Rec this thread if you think the crazy weather of recent times is due to human-caused climate change

[garybeck]

[Odin2005]

1. K&R

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

2. kick

[polichick]

3. Shhh, that's an inconvenient truth...

...not even Dems like to go there.

[deutsey]

126. Yeah...it's like I've seen all this in a movie somewhere

[edhopper]

4. No doubt

in my mind.

[rock]

5. No, that's not how it works

Climate change is extremely gradual, while weather patterns can vary randomly with wide statistical swings. The good news is that this may convince many people that do not understand the mechanism that climate change is manifest and they will desire to do something about it.

[edhopper]

7. It is how it works

The warming atmosphere feeds larger and more powerful storms. So a storm like this, a big hurricane so late in the season with this much force is part of the GCC model.

[TahitiNut]

64. Exactly.

What's "gradual" is the increase in frequency of such larger storms But we've been experiencing 'arming' for decades, now. The 'human factor' has accelerated the change, so it's less "gradual" than if it were entirely caused by cyclic factors.

[Speck Tater]

9. Everything must always be couched in ambiguous weasel words

so that people are never quite sure whether or not science believes global warming matters. That way the general public will be lulled into complacency, and lacking any strong motivation to do anything about the problem, will indirectly contribute to the extinction of the human species, and who knows how many other species as well.

Keep up the good work of down-playing the danger to people who don't know how science works, but DO vote on the issues. Heaven forbid that they should think global warming is actually dangerous. After all, scientific precision is much more important than the survival of the species.

[The Wielding Truth]

38. I agree with you. This is what happens when the ozone is compromised by pollution. These radical and

severe weather trends are symptoms of a systemic problem. We should worry about our atmosphere. It is our sustaining core.

I have heard that " global weirding" is a more appropriate name because weather will be strange - hotter in places rainier in places, snowier and colder in places. But the world's temperatures will be increasing and that is the problem for humans.

[AAO]

58. I can't believe how people can't understand that the earth is warming

That's why they call it Global Warming! And it fucks with all seasons... Unbefuckinglievable!!!

[The Wielding Truth]

82. We know it. We can see the truth. We will get the votes. Reason must overcome propaganda!

I believe in America, Democrats and Our President. We must save our country and it's people from greed and selfishness while protecting personal liberty. We must defeat these wretched Republicans who are under the illusion that government run by the 1% and not the public can lead to anything else but ruin of our democracy.

Get out and help anyone to take a step back and look at how much better we are now than under Republican rule.

[AAO]

91. You are right !

This is the new revolution. Those that understand the nature of the problems we face, and strongly feel the need to do something about it, are the new revolutionaries. The salvation of the democracy created by the US Constitution is paramount. If government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall perish from this earth, then we will become Great Britain!

[garybeck]

11. Nope. Sorry, but

yes it is gradual. that's exactly what's happening. Otherwise we'd be having storms like this on a weekly basis. The fact is that the trend is that storm patterns are changing. here in vermont we've had the "100 year flood" twice in the last year. Hurricanes like Irene and Sandy are bigger and stronger and reaching further North than normally happens. We've had extreme drought,there have been extreme an unusual weather patterns for the last few years. The global mean temperature has been rising steadily. Glaciers are melting all over the planet. I heard several officials in NJ and NY saying they have never seen anything like Sandy in their entire lives. The same thing with Irene last year.

This is exactly what scientists (and Gore) have been predicting.

even in your post you said "climate change is manifest." If it is manifest, then how can you deny that the strange weather patterns are unrelated?

[rock]

12. Good points all

"This is exactly what scientists (and Gore) have been predicting. " Yes, but not at this rate. These are just weather variations not climate variations. To repeat my point: this is good because it convinces so many people that what they are seeing is climate change.

[JDPriestly]

16. With climate change, the weather variations become more pronounced.

In addition, we forget how far back the industrial revolution goes and just how we have harmed our environment over more than a century.

In addition, many of the changes in our social organization that fossil fuel use has enabled have made us more sensitive, more aware of the weather variations that are aggravated by climate change.

A city of the size of New York would be impossible without the widespread availability of electricity, without heating fuel, without airplanes, steel production, even the use of plastic wrap and refrigeration for meat in our stores.

Climate change is not just CO2 in the atmosphere. It is a lot more than that. Our world has changed thanks and no thanks to our use of fossil fuels and our human overpopulation of the planet.

