Charlie Pierce nails my pessimism

[kpete]

?1656765763
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/7/2/2107736/-Abbreviated-pundit-roundup-Eyes-on-the-prize#comment_83944647

[Wounded Bear]

1. Getting harder and harder to fight off the cynicism...nt

[Magoo48]

26. Agreed.

I’ve always been a bit of an apocaloptimist: an apocaloptimist is someone who knows everything will undoubtedly turn to shit, but, in the the long, long run, all will be well.

Now, I feel the long, long run will be well after we hit the dystopian wall.

[Walleye]

2. We went through the whole 20th century without electing a president that lost the popular vote. What

[iemanja]

3. I feel despondent

I know people here get angry at people who aren't optimistic, but it's hard for me to see a way out of this. It's like the economy is conspiring against democracy.

[FoxNewsSucks]

6. I think that's part of the problem

Even on here, we apparently are supposed to pretend everything is OK, that all Democrats are peachy-keen, especially the right-leaning or corporate-bought ones, and that we must be totally optimistic and not criticize because they have everything under control we just don't know about it etc etc etc.

I can't look at the increasing climate change, skyrocketing overpopulation, policies that favor the rich, the corporations, and encourage increased population; the relentless effort by the fascists to take control by any means, and the Emily Post-polite response from our side; I just can't pay attention and think that there is a way to reverse things. We had a chance, and our elected officials sat on their hands.

Facts, unfortunately, are bleak things these days.

[enough]

21. +1

[Nixie]

55. Your "facts" look like left-over sour grapes. "Progressives"

would never let the actual RW take over the Supreme Court just so you can preach to other Democrats and call them names. Actual voters rejected the self-sabotaging revolution.

[FoxNewsSucks]

59. My facts are clear. I can't help a lack of comprehension, willful or otherwise, among readers.

[Nixie]

61. Your "facts" are just insults, which aren't "facts."

[FoxNewsSucks]

65. What specifically is untrue? Sorry you don't like it, but that is irrelevant.

[Nixie]

67. Your insults, as already pointed out. They are not "facts".

What’s a “fact” is that the RW took over the Supreme Court and it didn’t have to happen.

[FoxNewsSucks]

69. You're gonna have to find someone else to pick a fight with.

I'm not biting.

These " increasing climate change, skyrocketing overpopulation, policies that favor the rich, the corporations," along with the rest of my post, are FACTS.

Whatever is ruining your day, I hope it gets better.

[Nixie]

70. Maybe I've been a Democrat longer, because nothing you typed

has not been a long-standing Democratic value. Clinton/Gore were true progressives* on climate change when it was a risk politically. They didn’t wait until it was a popular issue to claim credit and badger other Democrats. But I see you dropped the insults about other Dems, so thanks for your efforts. 👍

*see facts about Clinton’s tax policies that resulted in a balanced budget. Over 25 years ago.

[treestar]

34. It does appear that there is a lot that can be done

Giving up completely at this point, even with pessimism, does not seem to be called for.

We can try to keep Congress Democratic, try to re-elect/elect a Democratic President, try for more Democratic Senators. The tweet makes a great case against the filibuster. We can at least start trying to abolish the EC.

[dalton99a]

4. Kick

[peggysue2]

5. Well, cynicism and pessimism gets us nowhere

In fact, it's what these sedition weasels are counting on--a woe is me, nothing can be done, passive reaction to every insult on the body politic.

We fight and pushback now so that we can fight and pushback tomorrow and all the days after that. Until the dam breaks and all these f*ckers are washed into the deep blue sea.

No capitulation! No concessions! We take a page out of the Ukrainian handbook.

[fightforfreedom]

7. I agree 100%

[FoxNewsSucks]

8. That's true,

but unless ALL elected democrats think and do the same, it ain't gonna happen.

Just because someone gives warning, or points out an inaction doesn't mean that is an encouragement for others to give up. Quite the opposite, usually.

What's disheartening is the way that even here, our fighters like AOC, the rest of "the squad", and other liberals are constantly posted about negatively. Often by the same people who tell us we have to love the likes of Joe Manchin (who in my opinion is the perfect example of the problem).

