarming. As the far right continues to gain a stronger footing in Republican controlled legislatures around the nation I take the possibility of secessionist type threats seriously. I expect right wing sheriffs in rural areas to increasingly go wingnut, using their inflated sense of "legal authority" to deputize vigilante mobs opposing federal authority. All of this will explode on steroids, I fear, if and when Donald Trump goes on trial.

But the pressure that explosion will release has been building steadily for a decade at least. The NRA long ago became a front for militias, and militias long ago became a front for white supremacists who actively are seeking civil war. They are organizing at an accelerating rate. They are getting stronger with the passage of time, particularly when the passage of time shows there to be little to no direct overt effort being made to shut them down cold. They are encouraged by any lull before the storm, as that lull gives them to time and space they need to further radicalize more followers to their "cause."

I figure their timeline calls for "right wing revolution" timed with the results of the 2024 presidential elections. A presidential campaign, especially one with Trump at the head of the Republican ticket, creates the ultimate explosive conditions that they seek. Donald Trump facing criminal charges before then would force their hand to quicker action under less than their ideal circumstances. May it be so.

86 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Want to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right to a head sooner rather than later. (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 OP
Agreed. Prosecute the alleged criminals so they will not try to destroy AMerica again. samsingh Jan 2022 #1
I hate to say that I agree TheRealNorth Jan 2022 #2
For now, they are only brave when shooting people in the back. ck4829 Jan 2022 #3
They'll probably remove your thread Woodswalker Jan 2022 #4
I am not supporting armed conflict against the right. Far from it. Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 #5
their strength is vastly overestimated and tied closely to Dem and progressive ignorance of certainot Jan 2022 #25
Absolutely crucial Tumbulu Jan 2022 #58
Exactly. Artistree22 Jan 2022 #61
i think the biggest influence of rw radio is the massive well-coordinated buzz it generates but certainot Jan 2022 #68
Thank you- this is exactly the problem Tumbulu Jan 2022 #69
We need a marketing department--stat! CrispyQ Jan 2022 #74
but lakoff and the branding experts always talk stye and content, and there's no way to beat certainot Jan 2022 #76
I totally agree with you. CrispyQ Jan 2022 #77
An Excellent Post McKim Jan 2022 #71
Yes, most of this so called Trump support is paid for and amplified by friendly authoritarian ShazamIam Jan 2022 #78
I totally agree. CrispyQ Jan 2022 #6
I think the vast majority here will stand on the sidelines if a civil war breaks out. Kaleva Jan 2022 #7
Speak for yourself. WestIndianArchie Jan 2022 #9
And you intend to do that how? Kaleva Jan 2022 #43
Hey WestIndianArchie Jan 2022 #54
"the government already knows who these degenerates are" intelpug Jan 2022 #62
Hey WestIndianArchie Jan 2022 #67
I bet a lot of people said that before the first civil war. Runningdawg Jan 2022 #14
This would be true anywhere, I don't think people would stand for it and would lean on the side of uponit7771 Jan 2022 #18
That's what I fear as well... TheRealNorth Jan 2022 #23
Someone doesn't have to use force to fight. David__77 Jan 2022 #26
Living in Trump Country, I might not last long if I did that. Kaleva Jan 2022 #46
Interesting comment YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #28
I think most here just watched tv on 1/6 and maybe posted their opinions Kaleva Jan 2022 #47
History will tell you - that there is no middle/sideline in a Civil War. Dan Jan 2022 #30
The percentage of people involved in combat in a CW is small. Kaleva Jan 2022 #42
Civil War has many non-combatants who die. Dan Jan 2022 #50
True Kaleva Jan 2022 #51
Some Irish and Scottish immigrants hitting NYC joined the Union army "right off the boat". nt Progressive Jones Jan 2022 #66
True but overall, the percentage of the population that served was very small Kaleva Jan 2022 #79
Sooner Is Always Better Than Later, Sir The Magistrate Jan 2022 #8
Violent ciivil war.... What shape would it take. 3Hotdogs Jan 2022 #10
See you have the most important question YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #29
