About SCI Classified Documents

[MineralMan]

Many years ago, I handled many such documents, usually without ever seeing what was under those cover sheets, so it's important to understand why those cover sheets are there. I also created such documents and added such a cover sheet to them before passing them along to others.

They don't reveal anything about the content of the documents. They are "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LOOKING AT THESE DOCUMENTS!" warnings. On the very rare occasions when I encountered such a cover sheet on documents I didn't prepare, I was required to immediately report them to a superior, and leave them absolutely alone. That rarely happened, because you just didn't see them lying around.

They were not for distribution to anyone not authorized to view them. Ever. They stayed in secure areas, and were only available when and if someone who needed to view them was present. Leaving one somewhere was an actionable offense.

Now, I can't say anything about what those documents are, because I don't have any idea. I can say that they never should have been transported to Mar a Lago, ever. Much less should they have been packed in some box with other stuff that was unclassified. There are strict rules for handling, storing, and transporting such documents. Very strict rules.

Those rules were not only not followed by Trump, they were flouted by Trump. He could see them, of course, as POTUS, but they were not for random eyes to see. He did and does not care. That's obvious.

Having them at Mar a Lago is a crime. Period. Taking them from the White House is a crime. Storing them with personal effects is a crime. Donald J. Trump is a criminal.

[getagrip_already]

1. I never had clearance at that level... but

I was trained what to do should I ever come across materials above my clearance level. It would not be pretty. It would ruin a lot of people.

This was taken very seriously at all levels.

The fact that it was subverted by tfg's aids to his advantage is galling. This is not just a hand wave event.

[MineralMan]

2. Yes. Exactly.

For anyone who worked in the intelligence community, seeing those documents and knowing that they were unprotected at Mar a Lago is unbelievably shocking. Unthinkable, really.

SCI is not the only designation. Other code words are appended to the Top Secret label to indicate what groups or people are cleared to view the information. I won't elaborate on that, but SCI documents, in general, are closely guarded and only stored in very secure areas. They are simply not left lying around, even at places like inside the NSA building.

[yardwork]

44. That really bothers me. We're seeing a complete break down of our democratic structures.

This is literally what fascism looks like, when laws are flauted and ignored - or used cynically against political opponents, as we saw with the treatment of Hillary Clinton.

I don't understand how millions of Americans can go along with this. It makes me very angry.

[TexLaProgressive]

3. I never had a security clearance, but my Dad and Mom did.

I don’t think most people have a clue as to what having a Top Secret like Mom and Dad or a Q level like Mom does not give on Carte Blanche to have access to every document. The stricture EYES ONLY iirc refers to a need to know is what I am thinking about.

My mother and father went to their graves never speaking, writing or communicating about any classified data, even if it was declassified. They truly believed that is was their sworn duty to maintain security.

Dad was in Army intelligence. He disappeared from the family radar for about 2 years. The only address we had was an APO or FPO which doesn’t give a real location. We received heavily redacted letters from Dad. I suspect he was in a foreign country, out of uniform doing covert work. This means if found out he and the others with him were as good as dead.

What kind of clearance would a Special Master have and would they have a Need to Know what’s in these documents?

[MineralMan]

4. Most people have no clue about what sorts of things

might be in those documents, and that's because they have no reason to know.

I don't know either, and am not interested in knowing. The point is that is is classified information and that it is illegal to mishandle such information. That the former, disgraced POTUS took that stuff with him is a federal crime. He did it, so he needs to face the music for doing that. Simple.

There are only two questions to be answered:

1. Did Trump direct people to take known classified information to Mar a Lago?
2. Did Trump conceal that information from federal authorities?

If so, he is guilty of a serious crime and needs to sit through a trial to face those charges, probably among other charges.

[Pantagruel]

6. Trump's defense

that he declassified all those MAL found docs compounds the crime.
He would be exposing national secrets to anyone who wants to see them under FOIA requests. The defense is worse than the crime.