[Novara]

11. Who the hell ever said this?

"Often by the same people who tell us we have to love the likes of Joe Manchin"

Who, exactly?

As far as I can see, everybody here hates him and what he's done to completely derail Biden's agenda, completely stall anything meaningful getting done in Congress.

WHO THE HELL SAID WE HAVE TO LIKE HIM? Tell me, because I'm gonna throat-punch that person.

Look, there are a lot of reasons behind this, but we have a system where the minority can rule and THAT is preventing progress. We are going backwards because the fucking throwbacks want to go backwards. And our system allows it. There are a shit ton of things that need to change in order for this to stop: abolish the electoral college, make Senate representation reflect population, abolish the filibuster (or at LEAST make it a talking filibuster), strike down Citizens United, make campaigns publicly funded (and not last for two years prior to elections), abolish all touch screen voting machines.

I could go on. There is SO MUCH WRONG with our systems. They've metastasized. I can't go back in time but I'll bet this is not what the founders had in mind. Our system of government has been hijacked and controlled by moneyed interests, not We The People. Until that changes, pessimism is fully warranted.

[iemanja]

12. There are a couple

but not many.

[FoxNewsSucks]

13. Those posters can't be named

as that would violate the "don't call out" rule.

Just look & search through posts, mainly from last year, about Maserati Manchin. I was literally told to get on my knees and be thankful for him and that we would "learn to love" him more than once.

Pretty much every time anyone would post about Manchin working to oppose Biden and the Democratic agenda, we'd get told to love him because w/o him Dems would not have senate control. It's true that he does provide that numeric value, but that's the only thing he's good for.

Now that so much has been derailed, those posters have been silent on the topic. Not one has had the decency to apologize or even acknowledge that we were right about how the BBB, voting rights etc would turn out.

[BlackSkimmer]

15. There's a "don't call out" rule?

There used to be, but I don't think so.

[FoxNewsSucks]

16. I've seen posts hidden

even if it's not called that in those words, it comes under no personal attack, divisive, group attack or something. I'm not saying I agree with that definition, but I've seen it happen.

[former9thward]

84. This is the rule:

No personal attacks or flaming
Do not personally attack, insult, flame, threaten, bully, harass, stalk, negatively call-out, ascribe ugly ulterior motives to, or make baseless claims about any member of this community.

[Fiendish Thingy]

22. You are incorrect- Manchin has quite the fan club here at DU

And they are quite vigilant and alert…

And that’s all they will permit me to say…

[Orrex]

23. I won't name them, but they have scolded me a number of times

Their whole MO is to pounce on anyone who express doubt or frustration or impatience, and these cheerleaders belittle and ridicule that person rather than considering that maybe just maybe something is wrong with The System that the cheerleaders revere above all else.

It’s happened to me here on DU many times. It’s happened several times this week, in fact.

Whatever else might be going on, the most important thing is that no one can articulate legitimate human anxiety in the face of the ongoing deliberate catastrophe being inflicted upon our nation.

[Silent3]

63. +1000! n/t

[KPN]

29. Keep in mind that system where the minority can rule and prevent progress actually occurs within

our own party. The hi-jacking by moneyed interests has also happened within our own party and defended as "reality". Where we are today is the result of decades worth of past actions and inactions ... many by Rs, but some with assistance of Ds. Granted, the two parties are not comparable and we are the better by light-years.

When we acknowledge and act on that, then we'll be able to fix things and actually have a government that lives up to the preamble to the Declaration of Independence. Until then, the moneyed interests (many of them racist, fascist, supremacist and/or fanatical christians) will have the upper hand ... and the Preamble will continue to be a pretty facade.

[Nixie]

56. You're right. No one has ever said Joe Manchin must be loved.

The reality of red state voters is ignored in favor of two failed campaigns against Democrats, which is just sour grapes. Rejecting reality and the consequences of that is what we see with posts like that you responded to.