Rural reality Nasruddin Jan 2022 #34
Yep. What exactly does this "civil war" look like? GoodRaisin Jan 2022 #52
One of the biggest mistakes in US history was not hanging the Confederate Generals RFCalifornia Jan 2022 #11
I agree with that. But I would recommended hanging Colonels and above. Dan Jan 2022 #31
Works for me RFCalifornia Jan 2022 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author traitorsgalore Jan 2022 #12
Yes, that is the problem. But I also said that the alternative would be a much bigger problem Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 #49
A Trump trial, drawn out, would probably be favorable. David__77 Jan 2022 #13
I wish I could agree. cab67 Jan 2022 #20
Qrump will be in so much legal trouble before 2024 KS Toronado Jan 2022 #15
Limited armed conflict more probable Mordred Jan 2022 #16
We have to pass a voting rights act Martin Eden Jan 2022 #17
Schumer announced Friday that they would proceed against a filibuster and gave a deadline pecosbob Jan 2022 #56
The way the Bundy situations were handled... cab67 Jan 2022 #19
I've Been RobinA Jan 2022 #21
Even if you were able to split the Country, how do you stop the spread? Dan Jan 2022 #33
I always wonder just whom they are going to be fighting? BusterMove Jan 2022 #22
Well, they can probably count on a good portion of the military joining them. TheRealNorth Jan 2022 #24
Not a chance in hell YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #32
Right. So again - just who will be fighting whom in this civil war? BusterMove Jan 2022 #39
Guess we all look over our shoulder YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #44
Agreed. Cheers! nt BusterMove Jan 2022 #48
The answer is yes TheRealNorth Jan 2022 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author inthewind21 Jan 2022 #80
I wouldn't get too comfortable inthewind21 Jan 2022 #81
Good OP, but I disagree a little on a few points. Mr.Bill Jan 2022 #27
If Trump goes to prison, he will die there. Dan Jan 2022 #35
I would hope so. Mr.Bill Jan 2022 #38
If imprisoned, he has problems... Dan Jan 2022 #40
I would imagine he would be kept in isolation, and still have SS protection. Mr.Bill Jan 2022 #41
Good point YP_Yooper Jan 2022 #36
Agree Joinfortmill Jan 2022 #37
That's exactly why the announcement from DoJ, while good news, doesn't at all... Silent3 Jan 2022 #45
To clarify a bit, I don't foresee a day soon when most of the nation will be engaged in armed fights Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 #53
Economic collapse n/t LiberatedUSA Jan 2022 #59
Yes, Where is the Business Community? McKim Jan 2022 #72
To clarify a bit intelpug Jan 2022 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Jan 2022 #55
I certainly agree timing is important. soldierant Jan 2022 #60
"Mass arrests of high profile leaders " intelpug Jan 2022 #63
That sounds like a message they just might understans soldierant Jan 2022 #70
I think you are on to something... kentuck Jan 2022 #65
We must smash all the people involved in 1/6. The Jungle 1 Jan 2022 #73
Kill the bad information sources and the aRmed Resistance will come around. flying_wahini Jan 2022 #75
Optimally! He's broken laws time and time again, before and while POTUS. TeamProg Jan 2022 #83
Oh, come on. Oneironaut Jan 2022 #84
First, read my post #53 above. I do not disagree, that post clarifies... Tom Rinaldo Jan 2022 #85
Maybe it's time to look into restoring the Fairness Doctrine minstrel76 Jan 2022 #86

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
5. I am not supporting armed conflict against the right. Far from it.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:38 PM
Jan 2022

I support using legal constitutional means to hold the far right fully accountable for their efforts to undermine democracy. I simply anticipate that they will not back down peacefully when that occurs. I hope I am wrong about that, but if I am not then I believe legitimate civil society, and those tasked with maintaining justice law and order inside of our Republic, will be best positioned to prevail against those who would ferment violence and secession, if they are fully countered (through lawful means) sooner rather than later. I think that would greatly reduce potential violent incidents in our nation.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
25. their strength is vastly overestimated and tied closely to Dem and progressive ignorance of
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:11 PM
Jan 2022

RW radio. we don't even poll for it.

