To those proposing a NATO-Russia war over Ukraine

[Ghost Dog]

and beyond:

Assuming you would want to avoid such a war going nuclear, how do you think that could be avoided?

[lefthandedskyhook]

1. Save the people and kill the monster

not so simple eh?

[ColinC]

2. The question is whether it can be avoided anyways.

A NATO intervention could be the only real way to prevent a scenario and scare Russia back in it's borders. The more likely situation is he takes Ukraine and keeps marching until we are forced to escalate and defend NATO (likely with Nuclear weapons). There is no reason to think Putin stops at Ukraine.

[Ghost Dog]

6. You are saying that, from now on,

such a nuclear war is inevitable?

[ColinC]

8. In my pessimistic, small mind. Probably.

Of course, the new announcement from NATO is promising. The fact they are preparing to respond to anything past Ukraine is a very clear message to Russia.

[iemanja]

3. Europe nor the US is proposing such a military confrontation

So it isn't going to happen, regardless of what some DUers may want.

[qazplm135]

4. Russia

Is going to force a war via the Baltics soon enough

[UTUSN]

5. Yeah, Joe SCABS demolished VINDMAN this A.M. - I championed VINDMAN from Day 1, but lately

have begun to wonder about his judgment on this and other of his positions.

On Morning Schmo, he was received with respect, but when his main opinion was that BIDEN has not done enough, he was asked what else or more would VINDMAN suggest, and he was tentative and then came up with the NATO engagement (war). Joe SCABS took him to pieces. VINDMAN petered out and had no comeback.

Now, I was cheering VINDMAN during and since the Drumpf impeachment, and even today if I had to choose between him and SCABS, I'd choose VINDMAN, but am now doubtful about him.

[EndlessWire]

9. But, this is EXACTLY why

Putin is taking Ukraine and attempting to intimidate the world, warning of a nuclear war if we intervene.

Do we want the world controlled by Putin and Xi? Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do. We are not fools. We do not want war. But, you cannot let Putin take over the world while you sit idle, and hope that the Hitler-like entity stops at Poland or the Baltics.

We never should have allowed him to take Crimea or parts of Georgia. Now all he needs to do is talk tough and threaten nukes, and he either gets territory he wants, or other concessions that he wants.

I applaud this new warfare, sanctions out the ass until he quits. But, he is never going to give back Ukraine. Let us cry for Ukraine, because we are not doing ENOUGH to help them. They didn't need pretty speeches; they needed help on the ground.

Eff Putin, eff Xi, and all that helped them. It's crazy that world peace hinges on the whims of a madman because we couldn't find an excuse to help hidden in all those documents.

[UTUSN]

11. "world controlled by Putin and Xi" - none of us want that. I'm hoping PUTEEN might be canceled.

[EndlessWire]

12. Yes, that would be helpful

I'd rather see him hauled in front of the International Criminal Court and let him explain why he killed all those people, a mass murderer, and then thrown into jail for 50 years.

[UTUSN]

14. His ilk don't think there's anything for them to explain.

And the way things have been going, it's not that far fetched to imagine that Drumpf might end up in some position to give him a Pardon.

[EndlessWire]

15. LOL! n/t

[PortTack]

7. President Zelensky does NOT want NATO or US boots on the ground. And with good reason

If NATO and Russia go at it over Ukrainian land, it would leave the country a bombed out shell, or worse

[EndlessWire]

10. This is NOT true.

Zelensky has been BEGGING for help, for some country to stand up with them. He has pleaded with countries to help them. So, please be careful when you post something like this.

[ruet]

17. Precision Bombing of Russian Supply Lines...

coupled with CAP and CAS for Ukrainian forces could, in theory, push Russian forces back behind their borders. Ukraine would also be helped greatly by an influx of NATO Mobile SAM systems and MNPDS.

[Ghost Dog]

19. In that case Russia says it would strike the bases

those bombs came from, and their command and control.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

13. I don't know what the right thing to do is...

But the line of reasoning above leads to a few questions:

But by the logic, how do we ever counter aggression by a nuclear power?

If Russia invades the Baltic nations next, do we also say we can't defend them, because Putin has nuclear weapons?

Why can Ukraine fight Russia without starting a nuclear war, but NATO can't?

Why do we even have NATO if we can never use it against Russia?

[ruet]

16. By Not Using Nuclear Weapons?

Degrading the military strength of Russia does not mean it, as a country, need be annihilated. If Russia were to use nuclear weapons, well, they would be annihilated. ...as would we all.

[Ghost Dog]

18. Before permitting an "existential" degradation of military strength

to occur to either of them, both Russia and the USA would go nuclear, is my understanding of military doctrine on both sides.

So, just from the effects of the ensuing several years of "nuclear winter", not permitting crops to grow, in addition to the economic and social collapse and other "collateral damage", it would indeed be all over, for a long time, for civilised homo sapiens.

[ruet]

20. No Existential Threat Needed.

Just the routing of the force that is currently operating in and around Ukraine. If losing said force is an existential threat to Russia, it shouldn't have been committed to that battle. That force is reported to have shaky moral anyways. A few days of NATO airpower pounding them might be enough to completely shatter it.

[Ghost Dog]

21. I think Russia would understand any NATO attack to be existential, though,

and would immediately counter-attack in an escalatory fashion. So it would be sensible to have a means to prevent that happening before committing to such a course of action.

[marie999]

22. NATO will not use its military to save Ukraine.

Basically, it is that to them, saving Ukraine is not worth the risk of an all-out war. If Russia attacks any NATO country which I doubt will happen NATO has to respond and Putin knows this. The man is not insane. He knows war with NATO can only end badly for all of us.

[Ghost Dog]

23. Thanks for that, marie999.

If Russia attacks NATO, or if NATO attacks Russia, it is all over.