A heavily armed man wearing body armor who had killed 7 people, including a retired police officer

[wryter2000]

Was talked out of suicide and was arrested alive. But people who've been stopped for traffic violations have to be killed because the officer "feared for his/her life."

Different officers. But really.

[pbmus]

1. Reference...???

[wryter2000]

3. What happened just now in Buffalok

And multiple killings of black drivers who've been stopped for minor traffic violations. Or the man who was walking drunk around the fast food place, and when he ran was shot in the back. Or the man who was pulled over and when he ran was shot in the back. His name was Walter Scott. Of Tamir Rice, a little kid with a toy gun. Or the more than one incident when a cop came into the person's apartment and shot him/her.

[USALiberal]

39. Google it!

[anarch]

2. yes, but this is a white dude, so....

[johnp3907]

4. How did I know that?

🤔

Oh yeah. He still has a pulse.

[Delphinus]

13. Absolutely.

[wryter2000]

5. Yup

And it sounds as if most of the victims today were black.

[LymphocyteLover]

14. It was a racist hate crime

[PTWB]

6. And people who've been stopped for traffic violations...

have pulled firearms and murdered the traffic officer countless times. You're comparing apples to oranges. The crime or violation someone was initially contacted about doesn't dictate their future behavior.

[CrackityJones75]

29. Countless?

I am going to guess it isn’t countless how many times a police officer has been killed at a traffic stop. I’d bet I could count that high.

[PTWB]

30. If we are being pedantic, one could easily count any police-killing related statistic ...

Be it killings of police officers, by police officers, justified killings, and unjustified killings.

The point is that the suspicion, infraction, violation, or crime that initially prompted the contact by police is not the determining factor in the vast majority of uses of force. It seems silly every time I see someone post about police pulling over a motorist for a traffic violation and then shooting them, yet the poster leaves out the information about what prompted the shooting in the first place.

There are any number of bad shootings to attack. It’s silly to frame the issue the way the OP did.

[CrackityJones75]

31. Strange because in almost every shooting,

Strange because in almost every shooting, that I read about it is the police that tend to escalate the situation. But then again I don’t understand why every cop regardless of their role needs to carry a gun. That itself seems asinine to me.

[PTWB]

32. You must not read about many police shootings then.

We are a heavily armed society. Which police officers, in your opinion, ought to be unarmed?

[wryter2000]

35. How about the killings when the person was running away from the police?

People who were shot in the back, like Walter Scott. I don't mean to suggest that all police officers shoot indiscriminately at black people. They certainly don't. Most don't. But it happens too often to black people, I would guess much more than it happens to white people.

[PTWB]

38. Exactly.

Murders committed by police officers (like in the case of Walter Scott) are horrific enough on their own. When people exaggerate, hyperbolize, or outright lie about police killings that ARE justified, they’re only diminishing the righteous indignation about the aforementioned murders by police.

Muddying the waters by lumping necessary and appropriate use of force with cold-blooded murder does nothing to help the victims of police violence, past, present, or future. Just the opposite in fact.

[CrackityJones75]

46. Almost all of them.

I don’t think cops that are doing traffic stops need to be armed. I don’t think meter attendants need to be armed.

General issue police is a BAD idea and it needs to be rethought. Officers trained with weapons who are trained for the encounters that require them should be available. But when you know that every single police officer may draw down on you that escelates the situation. The idea that they are armed is a deterrent is about the same as saying that conceal and carry dramatically stops crime. It doesn’t.

[PTWB]

57. Lord have mercy LOL

Good luck with disarming police. I’m a proponent of defunding police and redirecting unnecessary police resources to programs that better target the root causes of crime—such as poverty and addiction—but I wouldn’t even advocate for disarming the police. That’s ridiculous and counter productive.

[CrackityJones75]

64. You are actually agreeing with me more than you realize.

You just don’t realize it. Not every situation needs a cop and not every situation needs an armed cop.

[CrackityJones75]

70. I don't believe I said that I thought that police should be disarmed.

[PTWB]

71. Sure you did.

And when I asked you to clarify, you said that “almost all of them” should be, including those who make traffic stops. You claim to keep up with police shootings, and if you have any knowledge at all about how police departments in the United States operate, you’ll know that the same police officers who respond to calls for service are out making traffic stops and contacts with the public in between those calls for service.