they use those stations to coordinate and fire up that extremist base. a lot of the real wackos ended up at jan 6. the Q-anon thing is based on 10 months of rw radio attacks on the 'liberal deep state', amped up with social media for abuse victims and a younger crowd.

the easiest and most effective way to derail the fascist right is to go on offense vs rw radio, which is very vulnerable now with limbaugh rotting. AI makes it easy and cheap to monitor, expose, and discredit rw radio, and very easy to boycott and expose advertisers.

then there are 87+ universities that can be protested for supporting 260 stations that have been feeding this radicalism with lies for 30 years. when they start pulling sports broadcasts the ad industry will force the breakup of the monopoly.

there's a fair bit of evidence russia has been using rw radio here, and around the world. here since at least 2008, mostly through limbaugh. we need investigations into that to expose russian manipulation of rw radio, to discredit it and their leaders who have been parroting limbaugh and sons.

destroying rw radio will go a long way to turning this around.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
58. Absolutely crucial
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 09:22 PM
Jan 2022

and hoping that the threat from RW radio is taken seriously enough to be stopped.

Artistree22

(40 posts)
61. Exactly.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 09:43 PM
Jan 2022

Thank you certainot for your persistence with this issue. (a lonely voice in the wind sometimes) You have been spot on- the anger, fear and divisiveness that those stations fueled have done so much damage.

How do we elevate this issue beyond DU? I have seen your comments ignored over the years yet commentators are saying "what can we do?" We have seen our power as consumers and boycotts work.

Maybe this would be an area that Democratic celebs could bring awareness??

(Following the money would certainly show some the ex-resident's puppet master's involvement. I'm not a betting person but I would bet on that.)

But

Do you think it is too late for those who have been listening to RW radio for all of this time? Are they gaining listeners? If the programming changed, these folks will just change the dial. They have been conditioned to think this way and the rural tribalism mostly supports this way of thinking.

I think we have to focus on the disengaged Americans and young people who aren't voting and they aren't listening to the radio or see it's influence.

Tik Tok-(pun intended) Tik Tok- you young folks- this is your future we are trying to save. At least- get your universities to stop airing their games on RW radio.


Love n peace

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
68. i think the biggest influence of rw radio is the massive well-coordinated buzz it generates but
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 01:11 AM
Jan 2022

a of the effect is secondary and tertiary, reaching apathetic and too-busy americans through friends and family and coworkers. then they vote stupidly when they go to the booth. like hillary's emails etc.

most of that rw radio effect would dissolve quickly if dems would just stop ignoring it. but media is full of analysts who have no clue what rw radio is. the two political experts on PBS judy woodruff show tonight agreed that republicans are living in an alternate reality but they have no clue why or how. facebook and the internet can't create the widespread alternate realities that gave us trump.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
69. Thank you- this is exactly the problem
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 01:50 AM
Jan 2022

hoping that somehow they can wake up to this and do something at long long last.

CrispyQ

(36,464 posts)
74. We need a marketing department--stat!
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 11:46 AM
Jan 2022

We're 40 years behind the 8-ball. The right has more successfully defined our side than we have. Tax & spend democrats. Weak on borders democrats. Socialists. Commies. Baby killers. And our side? Crickets.

George Lakoff was right when he stated in his book "Moral Politics," that dems think it's good enough to point to our platform page & say, "This is what we stand for." It isn't. You have to toot your own horn or people will never know what you're about. We don't do messaging. We don't even try. And it's killing us.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
76. but lakoff and the branding experts always talk stye and content, and there's no way to beat
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 12:07 PM
Jan 2022

the volume and monopoly dominance advantage they have other than by reducing it.

they sit around in their think tanks looking for messaging success from dems, yawn, come up with a lie, slogan, or meme to distort or 'refute' it and then pump it out of 1500 radio stations, or just the ones in georgia or florida, etc, for free for as long as it takes.

how could we not 'message' global warming right? it's the same with protest movements - millions in the streets and all they do is lie about the motives and aims (abolishing police, 'critical race theory', kneeling athletes are unamerican, etc) and then yell it loud for as long as it take and it's all free and supported by at least 87 universities, a lot of pro sports teams, and 1000s of advertisers that probably hate tfg as much as we do

