General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould the US Senate remain as it is?
Just curious. Until 1913, all senators were not elected, but appointed by their state legislatures. Regardless of population, each state is given 2 senators which ends up overstating the representation of less populous states, and understating the representation of more populous sates. This is in contrast with the house of representatives, where decennial reapporitionment and redistricting nearly guarantees a slightly more proportional representation of their constituents. My question is: Should the US Senate be changed, and how?
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Constitution_Senate.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate
35 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
The Senate works fine as it is and should remain as it is. | |
9 (26%) |
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End bicameralism. The Senate should be abolished and the House of Reps should be the sole legislative house. | |
3 (9%) |
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The Senate should be reformed to be more representative of the populations they represent. | |
23 (66%) |
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Something else. | |
0 (0%) |
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0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)You won't get 3/5 of the States (especially the small ones) to give up their Senate equality.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)onenote
(42,714 posts)The underlying premise is that certain states have too much power under the current structure. Why would any of those states agree to give up their power?
ColinC
(8,301 posts)And most people could probably come to terms with that idea when pressed. But again, your point would make it damn near impossible at least in the current environment. Uphill battle. Maybe even a really, really steep uphill battle. But possible nonetheless.
JI7
(89,252 posts)ColinC
(8,301 posts)But alas, I remain hopeful that can change. Along with other issues like the EC and Senate Reform
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)Seriously, you'd have to answer that question. And it's not as simple as "we should have proportional representation". We DO have that: in the House. The Senate arguably serves a different function. You'll need to explain why that second function isn't useful.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Overriding the majority will far more often than should be the case.
Polybius
(15,428 posts)That's the funniest thing I've heard here in weeks. Only a foolish state would give up its power because you think it's right. What's in it for them?
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Because many smaller states have given up their power through getting on board the electoral college pact in favor of the majority vote. They give up their power in a big way in choosing the president because they argue it isn't right for their state to override the will of the majority.
The same argument has been had in the senate as well.
Many prominent statesmen including the late John Dingell have advocated for abolishing the senate, and there is already a constitutional amendment proposed to do doing so.
https://www.vox.com/2018/12/4/18125539/john-dingell-abolish-senate
Polybius
(15,428 posts)It was negotiated through the Founding Fathers, primarily Hamilton.
Would you support a parliamentary system instead, perhaps with a Prime Minister? Or do you want to abolish it and replace it with nothing?
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Today, in a nation of more than 325 million and 37 additional states, not only is that structure antiquated, its downright dangerous. California has almost 40 million people, while the 20 smallest states have a combined population totaling less than that. Yet because of an 18th-century political deal, those 20 states have 40 senators, while California has just two. These sparsely populated, usually conservative states can block legislation supported by a majority of the American people. Thats just plain crazy.
Polybius
(15,428 posts)Abolishing it and replacing it with nothing, or having a parliamentary system Prime Minister? It seems fair.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)I assume the original idea was unicameral separate from the federal government. Same as now but without the senate.
If we abolished the Senate, I would go with that. But even I think that it shouldn't be abolished outright. Reform towards reducing it's power in favor of the house would be best IMHO.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)But yeah it would still be unicameral apparently...
Polybius
(15,428 posts)Two from every state. That's a great suggestion.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 8, 2022, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)
Expand the house chamber or keep them in the senate chamber?
I don't disagree with expanding the house, but doing so in a non proportional way does bother me.
Celerity
(43,408 posts)but one of multiple, potentially fatal long wave constitutional flaws that may well synergistically combine to culminate in just such a dissolution.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)Celerity
(43,408 posts)brooklynite
(94,595 posts)States don't have the same level of autonomy (they certainly don't have their own armies like they used to) and the economic structure of the country is too intertwined.
AllaN01Bear
(18,253 posts)Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)sarisataka
(18,663 posts)Has nothing to do with a state's population and was never intended to.
As for changing the Senate, there is a 0.00% chance of getting all 50 states to agree to an Amendment changing the representation so any discussion is for philosophical purposes only.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)But that doesn't change the difficulty too much.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(1,924 posts)Article 5 contains 2 clauses that limits what can be amended in the Constitution, the first had sunset provision and expired in 1808, the 2nd one does not and is still in effect. It states that "that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."
It's been speculated that we could amend Article 5 and remove that clause, then amend the Constitution to change the Senate apportionment, but that's not guaranteed to work.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Again whether we need 38 or 50 states, the other poster's point pretty much stands. It is very, very difficult to get to happen. I just argue that it is a .01% chance. Not .00%.
Polybius
(15,428 posts)A Constitutional Convention.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)polls like this one don't make much sense, really. It will not happen. So, what I think is irrelevant.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Some folks forget how unrepresentative the Senate is and could use the reminder. I think it could change sometime in the next couple hundred years. But not if nobody talks about it.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)For now, maybe we could think about how to preserve our democracy at all.