[reusrename]

30. True, they predicted that it would take decades to get change with statistical significance.

Now they know that they were being optimistic with that forecast. Extreme summer temperatures have been linked to global warming:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/warming-links.html

[rock]

33. Thanks for the link

Allow me some time to absorb this. In any case, let's not jump on every passing band wagon. I'm cautious and therefore slow, like Global Warming. And welcome aboard!

[garybeck]

36. suggestion: read what the experts say.

What is the relationship between global warming, climate, and weather?

Weather is what’s happening outside the door right now; today a thunderstorm is approaching. Climate, on the other hand, is the pattern of weather measured over a number of decades.

Over the past 30 years there has been a pattern of increasingly higher average temperatures for the whole world. In fact, the first decade of this century (2001–2010) was the hottest decade recorded since reliable records began in the late 1800s.

These rising temperatures—caused primarily by an increase of heat-trapping emissions in the atmosphere created when we burn coal, oil, and gas to generate electricity, drive our cars, and fuel our businesses—are what we refer to as global warming.

One consequence of global warming is an increase in both ocean evaporation into the atmosphere, and the amount of water vapor the atmosphere can hold. High levels of water vapor in the atmosphere in turn create conditions more favorable for heavier precipitation in the form of intense rain and snow storms.

The United States is already experiencing more intense rain and snow storms.
As the Earth warms, the amount of rain or snow falling in the heaviest one percent of storms has risen nearly 20 percent on average in the United States—almost three times the rate of increase in total precipitation between 1958 and 2007.

In other words, the heaviest storms have very recently become even heavier.

The Northeast has seen a 67 percent increase in the amount of rain or snow falling in the heaviest storms.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/impacts/global-warming-rain-snow-tornadoes.html

lots more at the link. you're hiding your head in the sand if you think these storms (and other changes in weather patterns) are not related to climate change.

[rock]

47. Well, I see I haven't been clear enough in my posts, and that's my fault

1) I believe in Global Warming (a slight misnomer as some regions may have a global cooling);
2) Anecdotal evidence is the weakest kind of evidence and not even so regarded by scientists;
3) Global warming can only be proved by a careful statistical analysis of the cases and conditions;
4) The point I am trying to make is that it's good that most people will see these anecdotal examples as proof of Global Warming/Climate Change. This may spur them to do something about it.

[reusrename]

55. It's true that different people give different weights to different types of evidence.

I've noticed that myself. To me, the physics are the most compelling. We've known for centuries that increased CO2 will cause warming due to the greenhouse effect. Fourier was the first to theorize about it, and others have proved it centuries ago.

Now we have new mathematics that did not exist only a couple of decades ago, and we know how to look at dynamic systems differently. The relationship between weather and climate has a fractal quality to it. Lorenz attractors explain the cold extremes that accompany the other changes. To me, the statistics and the anecdotal stuff just verifies the physics.

People do look at this stuff differently. The generally accepted theory of warming and climate change is that when heat is added to the system it will become more chaotic, meaning that the attractors will move further from the center.

The extremes will move farther apart such that weather can become both hotter AND colder.

This is what the models predict, and this is exactly what the data is showing. When you freeze the animation in the NASA link it is clear that the spread is also widening as the data shifts to the right over time:





Note that this illustration just includes the "high temperature" events that have been recorded. Under the theory, the "cold temperature" events should show a similar pattern, only as a mirror image. I haven't seen such an animation, but it would be right on point to the issue you raised.

[garybeck]

70. you are assuming

that rec'ing this thread implies that everyone is just focused on one particular event and not looking at long term statistics.

i'm not sure where you are getting that assumption from.

most people here already know your #3 above. most people acknowledge you can't make a judgment based on a single event. most people are rec'ing this thread based on long term statistical evidence. that's the whole point. that's what the union of concerned scientists are saying in the article I posted. they're not referring to any one particular event. it's statistical analysis, just like you call for in your point #3.

to refresh your memory, here is your #3:

3) Global warming can only be proved by a careful statistical analysis of the cases and conditions;

that's the question posed at the OP. look at the wording. it doesn't say "rec this thread if you think Sandy alone proves global warming is real."

the whole point is, the long term statistical analysis is there. the droughts, floods, bigger storms, heat waves, and yes Sandy, together are all expected events, based on such analysis.

so by your own judgment you should be rec'ing this thread.

