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Wicked Blue

(5,802 posts)
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:38 PM Apr 2022

Report of poisonous substance dropped on Mariupol

Comment in thread by Reddit poster on r/ukrainian Conflict:
IneptProfessional OP
18 min. ago

"The victims have respiratory failure, vestibulo-atactic syndrome. The consequences of using an unknown substance are being clarified."


Also on this Reddit thread:


And from Ukrainian Pravda:

"Russians have been threatening to trap Ukrainian fighters at the "Azovstal" plant in Mariupol and use chemical weapons against them.
The 36th Separate Marine Brigade, which is involved in defending Mariupol from Russian forces, has published a video address to Ukrainians in the Russian language. The statement said that 11 April could be the last battle for all defenders of Mariupol, and that the Ukrainian military command had not contacted the fighters for two weeks.
The Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valerii Zaluzhnyi later reacted, saying that the command had contact with the defending forces in Mariupol. He added that the details of the defence operation of Ukrainian defenders should not be the subject of public discussion."


Kyiv Independent

Monday, April 11 10:42 PM
external Azov: Russia used poisonous substance against Ukrainian troops in Mariupol.

The substance has been distributed by a drone, and its victims have shortness of breath and vestibullocerebellar ataxia, the Azov regiment said on April 11. It may be Russia’s first known use of chemical weapons in Ukraine.


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Report of poisonous substance dropped on Mariupol (Original Post) Wicked Blue Apr 2022 OP
I would not be surprised if Putin goes to tactical doc03 Apr 2022 #1
know what? bluestarone Apr 2022 #3
I agree with your concern Wicked Blue Apr 2022 #5
Sensationalism! ruet Apr 2022 #8
We know what Russia's goal is because they've stated it. Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #34
+1 2naSalit Apr 2022 #43
I disagree. James48 Apr 2022 #44
1. Not May Day, Victory Day May 9; 2. A few tactical nukes won't Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2022 #15
I honestly think it's only a matter of time. gldstwmn Apr 2022 #48
If this is true is changes everything ripcord Apr 2022 #2
The rape of toddlers didn't change anything, so use of poison probably won't either. Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #4
👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻 onecaliberal Apr 2022 #38
The rape of toddlers, the bombing of maternity hospitals, mass kidnapping .... TomSlick Apr 2022 #64
Yep. Threaten nukes, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how horrific. Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #67
NATO's indifference is mostly a result of dependence on Russian oil and gas. TomSlick Apr 2022 #68
Russia and China both assume the West is too dependent upon Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #77
But the use of Chemical Weapons in war has its own Convention and rules. James48 Apr 2022 #45
To me, this is way over the red line. This is chemical warfare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At minimal, give RKP5637 Apr 2022 #6
We Let Syria Cross That, Clearly Delineated, Line. ruet Apr 2022 #9
Different people/players. n/t RKP5637 Apr 2022 #13
Nothing Will Come of It. -NT- ruet Apr 2022 #14
I think you may be right! n/t RKP5637 Apr 2022 #18
As I recall Mad_Machine76 Apr 2022 #23
YES! Rebl2 Apr 2022 #25
Just as our intelligence predicted. GoCubsGo Apr 2022 #7
Exactly. lagomorph777 Apr 2022 #28
Shit! Bayard Apr 2022 #10
Good info! Any idea what substances could cause these symptoms? nt Wicked Blue Apr 2022 #11
Any of a number of nerve agents. James48 Apr 2022 #47
Nope. James48 Apr 2022 #46
Indeed Bayard Apr 2022 #58
If true there is nothing that can be done. 48656c6c6f20 Apr 2022 #12
Putin will never do the right thing IMHO Wicked Blue Apr 2022 #16
I don't think he gives a damn about the sanctions. He's a KGB sociopath on the warpath on a RKP5637 Apr 2022 #17
The sanctions haven't touched Putrid. onecaliberal Apr 2022 #40
unconfirmed report that it is sarin or novichok steve2470 Apr 2022 #19
I've seen speculation that it's Sarin nt Wicked Blue Apr 2022 #20
This has always been my line in the sand for our military involvement. Akoto Apr 2022 #21
If Putler has used sarin or novichok, then we should supply Ukraine with VX nerve gas. roamer65 Apr 2022 #31
STOP STOP STOP James48 Apr 2022 #49
We have a moral obligation. We turned a blind eye for too long once to a different genocide. Akoto Apr 2022 #50
wrong. James48 Apr 2022 #52
Then here is my suggestion: make it a defensive situation. Akoto Apr 2022 #54
Under what authority would you send American troops James48 Apr 2022 #56
I think we have to agree to disagree about whether we should intercede now. nt Akoto Apr 2022 #57
Except for one small detail. James48 Apr 2022 #60
Unfortunately, my FL congressman is Brian Mast. Good luck with that one. :) Akoto Apr 2022 #62
I wish we had a weapon Mr. Evil Apr 2022 #22
Good idea! Katcat Apr 2022 #33
Some types of fentanyl can be used that way. Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #36
After all the moronitude at Chernobyl, Wicked Blue Apr 2022 #59
I was talking about the Ukrainian side. Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #63
Knowing them, Mr. Evil Apr 2022 #66
Quite possibly. Putin was apparently behind the apartment bombings, Crunchy Frog Apr 2022 #70
If you have the agent... jmowreader Apr 2022 #39
Russia has this AND used it in 2002. James48 Apr 2022 #51
Damn. I didn't know that. Mr. Evil Apr 2022 #65
Killing over a hundred hostages in the process, and fifty terrorists. eppur_se_muova Apr 2022 #71
This claim needs to be verified by our intelligence community. Yorkie Mom Apr 2022 #24
Stop Putin. Nululu Apr 2022 #26
Well Putin is already nominated for war crimes andym Apr 2022 #27
It's Putin warring. Should be expected. NT SmallFry Apr 2022 #29
Bad, bad news if true. roamer65 Apr 2022 #30
Lot of uncertainty around these reports. WhiskeyGrinder Apr 2022 #32
Not at all surprised. honest.abe Apr 2022 #35
Need more info scipan Apr 2022 #37
Earlier today: scipan Apr 2022 #41
More info on why chemical weapons might have been used: scipan Apr 2022 #55
Update: scipan Apr 2022 #42
So this claim is from a white nationalist (Biletsky). David__77 Apr 2022 #72
Yes. A reason to put less weight on what they say. scipan Apr 2022 #80
Putin needs to end. gldstwmn Apr 2022 #53
If true, NATO needs to send troops to Ukraine but not cross into Russia. marie999 Apr 2022 #61
Nope. Biden will stand strong. David__77 Apr 2022 #73
Meanwhile Russians are torturing and raping women and children. Sending women and children to camps marie999 Apr 2022 #76
Someone had posted EndlessWire Apr 2022 #69
Biden said the US wasn't engaging directly. David__77 Apr 2022 #75
I'm pretty sure he said NATO would respond. EndlessWire Apr 2022 #78
Maybe a war caucus can form in congress to advocate for US direct engagement. David__77 Apr 2022 #74
You see EndlessWire Apr 2022 #79