[rsdsharp]

13. I have no expertise, in fact no experience at all, with classified materials,

but I have seen documents which were declassified. The header and footer classifications were struck through, and a stamp was applied stating the document had been declassified, with the date of declassification added.

I don’t see any of that on the documents laid out on Trump’s floor.

[sarge43]

34. Exactly.

Worse, several of documents in that bomb shell photo were whited out. The only reason has to be they are classified documents without a cover sheet. Anyone entering that room or seeing the photo would know at a glace the kind of info contained in them.

Sweet Jebus on a rocket sled.

[Beetwasher.]

5. SCI Documents Can Only Be Accessed or Viewed in a SCIF

There's no SCIF's anymore at any of Trump's properties and Biden removed his security clearance. To have these documents ANYWHERE else besides a SCIF is serious crime, even IF you had the proper clearance.

[MineralMan]

8. Yes, Exactly.

[crickets]

23. Precisely, which points not only to the crime of removing (stealing) them

but the conspiracy involved in helping him to do it. Even if he could, tfg is too lazy to have personally retrieved every one of the documents. Someone had to go get them. Someone else had to let that person leave the SCIF with them.

[0rganism]

25. unless SCIF is "Shitty Carpet In Florida"... nah, it's a crime scene

got nothing witty to say here. We've been compromised at the highest levels. EOL

[IronLionZion]

7. Trump doesn't have time for your rules

Compliance is for losers

[MineralMan]

9. Screw around and find out, eh?

[CanonRay]

10. I had top secret clearance

but never SCI. Even then, such documents was the reason they gave me a safe for my office. I would never dream of taking them home. Just insane. If he gets off it make a mockery of the entire classification system.

[MineralMan]

14. The Moment President Biden Was Sworn In,

Donald J. Trump was in possession of and transported highly classified information. He had no authority to do so. He committed a federal crime.

[ALBliberal]

11. I had a Q level

I have been appalled through the entire trump presidency at handing out clearances to relatives like candy and these days with this stuff going on I can’t see how anyone with civilian clearances (national labs etc) or in the military can continue to support this.

Really any true patriot has to be shocked and disgusted at this point.

Unless they have bought into the cult.

[MineralMan]

15. Yes. Trump, himself, could never have received a security clearance

at that level if he weren't POTUS. His reckless handling of classified information has always been shocking to me.

[ALBliberal]

30. With a clearance you receive ample training on situations

to stay out of to fend off bribery. As an auditor of government contractors we couldn’t even accept courtesy lunches offered by the contractors we were auditing.

Independence was the name of the game. And beware of anyone trying to hit you up in a bar that might put you in a compromising situation.

Audit materials always protected.

I feel rather sad that so much of our citizenship takes it so lightly and nonchalantly.

[MineralMan]

32. The problem is that Presidents get special treatment.

For someone like Trump, who has no history with government service, there is zero understanding of such things. Worse, you cannot require a President to go through that kind of training. You can't require anything of a President.

Trump is a disaster.

[ALBliberal]

35. He should never have been given the deference

Given other presidents. Honestly the NARA should have retrieved the documents before he left the White House. If that could have been feasible?

I’m sure there will be a new law where all the “ books need to be checked back in” before term ends. Enacted by democrats most likely.

Thank you for your post and replies to me MM.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

12. Have question MM. Do you know how it worked

If someone legit needed to show a top secret document to a prez. Do they check it out? If so why aren't there a whole slew of legitimate people up in arms?

[MineralMan]

17. There should be many people up in arms.

Trump, as President, automatically is cleared to view any classified information. He no longer is, and hasn't been since the second President Biden was sworn in.


And yes, records are kept by the various agencies of his having or viewing such documents.

[halfulglas]

16. This is such an important thread because so many civilians

Don't know the rules even exist. A close relative working for a company that had contracts working with the government had clearance, but when he made a lateral move in his company, he lost that clearance because he had no need for it. If a company plays loose with the rules, they can lose their government contracts. Trump no longer had any clearance because Biden had removed it knowing Trump could not be trusted. The enormity of this find is stupendous. Plus there are still other missing documents that were know to have passed through the WH from those years.

