Amazing Photo: Hurricane does not deter guards at Tomb of the Unknown Soldier

[ProfessionalLeftist]

[darkangel218]

1. How can they stand like that without moving..

I mean, you can get blood clots from not moving your feet.. I don't know I think they should move around.

[Baitball Blogger]

2. They don't stand around for long periods. They march back and forth.

What you're seeing is the changing of the guards.

I'm going by memory. I could be wrong.

[darkangel218]

4. Ahh ok, that makes more sense.

[sarge43]

11. You're right. Once the guard is posted, they "walk the mat".

Depending upon time of day and the season, the duty is from a half hour to two hours. Those men are pulling the half hour rotation.

[grantcart]

14. more details

http://www.snopes.com/military/unknown.asp

[Aristus]

51. Deep vein thrombosis is more likely if one sits for long periods, rather than standing.

In the Army, we were taught to not lock our knees while standing at attention, but that's about it.

The Tomb Guards, totally, TOTALLY Rock!

[Evasporque]

128. old pic...taken last year....nt

[Bucky]

244. That's why you sometimes hear of those guards in London fainting.

[kstewart33]

3. Thank you for posting this picture.

With several veterans in my family, it's a touching reminder of those who serve this country.

[nolabear]

5. Uh, yeah. Get those kids in out of that. That's just stupid.

There should be a standing down ceremony and a cup of hot chocolate. The living trump the dead every time imo.

[obxhead]

40. I agree completely.

Do they do that nonsense in a lightning storm too?

Seems like a waste of the sacrifice the unknown soldier made for future generations to guard a tomb.

Guard the living, not tombs.

[Arugula Latte]

70. Yeah. What is the point of standing there?

If they don't have duty helping people evacuate or something useful, at least they should just get themselves safe.

[speedoo]

148. People who have never served do not understand the military.

Particularly the concept of honoring the fallen.

Therefore, they should be very careful in offering their opinions on this subject.

[cliffordu]

163. Yep. You are exactly fucking right.

[msanthrope]

192. You know, I never served, but I have the good sense to not mock a gravesite.

I wouldn't let my fellow non-serving DUers off so easily.

[Aerows]

209. I don't either

it is crass and makes all of us look bad.

[Arugula Latte]

262. People are not "mocking" a gravesite.

Good gawd, the overreaction on this thread is ridiculous.

[msanthrope]

263. Yes, they are. And one of them has already been banned. nt

[quinnox]

267. who got banned over this

I would be interested who and what the reason given for it was

[msanthrope]

278. Kindly Refrain, who got a pizza delivered

after it flipped out on this thread, attacked Will Pitt, and then posted that threads like this make it want to vote 3rd party.

[MADem]

284. Now that was long overdue. What a rude person.

I hope his pizza was delivered with extra sauce and some scalding hot cheese.

That guy was just vicious. Mean, nasty, dismissive, always quick with snark and an insult. He thrived on that kind of shit.

He'll be back, though. That sort just loves to rise from the dead.

[Arugula Latte]

197. It's a common sense issue to me.

The safety of these men should trump symbolism, that's all. Symbolism can take a break for a day or two.

Frankly I think it's ridiculous how people are overreacting to expressions of concern -- it's turned into "we hate the soldiers."

[speedoo]

199. Your common sense is not relevant to discussing how the military honors its fallen.

The military takes care to make sure those standing guard are kept safe. That's all you need to know.

[George II]

279. They're fucking VOLUNTEERS! Do some research before you make an ass of yourself!!!

[Arugula Latte]

280. Wow.

Like I said, the overreaction to this thread is ridiculous.

[still_one]

214. That is not true. Most duers understand and honor those who served

[speedoo]

218. Your key word is "most".

As you can see from reading this thread, there are several DUers who have no clue. Those clueless DUers are who I am addressing my comment to.

[still_one]

225. I know

[Bucky]

246. I get it. The sacrifice the Unknowns made makes the rain seem like nothing.

It's not all non-vets who don't get the ideals. I agree it's an inspiring photo.

But I do hope they come in when the winds get too bad.

[calimary]

253. Hey, you don't have to have served to appreciate this.

I've never served, myself, so I'm scarcely one to comment on these things in any event. I spent far more of my energy, military-wise, trying to keep our boys and girls OUT of war. But it seems to me this whole Tomb-of-Unknowns affair is just a demonstration of Duty. Devotion to duty. Selfless devotion to duty. Sacrifice. Service. All to something bigger.

True, it's really just symbolic in this case. And as a mom, I too have the instinct to call them all inside where it's warm and dry and safe. But this is something else entirely. And sometimes symbolism is just important.

[JohnnyRingo]

162. They volunteer for this duty. It's an honor.

Go tell them otherwise.

[still_one]

212. It is to honor those who served and died, many who were drafted, but all who served their country

And gave the ultimate sacrifice

They should be honored

[Autumn]

215. They are safe. And guarding that tomb? It's a sacred honor.

Resting in that tomb is a fallen, unknown bother.

They are not just standing there, they are doing just what they need to do.

It doesn't get any more useful than that.

[Hepburn]

320. Respect for those who have died defending not only our country, but the rights we have as Americans.

I am a non-military person -- but I understand. EVERY male in my family has served -- except one cousin who is handicapped. I lost friends in VN and still cry over them. It's respect for those we lost and for those who served.

The answer to your "why" is RESPECT.

[Stinky The Clown]

234. If you don't get, you don't get it.

[Ter]

346. You should be thrown off this board

Disgusting comment.

[sibelian]

350. Well, possibly he should be admonished.

I think a proper ban's a bit OTT.

[pinboy3niner]

361. No, nolabear is expressing a valid concern for the troops guarding the Tomb

But like many, she is unaware that the U.S. Army also values the safety of its troops and has a contingency plan to bring the Guards indoors when their safety is jeopardized.

Ban nolabear? surely, you jest.

[sarge43]

6. Guards are present at all times.

Only a small fraction of the volunteers (it's strictly volunteer duty) ever qualify. It's a singular duty and honor.

[Ikonoklast]

58. Huge honor.

A duty post highly prized by those that seek and qualify for.

[MADem]

99. I agree. I have a great deal of respect for those young people. nt

[cthulu2016]

7. The unknown soldier has never once been stolen.

True fact.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. So, what are they protecting?

A question I asked myself while marching a post guarding....nothing.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. From what I remember, there were

It is a tremendous sign of respect, shown to fallen soldiers, who are represented by three unidentified soldiers from three wars.

[dipsydoodle]

17. Respect

.

[msanthrope]

31. It is a show of respect, honoring the fallen for their sacrifice. The 101st Chairborne

forgets this---forgets those who fought and died, so easily.

The 3rd escorts the caskets that come into Dover A.F.B. Are those soldiers not worth protecting? Not worth honoring?

They escorted J.F.K. to his resting place, and continue to honor him. You think that is doing "nothing?"

[stopbush]

74. I guess it comes down to who gets to decide what qualifies as showing respect.

Standing around in a driving rainstorm doesn't qualify in my books. It just looks silly. Why not decide that showing respect also involves erecting a weather-proof structure next to the tomb so the living soldiers have a place to get out of the weather? I'm sure the dead won't complain.

But then, we're a country that puts a lot of credence into taking a moment of silence to pray to non-existent gods, so I guess standing around in bad weather is par for the course. Most people like it, but ultimately, it's pretty meaningless.

[sibelian]

354. I'm becoming increasingly irritated with this.

"I guess it comes down to who gets to decide what qualifies as showing respect."

Who do you think made that decision in the case of the soldiers in that picture?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

93. Here's what your avatar said about it:

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

Albert Einstein

[msanthrope]

103. You think these soldiers are marching joyfully to music? Go read the Einstein-Szilard Letter

and tell me more about Einstein and his pacificism.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. Something he deeply regretted for the rest of his life.

No, I doubt they marched joyfully to the music. They were probably just ordinary GI's who wished they were someplace else and certainly didn't want to die for something as nebulous as "my country".

I spent four long years being a GI and I never met anyone who wanted to die for their country and be buried in a monument with a few guards walking around it. Nor, did I meet many who liked marching with or without music.

[msanthrope]

115. Then if you served, stop showing such disrespect to the people who

serve in this manner. Stop showing disrespect for the dead--those who died fulfilling their oaths.

This thread is a disappointment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. I'm not disrescting the dead. I'm disrespecting those who glorify war.

And, force men and now women to kill people they don't know, have nothing against, and would probably like, who are likewise being forced to kill and die for their countries.

This thread is a dogwhistle to those who love to wave the flag and glorify war.

[DemocratsForProgress]

136. Actually, this thread was an unintentional dog whistle to

people who think their progressivism gives them free rein to act like douchebags. There isn't a single poster in this thread "waving the flag and glorifying war."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

164. Then why the soldiers "guarding" it with guns?

Why not bagladies with umbrellas?

It's symbolism making war glorious and honorable and the poor guys who were finagled into fighting into "heroes".

[msanthrope]

191. The 3rd carry fixed bayonets to commemorate Cerro Gordo. I wonder what you would make of

the spontoon.

[George II]

281. It doesn't make war "glorious", but it sure as shit makes it HONORABLE

[msanthrope]

180. You are disrespecting a gravesite with your uneccessary commentary. A gravesite.

You could have simply trashed the thread--but oh, no, you courageously chose to comment on a gravesite.

Yeah--that's disrespect of the dead.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

202. But, I didn't.

I'm "disrespecting" the glorification of war and the monsters who sent those in the tomb to kill and die.

[Aerows]

219. You did

And you don't have the right to disrespect people that died in our nation's service. You never have that right, nor to disrespect the parent's, friends and loved ones. Which is what you did.

[msanthrope]

229. No--you are disrespecting the soldiers who are tasked with care of that tomb.

You aren't fooling anyone.

[whathehell]

270. Honey, you seem to be the only one here who see "glorification of war" in this thread,

[EX500rider]

275. "the monsters who sent those in the tomb to kill and die..."

Monsters like Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt?

Since they are the wars that had the most M.I.A.'s

[jmowreader]

149. The 3rd is also Ready Brigade to defend Washington

They do all the Army ceremonial duties in the DC area (if you are buried at Arlington, the 3rd forms the funeral detail) but they are a fully armed, well trained infantry brigade...which is extremely hard to join.

[msanthrope]

194. Yep--quite familiar with The Old Guard. The disrespect on this thread is sickening. nt

[Aristus]

56. Are you kidding? This is America.

Without the guards, people would be spraying graffiti on the tomb, chipping off parts of it for souvenirs, taking a dump in front of it at night as part of fraternity initiations, you name it.

Guarding the tomb is not just honoring the dead; it's a necessity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. In a hurricane?

I rather doubt there will be many folks out with spray cans or chisels.