CrispyQ

(36,464 posts)
77. I totally agree with you.
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 12:29 PM
Jan 2022

We ignored hate radio for too long & now it's morphed into a huge right wing media machine. Any messaging we put out now is drown out by the right. They've been playing the long game & they're playing for keeps. Our side seems slow to acknowledge the threat that's right in front of us. I still can't believe Dianne Feinstein doesn't think democracy's in danger. Seriously? Wake the fuck up, Senator.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
71. An Excellent Post
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 10:14 AM
Jan 2022

An excellent post. This is the way to head off a Civil War! We should have had our own radio stations for decades now. Boycotting the advertisers is a big thing to coordinate but it is going to be very effective.

ShazamIam

(2,571 posts)
78. Yes, most of this so called Trump support is paid for and amplified by friendly authoritarian
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 12:40 PM
Jan 2022

loving sites like facebook, youtube and twitter and why Dorsey was removed as CEO.

CrispyQ

(36,464 posts)
6. I totally agree.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:39 PM
Jan 2022

We don't have the years that they took for Watergate. We have less than one year. Their base is fired up & ready to vote. And ours? Not so much, IMO. And now we have a slew of voter suppression laws against us, too.

Kaleva

(36,299 posts)
7. I think the vast majority here will stand on the sidelines if a civil war breaks out.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:43 PM
Jan 2022

I get the sense that most folks don't have it in them to put a bullet in the head of Magahat or be an accessory to such an action. I don't.

WestIndianArchie

(386 posts)
9. Speak for yourself.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 01:55 PM
Jan 2022

lol.

The solution to the problems these assholes are causing is pretty simple. Round them up and imprison them for life. The government already knows who these degenerates are.

intelpug

(88 posts)
62. "the government already knows who these degenerates are"
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:01 PM
Jan 2022

Yea, well the last I heard they still haven't identified all the january 6 participants exept those identifiable on camera or who openly bragged about it. As far as nationwide goes as long as they haven't committed any outward criminal acts then I doubt the government is doing anything towards keeping track since that would entail keeping dossiers on private citizens first amendment activities which is I believe illegal, even if they happen to be Trump supporters

Runningdawg

(4,516 posts)
14. I bet a lot of people said that before the first civil war.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:23 PM
Jan 2022

And a lot of them didn't want to pick a side. Neither did some during WWII or other wars.

“We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must - at that moment - become the center of the universe.” Elie Wiesel

uponit7771

(90,339 posts)
18. This would be true anywhere, I don't think people would stand for it and would lean on the side of
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:35 PM
Jan 2022

... democracy if they got a good view of what MAGA brings.

See Texas for example, the lead pols in that state can pimp slap infants in public cause its a dictatorship with the lowest voter access in the union

TheRealNorth

(9,481 posts)
23. That's what I fear as well...
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:07 PM
Jan 2022

Lots of "Good Germans" that will stay quiet even after the ashes start falling from the sky.

David__77

(23,396 posts)
26. Someone doesn't have to use force to fight.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:23 PM
Jan 2022

People in the street - many of them - can be important. They can serve to protect others and raise the stakes.

Kaleva

(36,299 posts)
46. Living in Trump Country, I might not last long if I did that.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:36 PM
Jan 2022

Although, being related one way or another to many in town, I'd probably be left alone and just be ignored.

 

YP_Yooper

(291 posts)
28. Interesting comment
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:38 PM
Jan 2022

it's been a while, but wasn't it something like 85% of the country didn't do much of anything during the revolutionary war? I mean, aside from getting picnick baskets, climbing to the rooftops to watch the battles?

Dan

(3,562 posts)
30. History will tell you - that there is no middle/sideline in a Civil War.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:00 PM
Jan 2022

Dead from the Right, Dead from the Left, Dead either way.

Kaleva

(36,299 posts)
42. The percentage of people involved in combat in a CW is small.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:28 PM
Jan 2022

Most do what they must to survive.