[MineralMan]

19. Exactly. Trump always played fast and loose

with classified documents and information. While he could get away with that as POTUS, he cannot after his presidency is over. Period.

[Lonestarblue]

18. I have a question about the whole process of tracking SCI documents?

Does a president have the right to demand even the most sensitive documents, such as the names of people recruited as intelligence gatherers for the intelligence services? The president makes no decisions about who those people are, so why does he not fit into the category of no need to know?

And what is the process the DNI is supposed to follow to track who has the documents and whether they have been returned to their proper storage? And where are such documents stored—at NARA or with the intelligence agencies? In other words, are they a part of a president’s files stored at NARA? seems dangerous if so.

Such documents are to be viewed only in a SCIF (the Situation Room at the WH) and presumably DNI Ratcliffe would have been there to explain them. Why would he then allow Trump to remove the document to the living quarters? If he knew of this, which I would think he did as the documents were not returned for months, does he not bear some accountability for Trump having the documents?

Thanks for your great information!

[MineralMan]

21. Essentially, yes, a President can order a viewing of

any classified information. That is one of the extraordinary powers of the office.

However, a President does not automatically know what information there is. Generally, Presidents are told about information pertinent to whatever issue is under discussion, but much information is not shared with Presidents, unless they are aware of it and demand to see it. Most Presidents trust the intelligence community to inform them of important information. Trump was different, and abused his authority in many ways.

Once he was no longer President, however, it became illegal for him to possess or transport classified documents. None of them should have left the White House with him.

[KS Toronado]

20. The real danger is Putler already has his copies

Wonder if there's a money trail from Putler to donnie since he left the White House?

[MineralMan]

22. I have no idea, nor any way of knowing.

None of us do.

We don't know if he passed information to Putin. We don't know what he has done with the documents he stole from the White House before they were collected by the National Archive or seized by the FBI.

Someone may know, but not us.

[LiberalArkie]

24. Someone has to sign for the documents at sometime, or has that been done away with?

[MineralMan]

26. I'm sure that is still required.

No doubt there are people checking on all of that right now, or have been checking.

Trump abused his authority all the time. I'm sure he said, "Just leave those documents with me." Presidents have almost unlimited power over things like that. However, a notation would have been made if that happened. But, we can't see that, since all of that is also classified.

[LiberalArkie]

36. My thinking was that someone had to bring them the document that they requested. The person

receiving it had to sign the ledger and had to return it. The ledger would of course indicate who requested the document (probably a lacky). The NARA can surf through the records and find out which ones were requested and which ones were not returned.

This is probably what started the snowball and why it took a little bit of time to create a list of non returned documents.

Odds are is that are many still not accounted for. And how many once out of DC were scanned and retained or sent to Riyad or Moscow.

[MineralMan]

37. Yes. I'm sure an intensive investigation is underway

to track those documents. However, we may never know how much information Trump passed to others. There's probably no way to find out, really. Unless there is a way, but if so, that will be classified at the highest possible level and will never be disclosed in public.

There is likely much we do not know and will never know about all of that.

[LiberalArkie]

46. We shouldn't have ever known anything really. In any other country, everyone involved would have

just disappeared, as it should be.

[yardwork]

27. Will other former military folks recognize this?

I'm wondering if Trump has finally gone too far for many Republicans to support. They constantly surprise me, though.

[MineralMan]

28. Well, those who worked with intelligence information would recognize it.

As far as Republican politicians are concerned, though, all bets are off.

There must be some sort of tipping point for even them, though. I just don't know what it is.