[Aristus]

107. In all weathers, night and day, around the clock, forever.

The oath the Tomb Guard volunteers take does not include the words "...unless, of course, I really don't feel like it."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. Yeah, I know it doesn't.

Something I sure as hell regretted when walking post or any of the other stupid things the military required of me. It would have been a real pleasure to tell the bosses to shove it when they ordered us to do things as dumb as walking around in a hurricane guarding something that didn't need to be guarded.

[cliffordu]

169. I've said a lot of horrible shit to people on this board before,

but I have NEVER said this:

I believe you are completely without honor.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

178. Oh, dear me.

Shall I sing a medley of patriotic songs to get me some "honor"?

[cliffordu]

184. There are no songs, poems or posts on DU

in this life or the next that can restore what you never possessed to begin with.

[dionysus]

377. boom goes the dynamite

[msanthrope]

185. The honor of these soldiers comes not from patriotism, but from the oaths they fulfilled.

You swore the same oath, did you not?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

204. Yes, I did swear the same oath.

So? They were the unlucky few to die in wars engineered by politicians and fortune seekers.

[msanthrope]

213. I think Cliffordu has the measure of you. nt

[dionysus]

261. if you were a marine i'm the queen of england.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

356. You've called another poster a liar

On what grounds do you call this person a liar? Is it because no one in the Marine Corps would act and speak in this way that you don't like? Are you going to give me some Marine Corps exceptionalism bullshit, or are we going with what your "gut" tells you?

[dionysus]

376. yes, yes i did.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

383. Well then, I guess you and George W Bush both get feelins' in your gut

I don't really think that satisfies the threshold for calling a long-time DUer a liar.

[HangOnKids]

201. You are just fine the way you are

My son the former Marine still laughs his ass off when I tell him how you called the corps the crotch. HangOnTierra.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

207. Everyone, when I was in, called it The Crotch. Or, The Suck.

[pinboy3niner]

364. In your case, at least, that seems to be appropriate nt

[grantcart]

382. All of these guards are volunteers and compete for the honor.

They are not guarding the cement, or the building they are guarding the thought that some young man gave his life for a principle greater than the individual. And that some of those men died without a resting place for their families to visit to pay respects. And some of those died without families to come and pay respect.

For that young man who lost everything they guard his memory even though they don't know his name.

The fact that they do it in a hurricane gives it its true meaning. Guarding it when it is easy is a hobby. Guarding it in the worst of weather gives it solemnity.

It doesn't honor the battle but the sacrifice, and the total cost of that sacrifice. It is a simple incarnation of the final civil benediction of the Gettysburg address.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

In remembering the sacrificing and admitting the sacrifice is so great it is actually a great testimony, among the greatest, that we should not call on such an extreme sacrifice again, except in the most extreme circumstances.

[sarge43]

216. That's one reason. There is another.

Those men no doubt died alone, separated from their unit. It is fitting and proper they never be alone again. We owe them that much.

[LanternWaste]

153. I would imagine that respect often needs protection.

I would imagine that respect often needs protection.

[whathehell]

272. Yeah, especially from some of the sick fucks on this thread.

[Ter]

347. They're protecting you

You're welcome.

[sibelian]

353. They are protecting a sacred concept.

It's quite an important one. It's the idea that self-sacrifice is sometimes unavoidable and, because human beings deserve better, therefore to be regarded with reverence and respect. It's an inescapable conclusion, if you're human and have ever had to deal in real terms with self-sacrifice. It doesn't have all that much to do with the fact that they are in the military, although the military does have a tendency to focus and refine the most civilised possible reactions to such truths and do them properly.

I think the reaction to the dedication of these soldiers on behalf of some on this board is understandable, if you are blessed with a life mostly free from thoughts of death. Not everyone has this luxury.

[cali]

9. ugh. depressing, sentimental, militaristic nonsense.

[demwing]

20. That's one opinion /nt.

[DonRedwood]

25. I think it is beautiful.... but if it was my decision I'd send those boys in for some soup.

[TruthAnalyzed]

171. It's their decision

and they would say 'no'. They have a contingency to go inside if things really get bad, but they haven't done it yet.

[former-republican]

23. Isn't it great there were people who gave their lives so you could say something that stupid

[sarge43]

28. Thank you

The Unknowns also reminds us of all that has been lost to us -- all the dreams, hopes, promise gone before they could be fulfilled. Maybe depressing, but rather sad and mean anyone would think that is sentimental, militaristic nonsense.

[HangOnKids]

35. All the dreams, and hope, and promise gone because of miltaristic nonsense n/t

[sarge43]

37. Yeah, they weren't smart as you. n/t

[HangOnKids]

41. Never Said That Sarge

Please don't be disingenuous.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

165. Nonsense?

These are men and women who died so you can post snarky shit on the internet.

Either thank them or, out of respect for their sacrifice, just shut the fuck up.

[obamanut2012]

187. How do you know the poster doesn't have loved ones in the military?

I do, and also have disabled vets, and I recognize this for what it is. Military trappings have to be presented a certain way to convince people to continue to lay down their lives for their government. That doesn't diminish that this is a difficult billet to get, or that those who were killed in war don't deserve their government to honor them. It also doesn't mean that people are being "snarky" if they disagree with you, or that those of use thinking these kids should be inside drinking some coffee during a hurricane are spitting on KIAs.

The poster wasn't disrespectful. No one in this thread has been, including me.

And, they need to allow women to be guards. The height requirements makes that almost impossible.

Also, everyone is getting bent out of shape over a photo that was taking during a regular rainstorm quite a while ago.

[HangOnKids]

198. Why don't you STFU Jeff

You have no idea who has served in my family or who has been KILLED in military service. Now welcome to ignore.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

210. My guess is....Nobody

Otherwise you wouldn't disrespect people who have done more than you ever will to protect this nation. Or maybe you're just naturally disrespectfully.

Couldn't give a damn one way or another, frankly.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

362. Actually, you're wrong, and you look like a fucking moron

HangOnKids does have someone very close who was grievously wounded in a war that didn't have anything to do with protecting our right to bitch about soldiers in the rain. Go ahead with your next brilliant rejoinder, but no amount of false outrage about honor or patriotism or respect will do anything to bring back any of the thousands that have been slaughtered for no good reason, your cheerleading notwithstanding.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

372. You're Welcome...

Your right to bitch and moan was purchased by men and women who sacrificed their lives so you could piss all over their sacrifice. I honor their service to this country, and if that's nothing more than "cheerleading" to you, then please go screw yourself.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

373. I was in the military, but didn't die. Do I still get the right to "bitch and moan"?

Oh, wait, I had almost forgotten--I don't need permission from the military to talk about whatever I want to talk about, and no member of the military ever took a single action so that I could talk about what I want to talk about.

And don't forget to honor my service.

[obamanut2012]

177. Yes

[mythology]

228. And millions of other dreams, hope and promise got to live because of it

The world isn't butterflies and rainbows. Unfortunately sometimes the world isn't a good enough place that somebody doesn't have to die to make it better or keep it safe.

The world is better off without Hitler, but he wasn't going away without somebody picking up a gun. Honoring the sacrifice made isn't militaristic nonsense.

[redgreenandblue]

309. Care to provide an example other than World War 2?

[eaglesfanintn]

321. American Revolution, Civil War, WWI

To name a few others. Without at least two of those, as others point out, you wouldn't have the ability to be a total douche on the internet. Next time, instead of snark and bullshit how about just saying that it's a shame that we have to have young men and women die in armed combat but thank whatever higher being you believe in that you didn't and they did so you can be a dick. And, how about honoring their sacrifice. They did what they could to honor and protect this nation. And, in the case of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, they anonymously gave their lives. We should all stop and say a silent thank you to them and thousands of others that have paid the ultimate price to protect us and our way of life.

[EX500rider]

276. "miltaristic nonsense"

That's your term for the US helping defend the world from Nazi & Japaneses domination in WWII?

(the US war with the most unknown soldiers)

[Kindly Refrain]

45. How does killing Vietnamese or Korean or Iraqi or Afghan people

enhance my civil liberties? It doesn't. That sentiment you expressed in that post is a lie.

[kestrel91316]

60. There ARE no unknown soldiers from the Iraq or Afghan wars.

Vietnam or Korea? Very few.

Lots and lots of unknown dead from the civil war and both world wars, but I guess they were evil murderers, too, huh?

[Kindly Refrain]

66. Didn't answer my question

[eqfan592]

76. because the question is irrelevant in the context of this story.

And get that eye rolling problem looked at.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

110. It kinda did

The fact that you don't get it speaks for itself.

[dionysus]

378. sleep well, sweet, sweet prince.

[Aristus]

63. Right there with you, Kindly Refrain.

But the Tomb also contains the remains of veterans of WWI and WWII.

Anyway, If it weren't for the blood-thirsty old men sending our kids off to those other wars, none of that would have happened. I firmly believe that young kids faced with having to serve an in immoral war ought to choose not to; but once they serve, and lose their lives, we owe it to them to remember what they gave up, even if the cause they fought for was unworthy of their bravery.

[amuse bouche]

101. Thank You

No one ever states what purpose the Vietnam war had. I could never find one good reason for us being there

The waste of human life in that debacle was criminal in every way

[BainsBane]

157. How does disrespecting those who have served

enhance your civil liberties. The soldiers are not the ones who make war. They are the ones who pay the cost of it. Your glib remarks are childish, and fodder for the right.
The fallen soldiers did not make war on Iraq. You are every bit as responsible for that war as they are, only you didn't risk your life or lose limbs.

[obamanut2012]

189. No one is disrespecting KIAs in this thread

[Atypical Liberal]

327. I can see their point.

You are every bit as responsible for that war as they are, only you didn't risk your life or lose limbs.

I am not opposed to the tomb of the unknown solider. But I take issue with what you said above.

The United States has not fought many "righteous" military engagements since 1945. That was almost 70 years ago. We have not had a draft since 1973 - almost 40 years ago.

People who volunteer to be used by our government for the immoral wars today bear a higher responsibility than people who don't, because they are actively, willingly participating to make it happen.

Our all-volunteer military has created a military class of people and has allowed most of America to be insulated from the consequences of our wars.

I'm sympathetic to those who have the calling to serve in the military but suspicious of people who cannot seem to see what causes they will almost certainly be called upon to participate in. When you look at the history of America's military efforts over the last 70 years you have to ask, "Who would volunteer for this knowing what we know of the last 70 years of military engagements?"

At some point it's only natural to assume that those who volunteer in spite of this approve of those efforts and wish to actively support them.

[PavePusher]

329. The fault lies not in those who serve...

but in those we've chosen to give the orders as to where and how they serve. (That would be Congress and the President.)

So yeah, you're as culpable as any private or admiral.

[Atypical Liberal]

334. Not when people volunteer to serve.

The fault lies not in those who serve but in those we've chosen to give the orders as to where and how they serve. (That would be Congress and the President.)