Truly.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)And if it does not happen, and our society continues to become more undemocratic vs more democratic and the institutions fail to change with the times -they will fail. Pondering different ways to make our government more vs less representative at a time when there is a full fledged effort to eradicate our democracy can only help IMHO.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)You go ahead and think about it.
dwayneb
(768 posts)Recently I've been reading what our founders had to say and the warning they had about the road ahead for all of us.
Now that I am an old geezer I have realized that 250 years is not really that long ago, that we are still a young country.
Franklin and Washington and the others would be rolling over in their graves if they observed that we refused ot even discuss modifying our Constitution and structure of government to protect our freedoms.
While it is not likely this will change anytime soon it should always be a topic of discussion.
But first we have to survive the attack from the Fascist Right which is the immediate threat. If we don't survive that battle, then this discussion in moot.
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)From the beginning the Senate was NEVER meant to represent the people of the State. It was constructed to represent the interests of the States themselves. Period, end of story.
Our Country is a union of the States, not of the people.
Its purpose is the protect the interests of the State.
If we want to change that we have to fundamentally change our Constitution.
Johonny
(20,851 posts)The discussion is 200 years over due. It should be mentioned at every opportunity. The Senate is so dysfunctional and unrepresentative that it will lead to the collapse of the government. It's only a matter of time.
Voltaire2
(13,061 posts)is going to implode, imagining what a new government would look like is a good idea and quite relevant.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)prevent that implosion. It always seems to me that working toward what can be done is more useful than talking about things that cannot.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)as a society. If we were, we would be in a far better situation and we wouldn't have had a buffoonish fascist as President for four years.
People love to dream about things, partly because dreaming takes no effort. Actually doing stuff is hard work.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)Folks have been proposing ways to change the senate in prominent settings like talk shows, books, etc. However, changing the electoral college is far more feasible, and we are already just about ten states away from nullifying the electoral college vote with electoral college pact in favor of the majority vote instead. Also, the discussions of bringing in new states like Puerto Rican and dc continue to be discussed. We also cannot discount the small changes that are being vigorously discussed in the senate about the fillibuster and the major changes in itself that brings.
We can think big while also getting small things done that make a big difference. We have been doing it for quite a while even if some folks didn't notice.
The late John Dingell: Abolish the Senate:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/12/4/18125539/john-dingell-abolish-senate
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)The states are not ten votes away from nullifying the electoral college first of all. The interstate vote thing will never pass court muster. It is an end-run around the constitution. The only way to end the electoral college is by a constitutional amendment that will never be ratified (small states are a hard no) even if we ever had the votes to begin the process which I believe is unlikely to happen.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)That will likely happen as soon as there are 51 votes to do it. I assume that if the Democrats win 52 votes next year, the fillibuster will be abolished. Or if the Republicans get another trifecta in 2024, they will also likely abolish it.
The EC pact is about 2/3rds of the way of effectively getting rid of the electoral college because of the number of states that have passed and signed legislation or voted on referendums to do so.
This is not just talk. There have been concerted efforts in getting people on board with doing all of these things, and there have been a number influential people who signed into them.
Just because it takes a long time to get these things done, doesn't mean it is impossible. It just means it takes a stronger effort for it to happen. And if any of it does, it will be because of the so called "time wasters" who fought diligently to make the impossible happen.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)look at the maps getting two seats and holding what we got will be tough this year.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)And it will be very, very bad.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)ColinC
(8,301 posts)Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)As my Daddy used to say...' almost only counts in horseshoes.'
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)ColinC
(8,301 posts)States have the authority to designate their electoral college votes in however way they can. States individually giving their votes to the popular vote winner when there is a majority of electoral college votes on board will work just as effectively as a constitutional amendment.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)change it. It won't work.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)For this purpose. And if the current rules don't stand, it will open up a can of worms that could undermine the authority that states have in the constitution, which I imagine even conservative courts won't want to mess with.
Either way, it is still a huge step in the right direction given that a substantial number of big states and small states have signed on to ceding their power in trying to eliminate the electoral college.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)ColinC
(8,301 posts)maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)Unless larger states break in to pieces the size of WY or VT. And then it makes the Senate pointless.
This is a structural flaw, probably the biggest one, in the Constitution.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,840 posts)How about just one big Dakota?
Wytanna?
A HERETIC I AM
(24,370 posts)There is a movement for the creation of a large, mostly white ethno-state combining eastern Oregon and Washington with Idaho.
Fine, the scaredy white folks can have their conservative utopia. They get 2 senators and the appropriate number of Representatives
Then combine the Dakotas and combine Montana and Wyoming.
Next, add statehood to DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa, each with 2 senators and the appropriate number of reps.
The combined population of Utah, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas is about 13,150,000. 16 Senators.
The population of the greater LA metroplex is over 18 million.