[The Butler]

40. Air Force Security Service/Army Security Agency

New member here. Long time lurker. Mineral Man I recall that you were a lingie in the Air Force. Were you a part of the AFSS? I was ASA stationed with the Air Force in Pakistan 6937th Communications Group. The clearance we had was called Top Secret/Krypto. Had a rainbow colored badge with some hologram embedded in it. I served from 1963-1967. Everything you have said about handling Classified material was spot on. We were reminded of the rules constantly. Even a TS/K security clearance wouldn't allow viewing classified documents if you didn't have a need to know.

[MineralMan]

42. Yes. I was in the USAFSS.

We learned a lot about proper handling of classified materials, for sure. My last posting before my enlistment expired was at the NSA building in Maryland.

[marble falls]

47. My wife spent 30 years in CIA. Including being the stand in 'station chief' during a coup ...

... Mauritania. The US Embassy was across the street from the Presidential Palace that had a jeep with a 50cal machine gun pointed at the embassy gates.

There is never a time that security is allowed to lag and deficiencies were punished and repaired.

She still operates under the clearance she had. As do I as a former nuclear machinist mate.

[erronis]

33. It's telling that very few congresspeople have served in the military (or IC)

I don't know the percentage (D) and (R) but I would guess that most of the new crop of repuglicons have no knowledge of or interest in security. They've been bred and groomed to love money and power.

[mn9driver]

29. The worst part

All of these documents now must be considered as compromised. All of the information in them could be in the wrong hands. That has to be assumed now. There’s no way to tell one way or the other, since there’s no way to tell who has seen them. We may not be able to even verify that the FBI recovered them all.

This represents a tremendous loss and genuine damage to our national security. Someone needs to pay for that.

[MineralMan]

31. Yes. I'm sure the assumption in the intelligence community

is that the information has been exposed, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I imagine there is a scramble going on trying to assess the damage by the agencies that generated those documents. The whole thing is unprecedented. Some folks are probably panicking.

As for myself, I believe that Trump has probably sold some of the information and was planning to sell other parts. He needs money, and I'm sure money is available from several sources for some of that information. I do not Trust Donald J. Trump with anything. Nobody should. He has no conscience nor ethics.

[appleannie1]

38. Here is a comparison to his taking federal classified documents home

I worked in the office of a police department as a dispatcher/secretary for 5 small police departments. The largest had 15 full time officers. I had access to not only state but country and Interpol vehicle, drivers, and criminal records. I had to take an oath never to disclose any information outside the department I worked at. If I had even given a driver's license number or told a friend someone's criminal record outside the office I not only would have been fired, there would have been other consequences. There really is no comparison to the information I had access to and the information that trump so recklessly not only took reams of home but took into rooms in hotels all over the world. IMO, we should bring back the gallows for being a traitor to this country and he should swing from the first rope. And you have to know, I don't believe in the death penalty but in this instance, the safety and even the lives of all of us was put in jeopardy.

[MineralMan]

39. Yes, that is similar.

However, with state secrets of that magnitude, the responsibility is much, much greater. So should be the punishment for violating the nation's trust.

[relayerbob]

41. He's not the only one who touched those documents

He didn't pack the boxes, nor select what went to MAL, or elsewhere. He is too ignorant to understand which documents had actual resale value, and to whom, but someone did (looking at you, Michael Flynn). This is textbook conspiracy, not just an individual case of espoinage. Should result in many arrests before it's over.

[MineralMan]

43. I'm sure you're right about that.

[cksmithy]

45. My first job back in 1970, a little off topic,

I had to verify I was never a member of the communist party to get a job at Pacific Bell as a long distance operator. Fast forward to 1980, I was rehired by a Bell company in the business office, that soon became AT&T. I had to sign documents that I would not disclose Proprietary Information or I would face prosecution. My brother who was in the Navy in the late 1960's, Vietnam era, as nuclear technician had to sign a document or was kept from getting a job in the nuclear industry for 4 years or so. The rational was the technology would have changed and it wouldn't have helped him get a job. Any way, in my own experience many jobs have rules, regulations you have to follow or there are consequences. A supervisor, at at&t was fired, or quit on his own, I'll never know, after he sound proofed his office.