About 10% of Northerners served during the American Civil War and many of those who did serve were drafted.

Kaleva

(36,299 posts)
51. True
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 05:27 PM
Jan 2022

People who just want to survive the conflict and don't really care who wins as long as peace and stability return.

Syria is an example.

3Hotdogs

(12,376 posts)
10. Violent ciivil war.... What shape would it take.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:07 PM
Jan 2022

First traitors would be the sheriffs and police that will not enforce mask and vaccine laws. First victims will be red state election officials and maybe legislators.

From there, I don't know. A couple of thousand cars driving along Rt 80 from Wyoming to N.J. would be easily stopped. Just stop the delivery of fuel to the local gas stations.

What do you think a civil war will look like. I believe it is going to happen.

 

YP_Yooper

(291 posts)
29. See you have the most important question
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:43 PM
Jan 2022

It's not anything like the Civil War v1. What we have today is like coastal v interior. Rural v Urban.

There are no clear lines like there was back then.

California is as blue as blue overall, but there are millions of red repubs living there. Same with Washington and Oregon. Urban doesn't have a chance without food from rural. Rural doesn't have a chance without power and tech, and well, everything needed today.

So, what I'm saying is maybe less like what we think as our US Civil War, and more like the Bosnian War where everyone not in your little group from one neighborhood to another is an enemy?

Nasruddin

(754 posts)
34. Rural reality
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:05 PM
Jan 2022

People in rural areas, in general, don't grow their own food either.

Even in CA's Central Valley, which grows everything, areas are specialized and so are the farms.

GoodRaisin

(8,922 posts)
52. Yep. What exactly does this "civil war" look like?
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 05:40 PM
Jan 2022

RW gun humpers marching through suburban neighborhoods shooting at known liberals?

RFCalifornia

(440 posts)
11. One of the biggest mistakes in US history was not hanging the Confederate Generals
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:11 PM
Jan 2022

We appear to be making that mistake again

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
49. Yes, that is the problem. But I also said that the alternative would be a much bigger problem
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 05:11 PM
Jan 2022

I can understand the impulse that some might have to not stir up a hornet's nest charging Trump and members of his inner circle. But to leave that nest undisturbed now is to facilitate the proliferation of more hornets and a much larger and even angrier swarm later. And by later I don't mean very much later - January 2025 at the latest. Don't put off to tomorrow what should have been done yesterday.

David__77

(23,396 posts)
13. A Trump trial, drawn out, would probably be favorable.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:18 PM
Jan 2022

Even if the legal outcome is not desirable. By drawn out, I mean years.

cab67

(2,993 posts)
20. I wish I could agree.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:38 PM
Jan 2022

You might be right. But if it goes on too long, people might lose interest. That wouldn't be favorable.

KS Toronado

(17,235 posts)
15. Qrump will be in so much legal trouble before 2024
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:26 PM
Jan 2022

I don't believe he'll be in a position to run again. Until then he'll still want his followers to believe he'll
somehow M.A.G.A. with another term in office so they'll keep donating to him.

Mordred

(154 posts)
16. Limited armed conflict more probable
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:27 PM
Jan 2022

I believe America was always headed on the path of a likely regional fracturing which could largely be bloodless. The increasing rural/urban divide and the outsized minority rural power over the country seems to make this inevitable.

I believe Trump accelerated the timetable of a fracture and the Supreme Court could precipitate things via controversial rulings leading to states declaring a decision illegitimate. All this could lead to limited scale conflicts but a settling into a new status quo of several smaller nation states.

Martin Eden

(12,867 posts)
17. We have to pass a voting rights act
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:32 PM
Jan 2022

To overrule voter suppression laws and state attempts to overturn results by submitting Electors for the loser.

THAT is how they plan to steal the 2024 presidential election; not through violent insurrection, but by corrupting the process.

Once Trump or some other fascist Rethug like DeSantis takes power, our democracy is on its deathbed.

RW militias will continue to be a domestic terrorist threat no matter what. I don't doubt violence would follow conviction and incarceration of Trump, but I don't foresee secession or an actual civil war.