[Demsrule86]

19. Well why wave the white flag just yet? Mosts of the negative posts about the squad

have to do with them going after other Democrats including Biden. AOC is very talented but I don't approve of going after Democrats; also...we have a handful of squad members... who are in deep blue districts and will not sway the election one way or the other. unless the attacks on Democratic leadership and elected hurt us...

[Novara]

41. I agree

They don't do the party any favors by attacking other Dems publicly. Those Dems don't change their minds about the things they're being attacked about so what is the purpose other than to feed into the "Dems in disarray" trope?

I had no idea people here are defending Manchin. I can understand being grateful he calls himself a Democrat because that means we have the majority, but defending his politics? Really?

[Demsrule86]

48. I do understand that...we had a great majority with a big tent...yeah there Democrats like

Manchin in those years...and they have to vote a certain way to remain in office. Some on DU celebrated their loss in 2010. I did not as I knew losing those states would be a disaster in the end. Now if Manchin goes, we won't have a Democratic Senator in WV in my lifetime...and he is better than any Republican...I remind people without Manchin...the ACA would be gone... it has saved so many lives.

Manchin is the best we can do and attacking him is foolish. What does the squad know about winning competitive seats in purple or red states? Sinema on the other hand should be primaried. As far as I am concerned she is still a fucking Green and we can probably do better than her in Arizona. There is no reason for her votes other than sticking it to Democrats. That is what Greens do. But right now we need them all.

[Novara]

54. I'd rather focus on flipping a couple of R Senate seats and making them irrelevant

So I'll concentrate my efforts on getting more Dem senators elected. There are some competitive races and if the RWNJ keep destroying this country, it's definitely do-able. Then let's see Manchin and Sinema helplessly whining when we kill the filibuster, pass voting laws, protect women's rights, and pass real gun safety laws.

To me, that's preferable than primarying either one of them because that's more risky.

[Demsrule86]

82. I think we will get PA and I am starting to hope we keep Geogia...and maybe (be still my heart)

the Governorship of Georgia (Go Stacey). I think Ohio is a possibility, also Carolina and Wisconsin. You are probably right about primarying Sinema as incumbent Senators rarely lose. Now there never was a point in primarying Manchin as no other Democrat will win that seat.

[Lotusflower70]

20. True that

There is a divide in the party. The far left is not helping. AOC and the squad are performance theater, they aren't doing anything. That is part of the problem. She doesn't even have an office in her district. I am sick and tired of the do nothings taking up seats in Congress

[Make7]

27. 74-09 37th Avenue, Suite 305, Jackson Heights, NY 11372

https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/contact/offices

[scipan]

39. ....

[FoxNewsSucks]

42. Interesting that this post is still here

If "Pelosi" and "moderates" were substituted for "AOC" and "far left", I'll bet it would have been promptly removed for bashing Democrats, and peddling rightwing lies/smears.

AOC is hardly a "do nothing", and she has two offices in NYC. Possibly you were unaware of those facts. If so, you should edit or self-delete.

[Demsrule86]

49. Telll me her legislative accomplishments?

[FoxNewsSucks]

58. Would that post still be here

if it were about other Democrats? That's the question.

[Nixie]

64. What has AOC said about other Democrats?

That’s the answer to your question about “other Democrats”.

[FoxNewsSucks]

66. We're discussing a post, not anything AOC said.

That post insulted a democrat, and contained a bald-faced lie.

Unless AOC is on here posting, she's not subject to the rules is she?

[Nixie]

68. Your subtext was that she is unfairly singled out; isn't that right?

Some could say that’s a lie in itself since it ignores the history of her own words about fellow Democrats. So that’s your answer. Ignoring that is where your frustration might be. “That post insulted a Democrat” —- kinda ironic there.

[Demsrule86]

81. Yes. I have seen horrible posts about Manchin and Sinema.

And also...the Democratic Leadership. It is hit or miss.

[Demsrule86]

74. You complain about not be able to criticize Democrats...and yet think that AOC is somehow immune.

I don't think any Democrat should be criticized. We are all on the same side supposedly.

[Demsrule86]

72. AOC is very smart but she represents what is a minority in the Democratic Party and can hurt

us in areas we need to win in order to continue with the majority.