When you look at America's military endeavors for the last 70 years, at some point you have to assume that anyone who would volunteer for military service is aware of the kinds of policies they will most likely be volunteering to support.

So yeah, you're as culpable as any private or admiral.

No, I did not volunteer to help actively participate in policies that were almost certainly going to be immoral.

Seriously - who could volunteer for the military today and think they were really going to be defending America's freedom and democracy?

[PavePusher]

355. O.K., I'll go back to Yugoslavia and Mozambique and re-collect all those relief supplies.

You get to go around the Indonesia area and let everyone know our tidal-wave assistance was all a big mistake and we need it back.

It's not a binary world. And since our leaders keep saying "We won't do those things again" (on both sides), and then breaking their promises...

[Atypical Liberal]

367. Yup, I noted the kosovo war in another thread.

I'm not going to say that there have not been some good things done by our military over the years, but they are very rare and pale in comparison to the major efforts undertaken to support American imperialism.

The fact is if you join the military you are more likely than not going to be used to do bad things rather than good things - especially if a Republican is in office.

[BainsBane]

345. Those who volunteer have the fewest opportunities in life

People of color and poor whites from rural area. That is the only access many have to higher education of any kind. This is a class issue, and your ability to set yourself apart from them is a result of your relative privilege. We all contribute to the political situation in the US--and hence wars--either actively by supporting those wars or passively by not doing enough to oppose them. And I of course include myself in that.

[PavePusher]

357. I can assure you that the reasons for military service

are not nearly as simplistic or stereotypical as you portray.

[BainsBane]

363. Demographics prove my point

I am not saying that is the only reason why people serve, but it is beyond dispute that the enlisted corp is made up of poor whites and people of color. It is very much a class /race issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

179. Yea but we weren't always a global superpower: The Revolution, The Civil War, World War II?

This country would be a very different place today had the outcome of those conflicts been different.

[still_one]

217. They did not create those conflicts, politicians did. It should never be taken out on the soldiers

[whathehell]

274. How about those who fought Hitler's armies?...Or would you rather be livng under the Third Reich?

That would have done a lot for your "civil liberties".

[redgreenandblue]

303. LoL. Read up on the history of World War 2.

Lesson #1: Win, lose or draw, the US would not have lived under the third reich.

...

[whathehell]

314. LOL...You read up on it.

If you think it' was not worth fighting...duh.

[dionysus]

380. i know, this thread is swimming with imbeciles...

[whathehell]

381. LOL...Thanks for telling it like it is!

[dionysus]

379. LOL, because a nuclear armed Nazi Germany wouldn't have been a threat.

[kestrel91316]

55. [phone]

[cthulu2016]

65. That's a good example of something that sounds wise

until you think about it... and then it's just gibberish.

A lot of similar cheap RW slogans are also like that.

Keep working on the "former" part.

[cali]

89. oh for fuck's sake. Do you really believe that tripe?

I find the adulation of all things military that prevails in this country, unhealthy and frightening. By the way, more thanks are due the Enlightenment thinkers than the military. For that matter, the ACLU has done every bit as much to protect speech as the military.

Mindless kowtowing to the military is dangerous.

[MineralMan]

155. Those guarding the Tomb are scarcely "Mindlessly kowtowing"

to anything. The bodies lying in that tomb lost their lives in WWI, WWII, and the Korean War. The guards know why they're doing what they do. Many of them have also served in combat. They are not adulating anything. They are showing respect for those who have gone before, and who have lost their lives doing so.

Your disrespectful words are ugly and callous. I think you should be ashamed of yourself. But, that's just my opinion.

[cliffordu]

237. And I completely agree, MM.

[Crabby Appleton]

300. agree

Your disrespectful words are ugly and callous. I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

[redgreenandblue]

304. Fact is, the US military has done little to "protect the right to free speech" in the US.

Which is what cali correctly pointed out.

"Isn't it great there were people who gave their lives so you could say something that stupid"

This statement is simply historically false, but it gets paraded around everytime when people want to get all preachy about th military.

[MineralMan]

351. Dude, those aren't my words. You appear to have

replied to the wrong post.

[Nye Bevan]

195. Yeah. Instead of the D-Day landings on Omaha Beach,

an organization like the ACLU should simply have sent a strongly worded letter to Adolf Hitler.

[Atypical Liberal]

328. WWII was nearly 70 years ago.

Sooner or later we are going to have to stop milking the patriotic tit of WWII and start considering what America's military has been used for almost exclusively since then.

[Nye Bevan]

374. So honoring the soldiers who landed on D-day is "milking the tit of WWII".

That certainly is an "Atypical" perspective.

[Atypical Liberal]

386. Nope.

But using WWII as a justification for continued volunteering for military duty is.

[bunnies]

231. Ive never understood statements like this.

"former-republican
23. Isn't it great there were people who gave their lives so you could say something that stupid"

I hear these statements from 'current' republicans all the time and no one ever tells what it means. Who gave their life for someone else's ability to say something stupid?

Not trying to be snarky, I just dont understand your point.

[PavePusher]

288. If you don't have to speak German and give a Nazi salute at Party meetings...

yeah, someone else did that for you.

[redgreenandblue]

307. Wrong.

Hitler had no chance against the Soviet Union. He would have never even been able to even attempt to conquer the United States.

The only thing that the involvment of the United States in the second World War effectively did was stop the spread of communism to Western Europe. Whether that was a good thing or bad thing we will never know, since it is impossible to say how this alternative history would have played out. Chances are there would have never been a Cold War.

Regardless of whether you think the involvment of the US in WWII was a good thing, statements such as "Americans would be speaking German now" are just complete nonsense and in fact a tribute to the failures of the American education system.

[CaptJasHook]

323. What is the point?

Whether we like it or not, the military will always be a part of human existence. I don't see anyway around it, do you? I certainly don't want my way of life being thrown into chaos every time some other country, some other state, some other band of idiots decides they want what I have.

In point, we have 300,000,000 people in our country. They have more liberty than any country of this size on the planet. There is more raw opportunity in this country because of that Liberty. That is what is guarded by the military.

Yes, you can talk all you want about how we are not free enough, and I would probably agree. You can complain as much as you want about inequality, discrimination, incarceration and civil liberties not being where they should, and I would agree. I would even state that our greatest threat to liberty lies within our own borders and banks on Wall Street. But I, like many others on DU took an oath to serve for four years, many years ago. I did that in order to do my duty to protect this grand experiment. Now, I guard it from within by teaching dissent, liberty and creative revolution in the classroom. Something I wouldn't be able to do if others like me hadn't signed up to protect my ability to teach and students ability to question.

I understand people's animus toward War, Patriotism and their symbols. But the soldiers who lie in those tombs represent something greater than you or I, something to contemplate, not merely to take cheap shots at.

[bunnies]

370. Hitler had plans to invade the US?

huh. Ive never heard that version of history.

[amuse bouche]

81. I have to agree

It gives me chills and not in a good way

[speedoo]

154. Obviously you don't understand the military.

Rather than offering your uninformed opinion on this, you should educate yourself before doing so.

[amuse bouche]

257. I underrstand plenty

and several family members have given the ultimate sacrifice

So take your strident and uniformed opinion and stick it

[darkangel218]

258. lol!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

365. Is that so? Do we have a servicemember's permission to speak now?

I "served", so don't even start down that road. What's fucked up here is that you apparently believe that, unlike any other topic up for discussion on DU, talking about soldiering should only be engaged in by former soldiers. Let me remind you of something: the armed forces works for us, not the other way around. You can pump yourself up all you want to about how you personally guaranteed freedom of speech for hordes of unaware hippies, but in the end, it doesn't matter. Those hippies can say what they want to say, just like DUers can engage in whatever conversations they want to engage in. If there's not enough worshipful reverence shown to those who think their job is to guarantee freedom of speech for those they consider troublemakers, then maybe the soldier in question isn't right for the job. Having joined the military to become canon fodder does not confer any special rights to you.

[bluestate10]

92. This is a democracy. You are entitled to your opinion. nt

[MineralMan]

116. Written by someone manning a keyboard

in a warm room somewhere. Feh!

[rateyes]

150. i expected better from you.

[speedoo]

151. You lost all my respect with that idiotic, uninformed post.

People who have never served do not understand the military. Your post makes that painfully obvious.

[The Wizard]

173. Those bad ass

guys in the 101st Fighting keyboards spout crap about subjects of which they haven't a clue.
No mission too difficult; no sacrifice to great, duty first.

[cliffordu]

161. I wonder.....

Have you ever served this country in any capacity?



Serious question.

Ever risked your life for something you believed in even if it was only the hopeless private next to you?


I'll bet the answer to both questions are 'no'

But please, answer them.

Thanks.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

168. But, it sells a lot of people into thinking that killing and dying is glorious and honorable.

When, in reality, it's just killing and dying.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

282. i agree with you. But, there are tons of less intelligent people who join up, because all the

guts and glory bs. Should they die because they are less intelligent? or that politicians in their ivory
towers treat them like play soldiers - expendable? Since I have been an adult - every war has been bullshit. On the other hand, my dad in the navy, fighting to stop the Nazis, seems so much different to me.

[redgreenandblue]

311. Best post of the thread.

Yes, exactly. The dead are simply dead. "Honoring them" will not make them less dead or have any impact on whether their sacrifice was "pointless" or "sensible" or even "honorable".

What the elevating of dead soldiers, and the projecting of a quasi-religious aura around them, effectively does is provide an incentive to young impressionable minds to participate. That is at the end of the day really all that it does.

"Tired of your boring, senseless daily routine? Want your life and death to have a meaning? Go join the military!"

[amuse bouche]

324. Exactly

The glorification of human destruction and military worship is hideous beyond words

[still_one]

223. Bullshit. Respecting and honoring their sacrifice does not mean you endorse all wars

But I will tell you if there were not special people like this we would be under Nazi rule from WWII

[Union Scribe]

305. Looks like the hurricane blew your mask off. nt

[sibelian]

358. Next time one of your friends dies and you put flowers on their tomb...

... I fervently hope that there are no passing wise people eager to accuse you of sentimentality.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Amazing.

[quinnox]

12. I would feel very foolish guarding an empty tomb

Symbolism is a very peculiar and major thing with people for some reason.

[whistler162]

16. It isn't empty.

http://www.army.mil/article/32607/tomb-sentinels-stand-guard-during-holidays/

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7260356_information-tomb-unknown.html

[Baitball Blogger]

21. Why do you think it's empty?

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/tombofun.htm

[quinnox]

24. ok so it isn't empty

I still don't get why they are guarding it.

[sarge43]

29. Among other none symbolic reasons

so some piece of shit doesn't carve graffiti on it as one did at Vietnam Wall.

[Kindly Refrain]

46. Please post a link to that incident.

I can't find any reference to it anywhere.

[sarge43]

53. It happened several years ago, mid nineties as memory serves.

No doubt the news item disappeared into a cyberspace black hole.