By suggesting that we disarm “almost all” officers, including those who make traffic stops, you’re advocating for disarming the police.

If you’d like to revise your argument or you don’t understand basic police operations, leading you to make a mistake about which police you would like to see disarmed, feel free to revise your post(s).

[CrackityJones75]

72. I mean in your first sentance you showed i didn't say that.

I said almost all of them. That by definition is not all of them. I do believe there should be defined roles for police and specialized police using guns for situations that call for it. And the you wanted to dismiss and belittle me for it. You made it personal towards me.

I personally do not believe that more guns (whether in the hands of police or citizens) is the answer. If that makes you want to hurl something personal at me or LOL at me or whatever…. fine. We are in disagreement. I can live with that.

[PTWB]

73. Personal?

I have no idea who you are. I disagree with what you’re saying, I don’t know or care about who is saying it.

Also, I never claimed you suggested disarming ALL the police. I said “good luck with disarming police.”

[Jedi Guy]

62. "I don't think cops that are doing traffic stops need to be armed."

My apologies, but this statement is absolutely asinine. I used to be a dispatcher for the Tucson Police Department more than 10 years ago now. The department published internal statistics which indicated that 70% of the cars stopped by officers contained a weapon (either on the occupant(s) of the vehicle or stashed somewhere inside). So suggesting that cops pulling traffic stops shouldn't be armed is just ludicrous.

Secondly, while some larger departments will have traffic enforcement units, that's comparatively rare. Most traffic stops are conducted by regular patrol officers who aren't assigned to an active call, and who therefore do need to be armed for when they are assigned to an active call, or by motorcycle cops who just pull traffic all day.

People act like traffic stops are normal, but they're often the most stressful situation for the officers themselves. They don't know who's in the car, whether or not they're armed, and whether or not they're dangerous. For all they know, the person in the car is armed with a hand cannon, has a pound of meth under the front seat, and has decided that come hell or high water, they're not going back to prison. Or the person in the car is a kindergarten teacher who wouldn't hurt a fly. But until they walk up, initiate contact, and assess the situation, they have no idea how that interaction is going to go.

As an illustration of why cops pulling traffic need to be armed, I had two officers pull a guy over for running a stop sign. The moment they got out of their car, the guy got out of his car, raised a gun, and started blasting. So given how prevalent guns are in the States, cops pulling traffic most certainly do need to be armed.

[CrackityJones75]

63. Ok sure.

Shootouts on the side of the road are fucking awesome! Yeah rah rah rah!

Yep Philando had a gun in his car. That cop was totally justified in killing him because of it. Hey everyone there are guns out there so every cop needs to be armed. In fact everybody should be armed!!!

[Jedi Guy]

65. Your post is essentially a single giant strawman argument, just FYI. N/T

[CrackityJones75]

66. Ok sure.

And you are the tin man. Rusted and stuck in one position unable to change your thoughts.

[Jedi Guy]

67. No, I'm L. Frank Baum, because I'm living in reality. You should join me sometime. N/T

[CrackityJones75]

68. Neat attack.

Straw what?

[Jedi Guy]

69. k

[Solomon]

40. What prompted most of the

shootings in the first place is black skin.

[PTWB]

42. You think?

Considering more white people are shot by police than black, I suspect you’ll have a hard time supporting that argument.

This is exactly the type of hyperbole that hurts victims of police violence and diminishes efforts to eliminate that violence.

[intheflow]

45. Please understand that more white people are shot than Black

because there are more white people. Police shooting Black people is about how disproportionately they do it, twice as often as they shoot whites. Please educate yourself and put away this RW talking point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

Black Lives Matter! ✊🏾

[CrackityJones75]

47. I am getting REAL tired if the RW talking points here

It is getting very annoying.

[PTWB]

58. You're preaching to the choir.

Police do disproportionately use force against persons of color. But that has nothing to do with what I said. Read the persons post I was replying to.