[gulliver]

9. +1

[YoshidaYui]

31. agree we fight like UKRAINIANS

They should be an inspiration. Remember NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW! IF THEY are above the law than democracy is truly dead.

[Demsrule86]

50. See that is the problem...that a meaningless statement and I mean no offence. We need a

useful plan of attack against the GOP...slogans are getting us nowhere.

[FoxNewsSucks]

60. I don't get it,

that is EXACTLY the point many of us are making, then we get attacked for "bashing" democrats when we are actually criticizing them.

Here's an example. The right has many many corporations, thinktanks, donors and organizations all of which are working to advance their goals. Not only that, they destroy what little we have. ACORN ring any bells?

Instead of decisive plans and actions, we get slogans and demands to mindlessly obey establishment centrist Democrats. When we point this out, we're scolded and attacked. So do the politicians who do speak up and call for action.

Sitting back and thinking everything will be OK is not the answer.

[Demsrule86]

71. OK...what the GOP has that we don't is unity. I would love to see a progressive/liberal

America. It has always been my dream. But we don't have the votes and every time the left- and they are not all Democrats or even support Democrats either- attack sitting Democrats or the party we lose elections. 2000 and 2016 are the most obvious examples but there are others. Those elections are why we have lost Roe and will lose other important court cases. This is a hole those supposedly on our side dug maliciously and gleefully.

I am fucking sick of hold the hold their feet to the fire Crowd...this has been done maliciously in election. What happens is we get burned and lose election after election. Time support Democrats and vote Democratic in every election. We are also going to have to rebuild the big tent if we want to stop the GOP. We need a 50 state strategy like Dean had.

[YoshidaYui]

85. No man is above the law

It’s not a slogan it’s a fact !!

[paleotn]

32. Absolutely!

However, I also have a plan B, C and D. Sorry, that's how I roll.

[treestar]

35. +1

[Silent3]

62. Constantly saying "cynicism and pessimism gets us nowhere"...

... doesn't accomplish shit either, other than annoying people who are already rightfully pissed and don't need help getting more pissed.

[Demsrule86]

73. And pissed at who? if you say Democrat than I say they are pissed at the wrong people...why oh

why can't some leave Democrats alone and unload on Republicans...help them lose.

[Silent3]

76. There's nothing in the OP that's blaming Democrats

And quite obviously the lion’s share of blame here belongs to Republicans, Trumpsters, and their allies.

But I am fucking sick to death of the Sunshine Police who think it’s their job to monitor negative thoughts, who think they are somehow helping the world by butting in and treating every expression of anxiety as a threat and a conspiracy if it isn’t accompanied by a balancing dose of sunshine to blow up your ass and a ten-point action plan.

No, this isn’t all part of a devious plan for making people give up and surrender, and unless you have solid scientific evidence that proves chiding the anxious for not joining the Positive Thinking bandwagon leads to political victories, just give it a fucking rest.

[Demsrule86]

80. Well I guess we can disagree about that. I get what you are saying but believe the constant

negativity is damaging to morale and dampens voting...but I wish you well...

[peggysue2]

75. My point is use your anger and righteous pissed off mindset . . .

To defy the odds and turn November into a win, something that will actually defeat the treacherous moment we find ourselves in.

Pessimism and cynicism has the opposite effect and ultimately makes people feel hopeless which is exactly what the opposition wants--an apathetic, despairing electorate that has turned the anger inward until voting or participating in civic pushback is deemed useless.

I want the forces of good, the forces of democracy and freedom to fight like hell until we can fight no more, until we push every one of these f*ckers in the deep blue sea.

Without lifejackets.

Pessimism and cynicism will not fuel the energy, the sort of fervor we're going to need to fight the zealots, the extremists on all sides. Every 'woe is me' article is a chink in our own armor, a moment to plant a seed of doubt about our ability to fight back what is clearly a rising fascist tide in the country.

We're at an existential tipping point. The time for despair and/or pointing fingers in all directions is long over.

We fight or we'll be rolled over.

If the latter is the outcome, we better start composing our excuses now, letters to our children and grand kids explaining why we failed to meet the moment to save the Republic and their futures.