Swastikas were carved into a corner of The Wall.

[KansDem]

124. "Desecration of the Vietnam Memorial Wall"

Not sure if the culprits were ever caught or even identified.

[sarge43]

176. Thanks KansDem

Probably weren't. Night riders seldom are.

[sarisataka]

34. You don't get it

and I weep for you

[Firebirds01]

47. I read the url as

Tomb-o-fun. Like it was a carnival ride. I was offended at first but then realized it was tomb of Un(known)

[Baitball Blogger]

50. I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. They probably should change the url name.

We went to see it both times we went up on a family trip. It's really quiet and somber. People speak in whispers. One time a kid leaned into the area you weren't suppose to cross and we all woke up when the soldier barked a command. The words, I can't remember, but I remember there was applause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. It s not empty

It has remains from unknown soldiers.

[LanternWaste]

160. Tattoos are peculiar?

Tattoos are peculiar?

Chess is peculiar?

Art is peculiar?


or maybe (just maybe) we righteously hold onto and defend our own symbolism, whilst trivializing that of others; i.e., we often hold people to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.

[Autumn]

226. It's not empty. Those who have fought in wars have a flavor in their mouth

that most people will never know. I know someone who guarded that tomb. It was very healing to him to have that honor and duty. Whoever lies in that tomb? That's their Brother. Is there symbolism? Yes there is. But there is symbolism most things.

[onecent]

13. I saw this when I visited DC and I cried. it was one of the most MOVING things I have

ever seen.....and I didn't EXPECT it to be that moving. I would love to see this again.!

[Lionessa]

27. Really?? I'll be moved when our living veterans are being properly considered and taken

care of. F' this pageantry.

[speedoo]

158. It's not pageantry.

If you had ever served, you would understand. You should educate yourself before stating your ill informed and offensive opinion.

[Lionessa]

238. Are they actuallyl guarding anything, no. It's pageantry, nothing more.

The true honor would be if our country treated soldiers and veterans properly, till then this is just bs pageantry.

[Ilsa]

211. Me too. The former Marine I was with would

have dropped what he was doing and taken up the rifle and spell the guards if they had asked him. In a heartbeat. And we were there in freezing cold January weather.

[trailmonkee]

18. beautiful pic

[grantcart]

19. Details of the duty for these soldiers.

http://www.snopes.com/military/unknown.asp

[Kurovski]

22. .

[Lionessa]

26. I'm sorry but that kind of determination is just plain stupid and shouldn't be regaled.

Honestly standing there doing nothing is somehow regaled during good weather is in and of itself crazy and a waste of three persons' time and energy that might be spent actually doing something. Then to extend it and suggest standing in bad weather is even more honorable. Jeez. No wonder this country and it's military individuals end up so screwed up so muchh of the time.

Military should be for fighting when necessary, the national and state guards should be in the nation or state, not in the Middle East, and only directly paid armed forces should be fighting our wars and protecting our personnel interests overseas, not private, for profit mercenaries.

We have a very strange way of honoring our military men and women since we think this is so cool and honorable, this stupid standing over a non-threatened grave, and yet can't house, feed, or provide proper medical care for those that have returned to find they no longer fit into the world they left because neither themselves nor the world they left to fight for us are even close to the same as when they left, both being is pretty dire situations. PTSD and the like for the returning soldiers, and terrible economy, and useless Legislators' partisanship nipping any help for them in the bud.

[Throd]

30. I'm willing to bet the men in that photo don't feel they are being "just plain stupid".

Quite the contrary.

[Kindly Refrain]

38. Yeah because they are brainwashed.

[ReasonableToo]

73. My brother applied.

...but was one inch too short. He's not brainwashed. He saw the military is comprised of all types ranging from the evangelical zealots, commissioned officers calling the shots during exercises and getting the unit "mock-killed" for lack of common sense that the non-college grads had, and average joes there to serve their country and/or get money for college.

I despise the way our military is used and despise the folks that sign up to participate in the 21st century Crusades but also support the average well-meaning citizen who signed up to serve.

Also, the dangerous wind and rain is just now arriving in the DC area. It wasn't bad this morning when this photo was presumably taken. I imagine they'll pull the guys in when it really gets dangerous.

[Kindly Refrain]

82. Military personnel have achieved demi-god status in the US

But all we can do is rah rah rah our way into more war. It's disgusting. Oh and god forbid anybody say anything that isn't glowing reverence for the military or "the troops" their fragile little egos can't handle it, or maybe it's the nations ego. We have the most destructive force on the planet and yet it can't take the slightest criticism as evidenced in the remarks in this thread.

[ReasonableToo]

152. I don't disagree.

As Shakespeare said, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

"provide for the common defense" sounds like a good idea.

I often have trouble with the idea of the blanket "thank you for your service" because I don't know if this particular soldier is one of the zealots/brainwashed or one of the tortured soles that have opened eyes and are in a catch-22 where they can't disobey orders but know how wrong the orders are. I suspect this is the source of many of the suicides in the last few years.

I can't turn my back on all soldiers and sailors in general but I'm also wary of some coming back and militarizing the police. My biggest problem with the Prez is drones and not reigning in the military - not outing and removing the religious zealots.

So...I'm not being defensive and i certainly understand where you're coming from.

[yawnmaster]

285. how does one know if they are brainwashed? eom

[PavePusher]

290. Please go fuck yourself. n/t

[sarisataka]

39. And if you asked those soldiers...

would they rather stand out in the entire storm or come in for a hot meal, they would pick the storm every time.

They 'get it'; that you do not is sad.

[Lionessa]

44. But if you asked them if taking care of their fellow returning vets was more important than standing

in the rain like automatons, I bet they'd chose the former.

[sarge43]

57. As they are volunteers for that duty they'd probably say why can't we do both. n/t

[Lionessa]

69. Because they are willfully representing a false reality. We treat our vets like shit, not like heros

And when the masses regale such as this, it means they are still oblivious to reality.
That bugs me. Sorry it doesn't bug you.

[sarge43]

97. Bugs me quite a bit because I am a veteran

which makes me a hellva lot more aware of how veterans are treated than you are. I've forgotten more about veterans than you'll ever know, having seven generations of them in my family.

BFD that it bugs you. What have you done about it? Huffing and puffing on the net doesn't hack it. When the masses get self righteous it means they have an agenda that they care about more than doing the hard thankless work to change the situation.

[Kindly Refrain]

102. You know, my dad was a veteran of WWII

But you'd never know it. Never mentioned it, all he had was a Naval rank insignia patch and his discharge papers hidden away in the top drawer of his dresser. Didn't swap war stories, didn't march on Veterans Day. I don't think I ever heard a single person say "thank you for your service", those empty words we hear so often today. Today where everybody who "served" literally wears it on their sleeve, plastered all over the bumper of their cars and then browbeats you over the head with it if you don't "show them the proper respect". Like I said, there are many people who think they are a special class of citizen because "they served". Seems rather unconstitutional and dangerously undemocratic to me.

[sarge43]

133. Would you please post any of my messages where I indicated I believe I belong to a "special class"

because I'm a veteran. I don't. So, why is your message aimed at me? My experience is a great many who pound the drum turn out to be chicken hawks or wannabees. Most of us want only common courtesy.

And I don't care if anyone thanks me. Frankly, I served because I felt it was in my best interests to do so. As most people do most things -- enlightened self interest.

The ceremony at the Tomb of Unknown means a lot to most veterans. We know what those men go through to do the duty and we know what that monument means "But for the grace of God". Having it called among other things "militaristic", "nonsense", "stupid" is an insult to Old Guard and the men at rest there. Damn few veterans will let that stand.

Your father wasn't unique. Most veterans don't talk to civilians about their experiences. As one combat veteran said, "If you've been there, I don't have to explain. If you haven't, you can't understand." That goes for non-combat vets, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Hubby and I try to convey it

I know, fools errand, because kids these days think it's a game.

[sarge43]

174. If it were only the kids these days

Hubster and I gave up some time ago. What do we know?

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. I know

People really go out of their way not to get it.

Or worst, to exploit it.

[Lionessa]

239. What I do is ignore this pageantry and vote for folks who'll do a better job of tending reality

the homeless vets, the vets waiting years for PTSD treatment, the soldiers underpaid and lied to during recruitment so mercenaries can be paid 6 digit incomes.

Thank you for serving, I wish you cared about your fellows as much as I do, having Marines in my family. I was too blind and broken to serve.

[sarge43]

243. First, I didn't ask for your thanks and I don't want it.

Second, my husband has PTSD, thanks to two tours in Vietnam. I've been caring about that and for him for the past 36 years, so your wish that I cared more is, how can I say without getting banned, misplaced.

I've forgotten more about the reality of veteran's care than you'll ever know. At least I do more than vote.

[Lionessa]

341. Thanks is given regardless of your willingness to accept it.

And I guess I keep focusing on your continued and recurring use of "forgotten". I've not forgotten how my family's military men were handled, nor the dozens upon dozens of infirmed but unattended veterans I've met over the years both from Nam in the day, and now the Middle East.

I will not forget, I will not accept that standing in the rain "honors" our vets, I will not stop speaking out about how horribly we truly treat our armed services men and women, and I will never stop thanking those who have been and are being so badly misused by our military industrial complex, I will not stop being outraged by the carelessness that our Legislators.display with their hypocritical patriotism speak when they do nothing of substance to improve those that served or are serving.

[Atypical Liberal]

332. I agree with you. n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

331. What I do about it.

I've never served, and I'm glad of it. In the 40+ years I've been around, the military has not engaged in very many righteous military endeavors. Mostly it has been imperialistic in nature, and I'm glad I wasn't forced to participate.

What I do about it is firstly, I'll teach my children to avoid military service if at all possible. Knowing the history of what our military has been used for the last 70 years should be a warning to anyone feeling patriotic stirrings to join the military. Mosre likely than not, you will be used for immoral undertakings.

Secondly, I vote Democrat, in the hopes that we will have less corporatistic, imperialistic policies that encourage military responses to the rest of the world.

That's what I do about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Hint, huge one indeed

Soldiers walking post don"t set policy.

Not even generals walking post (now that be a sight). Politicians do.

Soldiers can hold two thoughts at the same time by the way.

[sarge43]

190. Even generals were butter bars once upon a time

and did their share of crap duty. Plus, there are the "somebody make popcorn" moments when a chief starts messing with a looie's mind. That's entertainment.

"Soldiers can hold two thoughts at the same time by the way."

Yeah, pay grade and IQ are seldom the same thing. The latter is 99% of the time much higher.

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. Of course but you ask civilians

And generals make policy, indeed butter bars do as well.

[sarge43]

220. Thank the maker they don't.

SNAFU with a side FUBAR.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. And an extra helping of crazy

Yup

[sarge43]

227. And often confirming that there is no such thing as unutterable nonsense. Bless their hearts. n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

333. But at some point...

Soldiers walking post don"t set policy.