[gldstwmn]

55. Maybe we should stop pulling people over for air fresheners hanging from their mirror

or other nonsense. If they're speeding or weaving then fine pull them over. Otherwise I have to believe that the police have better things to do with their time.

[uponit7771]

59. yep

[uponit7771]

60. Please stop, fishing is more dangerous than policing good people like Americans. If the FOP was ...

... so concerned with dangerous policing they would've supporting minimum NPI during covid peaks which killed more police officers nationwide than all killings in 4 years combined.

[PittBlue]

8. Bullshit.

[malaise]

9. He killed 10 people

a hate crime, live streamed

[wryter2000]

34. Thanks

They were saying 7 when I posted this.

[DET]

10. Confronted by hate, a moment of heroism

The retired cop who was killed was a security guard at the store. Apparently, he confronted the shooter and shot back. That guy’s a hero; he must have known he’d be killed. Don’t know if he was white or black.

[wnylib]

18. The killer's vest deflected the bullet that the

security guard fired. Then the killer shot the guard.

In the future, security guards or police confronting killers will need to aim at legs, neck, or face.

[BradAllison]

26. A trained shooter aims for the biggest mass, the torso

Because otherwise you likely miss and hit nothing. And the shooter likely does strike at least a limb in the process.

[wnylib]

27. Shooting at the biggest mass makes sense

unless the biggest mass is protected by a vest, giving the killer a chance to fire at security. In a situation like that, the guard's only chance of survival is to hit an unprotected area and move quickly out of range to fire again at the shooter.

Shooting at the biggest mass, when it is protected, is futile.

[Aristus]

48. I'm sorry; I agree with BradAllison.

Anyone who has undergone reputable marksmanship training (I got mine with the M-16 in the Army) has been trained to target center-mass. The old Hollywood thing about "Just shoot him in the leg", or "Why didn't they shoot the gun out of his hand?" is just nonsense. Even TFG was blithering to the DC police about protestors: "Just shoot them in the legs!", as if that was an actual thing.

You always aim for the largest part of the target: center mass. What you end up hitting is ultimately less important than hitting it at all.

You miss your target, and nothing else really matters much.

[wnylib]

52. So how did that training help the dead security guard?

He shot at the greatest mass and hit it. The shot hit a protective vest, which gave the killer an opportunity to shoot back, which he did, killing the guard.

[Aristus]

53. Very little more than if he had aimed for the unprotected head and missed it.

Nobody was ever killed by a shot that missed them.

[gldstwmn]

56. He was wearing a helmet, per an eyewitness.

[wnylib]

54. So if he shoots for the legs or face and misses

the killer fires back and kills him.

If he shoots at the chest and the bullet is deflected by the best, the killer shoots back and kills him.

Which option has the best odds for the guard? Hitting a vest is assured failure. Hitting the legs or face gives at least the possibility of wounding the killer and throwing off his aim.

[Iggo]

11. Yeah, well, there's no accounting for scared cops.

[Comfortably_Numb]

12. And that strange maniacal sound is tuckems ticking his tanned balls in delight....

[TimeToGo]

15. People are arrested all the time without being killed

Prisons are full of people who commit violent crimes.

The problem we have is that the police too often go into combat mode with people of color even when no one has done anything to warrant that. They do it with white people too, just not in as high of a percentage.

That’s what needs to be worked on.

[ShazzieB]

23. Too many cops see a poc and automatically go into "very dangerous offender" mode.

Consciously or unconconsciously, a lot of cops seem to automatically react to any poc (especially a male or male-presenting person) as if they are absolutely, for sure a violent and dangerous person who is up to no good and must be dealt with accordingly. This seems to happen regardless of the actual facts of the situation. It's disturbing, maddening, and absurd.

See a poc running? He's obviously just committed a crime and must not be allowed to escape.

Poc has something in his hand? It is OF COURSE a weapon, and he will shoot you if you don't shoot him first.

Poc reaches toward his pocket, glove compartment, etc.? He is OF COURSE reaching for a weapon, and he will shoot you if you don't shoot him first.

This mindset desperately needs to be addressed in training. As long as it isn't, this crap will keep happening and poc will continue to die for no reason other than being poc.

