General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI could not believe many of the comments I received earlier today about General Flynn.
So I sent the following letter to the current, Joint Chief of Staff General Mark A. Milley.
Sir,
I am a retired 20 year active duty military veteran who also served another 21 years in Civil Service Acquisitioning of the latest military weapon systems and support equipment, traveling all over the world to introduce field personnel to the latest hardware and software. I have also served as a a witness in the court martial of a Technical Sargent under my supervision for simply not returning his wife' phone calls, for which charges were fortunately dropped.
For as long as I can remember, the military has routinely recalled retired personnel for court martial for various actions they took while on active duty. In most cases, it is enlisted men and rarely an officer.
General Michael Flynn committed treason while on active duty and again since his retirement. I fail to see why he is not recalled and court martialed as an enlisted man would be.
Very Respectfully yours.
JustAnotherGen
(31,886 posts)May I shared your note with her?
She didn't serve - but my dad was an Officer/Green Beret late 50's to mid/late 70's. She's been appalled at the lack of honor displayed by Flynn.
notinkansas
(1,096 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)hippywife
(22,767 posts)Not long after said pardon was issued, I recall reading that it was not, nor were those issued for Bannon and Roger Stone.
Bettie
(16,126 posts)because you are right, he should face some consequences for his actions.
calimary
(81,466 posts)Im tempted to add that ask to whatever I call my Congressman/Senators about.
Okay, maybe theyre not in a position (or the right committee) to do anything about it.
HOWEVER
that doesnt mean they shouldnt know that its an issue for their constituents. It doesnt mean they shouldnt get a push or at least a nudge about it.
Remember: they may not be able to do anything significant about it. BUT theyre in Washington DC on our nickel. All day everyday theyre gonna be working with somebody who CAN do something about it. Inevitably. And if a drumbeat starts back home, and/or people are starting to call about it, then its on the radar screen. And it just might be something that they decide to have some staffer start looking into it.
AND - word just might start getting around because somebody else in some other Congressmembers district is calling about this same issue too. They go to lunch together and breakfast meetings together and committee meetings together and cocktail parties together and zoom meetings and conference calls together and
And then it starts becoming a thing. A thing that starts demanding more attention.
It could also be that maybe your rep actually IS bothered by the same issue but nobodys called about it so why bother with that because my people are all calling about taxes/trump/security/benefits/voting rights/the weather
But now it turns to hmmm, I guess maybe its not just me, after all. Im starting to get calls about this. Maybe this actually IS something my constituents are bothered about? Maybe I should look into it
THATS why its good to start making noise about it. Were at the bottom of the influence food chain. But if theres enough of us starting to rumble about it, itll get heard and start having an impact higher up that chain. And THATS how changes can be made.
calimary
(81,466 posts)Dont forget the impact your calls have on the staff. The people who answer the phones - in the district and in the DC office. Theyre the ones on the front lines - the ones wholl hear from you first. And they keep notes and tally sheets so they can keep track of the calls. Who, from where, about what, and how many about what. Cuz their boss (the legislator) isnt answering those phones but DOES need to know what his/her constituents are calling about and are pushing for action about. Because that means its something thats demanding his/her attention.
Dont forget this.
COL Mustard
(5,923 posts)Yes, they have the privilege of public service in the Halls of Congress but they're the bottom rung of the ladder. Voice your concerns but don't take your frustrations out on them. Their jobs probably suck in many ways...don't make them suck more.
soldierant
(6,921 posts)I know my congressman's staffters are not only low paid but forced to run personal errands for the Congressman and his wife. That's reom the recently released results of an unvestigation into him
Absolutely be nice to the staffers.
calimary
(81,466 posts)I've never called and been abusive. Just doesn't seem fair to the frontline folks who absolutely do work for pittance - when they're even paid at all. I wonder if a lot of the folks who answer the phones are interns or even volunteers who are working for free. Whoever is answering the phone probably already takes plenty of abuse from other jerks with entitlement complexes who call in.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)That is all.
calimary
(81,466 posts)hippywife
(22,767 posts)to be able to even consider bringing it up with your legislators. Here in OK, it's nothing more than a waste of breath - mine and the hot air, along with a big sack of bullshit, I always get in return.
calimary
(81,466 posts)I'd CALL, Dammit!
I kind like imagining that members of the red-team wrecking crew get calls from the blue teasers and the more they get, the more uncomfortable and surrounded and overpowered they feel. And if they aren't on MY team, I WANT them feeling unbalanced, knocked off their game, like the walls closing in, nervous about what to do, unsure and questioning their positions on the issues.