This is true. But looking at America's military endeavors over the last 70 years, at some point you have to assume that people who volunteer for the military agree with the policies.

Who would look at the last 70 years of American military engagements and think, "Hey, I'll join up to help defend America's freedom and democracy?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

335. How many people do you know in the military?

From that comment I'd say near zero.

Politics across the ranks mirrors American Civilian politics.

[Atypical Liberal]

338. Lots and lots and lots.

I know lots and lots and lots of people in the military. In fact, I'd wager that I know more people that are in or ex-military than not. I live in a military town and my hobbies have a large percentage of military participants. Edit to add: Most of them vote Republican, too.

Politics across the ranks mirrors American Civilian politics.

This may be true. But when you look at what the American military has been largely used for over the last 70 years, and the fact that we have not had a draft in nearly 40, then at some point you have to question who would volunteer to support the endeavors of a government with such an illustrious track record?

Moreover, and this is admittedly anecdotal, I do not have a good track record of experience with people who came back from the wars in the middle east. To a man, most of them considered (and this is a quote) the people over there as "savages" and that they were on an extermination mission that just was "too restrained to be effective".

I think a whole lot of military folks have been swayed just the way Goering explained.

[nadinbrzezinski]

340. And fail, we do have a draft, it's called an economic draft.

I also know scads in the armed forces, chiefly the USN. Some in the army, and I have yet to hear one refer to ME denizens as savages.

Of course this is anecdotal. What I do know is that those who have seen combat and are now out of the service, don't agree with the policies of their government.

Go on and hate the privates. I take issue with the political class and the empire builders, not even with the NCO's

[Atypical Liberal]

342. Of course I do not fault people with no choices.

I thought about adding this, but thought it would go without saying: Clearly if someone joins the military because it is their only chance of success in life than I cannot fault them for that, any more than I can fault a person who was drafted.

Go on and hate the privates. I take issue with the political class and the empire builders, not even with the NCO's

That is a false dichotomy. Of course I take issue with the political class and the empire builders. But I also take issue with people who knowingly volunteer to support the political class and empire builders - especially those so blinded by patriotism so as to be blind to what is going on.

Again, we've now got 70 years of military track record to examine. And as a co-worker exclaimed the other day as we were talking about pervasive internet connectivity, "Today, ignorance is a choice."

[nadinbrzezinski]

344. Yup I am sure private Johnson

Comming from the lowest East End, who graduated from a so-so HS...had deep discussions in his history class on the Sandino campaign in 1920s Nicaragua...I an positive, after all this is almost graduate history material...

Private Johnson likely never heard of Peleliu either, or for that matter of the mining of the Nicaraguan Ports in the 80s

Sorry if I laugh over here at that statement.

Have a good day.

[Atypical Liberal]

349. You don't have to be an expert in history.

Just look at the big engagements over the last 70 years:

Bay of Pigs. Vietnam. Korea. Kosovo. Iraq I. Iraq II. Afghanistan.

Just looking at short list there is only one or two that could pass as being righteous, and they were smaller affairs.

Like I said - today, with the internet in your pocket, ignorance is a choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

352. Bay of pigs

Is ancient history...

Kosovo, what Kosovo, most Americans don't know or care (and the closest to a correct intervention under genocide convention)

Gulf war I most have no memory

Afghanistan, go shopping citizen.

Sorry, people join for economic needs...not for grand political agendas.

I know, I know, eeeevvvvviiiiiilllll.

[Atypical Liberal]

366. Yes, I know that - 70 YEARS OF ANCIENT HISTORY.

That is my point. We now have 70 YEARS OF ANCIENT HISTORY to point to and try to find the bright light of American military involvment.

Just look at this thread. All the defense is about WWII - 70 years ago is the last real righteous military involvement of our country!

You don't have to be a historian or a rocket science to wonder, "Gee, when was the last time our military did something good in the world?"

Yes, I know some people join the military out of economic needs, but I think a lot of people are just brainwashed. I have TONS of military facebook friends and while there are a few exceptions most of them vote Republican and think our military endeavors are just fine and dandy "protecting our freedom and democracy".

[cherokeeprogressive]

264. Your "we" doesn't include these guys, I guarantee. It doesn't even include MOST Veterans.

This veteran sees what they do as a message. It's a message that says "This I do; I would do for you, Brother, as I know you would do for me".

That's the "reality" I see in what they do.

[Lionessa]

283. Of course not, my comments are the disconnect from the reality of how our gov't treats individual

men and women of the armed forces. It just feels like a falsehood is being represented, that being that the USA cares about it's everyday soldier heros. It isn't the fact that veterans are standing in the rain, it's the regaling of an image that to me feels like it's so disrespectful to the realities of our collective through gov't, through Legistors, etc, just are so failing them. I'd love it if/when it represents the honor we should be giving our men and women, then put it back. See if I was one of those men I'd be marching in protest on the same spot to bring attention to the facts of how soldiers and veterans and families thereof are treated.

It's not about war, it's not about veterans honoring veterans, to me about the actual image, the one the OP asked us to embrace, and I can't. I feels like embracing a lie of the past, recent past as well as long term past, these issues have plaqued to some extent all our war heros, and feels like a step to remaining complacent about demanding improvement in the future.

I get that no one seems to understand what I'm trying to say, but it isn't what it's being portrayed as.

[PavePusher]

291. Except that in this thread, you are the one treating past and current vets "like shit"....

for the sacrifices they are willing to make that you don't understand.

Get. Over. Yourself.

It's not about you.

[Atypical Liberal]

330. I agree. The masses get all teary-eyed about soldiers standing in the rain...

But if they need VA benefits or a home, hey, fuck 'em, right?

They get used up and spit out.

[Lionessa]

337. Thank you for fully understanding my point. It's so hard to get the point across

to those who choose to believe that standing in the rain actually "honors" our troops when compared to the way we collectively allow them to be treated in the real world, past and present.

[Atypical Liberal]

339. Kippling said it well...

[MineralMan]

119. It is not a zero-sum game, Lionessa.

Not in any way.

[sarisataka]

166. One does not exclude the other

Troops and vets are always willing and happy to welcome those who are returning. They also give honest offers of assistance which are too often not acted on.
OTH when our unit was asked if we could cover a funeral detail that needed to be covered, every hand went up immediately. No one cared who the vet was, what they did or where they served- all that mattered was a vet, living or dead, needed help.

These soldiers currently honor the dead. Their actions also honor the living.

[PavePusher]

292. Do you really think we are unable to walk and chew gum at the same time?

Seriously, your gluteous maximus is unclothed and canti-levered.

[Lionessa]

343. When I see so many here stumbling while obviously chewing on something, then yes.

I do see that when some are chewing on this scene, they seem to walk carelessly past the real issues of honoring our troops who are littered upon the ground around them in varying degrees of misuse and infirmity. Do you really think that those so taken by this scene are equally taken upon seeing homeless vets asleep in a doorway, or in the news for snapping and killing their whole families because of lack of PTSD care? Nope, then it's all about personal responsibility, and all that.

[PavePusher]

359. You are making assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

Have a good day.

[Lionessa]

375. Actually many are putting heads in sand when idolizing such "honoring" unrepresentative regalia.

I make no assumptions, nothing I've mentioned isn't/aren't well documented issues for our soldiers and veterans.

Assumptions require a lack of data or an over-reach of that data. Since soldiers and veterans are clearly NOT being properly treated, tended, or honored from the time the recruiter lies to the enlistee to the time they return from battle and either they themselves and/or their families suffer from the lack of care, lack of after-service promises fruition, the rampant dishonorable discharges to avoid long term PTSD treatment and so on.

Tell me where is my assumption.

Or are you just usual wrapped in bs flag type patriot that only pays attention to people standing in the rain?

[kestrel91316]

64. How is getting rid of a couple of measly guards going to solve our veterans' mess?

Do tell.

Eff the anti-military attitude. My dad served his country for 23 years, risked his LIFE in service every day for years. Your attitude is personally insulting to me and millions of Americans.

[blackspade]

100. Please read up on what they are doing.

My Father told me that being a ToUS guard was one of the best things he did in the military.
It honestly is one of the only things he will talk about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Oh just stop it

And it is not just the US military that does this.

[Lionessa]

242. Absolutely true, but to mention the military aspect is taboo, as this thread proves.

It does happen all the time, we are fed it 24/7 in advertising from all angles, from nearly all politicians, and pundits, you're right it's everywhere. And at least I'm consistent, I dislike it everywhere. It's so frustrating. If we were NOT all fed, and agreeable to swallowing so much misleading visual, and spoken, and written misconceptions about how we really treat each other in this country and in the world in general, maybe we'd fix more of it. but it's easier to get all weepy about men standing in the rain as the current example shows when the military aspect is presented.

[nadinbrzezinski]

248. The problem is not a pfc walking post

Oh a soldado raso, or a soldier in Russia. And you know it.

And that is the problem

They, military men and women, honor their own in different Languages and traditions. Some look strangely similar.

It's not them...it's the political class, so really stop it. This goes triple in the US.

[Lionessa]

250. I never said it was. You're entirely misunderstanding my point.

And I cannot fathom any other way to put it, that I haven't already typed somewhere in this thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. Whatever

As a vet (of another tradition) I get it. As a wife of a USN chief, ret, I get it.

And my beef is not with soldiers walking post, but pols in the US attacking spent ammo that did not have the good sense to die.

You have offended not just me.

Chew on that, or maybe...better not.

In the words of a company commander everywhere, carry on.

[PavePusher]

293. "I cannot fathom any other way to put it"

That's your fucking problem, you keep shitting on the troops when your target is elsewhere.

Adjust fire immediately.

[pinboy3niner]

310. Yet this is one example of our government honoring its debt to those who served

Ensuring that they will be remembered and honored, not forgotten. Even, in this case, those whose names are unknown. Those who not only made the ultimate sacrifice, in death they were denied even the dignity of their names being known and remembered.

What would be worse--the government honoring the Unknowns in this way--or not honoring them at all?

For all the RW lip service and yellow ribbon car magnets for the troops and vets, there actually have been a lot of initiatives to truly support the troops, veterans, and military families--especially under this administration. It was President Obama's 2010 budget that gave the VA its largest increase in 30 years.

President Obama also has increased funding for TBI and PTSD and expanded mental health and PTSD services both in the service branches and in the VA and its nationwide network of Vet Centers. I once wrote an article about "The Last Vet Center" when the VA opened the last of its planned 186 Vet Centers in Springfield, VA. Today there are more than 300 Vet Centers--including one that opened in my community not long ago.

Challenges remain, but this Democratic Administration and Democratic leaders in Congress are working to honor our nation's promises to those who serve. Our First and Second Ladies have even made it their priority to support military families.