The actual coup will be from within through ostensibly legal means.

pecosbob

(7,538 posts)
56. Schumer announced Friday that they would proceed against a filibuster and gave a deadline
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 08:55 PM
Jan 2022

If passed by whatever procedural means I expect it will be challenged tooth and nail.

cab67

(2,993 posts)
19. The way the Bundy situations were handled...
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:37 PM
Jan 2022

...was reactive, at least in part.

Right-wing gun people still talk about the 1992 Ruby Ridge incident and Branch Davidian standoff. Too many people seem to have taken the wrong lesson from them - that the feds would act like the minions of a tyrannical dictator if you tried to protect your rights. Federal agencies have been much less willing to show force in such situations ever since, especially in the Mountain West. It was an matter of image-management, however badly it's backfired.

Moreover, a lot of people showed up with guns at the Bundy standoffs in Nevada and Oregon. They might have worried for a repeat of how the Branch Davidian standoff began - with a lot of people in fortified positions firing on federal agents. A lot of people would have been killed, including federal agents. As far as I'm concerned, that would all have been on the Bundys - but unfortunately, not everyone would have seen it that way.

I'm not defending the kid-gloves treatment they got. Just trying to put some context around the decisions. Personally, I thought the feds should have been a lot more assertive when the Bundists took control of Malheur NWR.

An even bigger problem is the jury nullification we witnessed when the Bundys were taken to trial. They all walked.

RobinA

(9,893 posts)
21. I've Been
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:47 PM
Jan 2022

thinking about a nice, mediated, two state solution. My biggest problem is what to do with the fact that one of the new states is divided in half by thousands of miles of the other state. I have no desire to move to the west coast, and I'm sure they don't want to move here. You could split the country latitudinally, making SoCal move north, but what North Dakotian wants to move that far south? Maybe some flexibility about borders, no straight lines.

Dan

(3,562 posts)
33. Even if you were able to split the Country, how do you stop the spread?
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:04 PM
Jan 2022

The Right Wing, GOP is like a virus - that infects everyone that comes close to it.

BusterMove

(11,996 posts)
22. I always wonder just whom they are going to be fighting?
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 02:53 PM
Jan 2022

Do we see them taking on the US military?

🍿

Or - Can you have a civil war if only one side shows up?

 

YP_Yooper

(291 posts)
32. Not a chance in hell
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:02 PM
Jan 2022

1) The US military, by all recent reporting, is split politically.
2) How many military personnel will fire upon their own countrymen?

And lastly, what any military historian would recognize as an example:

Afghanistan, by any measure a 3rd world, undeveloped country, has thrown off the Mongol hordes, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the greatest military the earth has seen with the US. Rumor has it Japan’s Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." To the military, it's a mission. To the people, it's their home.

Anyone thinking the US military is going to offensively control the ground with so many weapons from people defending their home is a fool.

I say this for both sides, not offering some glamorous image of the right.

 

YP_Yooper

(291 posts)
44. Guess we all look over our shoulder
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:30 PM
Jan 2022

unless you can find the easy pickings - like the MAGA hats or Trump 2024 signs in their windows and yards

Apologies for being flippant, but it's hard to see why someone would shoot another for what? mask policy? Will a Trumper aim a gun at you for getting a vacc? I mean, in a country of 320 million, you can always find exceptions, but locally, I'm not sure there will be a general Bosnia-type civil war or gun-slinging stand-off.

Politicians throwing shoes at one another like in South Korea, yeah, surprised it didn't happen already, but a shooting war is hard to see.

TheRealNorth

(9,481 posts)
82. The answer is yes
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 01:05 PM
Jan 2022

Some Trumpers have shot at people because of masks. And if they could get away with it without fear of criminal prosecution, I bet a lot more would. (At least until the fear of being shot stopped the mask-wearing).

Response to BusterMove (Reply #22)

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
81. I wouldn't get too comfortable
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 12:53 PM
Jan 2022

assuming the US Military would step up and defend the country. A huge problem we currently have is the infiltration of the Military and the police with right wing nut jobs. And there appears to be no effort underway to correct that problem. Look how many police and military were involved with storming the capital on 01/06.