[rock]

81. I once knew a guy named Doug

who once told me if I assume I make an ass out of him and somebody else (whom I don't recall but that's not important). So to avoid embarrassing Doug I try not to assume too much. And I was not making the assumption you think I was.

When the droughts, floods, bigger storms, heat waves, and Sandy, are all analyzed by scientists and conclusions are drawn I tend to trust those conclusions. When people (non-scientists) rattle off individual cases, they're anecdotal. Now I hear ordinary people say those are examples of climate changes, but I don't hear the scientists saying such. As far as I can tell the examples sighted are simple variations in the weather. If the scientists tell me different then I'll rec the OP.

[reusrename]

87. Weather events are, by definition, variations in the weather.

The relationship between weather and climate is like the relationship between a bay and an ocean. It has fractal properties.





I know I should smile when I say that.

[garybeck]

115. It's called the Union of Concerned *Scientists*. read what they say.

they are analyzing the data, not "rattling off anecdotal individual cases"

[MH1]

101. "global warming" is a correct term

"some regions may have a global cooling" doesn't make sense. if it's regional, it's not "global".

That said, you are correct that some regions may experience cooler climate. But the global average will be warmer. Hence, global warming.

That said, I don't give a fig what we call it to the public. Whatever gets them to pay attention and realize that we are destroying this wonderful planet, that should have been their kids and grandkids real inheritance, that's the words we should use.

[garybeck]

116. personally I like the term "global warming"

saying "climate change" instead is giving in to the jerks who were trying to deny global warming.

stick up for what is right. call it what it is

[deafskeptic]

79. that's because

Positive feedback wasn't taken into account.

For the record, there's nothing "positive" about about positive feedback. It just means climate change will happen a lot faster and it will be ampified.

From a human being pov, it may be gradual but in geologcial time frame, this is very sudden.

[reusrename]

89. Ah, yes! That's super important.

Like when the snow melts and causes dark soot to be exposed, which absorbs more heat, causing a greater rate of melting. Or droughts causing enormous fires which put more CO2 into the air.

Positive feedback. This is the truly horrifying aspect of global warming. The potential for methane releases, reversal of deep sea currents, etc.

[BainsBane]

28. If the oceans weren't warming

We couldn't have a hurricane in the NE at the end of Oct. Heat from the ocean fuels hurricanes.

[heaven05]

32. well

I live near one of the great lakes, near u of m. the winds from the east coast were/are amazing. Yeah still going, gust of 59mph. Operative words here, very strong winds from the east coast. If this happens, in the future on a "gradual" basis that's still unacceptable. Methinks it won't be gradual because all the models show a speedup of climate change and it's not gradual. Who's to say this won't happen on a more frequent basis? I don't think anyone but the concerned scientist know and the quote I read of their reaction to our climate now was "alarmed". And my middle name is not chicken little.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. This is part of the trend

Of more powerful systems later in the year as predicted by the science. This change has taken place over a generation or more, yes, it's been gradual. In more southern latitudes, again predicted, it was felt earlier.

Inconvenient truth, I know.

[NickB79]

41. Define "extremely gradual"

Climate change can be gradual, until you hit a tipping point and it's not anymore.

For example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619142112.htm

The ice core showed the Northern Hemisphere briefly emerged from the last ice age some 14,700 years ago with a 22-degree-Fahrenheit spike in just 50 years, then plunged back into icy conditions before abruptly warming again about 11,700 years ago. Startlingly, the Greenland ice core evidence showed that a massive "reorganization" of atmospheric circulation in the Northern Hemisphere coincided with each temperature spurt, with each reorganization taking just one or two years, said the study authors.

We've already had gradual global warming since the start of the Industrial Revolution 200 years ago. At what point do we go over the edge?

[grantcart]

48. Agree with you. This is the gradual part. So if we can start to see some of the extreme effects

during the gradual period just wait until things start to accelerate.

[Chemisse]

86. Just a slight increase in global temperatures

Can add a whole lot of 'fuel' to energize large storms.

And that is just the obvious result; the changes are pretty complex, such as the shifts in wind patterns due to cold water pouring off the ice sheets, etc.

[RoccoR5955]

94. Keep denying that it exists,

and maybe it'll go away.
Is that the meme?

[joshcryer]

109. Gradual? Arctic sea ice will be gone in 5-10 years.

Gone. Kaput. Pow. Game over.

We were supposed to be entering a new ice age.

If anything Climate Scientists have underplayed and been very conservative on the effects that climate change is having on the planet.