The VA health care system consistently is rated as good or better than civilian health care, but major issues remain in the claims bureaucracy and in appointment waiting times. This Administration has promised improvements, but the jury is out until they produce results. This is something that the veterans' service organizations are watching closely.

Combating sexual abuse in the in the military is now a priority of DoD and its service branches, and in Congress Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) has been a leader on the issue. Another Dem standing up for the troops.

Please understand, too, that many of us here have personal connections to the military and to the fallen that makes this a sensitive issue. I knew more than 60 guys who died in Vietnam, and I have friends who are buried at Arlington--including a friend and roommate who was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously.

One of my men volunteered for helicopter door gunner in Vietnam, was shot down and spent 3 1/2 years as a POW. One friend's husband was classified as MIA for years, and she even traveled to the Paris peace talks in an effort to get information from the North Vietnamese delegation.

I've also lost VN vet friends to suicide--including my first radioman in VN, who killed himself shortly after returning to the U.S.

And while I have only one Purple Heart, I have friends who have as many as four.

Many of us are genuinely concerned about our country's treatment of our troops and our veerans. Please do not reduce it to a matter of us getting "all weepy about men standing in the rain." And still, from our perspective, we see the ceremonies at the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington as entirely appropriate. And the Old Guard there has our utmost respect.

[slackmaster]

32. You have to be the best of the best to get into the Army's Old Guard

Not only must your service record be the kind that you could tape to your shoes and then walk on water, you have to be of a certain size and build.

I know a man who spent his tour in the Old Guard during the Vietnam War.

[johnt_1956_55]

33. what courage

amazing really

[Kindly Refrain]

36. This pic gets posted during every severe storm

or one like it. More military propaganda for the masses. eat it up.

[Happyhippychick]

42. Very moving. Thanks for sharing.

[hogwyld]

43. All of the posts ridiculing this ceremony

probably never served. As a former servicemember, it's not just some bullshit pagentry, it is a sign of respect for those who have fallen to preserve our right to disagree. For those fellow service members, no words are necessary as we understand certain things that others will never know...

[Kindly Refrain]

49. Again, where in the US Constitution does it say

the US military "preserves our rights"? Jingoistic bullshit.

[eggplant]

129. You know, it is possible to make a point here on DU without being a dick about it.

You could have said what you believe, and then let it go. Clearly this memorial is important to quite a lot of people. Whether you agree with them or not, the LEAST you could do is have the decency to respect your fellow DUers.

In other words, go grind your axe somewhere else.

[H2O Man]

183. Someone "alerted" on

your post. I just did jury service. I think your post is okay by DU standards. Unsure of how others will vote, though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. Where in the DU terms of service does it say that ridiculing soldiers is expected?

Their commander has given an oath to preserve and protect the constitution, so everyone under his command is in service to that goal.

[sarge43]

221. Every member of the armed forces swears or affirms to preserve, protect and defend the constitution.

[lumberjack_jeff]

233. Thanks for the correction. n/t

[H2O Man]

188. Considering that the post

you are responding to does not make the claim that you are attempting to attribute to it, perhaps you could take the time to make an actual response, if you think it requires one. But please do not make stuff up.

[glacierbay]

266. It doesn't in the Constitution

but it does in the oath of enlistment I took back in 68, the part thats said to uphold and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Oooops, to late, poster has been shitcanned.

[PavePusher]

294. Ya know, not everything is in the Constitution....

They're in what we do.

Go ponder that and unfuck yourself. Preferably elsewhere.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

114. I didn't serve

And I understand. It's too bad so many are so angry about things like this, because they not only don't understand, they refuse to.

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. Not a veteran, but I agree 1000%

I'm proud of those guys.

[Taverner]

48. Look, I know it is important to honor those who made sacrifices

But can't they hook up a webcam and guard it from a safer place?

[Odin2005]

52. The attitudes in this thread is why our side is accused of hating soldiers.

[txdemsftw]

54. I agree

I cannot believe some of these comments.

[Lightbulb_on]

94. I can...

... Nothing surprising here.

[zonkers]

67. Disgusting. I hope this thread gets locked, it makes me so ill.

How to you disrespect those honoring those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country? Sometimes folks ought to just shut up.

[SidDithers]

75. Some have to exhibit their ultra-liberal street cred...

Last edited Mon Oct 29, 2012, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Sid

[MADem]

105. More like "ultra clueless."

You can lead a boor to knowledge but you can't make him think!

Consider the source, I say, consider the source!

[Autumn]

230. Sid, that ain't ultra-liberal street cred. That's disgusting behaivor

and this ultra-liberal old lady says don't try to smear a part of the party you don't like , try again.

[treestar]

126. Not really. I just think they should not be out there in a hurricane

Who is going to grafitti or damage it in the middle of a hurricane? Surely there is some limit.

[PavePusher]

296. It's not about graffiti.

And risking a little weather? If I could fit the physical profile, I'd volunteer in a heartbeat. I've fixed lots of aircraft in worse.

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. Yup. n/t

[redgreenandblue]

312. Quite a few, usually older, soldiers hold those very exact opinions.

Some people grow up and then come to think that they wasted their lives and their health on something pointless.

[pinboy3niner]

313. No, that's not true

Last edited Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Some of us, having served, come to question the wars in which we fought, but we do not malign the the services performed at Arlington by the Old Guard.

Whatever we may think of any particular cause, we honor those who made the ultimate sacrifice--wherever they served.

Many of us despise the Vietnam War, in which I served. I knew more than 60 guys who died there, including a friend and roommate who was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously.

Yes, we grow up and come to understand things. We come to new understandings about our war, and about war generally. But we don't consider our experience a "waste" because we will never give up our having had the opportunity to know those comrades we loved...and lost.

I am just one of many "older" vets who salutes the Old Guard and all that they do.

[redgreenandblue]

316. Some see it as you do.

Some people experience camaraderie and have sentimental feelings about it. Some people become entirely cynical and reject the entire institution. It is a mixed bag. To say that in general every older vet does this or does that IMO is pointless.

[pinboy3niner]

317. Regardless of differing political views, I will guarantee you...

...that vets of all political stripes overwhelmingly support the Old Guard and its ceremonies at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

[redgreenandblue]

319. In such a picture one sees what one wants to see.

As was pointed out somewhere in this thread, that photograph isn't from the current storm. But that doesn't matter I guess.

Some people will look at this picture and see honor. To them, it is a question of whether one "gets it" or not. Almost like a religious experience.

Others will look at the picture and maybe think of similar pictures, highly staged and polished, that lead them to make decisions that ultimately ruined their lives.

Some people will just see dudes standing in the rain, doing something not particularly challenging.

And somewhere for certain there is a seventeen year old kid who will see this picture and be so impressed, he or she will decide to enlist and end up killing innocents and dying for a pointless cause.

My grandmother once told me my idealistic nature reminded her of her brother. His ideas of honor and duty drove him to volunteer and get himself killed in WWII, on Germany's side.

I am not a 100% pacifist. And I get the psychological appeal of ceremony and the idea of self-sacrifice. But as long as such ceremonies elevate the sacrifices of one group over those of another I will always be opposed to them, for their net effect on society is to pit human against human.

Where are the ceremonies for the Iraqi soldiers that were killed defending their country from US aggression? Where are the ceremonies for those who accepted shaming and jail time for resisting the draft during Vietnam or deserting when Bush decided to invade Iraq? They also made a sacrifice, for doing what they believe was the right thing. Yet they are excluded from being "honored", even though the effects of their actions, in the greater context, were better for humanity as a whole.

Where are ceremonies for people like Bradley Manning, who in the face of injustice decided to do what ever was within his means to throw a wrench into the machine as it was rolling forward?

[pinboy3niner]

325. "(C)eremonies for those who accepted shaming and jail time for resisting the draft"?

You're kidding, right? You can't seriously be comparing that to those who died in combat.

I was interning on Capitol Hill when President Jimmy Carter granted unconditional pardon to draft dodgers, and I wrote my Congressman's press release explaining the order.

Years later, I was one of the Vietnam vets invited to speak to a high school class taught by a man who'd gone to jail for refusing his draft induction.

The back wall of that teacher's classroom had 'VIETNAM' spelled out in 3-foot high letters. The letters, we discovered, were made of 58,000 straightpins he'd had his students spend five minutes each day putting in.

The folowing year, we arrived to find on the classroom wall a collage of 58,000 faces cut from magazine photos.

Yes, some people get it. Even some convicted, incarcerated, pacifist draft dodgers...

[redgreenandblue]

348. I commend your efforts to educate kids about war.

Yet, it is hard for me to tell whether you are passing a value judgment on draft dodging or not. If a cause is injust, why not honor those who stood against it?

Look, I get that there is the point of view that one should honor courage in combat regardless of the morality of the cause that was being fought for. I could almost accept such a point of view if it was universally and consistently applied.

And yet, people in this thread frequently have singled out the second World War as the prominent example of why they "honor the fallen". This seems strange in that context, since it to some degree suggests that they are in fact taking the morality of the cause into account.

If it only were about "courage in combat" we should honor all sides of all wars equally. OR we are in fact making a value judgment, which would force us to conclude that the record of the US, in particular in times later than the second World War, is far less than clean. (There also seem to be some that think the morality of one cause "rubs off" on other causes.)

My opinions on the subject are probably colored by my particular perspective: I have two nationalities and (at least) four different ethnic heritages. I have several relatives who fought on various sides of various wars, some of them opposing each other. If it came down to it, and people were at each other's throats, I almost would have no other choice than make a value judgment. I'd have to pick a side, and I'd have to make my pick based on my perceived morality of each particular cause. Or perhaps I would simply decide it is all shit and stay out of it entirely. There would inevitably be some who would consider me a traitor, a coward or whatever. And if it came to that, I'd probably likewise be condemning those who chose differently. At any rate I don't have the luxury of saying "oh well because I was born in this or that place, I sticked with my side" and expect people to honor that.

I spent a large part of my life in Germany, and from that experience I can tell you one thing: The stain of a huge injustice that people actually took up arms for, by their own choice or not, never ever ever goes away. A ceremony singling out the German military for honoring would, even today, always be tainted by the crimes of the Wehrmacht and the SS, because it would always be hurtful to those who were the victims of German aggression.

Likewise the Iraq war and also the Vietnam war, will always be a stain on the US military (as much as the second World War is a spot of pride to some), and a ceremony honoring the fallen of the United States will always be hurtful to the people in Iraq and Vietnam who are still suffering from the consequences of the wars. To them, the fact that individual soldiers didn't make the choices, or in fact committed individual acts of courage and heroism, is simply of no consequence.

I think if the teacher you spoke of truly "got it", then Vietnam would not have been spelled by not 58.000 pins but several million.

[pinboy3niner]

368. I'll spell it out for you: we VN vets had the utmost respect for that draft-dodging teacher

Those who face and accept the consequences of honoring their ideals, we respect.