Mr.Bill

(24,289 posts)
27. Good OP, but I disagree a little on a few points.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 03:24 PM
Jan 2022

The NRA is not a political organization so much as they are a financial organization. Tell them you are a Democrat and send them money. See if they send it back. They would take money from Planned Parenthood if they offered it. They are lobbyists for gun manufacturers, and likely a conduit for dark money paid to politicians.

As far as what Trump can do as a candidate nearing election vs what he can do now, I think he would have a better chance winning in 2024 if he was sitting in prison than if he were free. It would energize his small base to the point of violence. So I don't know what we should do as far as the timing of going after him. That's in Garland's hands.

But excellent OP and you raise a lot of good points.

Mr.Bill

(24,289 posts)
38. I would hope so.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:16 PM
Jan 2022

But it will be interesting to see what happens if a convict gets elected president. It has, of course, never happened before.

Dan

(3,562 posts)
40. If imprisoned, he has problems...
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:23 PM
Jan 2022

#1. Is he still entitled to Secret Service protection?

If not, then it would be just a matter of time until his big mouth overloads his ass.

Someone will want to become famous for offfing him.

He has pissed off a log of people that are not his base, it would be just a matter of time until someone slices and dices him.

And, finally, he hasn’t paid the Russians back - between that and our own government figuring that he is less trouble dead, why not.

Mr.Bill

(24,289 posts)
41. I would imagine he would be kept in isolation, and still have SS protection.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:28 PM
Jan 2022

The big question would be how much access he would have to communication, other government officials and the internet.

Silent3

(15,212 posts)
45. That's exactly why the announcement from DoJ, while good news, doesn't at all...
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 04:34 PM
Jan 2022

...allay my anger that more hasn't been done sooner. Time is precious here, and no matter what the DoJ does next, they have already frittered away too much time without going directly after the instigators of the insurrection.

We can only hope we haven't already missed the opportunities we need.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
53. To clarify a bit, I don't foresee a day soon when most of the nation will be engaged in armed fights
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 06:53 PM
Jan 2022

But I think violent flashpoints will increasingly happen, the question is to what extent will they be fermented, aided, and abetted by elected officials intentionally striking defiant stances to rile up their core supporters? That can lead to an unraveling of our constitutional republic if some elected leaders openly refuse to accept laws that they disagree with. Think of George Wallace blocking the school house doors on a mega level. Think of units of a State's National Guard refusing to enforce federal laws and mandates, with the backing of that State's quasi rebellious Governor. If constitutional order isn't reestablished soon, I think that is where we are heading, and what would happen after that, in that kind of seething void, is anyone's guess.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
72. Yes, Where is the Business Community?
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 10:30 AM
Jan 2022

Yes, where is the business sector on this issue? The stock market hates instability and so does business. Why aren't they stabilizing the country and standing up to these crazies?

intelpug

(88 posts)
64. To clarify a bit
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:26 PM
Jan 2022

I think your quite right and as far as it go's mostly these internet boards is where one finds most of this civil war bullshit tossed around and damn little anywhere else in the real world

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

soldierant

(6,866 posts)
60. I certainly agree timing is important.
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 09:37 PM
Jan 2022

But in what way or ways it can be nest used is not, to me, as obvious as all that.

Mass arrests of high profile leaders just before the 2022 primaries could be effective - espscially if some were of Trumpian Congresspeole who were expecting to win those primaries. The same can be said (although I'd hate to wait that long) of just befoe the 2024 RNC.

DEfinitely surprise should be a factor in planing timing.