Destabilize the enemy.
hippywife
(22,767 posts)Only spinning my wheels to no effect.
calimary
(81,466 posts)If you get a shitload of spinning wheels -all spinning about the same complaint, theyre liable to run right over him/her.
hippywife
(22,767 posts)You've no idea what it's like, so let it go.
fightforfreedom
(4,913 posts)As a veteran I cannot post how I feel about Flynn. It would be deleted for being too vulgar.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)No it hasn't.
You are not telling the truth.
In the recent decision saying it is unconstitutional, the US District Court for the District of Columbia said:
"The lack of any Supreme Court case addressing the question is likely due in part to the fact that in the 70-year period since the UCMJ explicitly authorized such jurisdiction, the military has so rarely chosen to exercise it. See Bishop, supra note 3, at 332; J. Mackey Ives & Michael J. Davidson, Court-Martial Jurisdiction Over Retirees Under Articles 2(4) and 2(6): Time to Lighten Up and Tighten Up? , 175 Mil. L. Rev. 1, 11(2003)." Larrabee v. Braithwaite, 502 F. Supp. 3d 322, 330 n.8 (D.D.C. 2020)
Rabrrrrrr
(58,352 posts)That seems rather over the top to go straight to an accusation.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)"Lying" is consciously not telling the truth when one knows it.
Not telling the truth is simply not telling the truth.
The fact of the matter is that in the thread he is complaining about, a link to Larrabee v. Braithwaite was provided, along with a summary of relevant passages. So, it is not as if current, relevant law is unknown to the poster.
It is odd to want the "rule of law" and not actually care what courts have said about it.
If you would like to know exactly what would happen in the proposed scenario, you can too:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.204940/gov.uscourts.dcd.204940.28.0.pdf
As to how "routinely" this happens - that is a factual assertion which is either true or not true.
kcr
(15,320 posts)Strongly implies if not outright states the person is deliberately misleading. Why not simply state they're mistaken?
The connotation of not telling the truth is that theyre lying, and is a bit harsh. Youre mistaken would come across better.
Response to kcr (Reply #11)
Orrex This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)That is absolutely what is implied.
ShazzieB
(16,513 posts)Rabrrrrrr
(58,352 posts)To say "What you are saying is not factual" or "You are saying something that is wrong" or "I think you have misunderstood the facts" is to offer them a space in which they may be speaking falsely but doing so unintentionally.
You offered an accusation.
If you wanted to do so, then fine - have at it. I don't think it's helpful, and we're all on the same side here, so ought to be a little more generous with each other than to just assume the worst possible intentions of someone.
Response to Effete Snob (Reply #7)
Post removed
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)One instance is not "routinely", but perhaps you might identify the case in question. If you are talking about persons being court-martialed after service for acts committed during active service, that is not the same thing.
I actually did research into the question, which is why I pointed out to you that the US District Court for DC considers it unconstitutional.
You want Trump to have had the power to lock up Air Force Reserve Command Colonel Ted Lieu. I get it. It's not happening.
GB_RN
(2,376 posts)Lets not assume we know what the other person is thinking nor put words in the other persons mouth.
How about we dial it back a notch or 10 for the sake of civility?
COL Mustard
(5,923 posts)And court martialled. I wouldn't say it's routine, but it has happened. Army and Navy have both done it, and I think Air Force as well.
bringthePaine
(1,732 posts)Ligyron
(7,639 posts)Saw some ridiculous railroading of enlisted personnel. I used to exercise a bit of judgment of my own when it came to implementing a reduction in pay although I could do nothing about reductions in rank, etc.
One time there was a big discussion and conundrum over how much bread and water to give a jailed private.
I digress.
Any guesses on the statute of limitations for those who have served? That is, if one even exists.
Picaro
(1,525 posts)Flynn should be in Leavenworth at this point. His initial offense was operating as a foreign agent while under consideration for and then while serving as the Presidents National Security Advisor I believe. He went on to become one of the seditious conspiracy principles trying overturn the 2020 presidential election. Hes committed other crimes as well.
Seeing a former lieutenant general in the army behave like this and spout all the crazy shit hes constantly spouting and seeing him clearly be one of the primary conspiracistsand seeing the Army do fuck all about it constantly amazes me.
He should be recalled to active duty and court martialed as you say.
Thanks for writing that letter.