No, we don't list the Vietnamese on our memorials. It's up to each nation to honor its fallen. During the Libyan Revolution, cities across the country posted handwritten lists of their martyrs.

I won't single out a 'just' war because I believe that those who serve stand in defense of our country every day, whether they serve at home or abroad. It's not wars that protect our freedoms, it's the often-unappreciated everyday service of those who stand up in our national defense.

And no matter how any particlar war may be judged, those who fought it honorably cannot be "stained" by it.

Perhaps we'll meet one day, and I can take you on a tour of the Wall...

[redgreenandblue]

369. You know, if I was living in the US, I'd might just take that offer.

It will probably be quite some time before I manage to come back. In any case, thanks for sharing your perspective.

[pinboy3niner]

371. You'll miss a good one here

My community raised more than $100,000 to design and construct our own half-scale mobile replica of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in D.C.

We'll be displaying it over Veterans Day this year in a popular local park. We have no paid staff--we're all volunteers. My job is training the volunteers who will be assisting visitors at the Wall and speaking to school classes.

Wish you could be here to experience this.

[redgreenandblue]

387. I think I'll pass this on to my dad.

He is a Vietnam veteran and he's living much closer to your place than me. He might just show up.

[Marinedem]

59. Very telling.

So many folks in here are going out of their way to shit all over something they don't understand.

These men do what they do to honor the memory of others. They view the performance of their acts in the heat, cold, and rain as a tiny bit of self sacrifice to pay back the sacrifice of so many others. The guards are a symbol of American dedication to courage, remembrance, and honor. They aren't so much guarding the tomb itself, as they are actually guarding the memory of the fallen. As long as they are there, others will never forget the selfless dedication of the honored dead that came before them.

If you crossed the line to put a cup of hot anything in their hand, well.....you wouldn't do it again.

[Kindly Refrain]

71. As an American

I understand it all too well. It's war culture, it's in everything, hell, they even manged to work it into a fucking story about a devastating hurricane. Oh but don't worry, more propaganda showing the military dropping supplies from helicopters to helpless civilians in hurricane devastated areas is on it's way! USA! USA! USA!

[Marinedem]

78. Yeah

Fuck those stranded citizens.

What are you doing on a level anywhere near as impactful as they are?

I'm sensing some jealousy.

[Kindly Refrain]

88. I'm not droning civilians in Pakistan

So, I pretty much hold the moral high ground.

[Marinedem]

95. No.

Just droning on here with your derision and spite.

[iamthebandfanman]

287. ya pay any taxes?

yeah ya are.

[PavePusher]

298. "moral high ground"?

You're in a fucking crevasse.

Your target should be the political leadership giving our orders.

Adjust fire immediately.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

137. And in the meantime, what will you be up to?

I won't project a strenuous day of XBox Live followed by frantic calls to your boys to hook you up with that same strain that fucked you up this past weekend....because you sound like too much of a socially conscience dude for that noise.

Tell us, gonna get in a rowboat and head down to Jersey or Delaware? Sounds like you should.

[iamthebandfanman]

286. Yes,

a tomb to remind us of the costs of war is REALLY meant to be a call to more military worshipping and mindless chanting of letters.

Thank you for uncovering this long un-noticed conspiracy. Youll be of great help to the green party.

[PavePusher]

297. I'll go back and undo all the humanitarian relief I've participated in...

if it will make your vile fucking heart a little less bitter. Deal?

[ChillZilla]

389. Man, after reading a few of your posts, you sure don't sound like a Proud American

How about you give your country and its defenders a break for a minute and show a little freakin gratitude. Obviously you're farily young though, that kind of self-assured cluelessness tends to temper with age.

[WilliamPitt]

79. ^^^ THIS ^^^

I had a feeling this thread was going to wind up making me want to puke.

Thank you for making this point.

[Kindly Refrain]

84. The anti-war Will Pitt speaks out.

And he's pro-military. What a conundrum.

[WilliamPitt]

91. Yep

I can hold two contradictory ideas in my head at the same time.

Give it a try sometime.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

- F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Me 1, you 0.

[WheelWalker]

236. Agreed.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[WilliamPitt]

256. Perfect.

[baldguy]

254. Being anti-war is the most pro-military stance one can take.

[Skittles]

268. I am a military veteran and I am anti-war

what exactly are you trying to say?

[pinboy3niner]

271. The poster is no longer with us

He flamed out with an OP in Meta.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=290870&sub=trans

[Skittles]

277. good

the idea one must be pro-war to support the troops is utterly insane

[H2O Man]

200. Right.

It never fails.

Certain topics bring forth the worst in some of our beast fiends.

[speedoo]

159. Thank you.

It's really hard for this vet to read the bullshit in this thread from ignorant people.

[Union Scribe]

306. Yeah, a number of posters decided to dress as soldier-spitting stereotypes

this Halloween. This is the shit I tell friends and family that liberals aren't like, then I come here and see it. I just hope these drips keep their mouths shut in front of undecided voters.

[redgreenandblue]

308. I'm not allowed to offer them a cup of tea?

Would seem like a nice gesture with all that rain.

[sarge43]

388. When they're off duty, of course. They probably would prefer coffee.

Let's put it this way: If the worst thing any enlisted ever has to do is slow march for a half hour in some wind and rain, they are blessed beyond deserving. There are far nastier duties than that one and no combat required.

[tavernier]

61. snort

Reading all the comments, all I could think was, "Leave it to us democrats to bicker about every single post that lands on DU." Herding cats.

I do not belong to any organized party. I'm a democrat. (Will Rogers)

[randome]

62. I don't think those are real guards.

They look like the GI Joe dolls I had as a child. Always wondered where they disappeared to.

[TwilightGardener]

68. It's a nice tradition.

[bigregg4838]

72. In 2020 We are gonna learn that it was Hoffa under there the whole time. #JokesOnUs

nah, but that is a hell of a thing to do (keep guards around him 24/7). HONOR!!

[SweetieD]

77. This picture is from September 18, 2012 not today.

Here is the gallery of other photographs from that day.

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/25447106_rRDwDr#!i=2095607412&k=89XQw3D

Be weary of fake photographs. A lot of people are putting them out and attributing all kinds of rain and flood pics to this storm.

[ReasonableToo]

106. Thanks for being on the ball.

I really hate getting mislead - by either side.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

125. Buzz Feed has apologized for posting old photo

BuzzFeed ‏@BuzzFeed
Apologies for Tweeting an old picture of tomb of the unknown soldiers. Here's some more to watch for: http://bzfd.it/SoOwn1

[ProfessionalLeftist]

203. Yea thanks!

That's the second faked photo I've seen today. Jeeze. (ie: not 'faked' but rather not from today and not attributable to Sandy)

[MadrasT]

80. Beautiful.

[MynameisBlarney]

83. Gotta admit....

That is pretty badass.
But hopefully their CO will get them outta there before the worst hits.

[Marinedem]

86. Don't worry about them.

They have protocols in place for every condition.

There are exceptionally rare occurrences (flying debris and such) that gets them brought in (against their will in most cases).

Also, as the weather gets worse (hotter/colder/rainier), the intervals at which they are rotated is sped up.

[randome]

104. When all else fails, open the door in the back of the tomb and climb in!

[MynameisBlarney]

322. Good to know, thanks.

I figured they would have some sort of plan for such things. But not having ever been in the military, I didn't know.

[mnhtnbb]

85. Well, it does beat getting shot at.

[bluestate10]

87. Impressive. nt

[thelarge]

98. Too Bad!

Turd, or one of the other Rmoney spawn can't take a turn! A bit of honor may do them some good! Bet if it was Ann's dancing nag, they'd be there, if only to check on the "help"!

[Recursion]

117. Which one was I?

What complete bullshit.

[Throd]

118. I didn't think a sarcasm tag was necessary.

[Recursion]

123. D'oh. Sorry

Unfortunately given some of this thread, it probably was...

[11 Bravo]

130. You were wrong. Prior to reading your post #118, the response I had in mind to you would have ...

almost certainly been shit-canned by a jury, and might possibly have gotten me banned.

[MineralMan]

144. It was necessary. There are people in this thread posting

similar things in all seriousness. Frankly, most people here don't know who you are or how you think. Satire and sarcasm only work when they are clearly signaled in some way. You did not do that. It sounded just like some of the other noxious, simplistic, ignorant posts in this thread.

[slackmaster]

121. My dad lied about his age so that he could enlist in the Navy in 1934 at 15 to get out of poverty

He had been working for the California Conservation Corps building trails in the mountains of San Diego County for $1.50 per day. He contracted rheumatic fever, and was treated in the old Balboa Naval Hospital near the San Diego Zoo.

When he told this story, he always looked at the ground and shook his head. He'd say "The food they fed me in that hospital was the best I'd ever had in my life."

So, he had his mother write a letter falsely stating his birth year as 1918 (he was really born in 1919.) He enlisted for a four-year tour of duty, and re-enlisted in 1938 planning to get out in 1942 and hopefully enroll in a college or university.

Things didn't work out quite as he had planned.

ETA I now see that Throd's post was sarcastic. Sorry I didn't pick up on it automatically.

[MineralMan]

127. Your post is bullshit. Plain and simple.

People joined the military for the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, and WWII also. How many of them do you suppose joined for the three reasons you mention.

I am disgusted by the ignorance what you wrote displays.

[slackmaster]

131. Throd's post is an meant as an example of "Things I learned on DU..." sarcasm

I reacted badly to it initially as well.

[MineralMan]

147. In a thread where others are also posting ignorant nonsense

about this subject, posting something that is satirical or sarcastic without better signals will end up getting your post locked many times. I have no idea who Throd is, what he or she thinks, or anything else. The words speak for themselves. The post is hidden.

[rppper]

146. Wow.....you assume a lot of things...

Funny thing though....I don't fall into any of your three categories.....I'm a white college educated man, from the south....my ex wife called me evil a few times....my kids probably thought it too....but to my knowledge I've never went on some blood orgy you describe....not during my time in the navy anyhow....

I did, however, have the honor of doing morning colors on the Arizona memorial once, which, although it didn't involve the pagentry of the December 7th ceremony, it was both an honor and a moving experience to be part of it....

Some of the posts here remind me of my days helping drug addicts.....you always get the gung ho "super NA man" types that rocket through the 12 steps in 90 days, call their sponsor, make 3 meetings a day, and 3 weeks after rehab are smoking crack with no shoes on their feet....it's not about the wars or the leaders that sent them there, it's about honoring the people who were taken from us prematurely....there is nothing jingoistic about that.....please direct your "outrage" somewhere more productive.....

[freshwest]

120. A hurricane is nothing compared to combat. Being buffeted by rain and wind, a force of nature, is a

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:30 AM - Edit history (2)

far cry from the tide of emotions that must pass through everyone who has been in the field of battle.