I'm not cognizant of what is happening among justice professionals (nor should I be). But they are professionals, and I suspect timing has occurred to them.

intelpug

(88 posts)
63. "Mass arrests of high profile leaders "
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:18 PM
Jan 2022

Mass arrest of high profile leaders just before the 2022 primaries ? Now... that.... sounds like the move of a truly tyrannical dictatoral government to me!

kentuck

(111,094 posts)
65. I think you are on to something...
Mon Jan 3, 2022, 10:29 PM
Jan 2022

Attempting to "compromise" will only make it worse. Take a stand now.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
73. We must smash all the people involved in 1/6.
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 11:30 AM
Jan 2022

Ruin them!
Lincoln was shot but Lee and Davis lived long lives. The south celebrated the Civil war for 150 years. We are just now taking down their statues and ending the celebration. Appeasement does not work. These un-American scum must pay for their treason. Spare the rod spoil the child!!!!

flying_wahini

(6,594 posts)
75. Kill the bad information sources and the aRmed Resistance will come around.
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 11:51 AM
Jan 2022

If those ‘radio shows’ were snuffed out and/or replaced with ‘good’ information
and stopped broadcasting CRAP it would give the regular listeners a chance to reconsider
their trumpian ideas that got us into this mess in the first place. They have been spoon fed
for 2 decades (or more) the story line about how ‘Bad’ all Democrats Presidency’s are.
Start with Faux news. I know they aren’t licensed by the FCC but why the hell aren’t they?

If you don’t change their minds you won’t change their hearts. ( I know that is a bigger job than
it sounds.)Stop providing shelter for these Limpball types and take them to jail for treason and
Insurrection. The FCC could pull a few licenses but they don’t have teeth.
Stop supporting University programs that preach insurrection.
Isn’t Alex Jones still on the air?

Hitler could have been stopped if the brown shirts were rounded up and jailed early.
That’s where we are now. They get bad information and run with it.

If the laws don’t provide shelter for the real truth I guess we will have to wait on our neighbors to go marching in the streets with their guns.

TeamProg

(6,130 posts)
83. Optimally! He's broken laws time and time again, before and while POTUS.
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 02:07 PM
Jan 2022

Still, I'm guessing TFG's conviction will come long before 2024's GOP nomination.

Oneironaut

(5,494 posts)
84. Oh, come on.
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 02:51 PM
Jan 2022

No one is going to run out and start shooting people. Trump’s legal efforts failed miserably, and there is no current organized armed right wing militia (100 meth-addicts playing soldier in the backwoods of Georgia don’t count).

The current trend is worrisome. However, be prepared to protest. I think the concept of a civil war is laughable right now. You would literally need states to start seceding, or a breakaway organization to raise an army capable of capturing anything.

The Trumpy, “I got my guns n’ I’m ready!” crowd is engaged in an extremely cringey Red Dawn LARP. They’re not going to shoot anyone, and the 0.001% that actually would wouldn’t make it past the police. They’re generally untrained, have only fired guns at a firing range, and live on a steady diet of Butterfingers and spoonfed outrage from Faux Noise.

PS- People are gonna start shooting each other when they can’t even get off their arses to protest? Protest first for heavens sake, rather than living violent revenge fantasies against right-wing blowhards. There is so little chance of this happening that it’s still in the realm of absurdity.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
85. First, read my post #53 above. I do not disagree, that post clarifies...
Tue Jan 4, 2022, 03:10 PM
Jan 2022

There will not be anything remotely approaching wide spread warfare under the worst of possible scenarios. There may be some armed skirmishes however involving different groups defending their concepts of legitimate rights, and also increased incidents of domestic terrorism, some potentially on the scale of the Oklahoma City bombing. Most likely would be attempts by organized groups in very conservative rural dominated red States to assert their right to "nullify" what they see as illegitimate federal authority and dictates. Some in western states, for example, could refuse to recognize federal ownership of large swaths of public lands which they might choose to "repurpose " In some instances right wing legislatures and government officials in States like Idaho could back them in such claims. When I say that time emboldens the extremists, that is what I mean. Ted Cruz now talks about Secession. Yes it is just talk, but U.S. Senators didn't talk that way four years ago.

P.S. My reference to literal "Civil War" was in response to increasing media speculation along those lines. My point was that whatever one's level of fear over how badly our society may be heading toward fracturing, the surest way to head that off is to confront those pushing radical narratives now with the full power of the law where applicable.

minstrel76

(83 posts)
86. Maybe it's time to look into restoring the Fairness Doctrine
Wed Jan 5, 2022, 04:09 PM
Jan 2022

Pandora's box has already been open for a long time and I don't know if it would make much difference.

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