Kudos.
ffr
(22,671 posts)Karadeniz
(22,572 posts)to the code of ethics, his court martial is overdue. I doubt his pardon encompasses all his evils. And why is his brother walking around?
keithbvadu2
(36,906 posts)calimary
(81,466 posts)Right up there with ol Benny-baby.
And as I recall, Benedict Arnold started out as a greatly-admired good guy.
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)Wish more would do the same. Appreciate the effort.
CaptainTruth
(6,601 posts)Escurumbele
(3,402 posts)Maraya1969
(22,497 posts)The Unmitigated Gall
(3,830 posts)My son is serving on a carrier. Seems like every 15 minutes Im checking headlines.
To see this traitor scum walking free and tearing the fabric of our country fills me with a revulsion I really cant describe in words.
brooklynite
(94,728 posts)You are asking the US military to intervene in civilian criminal justice. Can you imagine future military leaders (like General Flynn) arbitrarily deciding to impose military tribunals on civilians they didn't like?.
msfiddlestix
(7,286 posts)Yes, it does, according to the Supreme Court, in its denial of Larrabee's and Dinger's writs of certiorari.
Retired Maj. Gen. Charles Dunlap, former deputy judge advocate general of the Air Force, concurs.
Link: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/02/22/supreme-court-retirees-can-be-court-martialed-crimes-committed-after-service.html
ananda
(28,876 posts)!!!
AverageOldGuy
(1,543 posts)The OP stated something like "the military routinely recalls retired personnel to active duty for court-martial."
Some responses were a bit in-your-face, accusing him of lying or of not knowing what he is talking about;
I served 28 years in the Army. I retired short of 30 because wounds from Vietnam caught up with me and I could not do what my position required. Two tours in the bush in Vietnam with the medals, scars, and bad dreams to prove it.
The OP was not correct in stating "routinely." In fact, the recall to active duty for court-martial is rarely used. Whether he lied, was mistaken, did not check his sources carefully, or simply embellished is for only him to know.
I suggest he post a follow-up, correct his statement, apologize to anyone who was offended.
As for those who called him a liar . . . well . . .
Meanwhile, I'm going to make a mid-afternoon Bloody Mary, watch some Winter Olympics and some YouTube cute kitten videos.
FYI: I wrote to the Chief of Staff of the Army and to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, asking the same thing -- that Flynn be recalled and court-martialed. Not gonna happen. HOWEVER -- if the Jan 6 Committee or DOJ charges him with something, DoD may decide to get involved. Meanwhile, we will just have to live with the ingorant sonofabitch.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)unbelievable as well.
I also was in the military, years ago, but even if I hadnt been - that part strains credulity.
slightlv
(2,840 posts)My ex's first sergeant got involved when he neglected to pick up his young daughter for weekend visitation. The military hierarchy DOES get involved in the civilian lives of present and past military recruits.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Plus, OP said the NCO was court-martialed.
I was in the USAF, and there are punishments for minor offenses that never go to court-martial. I remember a friend getting an Article 15 for some minor offense.
I never said the military didnt get involved in private lives; as a gay woman, Im well aware they did, and no doubt still do.
COL Mustard
(5,923 posts)Look up Army Major General James Grazioplene. He's now a Second Lieutenant. If you haven't heard of him, have a Bloody Mary and get a hot shower ready before you read his tales.
slightlv
(2,840 posts)I can't stomach what Gen Flynn has done. To me, he is a traitor to his country. He has, whether knowingly or not, given aid and comfort to an enemy of this country (Russia), even tho we are not actively in a hot-war type situation. I still consider us to be in a cold war, and tipping towards an active war, what with all the cyberattacks, etc. And I'd still like to see what an unbiased investigation into the election of 2016 would look like. I thought it strange when Trump, upon winning in 2016, immediately turned around and declared his candidacy for 2020. We figured it was for the money. But who knows what other doors it opened for him, as far as planning for a treasonous hit and run at an autocratic "presidency."
COL Mustard
(5,923 posts)I deleted that entry immediately.
stopdiggin
(11,361 posts)Sorry for not being up to speed here.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)why can't he be recalled and disciplined?
RANDYWILDMAN
(2,675 posts)Our government is about how things look not how they should be.
It does not look good to strip a general of his rank etc.
Not a single person saw prison in the 2008 financial meltdown, but we still gave the banks a huge bailout and they are back bigger and fatter then ever.
What Nixon did was not that bad...
Trump didn't kill that many people or break that many laws...
You get the point...Laws and stuff are for the little people
Mr. Scorpio
(73,631 posts)I wholeheartedly agree with EVERYTHING you've just posted.