[WilliamPitt]

6. I do

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12404-the-eye-of-the-storm-that-sees-us-all

[prairierose]

31. Good piece, Will.....

I hope that you and yours are safe today.

[WilliamPitt]

53. All is well

Thanks.

[FVZA_Colonel]

8. Megastorms on the coasts and droughts on the plains are what we need to get used to.

[garybeck]

18. ha!

the title of your post gets cut off on my screen and reads:

"Megastorms on the coasts and droughts on the plains are what we need"

[Hell Hath No Fury]

10. BIG K&R

[RepublicansRZombies]

13. There are hundreds of weather modification corporations providing services around the globe

What are they all doing?

If they are not preventing disasters, could they be creating them?

We have a group of the most greedy sociopathic criminals to ever walk the earth, and we all know about disaster capitalism.

I'm sure I am just a 'conspiracy theorist'...but the US government has been looking into weather modification since the cold war, fearing that Russia would achieve this before US.

[AverageJoe90]

68. Well, I've done some research myself, and....

TBH, indirect weather modification is actually plausible in some respects, however, though there's also been lots of disinfo going around, too; contrary to rumors I've heard in some places(though not here), HAARP, for example, cannot create hurricanes or manipulate thunderstorms and/or their products, such as hail or tornadoes.

[octoberlib]

14. K&R

[RepublicansRZombies]

15. It is an inconvenient truth that Al Gore was instrumental in shipping US jobs overseas

pushing free trade agreements that cause US corporations to move to foreign countries so that they could pollute freely.

What kind of environmentalist would do that?

And then to tell us to change our light bulbs and not say a damn thing about buying all our products from China.

It is time to attack pollution! Stop arguing about whether the earth is heating or cooling, and just get rid of the pollution that is causing asthma and cancer, which we can all agree is a problem. The rates are rising astronomically.

First of all, clearly, We need to end free trade agreements. You don't buy all your products from countries that pollute and then point the finger at them. What a bunch of hypocrites. We are supposed to set and example, have real regulations, only buy and sell products that are produced responsibly.

They want to divide and conquer, and this argument helps to serve the 1%ers whose solution is to tax us more.

Let's just clean up the air because it's the right thing to so, I'm sure we could get some sane Republicans behind that.

And then, there are amazing scientists our there working to help us, Let's focus on them. Quit arguing with Republicans about whether it is happening or not, and get these solutions going. We have algae that eats C02, Brits just came up with a way to turn CO2 into fuel!...our scientists have developed ways to help us and they need our support. WE need to focus on solutions and ignore the people who are still denying evolution for Christ's sake!

[AlbertCat]

17. You don't buy all your products from countries that pollute and then point the finger at them

Well, China may be #1 in CO2.... but the US is #2.

[AverageJoe90]

69. Absolutely! n/t

[ChillZilla]

78. Good post. You can add mining, drilling, forestry etc

to industries that we feel oh-so comfortable hamstringing in our own country to send those jobs to where the brown people live, and if that destroys their country well, so what, we got what we needed and didn't have to suffer for it.

[Bigredhunk]

19. Yup

[slackmaster]

20. It's not possible to tie any specific weather event or even an apparent pattern to climate change

So I cannot Rec this thread.

[garybeck]

34. yes it is.

perhaps not possible with a specific event, but with patterns it definitely is possible. that's what they climatologists have been saying for years. are you a climatologist? maybe you should check out what the experts say. try this:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/impacts/global-warming-rain-snow-tornadoes.html

What is the relationship between global warming, climate, and weather?
Weather is what’s happening outside the door right now; today a thunderstorm is approaching. Climate, on the other hand, is the pattern of weather measured over a number of decades.

Over the past 30 years there has been a pattern of increasingly higher average temperatures for the whole world. In fact, the first decade of this century (2001–2010) was the hottest decade recorded since reliable records began in the late 1800s.

These rising temperatures—caused primarily by an increase of heat-trapping emissions in the atmosphere created when we burn coal, oil, and gas to generate electricity, drive our cars, and fuel our businesses—are what we refer to as global warming.

One consequence of global warming is an increase in both ocean evaporation into the atmosphere, and the amount of water vapor the atmosphere can hold. High levels of water vapor in the atmosphere in turn create conditions more favorable for heavier precipitation in the form of intense rain and snow storms.