(35,256 posts)
1. I would not be surprised if Putin goes to tactical
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:40 PM
Apr 2022

nukes now he is desperate to get a win by May Day.


(16,815 posts)
3. know what?
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:45 PM
Apr 2022

I was thinking today, what if POOTY decided to drop a nuke in Ukraine? What the hell would the answer to that be? scary shit here!

Wicked Blue

(5,802 posts)
5. I agree with your concern
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:46 PM
Apr 2022

To me the withdrawal of Russian troops from the Kyiv area to the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine points to the possibility of something nasty planned for the just-vacated areas.

Chemicals, tactical nuclear, something deadly to wipe out as many Ukrainians as possible.


(10,037 posts)
8. Sensationalism!
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:56 PM
Apr 2022

The use of a tactical nuclear weapon would warrant an immediate response by the US and NATO. The limited use of nuclear weapons is not a winning strategy. I'm confused as to what people think Russia's goal is here. Take over Ukraine or cease to exists as an entity entirely. They do have goals here people.

Patiently waiting for the "but we were going to use them if Russia attacked by the Fulda Gap. ...60 years ago"


(4,421 posts)
44. I disagree.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:14 PM
Apr 2022

A nuke om a non-NATO country does NOT invoke Article 5, nor does our US Constitution provide for the President to launch a counter-strike against Russia. That would take a declaration of war, and we all know that a declaration of war is highly unlikely.

Use of Chemicals would be a different level of concern, but again, would require Congress to authorize the use of force. I don't know if there is sufficient World opinion, or US public consensus at this point. We'd probably have to draw it out for weeks while our Congress debates whether or not to declare war or authorize force.

The fact that Ukraine is NOT a NATO member right now makes it very, very difficult to justify use of force, even for something as dastardly as use of Nuclear or Chemical weapons.