[Silent3]

77. Please provide the scientific evidence that "Pessimism and cynicism has the opposite effect"

We all have a right to publicly express our well-founded anxieties and assessments of the odds against us, and doing so does not impose an obligation to play absurd positive thinking games - and they are games - as a counterbalance.

The real world does not work by the magic of “positive energy brings positive results”. Positive thinking, while sometimes helpful, has limited power, and can even have negative results. (See: bright-siding.)

[peggysue2]

78. I've never suggested people don't have the right to express their anxiety

Only that these ongoing expressions of pessimism and cynicism are counterproductive. I'm certainly not trying to push magical thinking buttons--the power of positive thinking--or present a view that's game playing.

Far from it.

We're fighting for our lives now, the lives of our kids and grand kids. And it's going to take every drop of energy we have to hold the line, let alone win. Righteous anger can be productive when focused on outcomes, as in winning unlikely elections.

You want to use pessimism to fuel that? That's up to you but spare me the exercise of putting words in my mouth.

As for scientific evidence? Do your own frigging research.

Our conversation is done.

[Silent3]

79. I never suggested that you suggested that people don't have that right

Bringing up that right to express anxiety and pessimism was rhetorical, as a lead-in for what followed, not an accusation that you had denied that right.

As for evidence, you don't seem to understand how burden of proof works. Many people (not just you) often say things like "Pessimism and cynicism has the opposite effect (of being helpful)", blithely stating such as if it were a law of nature.

If your argument depends on this assessment of the affects of pessimism and cynicism, it's your burden, not mine, to back it up.

[Sympthsical]

10. Reminds me of Toqueville

He had us pegged two hundred years ago.

[Ferrets are Cool]

14. K and R

[Cozmo]

17. As much as I love the Constitution, it's time for a major update

And I fear that no one is up for the challenge. We are screwed!

[Orrex]

24. A constitutional convention would be hijacked by the extremist right

Who in turn would be extremely well funded by corporations and foreign interests who would love nothing more than to guarantee their own permanent wealth by enshrining it in a Constituion 2.0.

[treestar]

36. We don't need a Convention

Abolish the EC, or at least get started. If we don't see it in our lifetime, so be it.

Increase the House membership so that it can be more Democratic (even the House is starting to favor the Rs - they can have the House when overall, the Democrats running got more votes).

The filibuster! Anti-Democratic. True Rs would get stuff through, but it would be easier to repeal.

[Orrex]

40. I'm down with all of that

Repugs have been stacking the deck for decades, overtaking state legislatures with the primary goal of gerrymandering the shit out of states while suppressing every Left vote they could.

[Stuart G]

25. I deeply believe someone is "Up for the challenge." The key is: "timing." He has been through a

whole lot. He is in the know. And if you don't think this is so?

...................... You don't know, His name is Joe!

[ZonkerHarris]

33. Adorable

[roamer65]

45. As long as there is a secession amendment included, I'm game.

Like Article 50 of the EU Lisbon Treaty.

A referendum for each state on adoption or independence.

But that won’t happen because the deadbeat states like AL, KY, etc, etc won’t want the blue state exploitation to end.

[Demsrule86]

51. Bullshit. The constitution will save us in the end and it can not be updated without out

amendments.

[Evolve Dammit]

18. yep. sounds right

[lefthandedskyhook]

28. Oh yes!

.

[Grasswire2]

30. and Laurence Tribe is promoting Thom Hartmann's latest column.

Tribe says this is a must read.

[link:http://

Link to tweet

?s=20&t=jHDN5thkgepkk-vTy-cU8w|

[paleotn]

37. I can't stay pessimistic. I get mad as hell and want to fight to the end....

But, if that good fight fails like in 1861, it may be time to simply let them go. That's not something I wish for. The worst case scenario in my mind, as it would cause the greatest social and political upheaval in American history. Global history for that matter since it would shatter the global economic order. Imagine a world where the US dollar is no longer the currency franca for the global economy. Where US debt is no longer the safest bet of any of the world's investment vehicles. It is, however, a scenario I take seriously and might be unavoidable in the medium term. Particularly now that we have states, both red and blue, giving SCOTUS and the feds in general the middle finger.