The United States is already experiencing more intense rain and snow storms.
As the Earth warms, the amount of rain or snow falling in the heaviest one percent of storms has risen nearly 20 percent on average in the United States—almost three times the rate of increase in total precipitation between 1958 and 2007.

In other words, the heaviest storms have very recently become even heavier.

The Northeast has seen a 67 percent increase in the amount of rain or snow falling in the heaviest storms.

[AverageJoe90]

61. TBH, Gary, I can't help but agree 100% with this.

Slackmaster, it is indeed true that weather on any given day(or any specific event, such as the heatwaves of 2011 & 2012 or Hurricane Sandy) doesn't equal climate, but as written in this article, climate IS in fact, weather data compared over time, usually over a span of many decades.

And it is indeed possible that Sandy repeats could perhaps become somewhat more likely as time goes on, I think.

[caraher]

21. Welcome to the new normal

It's here early and it's not getting more stable in our lifetimes.

[oldbanjo]

22. I think climate change is affecting the

weather, in 10 years the water level will be this level always due to all the ice melting.

[MoonRiver]

23. Of course it is.

Unfortunately it affects those of us who want to stop the madness and deniers equally.

[freedom fighter jh]

24. I almost didn't rec because

I'm so busy doing other things that I have no time to make even a minuscule contribution toward solving the biggest crisis that humanity has ever faced.

Wake up!

Amy Goodman did a piece in which she played Romney at the RNC mocking Obama for O's promise the slow the oceans' rise. Republicans laughed. Not so funny now. But very powerful.

[WillyT]

26. HUGE K & R !!!

[Kalidurga]

27. Human excellerated and exacerbated

But, caused probably not. I wouldn't say that to a mixed crowd though. They would say see you don't believe in human caused global warming. Well, maybe not. But, I do very much think we are making things worse way worse. Can we completely stop it, probably not. But, we do need to mitigate it as much as possible and instead it seems we are moving in the opposite direction and the people most effected by this will be the people least able to do anything about it.

[calimary]

29. Definitely recommending.

Shared Will Pitt's Truthout essay ( http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12404-the-eye-of-the-storm-that-sees-us-all ) on Facebook, with this:

Deniers, PLEASE come in out of the cold (and superstorm, and melting glaciers, and freak temperature swings, and never-heard-of-before weather phenomena)!

[Chorophyll]

35. Rec. Been through all kinds of storms here in NY, but these gigantic monsters are new,

and obviously due to rising sea levels and warming oceans.

[AnnieK401]

37. Recommended

Oh wait, David and Charles said if there is such a thing as climate change it has nothing to do with humans - and they must be right. Wonder if David's home in NY got hit?


http://www.billionaireshomes.com/david-koch-house.php

[amborin]

39. k and r, and: Duh!

[Comrade_McKenzie]

40. Of course it is and anyone that denies it doesn't deserve a seat at the table. nt

[Junkdrawer]

42. How could it not be?

Sandy was the product of three meteorological phenomena:

1.) A stalled, blocking high pressure system south of Greenland

2.) A deep trough in the jet stream

3.) Abnormally warm Atlantic sea surface temperatures

The first two have been shown by Jennifer Francis of Rutgers to be related to the record Arctic melt (see http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021655079) and the third is just plain old GW.

[flamingdem]

43. Romney sneers at talk of Climate Change

[joesdaughter]

104. The Sneer

OK- What irks me more than the thought of Romney in Speedos with his arms out-stretched and eyes covered with cotton balls to avoid getting the spray tan in his eyes, is the vision of him in front of a mirror perfecting his condescending smirk as he practiced delivering these lines of his speech.

[flamingdem]

107. Oh the pain, the pain

One more week of Mitt..

[LeftInTX]

44. Well, they've been warning us about sea level changes

The damage from this storm was storm surge....

[redqueen]

45. It is tragic that anyone could still somehow manage not to see this.

How can people manage to keep their heads so firmly lodged ...

Whistling past the graveyard?

Brawndo's got electrolytes?

Jeebus is gonna fix it anyway?

[Hugabear]

46. There is absolutely no evidence that climate change is happening.

There haven't been any temperature increases for 17 years.

The Antarctic ice shelf is growing.

It got really really cold in some areas last year.

Global warming and climate change is a sham.

I know all of this because some right-wing radio hacks who have absolutely no education in climatology told me so.



Seriously though, if I could rec this thread a thousand times I would.

[Whisp]

49. just have a look at this crazy time sequence of air traffic around the world...