[TimeToGo]

25. No argument there

[CrackityJones75]

49. I will relay this story.

I took a job driving school bus as I wasn’t working and they were desperate for drivers. Anyway there was an older driver in his 70’s or so that had had a bad day with the students apparently.

So he starts talking to me that day saying he was done and quitting. I asked him “why?”. He replied “It’s those black kids”. I replied “well I am not sure what them being black has to do with it”. And he says “You know how those people are. They are 500 pound animals back there jumping around”.


I lost it on him and told him to save his racist bigoted bullshit.

See this guy is so afraid of black people that in his mind he inflates their size and likens them to wild animals. I think a lot of police do the same thing. They are so afraid of the scary black man that they feel like the only thing they can do is gun them down. Even if they are running away. It is fucking sad that decades upon decades has people believing that black people are monsters.

[jmowreader]

16. Not seven. Eleven.

[wnylib]

21. 13 shot. 10 dead. 2 of the 13 in critical condition.

11 of the ones shot are Black, 2 are White.

The killer is a white supremacist

[TeamProg]

17. +1 !!!

[oldsoftie]

19. Should've let him kill himself. The State sure won't do it.

[wnylib]

22. Better to have him alive for any info he

can give about what groups he could be connected to and what influenced him to kill.

Then go after the influencers, too.

[LeftInTX]

33. Yes. He's gonna spend his sorry a__life behind bars

He wanted to die anyway. Let him suffer.

[oldsoftie]

36. I doubt there's anything much to get or go after. He's one of those idiots.

I'll watch but don't expect much. His social media would provide almost anything they'd need.
And now he'll get 3 high priced lawyers and spend 5 million "defending" himself. Unless he's the rare one who pleads guilty.
Although, killing him or letting him do it would instantly become "the govt is hiding"
This will still be called a setup or false flag regardless. Even though his thought were likely public

[wnylib]

37. High prices lawyers? Is he wealthy?

[oldsoftie]

43. You don't have to be wealthy to spend a ton of public tax money.

Lawyers come out of the woodwork when its a high profile case. They know they'll get lots of publicity & they'll spend tax money to get it.
For example, Brian Nichols. The Atlanta Fed. Courthouse murderer. There was zero chance that he wasn't the guy, just like this case. He was already in custody when he murdered those people. Did HE have money? No. But his defense spent well over a million dollars "defending" him. I don't even know what the final numbers were.
Plenty of other examples like that. Ridiculous waste of taxpayer money when there is ZERO doubt of guilt. Same with this guy in Buffalo; there's absolutely no way he's not guilty. But just watch. Maybe I'll be wrong; it happens now & then. But on this one I wouldn't bet on it.

[David__77]

44. It's all there in the open online.

…

[wnylib]

50. Yes, it is now. I did not have

that information at the time that I posted.

[David__77]

51. I have long found it odd.

It doesn’t even seem like the agencies of the state do much on this front. It seems like an open field for this stuff- very open, explicit and detailed advocacy for mass killings.

[Solomon]

41. Ha! You cut that one to the bone!

[orleans]

20. "Twitch deletes shooter's live-stream video of Buffalo mass shooting"

https://www.wivb.com/news/buffalo-supermarket-mass-shooting-tops/twitch-deletes-shooters-live-stream-video-of-buffalo-mass-shooting/

BUFFALO, N.Y. (WIVB) — The gunman who killed 10 people Saturday in a mass shooting at the Jefferson Avenue Tops Markets location was live-streaming on the internet, authorities said in a press conference.

Live-streaming service Twitch has confirmed the shooter, identified in court as Payton Gendron, used the service to broadcast the incident.

~~snip~~~

A Twitch spokesperson said teams are “vigorously monitoring” to ensure the live broadcast or related content is not being re-streamed and that the service is cooperating with law enforcement.

The spokesperson also said Twitch is not aware of any VODs, or videos on demand, allowing users to access the broadcast and said the stream was removed less than two minutes after the violence started.

[barbtries]

24. i'll take a huge leap

and guess that the guy is white?

[uponit7771]

61. +1,

[moondust]

28. An assault rifle, a hunting rifle, and a shotgun

were found at the scene, according to media reports.