2 senators.
It is seriously fucked up.
meadowlander
(4,397 posts)Everyone gets to vote for both a senator and a party. Their senator can win by first past the post but the total number of senators is filled in with party list senators so that the percentage of senators reflects the percentage of the overall population that voted for that party. Any party that gets at least 5% of the overall vote gets at least one senator.
So let's say I live in New Jersey. I can vote for the Democratic party senator who is most likely to win but also vote for the green or socialist party. My Democratic senator gets in with 52% of the vote and then if the green or socialist party gets at least 5% of the party vote, the total number of senators is filled in with the person on the top of that party's list.
Instead of 100 senators you would have 130ish senators. 100 are directly elected and 30ish are appointed off lists so that the senate reflects the party percentage in the general population.
This makes it easier to have multiple parties and harder for any one party to ignore part of its constituency because the only alternative is to vote for someone completely unpalatable from the other party. So parties need to build coalitions and listen to all of the parts of the coalition.
It would break the two-party deadlock in the Senate where no-one is getting anything that they want because it reduces the threat of someone being primaried and losing their seat if they vote their conscience instead of the party line. In the present situation, we could guarantee someone like Susan Collins, Linda Murkowski or even Liz Cheney a place on the Democratic list if they changed parties and then even if they were primaried and lost in their states they could keep their senate seats.
And it would get rid of the impact of population on the overall makeup of the Senate because this would reflect the national party vote instead of two per state regardless of relative population size.
This is the model used in the two strongest democracies today - Germany and New Zealand.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)I like it.
Wounded Bear
(58,666 posts)What's needed is a drastic change to the Senate rules.
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)Offsets the strength of States with larger representation in the House. One of the checks and balances.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)The offset you describe is often a group of people representing a minority of voters overriding the will of the majority.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)ColinC
(8,301 posts)Preventing common sense legislation from passing so that states that represent a minority of voters can actually tyrannize their populations?
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)Come up with acceptable compromise. Something like Manchin.
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)Emile
(22,789 posts)marie999
(3,334 posts)I think that a change would not be good for the country. There needs to be changes in the way the Senate operates. It seems that people think that only states with smaller populations would be against it, but I think some of the larger states would also be against it. That is even if it could possibly be done with 38 states instead of all 50.
ColinC
(8,301 posts)That is absolutely for sure.
Voltaire2
(13,061 posts)It should become an advisory only body or abolished entirely. It is an anti democratic relic of our slave economy past.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)four years out of the last 26.
myohmy2
(3,163 posts)...what useful purpose does it serve other than to give low populated dip-shit states equal footing with the populated states...
...it's an undemocratic institution bastardized even further by the filibuster...
...dump it, outside of the improvement we'd never know the difference...
...
In It to Win It
(8,254 posts)jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Not going to happen.
Trailrider1951
(3,414 posts)A simple majority should be all that's necessary to bring legislation to a vote.
MurrayDelph
(5,299 posts)Two from DC, and two from Puerto Rico.
Polybius
(15,428 posts)Abolish the 17th Amendment.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)Polybius
(15,428 posts)I trust them.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)Not voting for President.
Slavery.
nb: repeal the 17th Amendment and you lose:
Maggie Hassan
Jean Shaheen
Bernie Sanders
Sherrod Brown
Jon Tester
Mark Kelly
Raphael Warnock
Jon Ossof
Tammy Baldwin
Polybius
(15,428 posts)Unfortunately, they couldn't get the Southern states to join if slavery was illegal from the start.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)Either you trust the Founding Fathers or you don't.
Polybius
(15,428 posts)Either we get a US or not was their choice.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)be screwed. Moving away from voting is not nor ever will be the answer.
Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)is little point in even trying because we don't have the votes...a deal should have been made on BBB...but the broken Senate couldn't get it done.
ForgedCrank
(1,782 posts)the circular rule of politics and power should always be the primary consideration. Changing rules, law or policy for advantage can hurt just as bad (or more) in the end.
I see it like this: the power I gain by setting new rules or guidelines are equally given to my opponent. We are plying with fire in promoting such things.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 11, 2022, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)
I think I was confused when I wrote this but meant that low population states should not have an equal number of senators as larger population states. So maybe really it should be- increase senators for larger population states. Or just modify the senate and the presidency. Go to a parliamentary type system instead where there is no one branch which can dominate and certainly no one person such as a president who can have too much power.
PufPuf23
(8,787 posts)the original intent of the Senate and improve representative democracy at the State and Federal level.
Ending the filibuster is the most practical now, splitting states would be much more involved. Adding DC and Puerto Rico is somewhat in between as far as implementation and las a leg up politically now.
The Senate would be expanded as each split State would add Senators.
I would propose that California and Texas be split into 3 states and New York and Florida be split into two States.
The split States and new States would add 16 Senators to the Senate.