This has got to be one of the biggest contributors to our problems in regards to climate change. Look at what the hell we put up there every day! oiy,

[marions ghost]

77. interesting map

People think the atmosphere is thick--actually from the ground up to the ozone layer is only 30 km (20 miles roughly).

Twenty miles. I tell people that and they are amazed...

[queenjane]

50. An elderly lady interviewed by my local "newspaper"

was indignant at the suggestion that humans could affect the weather.

"That's ridiculous," she said. "Only God controls the weather".

So, I guess "god" is responsible for Sandy. Own it, "god"!

[craigmatic]

51. 2 years in a row a hurricane has hit the east coast and not the southeast. What more evidence do you

need?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

52. Funny how the rich own all of the ocean front property....

....and they support Republicans....

[lpbk2713]

54. Bye bye polar ice caps.

[AAO]

56. Only a moran would think otherwise! n/t

[burrowowl]

57. K&R!

[salinen]

59. Even if it is not human-caused

we have a global problem that will not be solved by human exceptionalism.

[AverageJoe90]

60. ACC is no doubt playing a major part in today's problems.

To be perfectly honest, we don't know if Sandy is the 'new normal' as some may believe, or if it's just a freak storm with a slightly higher chance of re-occurring compared to say, 100 years ago. But I think pretty much everyone here recognizes that anthropogenic activities have been part of the reason why we've had so much extreme weather these past 10 years or so. And hopefully, Sandy will be a wake-up call to the American public.

[Amonester]

65. I find myself sorry to think this wake-up call will not wake-up the clueless as....

usual, and that it's too late to change Climate Change by now: the previous wake-up calls did not wake them up either...

Glad I chose not to have kids.

[AverageJoe90]

67. It's not too late.

This is indeed a daunting problem we face, but contrary to what some may believe, it's not too late, and in fact, never will be.
However, one thing I believe we can all acknowledge is the fact that, the longer we wait, the worse things do get.

There are, however, solutions. The guys over at Skeptical Science did an excellent article a while back concerning this:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/solving-global-warming-not-easy-but-not-too-hard.html

So, the question we should all ask isn't, "Can it be done?", but rather, "When WILL it be done?"

[Amonester]

90. I say it's too late because, given the "current" state of affair (the damn money)...

I don't see the day the "When WILL it be done?" question will be answered with an answer other than "Never."

What else could work? Occupy the Earth? Arrest all* one-percenters and take their ill-gotten, nevah-enuf wealth to _____ ?



Edited to clarify: * not all one-percenters, just those who "stand in the way" (Rs).

[AverageJoe90]

97. The only sure way that nothing will happen is if we throw in the towel.

But I don't see too many doing that, outside the 'doomers'. If I may refer to this year elections, btw, look at how many of our fellows have turned out in support of the President doing GOTV operations. The same thing is bound to happen with AGW awareness as well, but I do hope it's sooner rather than later.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

62. This image said it all.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Uncle Joe]

63. I'm convinced it is and this isn't new, from the director of the classic "It's a Wonderful Life"

Last edited Tue Oct 30, 2012, 04:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Hellfire, they knew human induced global warming was for real going back to the 1950s!

Thanks for the thread, garybeck.

[reusrename]

80. That's a great video!

Bookmarked!

[Uncle Joe]

113. Kind of shocking isn't it? Eisenhower was President

when they made this video.

[onecent]

66. I don't THINK it, I KNOW IT!! n/t

[felix_numinous]

71. I had heard that other planets

in our solar system are warming too and looked it up, according to this site this is a myth:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-solar-system.htm

I was convinced by Inconvenient Truth, because I believe that core samples have proven it--humankind has cut down too many forests, and released too much CO2 and fluorocarbons into the atmosphere, and have been causing changes in local climates for a long time. Now climate change has gone global.

Thom Hartmann's book Last Rays of Ancient Sunlight was also very enlightening, deeply depressing but the last chapter gives some hope.

We have got to change course toward sustainability--but first we have to prevent Romney from getting into that White House--these Republicans are are bad news!!

[RedCloud]

72. That and the scifi channel giving the storm ideas...

OK, I was kidding about that last part, but it does seem like one of their Saturday night pseudo-thrillers.

[Politicub]

73. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar - unsure about this storm, but climate change is a problem.

[AverageJoe90]

99. Pretty much where I stand.

It's a pretty damn serious problem, but I have to admit that people calling this the 'new normal' is definitely a bit premature, to be perfectly & truthfully honest, with you.