The UN and the International Courts are the only real hope for justice to be administered, I'm afraid.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,886 posts)
15. 1. Not May Day, Victory Day May 9; 2. A few tactical nukes won't
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:08 PM
Apr 2022

2. A few tactical nukes would not change the outcome of the war, but would change Putin's outcomes for the worse.


(4,575 posts)
48. I honestly think it's only a matter of time.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:29 PM
Apr 2022

He seems desperate for a fight with NATO and keeps doing things to try to provoke them. He is an absolute madman.


(5,183 posts)
2. If this is true is changes everything
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:41 PM
Apr 2022

Poisons are considered chemical weapons which fall under the banner of weapons of mass destruction, hopefully it isn't true.


(11,078 posts)
64. The rape of toddlers, the bombing of maternity hospitals, mass kidnapping ....
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 09:48 PM
Apr 2022

NATO, including the US, is frozen to inaction because - well, reasons.

The lesson Putin has learned is that NATO is a hollow vessel and he may act with impunity. Putin is limited only by the extent of his own imagination.


(46,193 posts)
67. Yep. Threaten nukes, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how horrific.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 10:27 PM
Apr 2022

It has been reported that China is now working on stockpiling more nukes, so they are learning the lesson all too well.

China and Russia will run circles around the West in the 21st century. And their imaginations will continue to be shocking.

(In terms of the "reasons" for NATO's indifference to the plight of Ukraine, looking like it is financial. They have too much money to lose if they anger Putin. Germany I am looking at you.)


(11,078 posts)
68. NATO's indifference is mostly a result of dependence on Russian oil and gas.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 10:59 PM
Apr 2022

The US remains frozen by the threat of nukes and the desire to maintain NATO solidarity. All the while, Ukrainian children die.


(46,193 posts)
77. Russia and China both assume the West is too dependent upon
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 09:31 AM
Apr 2022

them to fight back. Too intertwined financially. China holds a lot of US debt.
Russia supplies gas and oil.

China also hopes to make the yuan a global currency with gold to back it. Positioning itself so that financial sanctions won't hurt. Or will hurt the West equally.

Russia and China seduces the West with money, goods and services. Scares them with the threat of nukes.

Then China and Russia can carve up the world into spheres of influence and power. Using the most horrific and barbarian means possible.

While the West just stands by and watches it happen.

American citizens give up a lot to have the best military in the world. We don't have the same standard of living and benefits of other industrialized nations.
Health care, leave, retirement, childcare, etc.

And now we know our sacrifices mean nothing.


(4,421 posts)
45. But the use of Chemical Weapons in war has its own Convention and rules.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:20 PM
Apr 2022

Since the signing of the Chemical weapons treaty among 193 countries, the USA can't just go and send chemical weapons back at the Russians.

There is a set investigation and enforcement protocol located here:



(67,073 posts)
6. To me, this is way over the red line. This is chemical warfare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At minimal, give
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:48 PM
Apr 2022

Ukraine the damn planes they want!


(24,382 posts)
23. As I recall
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:53 PM
Apr 2022

Obama wanted to do something but then Republicans (and even a few Democrats?) warned him not to respond militarily.


(32,067 posts)
7. Just as our intelligence predicted.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:54 PM
Apr 2022

And, just as President Biden warned us about a few weeks ago that Putin was going to engage in chemical warfare. Looks like he was right, once again.


(21,951 posts)
10. Shit!
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 03:59 PM
Apr 2022

Game, over, Putin. I believe this is over NATO's line.

Symptoms of the vestibulo-atactic syndrome
This pathology - a combination of motor and vestibular disorders due to violations of the general and cerebral circulation. It is quite common, many of its symptoms have been noticed in itself, without giving them much importance. If, when walking, a person begins to feel dizzy, he throws from side to side, coordination of movements is disturbed - this is an occasion to immediately consult a doctor.

What constitutes a vestibulo-atactic syndrome and what are its causes we have figured out. What are the signs and complaints of patients that enable the neurologist to diagnose ataxia?

Ischemic disorders in the work of the brain are dangerous because in the early stages they can simply not be noticed, since the first symptoms that appear can correspond to various disorders of the patient's health and condition. A person can simply not pay attention to individual cases of malaise. This makes it difficult to timely diagnose and treat diseases that are the companions of the vestibulo-atactic syndrome.

The first signs of the initial stage of the disease are:

Frequent dizziness, especially when walking.
Flicker and "flies" before the eyes.
Nausea and vomiting.
In later stages, motor disorders appear:

Loss of balance.
Throwing from side to side.
Involuntary twitching of the eyelid
In addition, many patients complain about:

Deterioration in the quantity and quality of sleep.
Chronic fatigue, loss of strength.
Noise or ringing in the ears.
Unpleasant sensations with prolonged preservation of the same position of the body.