[hay rick]

38. Feeling sorry for myself is a great substitute for taking action.

What action will not be futile?

For a start, doing more than I have done in the past. If my activism has consisted of forum, Instagram, and Facebook posts and voting in every election, then I should not expect posting and voting in the 2022 election to change anything. I need to donate money or volunteer for the Democratic Party or a political campaign. I can join an angry mob of like-minded people- that's not a lot but it's a baby step in the right direction.

It's easy to criticize what we see as the collective failure of the Democratic Party, but that should never be an excuse to sit on the sidelines.

[edhopper]

43. I don't see as the Democrats failing

I see it as the Republicans doing things the Democrats can't stop.
If they can decide who is elected, or stop people from voting for Democrats, donations, and GOTV won't stop them.

Maybe if the majority of Americans wake the fuck up, and I mean like 75% of us, we may be doomed.

[hay rick]

44. I see it as both.

Republicans are doing bad things, things that will destroy our democracy. Democrats are doing too little to stop them.

My perspective is based on personal experience. I am a long time volunteer. I wear many hats in our local Democratic Party. Part of what I do is setting up volunteer activities such as phone banks, rallies, and canvassing. My concern is that we are seeing fewer volunteers than in previous years. If the threat to our democracy is as immediate and dire as everyone (myself included) thinks it is- we should be seeing MORE volunteers. When people complain they give permission to others to also be discouraged and do less than what is needed.

I have no sympathy. Sitting on the sidelines is complicit.

[PatrickforB]

46. We'll see. I'm not ready to call it quits just yet, though I have dark days.

This recent spate of radical-right Supreme Court rulings may galvanize people to vote in November.

I'm thinking turnout will be historically heavy for an off year, and that turnout will go very much against Republicans.

As Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over 'til it's over!"

Plus, that idiot Trump is supposedly going to announce a 2024 run for president.

Those two things will be like giant millstones hanging around the GOP's neck.

People just aren't willing to go backwards, and this Supreme Court Gilead thing is being perceived as a bunch of right wing christo-nuts trying to ram their narrow dogma down the rest of our throats.

I'm not seeing much apathy right now, and time will tell if people will stay angry and resolve to do something about this at the polls. I think they will.

So...chin up, everyone! The enemy has made some HUGE mistakes. Let's capitalize on those!

[Stuart G]

47. It hasn't failed. Democracy has hit a..."ROAD BLOCK" ...just go around it. That works.

Or just wait to go around it. It ain't new. We've been through this before.... When?

1. Civil War.
2. Assassination of Presidents
3. Various battles over people's rights, (women, Afro-Americans, Gays, etc.)
4. Other Wars..(you name them...)
5. Prohibition
6. Bad Presidents (or evil Presidents or stupid Presidents)
7. Slavery
8. Congressional Stupidity
9. Deaths of other Presidents.
10. Horrendous events like 9/11/01
11. Various climate problems..bad air, storms, (yes, we have tried to fix them...cleaner cars, special laws to help. etc.)
12. Immigration Problems of various kinds.
13. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

How come we fix this s**t? We are resilient. We come back & try again, just like we are supposed to. Like when your kid
fails an important test. We just try, try, again...till we get it right. oops. yes, that is an oops. We try again.

[Demsrule86]

52. Your is a wonderful post and I agree completely. So many hear want to blow everything up...

but the solution is not to blow the constitution up...we can use it as we always have to fix this...but a lesson needs to be learned here about voting for Democrats...it has to happen and those who won't can't be catered to as they all demand different things...we need to restore the big tent. It is the only way forward. In times of great difficulty, there are always great opportunities.

[Stuart G]

53. Vote, and get others to vote too. "Restore the Big Tent"

[Demsrule86]

83. And that is the bottom line...we may have to move to the middle to do it...depending where

we find support.

[Nixie]

57. See Al Gore. All or nothing and we get nothing.

That’s the reality of the war on Democrats. Most of us saw this happening years ago. Hillary offered many warnings.