[99th_Monkey]

74. That's like saying "rec this thread if you are NOT A MORAN". nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

75. .

too many people

[ChillZilla]

76. Until someone can tell me what human-caused conditions melted the North American Ice sheet

and dried up the Western Cretaceous Seaway ... I'm going to have to say I can't rec this thread.

Also, since these storms are always compared to something that happened in the thirties, it's nothing the world hasn't seen before.

Unfortunately though, I'm a geologist and have a little historical perspective so that makes it a little tougher to base my opinions on recent events.

[meeshrox]

83. As a geologist

you of all people should know it's the rate of change that makes climate change alarming. Try this site on for size, there's lots of great information! http://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

As a fellow geologist, welcome to DU!

[man4allcats]

84. K&R! I believe that it is human caused,

mostly Republican humans, assuming that's not an oxymoron. They're such idiots!

[LW1977]

85. Unbelievable

What the hell will it take for these climate change-denying morons to get it through their thick yet empty skull?

[sarcasmo]

88. Kick!

[The Wizard]

92. Anyone who thinks the ocean isn't rising

must be on GOP dope or snorting toxic tea bags.

[RoccoR5955]

93. K&R You know it is! n/t

[radiclib]

95. Ja think?

[Zax2me]

96. Climate change is a religion.

Followed by people who worship 'Mother Earth'.
Just like any religion it has its positives and negatives.
I'm not a follower of this particular group/church/religion but I support 100% others the right to practice it.
And support for them the same tax breaks other religions receive.

[AverageJoe90]

98. What? I'm sorry, but What?

There are a few people who truly are far-out there, yes. There are people who really do sincerely believe that humanity is about to go extinct or that it's actually possible for Earth to undergo 'Venus Syndrome', amongst other things, and that our doom is inevitable.

But I think you'll find that the good majority of us are level-headed, rational people who understand that there is indeed a major problem out there but we're not spreading around, or buying into, for that matter, Chicken Little type stuff like the things I've mentioned above.

I think you may wish to reconsider your opinion about this issue. I can send you some good information if you're willing to listen.

[BobbyBoring]

100. K and fuckin R!

The most amazing thing about this whole debate is "What if you're on the wrong side of it?" One can reap all the profits in the world but if you render that world unhabitable, what did you achieve?

[harmonicon]

102. So we can know who the painfully uninformed people are? (nt)

[Auntie Bush]

103. Now all we have to do is turn Rethugs & energy folks into believers and we can get down to business.

[BelgianMadCow]

105. Since when does DU show who recommended a thread?

I can see the benefits but I don't like it.

Anyway, as to climate change: not only is it real (of course), I think it went into the "nonlinear" part of the process, where positive feedback loops start occuring. Like now Sandy, the reason she turned west is because of the low pressure over the mainland, but ALSO because an "anomalous troposheric ridge", in other words an unusal high pressure zone over the arctic kept Sandy from proceeding north. It was also an abnormally strong arctic high-pressure zone that brought the EU a lifethreatening winter period last year, with people starving outside and gas getting scarce. And that pressure zone is stronger because the arctic heats up, due to polar ice loss.

We have no idea what we are heading into - that's what non-linearity means.

[Aldo Leopold]

106. I am a climate change scientist and I approve this message.

[garybeck]

119. like. :)

[Phlem]

108. My Mormon father in law's go to about climate change and carbon

What about all them volcanoes!??

my reply.



fuckin A


.lb

[meeshrox]

128. That must be the latest thing

that deniers resurrected lately. My mother asked me about that the other day because she and her friends were "discussing it around the kitchen table." Luckily, I'm a volcanologist and she could take my explanation back to them with confidence that they were flatout wrong. I asked her to call me next time that happens so I can take more questions.

Yes, it's infuriating!

[rosesaylavee]

110. Kick and a 'doh'

for the naysayers.

[blackspade]

111. K&R.

Only a fool would deny it.

[abelenkpe]

112. K&R nt

[BREMPRO]

114. accumulated evidence, not just this unprecedented storm...

hurricanes, tornados, ice and glacier melt, sea level rise, record global temps, warmer oceans.... but we have to put on blinders on now about all the evidence of global warming because we need oil so we can have jobs etc....