(4,421 posts)
46. Nope.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:23 PM
Apr 2022

Ukraine is NOT a NATO country, and the NATO treaty ONLY applies to the defense of NATO countries. There is nothing that would necessarily trigger a Chemical Weapons response, AND, to do so risks full scale war with Russia.

Congress would have to authorize any military response to the attack of a NON-NATO country.



(7,638 posts)
12. If true there is nothing that can be done.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:06 PM
Apr 2022

The madman of the really long table coild use nukes if there were a retaliation. So, as with baby killing and raping, we sit back and let the sanctions force Pootin to do the right thing.


(67,073 posts)
17. I don't think he gives a damn about the sanctions. He's a KGB sociopath on the warpath on a
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:10 PM
Apr 2022

mission, he feels nothing.


(4,266 posts)
21. This has always been my line in the sand for our military involvement.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:35 PM
Apr 2022

Last edited Mon Apr 11, 2022, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

If they used chemical weapons or nuclear (that does need to be credibly verified), then I felt we had no choice but to turn to the military and ask them to deploy. That is a line which cannot be crossed. Russia has been allowed to get away with too many horrors already.

Inevitably, someone will ask if I'll be deploying. That seems to be the trend toward those who favor military involvement. Answer is that no, I won't. I am disabled under law and I doubt they'll find much use for a soldier with the use of only one leg and a need for multiple medications to kinda-sorta hold torturous pain at bay. So, yes, I'm advocating others go without my own butt being put on the line. It doesn't make the opinion any more or less valid, it remains just that, my opinion.

I hope, once verified, that this is the catalyst for something to finally be more directly done in protecting the Ukranians. They have fought tooth and nail but as the Russians escalate in their methods, they can only keep that up for so long.


(4,421 posts)
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:30 PM
Apr 2022

We ARE NOT THE SOLE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD. We don't act unilaterally.

We defend NATO nations. Ukraine is NOT a NATO member, and we have no treaty obligation to launch a chemical or nuclear response. ONLY CONGRESS can authorize something like that-

Is it terrible? Yes.

Is it enough to have our soldiers go engage in World War III? Ah, no. Not without long and hard debate, which hasn't even started.


(4,266 posts)
50. We have a moral obligation. We turned a blind eye for too long once to a different genocide.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:31 PM
Apr 2022

I would have thought we'd have learned our lesson from that. We mourn it, we teach our children about it, we swear that it will never happen again. Why are we letting it happen again, right now?

We've already let him slaughter them helplessly in the streets, half bury them in mass graves, bomb hospitals and train stations, and god knows what else I'm forgetting. There has to be a line where decency demands we intervene. No, they aren't NATO. Yes, we do support them or we wouldn't be involved as we have been.


(4,421 posts)
52. wrong.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:35 PM
Apr 2022

Yes, we have a moral obligation to respond- but we also have LEGAL barriers to prevent World Wars from accidently starting.

Attacking or killing Russians would be an act of war on our part, and Congress is the only entity who can declare war. It's in the Constitution.

Yes, it's frustrating.

Yes, it's the way is has to be.


(4,266 posts)
54. Then here is my suggestion: make it a defensive situation.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:39 PM
Apr 2022

Deploy our soldiers within Ukraine, but have them go nowhere. They are just there to shore up Ukraine's military in logistical and other ways.

If the SOB deploys chemical weapons again (if he indeed did) or a nuke, knowing we're there, then he truly is indiscriminate and will have brought us into it while we were there under strictly defensive/supportive purposes. Put him to the test. If he's wise, it would provoke him to be more judicious in his actions. Right now, he's massacring them and nobody's doing anything except shipping them supplies. Obviously, Putin does not care that they have the weapons we're sending them. It has to be stepped up before they're all dead, we can't hem and haw for months longer.


(4,421 posts)
56. Under what authority would you send American troops
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 06:59 PM
Apr 2022

Into a war zone?

Because that right there is a problem without Congressional authorization.


(4,421 posts)
60. Except for one small detail.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 07:20 PM
Apr 2022

I spent 20 years in uniform, and retired, and technically, I'm still on the books, as a retiree, to be recalled and sent wherever in the world YOU are about to send me

And I'm telling you right now- without a Congressional authorization, I can't get my orders cut or weapons issued to me.

Our troops today are in NATO countries, to defend NATO countries. We have a ratified NATO treaty, so if Russia attacks a NATO country, there is legal authority for me to go.

But there is NOT legal authority to send me to Ukraine at this point . Not without a Congressional authorization.