The drudgery, the deaths, both friendly and not, the questions of the validity of one's actions and the reasons to train and perform one's duties, are much stronger than being out in the wind and rain of a storm, a heat wave or a snow storm.

I do not approve of any of our nation's adventures abroad, nor do I care for the military budget being the sacred cow that must not be touched, while people who have paid in civilian life to arm and feed and house and care for soldiers, perish. Our world has had this pageantry of the hero forever, and winners and losers.

Each and every war transforms not only the nation conquered, but the nation that does the act. Wiser souls have said there are no winners in wars. Even the Pope has made a declaration that they change nothing of substance, the problems of mankind still remain. All that has changed are the boundaries on maps or the size of war profiteers bank accounts.

We have been coarsened by our constant militarism. It was not the plan of the Founding Fathers to behave how we have for over half a century. Because all those with good intent or desperation, take your pick, depending on the soldier you know, do not profit like the private contractors nor the companies that make the weapons and push for their product to be used. A product that has murdered millions, shredded the conscience of a nation, polluted the Earth and broken the hearts of mankind.

Yet the soldier, unless they are proven to be guilty of a crime against humanity, is as much a victim as those he kills, in one respect. Because he carries death inside him for the rest of his life, has broken the connection of family and life and love for those he killed. The country or vision he may have thought he joined to save, is not what he is anymore, no matter how he tries to make up for it or deny it.

We are children, both men and women. We are easily influenced beings. Those who have time to stand back from the tumult of war and do business, like the Cheneys and others we love to hate, will not be harmed, and they see us as expendables on their bottom line.

There is a meaning in symbolism that is irresistable and compelling, deeply spiritual and mind dumbing at the same time. It is beyond the power of most humans to resist. The scene in the manger of Mary with the Christ child, and other such iconic visions, touch us in an inner place we dare not put into words, that we hold sacred and will defend, to the point of insanity. But I will try to put into words my feelings about this ritual.

They are protecting the Unknowns. A man they have never met, nameless, but a human being and a brother in arms. That symbolism to me represents the country or government itself, which is much larger than the military. The libertarian view of life, is one cares for those one knows, and the all of the rest of humanity one doesn't know, are of no account, as it doesn't help the self to survive.

These men are not protecting the tomb out of jingoism. It is out of a sense of shared humanity, that those who have served in such a way, near death or with death, struggle to find again. Many rituals are this way, births, marriages, funerals, speaking in images what is too painful to express in words.

I don't have any problem with this, but it should not be used as an excuse for more wars and I don't believe it is. Since these are volunteers, they aren't adding to the national debt, or whatever some may complain about.

I have no worries or concerns about those on this duty doing something worthless or dangerous. They are honoring someone who faced the ultimate danger in combat and died from it. They didn't die and are grateful for that. They want to celebrate that someone cared enough to die. Many of us know that some things are more important than our own safety and our lives. There are some things worth sacrifice of many our hopes and dreams to protect others.

Now, it may be argued that the persons were drafted, served not wholly of their free will or well informed opinion. But they were human beings once who enjoyed the warmth of sun and the relief of the rain, the feeling of grass beneath their feet, the love of a mother, perhaps a lover, or the many other pleasures of life. I feel they are guarding those things, not a dead body inside a tomb.

Just my two cents.

[cliffordu]

182. Thank you for saying

what I would have if I were better about writing about these things.

[freshwest]

222. You're welcome, cliffordu. Let's support each other in all that is good.

[cliffordu]

241. Yep. Lets.

[fishwax]

245. wow.

Thoughtfulness and nuance and compassion for all sides. I get the sense you were moved by the conflict staged in this thread and the massive tangle of the in-some-ways understandable but sometimes misdirected/oversimplified/referred anger/pain that occasionally makes a thread such as this incomprehensible. Maybe I'm just projecting, and your inspiration was something else entirely. But I appreciate that you took the time to share the fruits of the process by which you worked through some of the issues in this thread. What I'm trying to say: this is quite a thoughtful and memorable post.

[freshwest]

251. Thanks for your post, too. We're all at different places, let's seek the best always.

That is what we are building here. People have reasons for what they say and do, the mystery of their lives is just that to others, a mystery. If one believes in equality, the contemplation of the variety of human expression is humbling. It is a wonderful thing to be alive.

[rppper]

265. Well said!

NT

[freshwest]

269. If we love life, respect it. That's what they're doing.

[PavePusher]

299. Wow. That was stunning. Thank you very, very much for saying that. n/t

[nolabear]

132. Since I was an early critic on this thread I want to say I utterly respect the tomb and symbolism.

But I still think htere is a time to protect the living and those men, no matter how honored they might feel, need to come in from the storm and help serve the living.

Btw I grew up military and sometimes it goes overboard.

[obamanut2012]

193. This

[hockeynut57]

135. way too many people confuse nationalism for patriotism nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. I think this is one of the ultimate examples of the latter. n/t

[ReasonableToo]

156. Agreed.

[Pharaoh]

140. Interesting how this society

honors chunks of granite but does not seem to care about flesh and blood veterans and soldiers who are merely fodder for a corporate global agenda.

[obamanut2012]

196. I agree

Which is why this has always bothered me. We have disabled vets from WW II until the kid hurt yesterday that are treated like garbage, although Obama has helped them more than any other Presidents. Vets that aren't disabled can't find jobs and the GOP won't help them. Scads of vets, especially women, are homeless. Those with "invisible wounds" get no treatment. And it goes on and on.

I have no problem with honoring the military dead, but we should honor those who served and are still living first.

[lumberjack_jeff]

232. You're missing the point by 180° n/t

[AlecBGreen]

141. its an older pic (Sept '12)

but the point is still the same: there are those who will sacrifice their short-term comfort to make a point of honoring those who gave up everything. Thanks guys

[obamanut2012]

167. This is not a recent photo

It was taken during a September rainstorm, as per Buzzfeed and Snopes.

[upi402]

170. recent pic

same idea anyway

[ProfessionalLeftist]

205. Thanks.....

...had no idea the photo wasn't from today. That's twice today I've seen photos going around that are misrepresented as being attributable to Sandy.

IMO this one is just as impressive!

[npk]

172. Why anyone would have a problem with this is beyond me.

Showing respect to those who gave their lives for this country, is now a bad thing. Wow! No matter what you may think of military complex, I would think this is one thing we could all agree on.

[Rocky2007]

175. Respect...This is what America is all about!

I was just about to post this same image.

Romney has no clue about such things.

"Sandy" is telling us to take warning...!!!

[OldDem2012]

181. This is a symbol of the honor and respect due to those Americans who have fallen in battle and ....

....were never identified. It is also for the families who never knew, except in general terms, what happened to their loved ones who went off to war and never returned.

This duty at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is never halted for any reason. We owe the unknown a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid.

Just in case everyone was wondering, here are the numbers of all of the US MIAs from every major conflict from WWI to the present:

* WWI = 3,350
* WWII = 30,314
* Korea = 4,759
* Vietnam = 1,679
* Afghanistan = 1
* Iraq = 2

Total MIAs = 40,105

United States military casualties of war

[ProfessionalLeftist]

235. THANK YOU...to you...

...and them. Whatever day the photo is from, they all deserve our remembrance and respect, as well as those who perform the solemn duty of guarding their memory in whatever conditions arise.

[Hippo_Tron]

186. Just so everyone knows, there's no hurricane force winds in the DC metro area just yet

At the moment, they're just guarding the tomb in a rainstorm. I imagine they have plans in place to guard the tomb safely once conditions get worse.

On edit: I was correct

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57542139/despite-sandy-soldiers-guard-tomb-of-unknown-soldier/

Once the Arlington Cemetery closes for harsh weather, the guards will put on camo gear and guard the tomb from a sheltered area.

[underoath]

240. Awesome picture!

[Bucky]

247. I don't care if the pic's debunked. It still reminds me of something else to be grateful for.

[Enrique]

249. i wonder what is the source of the photo

it could be from a newspaper photographer, who knows.

Or maybe it is from the military's propaganda office. I'm sorry if it offends anyone for me to point out that our military engages in very vigorous propaganda. You shouldn't be offended, you should be proud, of course our military is beyond top-of-the-line, and propaganda is a very important part of any military, so of course our excellent military has the best propaganda anyone has ever seen.

[sarge43]

255. As been pointed out several times, guards are posted at the Tomb 24/7/365.

The photo could have been taken on any rainy day or the military propaganda office has control over the weather and staged the shot.

[Enrique]

259. i never doubted it was real

I assumed those soldiers are actually on duty, etc. When I said it might be propaganda, I didn't mean to say it might be faked, I meant that the photo was created for a purpose.

I feel the same way about photos from inside the White House. If the photo was taken by a newspaper photographer, I look at it different than if it was taken by the official White House photographer. Or pictures from wars around the world, some come from newspapers and others come from one side or the other.

The picture in the OP is just posted without any source whatsoever. I'm seeing now that the picture is from earlier, the military has confirmed that, so it looks like someone might have engaged in some unofficial propaganda by posting it as if it was from the current storm (I don't mean the OP, I mean the person who first put it out on the Web).

[sarge43]

260. I sit corrected. n/t

[oxymoron]

273. Ok, need a tissue. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

295. :)

[davidthegnome]

301. Inspiring

My Grandfather was a Marine during World War II - I don't know if he ever had the honor of guarding the tomb of the unknown soldier, but I know he deeply admired those who did. So do I. I would have become a Marine years ago if my circumstances had allowed it.

These men have my deepest admiration, respect and gratitude - as do those they guard.

[4bucksagallon]

302. I can't believe some of the disrespectful crap I have seen posted on this thread.

As a veteran and proud member of VVAW I still can't wrap my head around how some of those with high post counts can get away with this. You can't tell me they have never revealed themselves before. I am somewhat shocked by what I have read from some long term members......

[Atypical Liberal]

336. It's simple.

Look at what America's military has been largely used to do over the last 70 years.

Then consider that we have not had a draft for nearly 40 of those last 70 years.

Since everyone should know that, what does that say about people who volunteer to support such likely endeavors?

[Zynx]

315. Some people here have let cynicism get the better of them.

This is one of the most moving things I've ever seen.

[era veteran]

318. Beautiful image, says a lot to me.

Some of you people make arguing with Conservatives hard.
Shame on you, soldier on brothers.

[ourbluenation]

326. My sons best friend from high school serves in that guard. Wonderful young man and...

...dyed in the wool democrat. He is so proud to be a part of this guard and considers it an honor and achievement, as do all of us who love and support him and the other military folks in our lives.

There is a lot of misuse and abuse of our military. This tradition is not one of them.

[Flaxbee]

360. Wish those guys could at least cover their ears... poor fellas.

Honorable, of course, but they must feel miserable with all that water pelting into their ears...

[Liberal_in_LA]

385. wonderful photo. kick back to the top.