[Texas-Limerick]

117. Hurricane

Disasters come more often it seems
And so Pat Robertson and I prayed
Everybody knows exactly what it means
It had to be that gay parade - that party on Fire Island, -that nightclub down in Queens

It was worse than a disaster scene
You see on the movie screen
I said, pardon me, what do you mean, by "anthropogenic global warming?"
She said, that is why the hurricane came aground
That is why the hurricane came aground

She told me the hurricane's name was Sandy
And it was the corporate 
modus operandi 
They pump carbon dioxide in the air
Then these come aground
They pump - in the air - these come aground

Now I've always trusted corporations are careful what they do
They don't pump poisons in the air 
I don't think the problem could be co2
Or that the corporations just don't care

Hurricanes are not global warming
She's just a girl who claims 
They caused this one
But Sandy is not Koch's son
She says they are the one 
But the hurricane is not their son

Hurricanes are not global warming
She's just a girl who claims
They caused this one
But Sandy is not Koch's son
She says they are the one
But the hurricane is not their son

For Bush's two terms,
the law was on our side
But who can stand with Obama in charge and his business death march
And because - this hurricane- came aground

I went back to my corporate job
But what she said laid heavy on my heart
When I looked at the smoke stacks
My head began to throb, I thought about those slobs, and longed to join their mob!

Now I feel revulsed  and conflicted
To this life of excess I've become addicted
I sold my soul as if  money was eternal youth
Now that lie is an inconvenient truth

All Man's wealth comes from cheap fossil  fuel
I jumped at that because I'm nobody's fool
Now that cost has come home to roost,  as deadly as a viper 
And we've got to pay the piper

So take my strong advice
Just remember to always think twice
Do think twice, do think twice

She told my baby, we were swimming til three
Then she looked at me, then showed me a photo
My baby cried, her family had died, oh no
All because - this hurricane - came aground

Hurricanes are not global warming
She just a girl who claims 
They caused this one
But Sandy is not Koch's son

Hurricanes are not global warming
She's just a girl who claims
They caused this one

She says they caused this one
But the hurricane is not Koch's son

She says they caused this one
But the hurricane is not Koch's son

Hurricanes are not global warming
She's just a girl who claims
They caused this one
But Sandy is not Koch's son

She says they caused this one
But Sandy is not Koch's son

She says they caused this one
She says they caused this one
She says they caused this one

Hurricanes are not global warming
Hurricanes are not global warming
Hurricanes are not global warming

...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

118. Carl Sagan was talking about this in 1989.

http://blather.net/globaleyes/archives/2007/04/carl_sagan_on_global_warming_a.html

First video: Part 1 of 5:

He said that more energy in the atmosphere would mean more extreme weather, more cold weather, as well as more hot weather. Increased unpredictability.

He also pointed out that global warming increases EXPONENTIALLY, not linearly.

Basically, the X axis goes straight up. This is close:

[Duppers]

120. I remember the times on DU

when I was chewed out for saying this.

Bravo, garybeck.

[tavalon]

121. Welcome to the new normal

In a way, it seems fairer that it happen now instead of to our grandkids. We built this, now we reap the wind.

[AverageJoe90]

123. I have to agree, but......

To be fair, we can't say for sure whether or not this is a new normal yet. It very well could be, but it'll probably be a while, maybe a decade or more, before we're sure of that. Just sayin'. .

[AsahinaKimi]

122. That photo above reminds me of

The Tsunami in Japan after the Earthquake.. horrible nightmare. K&R

[myshofer]

124. o my GOD

what a nice information this thread contains. i really like it.

[Gabby Hayes]

125. Google "Hurricane Catarina," "Super Cyclone Gonu," "Tropical Storm Delta".......

The list of unprecedented tropical cyclones in the past decade is getting long and strange.

Like Hurricane Ike, Sandy again proved that rising sea levels due to Global Warming and resulting Climate Change are quickly changing the world's maps. Both were only Category Two storms.

Meanwhile, the robo-deniers may be out and about, but their sponsors are also quietly building a legal defense against looming charges related to Crimes Against Mankind. Their day in court may come too late, but it is coming.

[BlueToTheBone]

127. And maybe it's time to not live on the coast line.

Especially since it's eroding and now is probably swept far out to sea.

[get the red out]

129. Definitely a contributing factor

[Liberalynn]

130. Me

K&R

As Stephanie Miller said earlier in her show today, "They claim nobody wants to talk about Climate change, well obviously mother nature wants to talk about it."

[GoneOffShore]

131. K&R !