I have been seriously considering going on my own now. But at this point, I think it's close enough to full out war that I really ought to be preparing to go as a US soldier, rather than as a Ukrainian Foreign Legion volunteer.
Start telling your Congressman if you think I should go into Ukraine, because a lot of them already have noted that a Use of Force authorization is going to be needed.

Note the position of the American Legion- they are correct-

'“The American Legion was founded after World War I ravaged Europe,” American Legion National Commander Paul E. Dillard said. “We are extremely concerned about the horrific consequences that occur during war. There is absolutely no justification for Russia’s aggression. Our resolution calls for peace in Ukraine and, in conjunction with NATO and the Russian Federation, supports a European security architecture which considers the national security interests of all parties.”

According to Resolution 1: Statement on Ukraine, The American Legion will not support related U.S. combat operations unless the president clearly explains why such operations are in “our vital national interests” and mission guidelines are established to include a clear exit strategy. The resolution also states that the organization’s support for such a mission be contingent on congressional authorization for the use of military force and that American forces be commanded only by U.S. officers.

The resolution also makes clear that the organization would not support combat deployments of U.S. troops “in defense of non-NATO member countries,” because of Russia’s actions.

“We agree with the White House’s decision to not send troops to Ukraine, as we continue to support a strong national defense and a strategy of vigilance,” Dillard added. “This resolution once again reaffirms our unwavering support for our men and women in uniform and our efforts to ensure their well-being. The American Legion is always here to assist veterans in crisis.”

Source : https://www.legion.org/security/255060/american-legion-calls-peace-ukraine-issues-stance-strategy

formal statement by the American Legion in full:


Mr. Evil

(2,798 posts)
22. I wish we had a weapon
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 04:45 PM
Apr 2022

that could be fired from the shoulder or from a mortar or even dropped that possessed a sleeping agent that was slightly heavier than air. It would take about 10-15 minutes to take effect and render any personnel in that proximity to go to sleep. Then you just walk in, zip-tie all of the enemy, throw them into trucks and haul them off to a prisoner of war camp. No deaths, no destruction, clear conscience and no more nearby enemies.

Just a thought.


(224 posts)
33. Good idea!
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 05:26 PM
Apr 2022

With all we know about weapons and tge human body it looks like something could be developed.

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
36. Some types of fentanyl can be used that way.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 05:34 PM
Apr 2022

I believe Russia used it in the theater hostage incident. Of course it killed lots of people, so I'm sure it would have to be carefully calibrated.

Wicked Blue

(5,802 posts)
59. After all the moronitude at Chernobyl,
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 07:16 PM
Apr 2022

I don't think the Russians are capable of carefully calibrating anything

Crunchy Frog

(26,572 posts)
70. Quite possibly. Putin was apparently behind the apartment bombings,
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 12:04 AM
Apr 2022

and their "rescue" of the Beslan hostages left hundreds dead.

They at least acted in accordance with their regard for human life.


(50,501 posts)
39. If you have the agent...
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 05:46 PM
Apr 2022

…get some smoke rounds for artillery or mortars, dump out the smoke agent and refill with your sleeping agent. May I recommend DMSO mixed with LSD?


(36,245 posts)
71. Killing over a hundred hostages in the process, and fifty terrorists.
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 04:00 AM
Apr 2022

Even mild anesthetics can kill if not given in carefully controlled circumstances.




(3,334 posts)
61. If true, NATO needs to send troops to Ukraine but not cross into Russia.
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 07:22 PM
Apr 2022

Use missiles to destroy Russian troops and installations inside Russia.



(3,334 posts)
76. Meanwhile Russians are torturing and raping women and children. Sending women and children to camps
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 08:34 AM
Apr 2022

How many Ukrainians have to be killed before NATO does something, or is NATO going to allow Russia to completely destroy Ukraine?


(6,423 posts)
69. Someone had posted
Mon Apr 11, 2022, 11:05 PM
Apr 2022

on a bulletin board that Russia was now using chlorine gas today. You note everything and then wait for confirmation. This is NOT GOOD. Didn't Biden say that NATO would respond to this?


(23,303 posts)
75. Biden said the US wasn't engaging directly.
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 05:57 AM
Apr 2022

And he has stuck to it. I’m glad he has fortitude. He sent the right message and took the right action.


(23,303 posts)
74. Maybe a war caucus can form in congress to advocate for US direct engagement.
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 05:55 AM
Apr 2022

I suspect such caucus would be quite small, and possibly soon politically endangered.


(6,423 posts)
79. You see
Tue Apr 12, 2022, 12:27 PM
Apr 2022

the US should never go to war again without a coalition of nations that approve. This is a NATO issue. And, a UN issue. Not that the UN will act.

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