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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI just found out my kid's kindergarten class is teaching Russian 40 mins per day.
Yes Russian!! WTF?!?! Why Russian?? I am shocked, pissed, angry, confused..
Apparently the county school system (PG County MD) decides on one language to teach per year. Why on earth they would choose Russian when there are dozens of other languages that I would think most parents would consider more appropriate than Russian.
I am considering asking his teacher if he can opt out and just play.
Who decided this?? I simply dont get it.
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canuckledragger
(1,992 posts)And want to make sure they understand their future overlords correctly?
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)I hardly think so.
elleng
(141,926 posts)Yes, WHO decided this???
Modern Languages Program
In Prince George’s County twelve (12) languages are offered. They are French, German, Italian, Latin, Japanese, Arabic, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, Korean, Chinese and American Sign Language. Students may take four levels in eight languages, up to seven levels in French and Spanish, and five levels in German, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, and Latin. Advanced Placement may be offered in all high schools.
The modern world languages program is committed to objectives that develop proficiency skills in speaking, listening, reading, and writing. Teachers focus on the Maryland State Curriculum for World Languages, Foreign Language National Standards aligned with Common Core, the 5 C’s: Communication, Culture, Connections, Comparisons and Communities, and Literacy. Grammatical concepts and vocabulary are taught in the context of real life situations as students develop accuracy in communicating. Students are also made aware of the career possibilities open to persons in many fields if they have knowledge and skills in a foreign language. Students are encouraged to speak the target language from the beginning through many student-centered activities.
https://www.pgcps.org/offices/world-languages/modern-languages-program
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)I am just so disturbed by this.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...to a KINDERGARTENER who almost assuredly barely knows English? Let them learn their first language first before inundating them with random foreign languages.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)I just dont get it.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)They don’t understand that learning a foreign language expands their understanding of language concepts generally, and improves their ability in their native language.
But the notion that people may have studied a question beyond knee jerk reaction is also a foreign concept to some.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)
Iris
(16,833 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)It seems many here are not aware that many, many children are raised to be bilingual. Living in Florida as long as I did, I loved the way kids could switch languages on a dime...not in the least fazed by hearing either language.
Never mind that most countries start teaching children another language very early. The best time for learning a language.
ChazII
(6,448 posts)
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)I could sent to such a school district! But even before I opened it up I realized the OP was probably thought it was horrible.
I hate it that we are copying the worst of the MAGA Republicans - shutting out ideas that create cognitive dissonance, reacting (and fixing that reaction in concrete) before thinking, jumping immediately on anything which confirms our existing biases., etc
FSogol
(47,519 posts)
applegrove
(130,012 posts)an apple is a separate thing than the letters a p p l e. It gives kids a boost in cognitive ability to know a second language. That they chose Russian is troubling. Why not Spanish?
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 16, 2022, 03:16 PM - Edit history (1)
It is likely that many kids in the class speak Spanish at home.
At the elementary school near me, they use Chinese.
Response to Effete Snob (Reply #65)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Which means that if you wanted to get the developmental benefits of foreign language instruction with young kids, you would be wasting the time of 13.5% of the kids if you taught them Spanish.
(I meant to say "likely" )
MLAA
(19,659 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Why read books? Everything is on the internet.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)I can't believe I am reading this here.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)LisaL
(47,343 posts)NT
EX500rider
(12,134 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)For someone to object to a school run by professional educators who are (a) aware of relevant educational research, and (b) trying to teach children things.
The bizarre consumerism mentality we as a society have applied to schools is appalling. Whether it is banning books or going after "things in the curriculum I don't like", I think that parents in general should back the fuck off and let teachers do what they are educated and trained to do in conjunction with the other staff and administration.
I don't know if it is unresolved childhood issues or what, but this "let's go after the teachers and the schools" nonsense has to stop.
Teaching things to children is not an evil plot.
prodigitalson
(3,186 posts)
karynnj
(60,765 posts)They learned some basic French. When the kids were 9, 7 and 5, we went to France and it was so nice when my 7 year old asked for 5 pan de Chocolat earning her smiles from the sellers. Also, it is much easier to learn correct pronunciation at that age. I think learning a foreign language actually helps with learning English grammar. I know that it helped me in high school when I first learned a foreign language.
msfiddlestix
(8,159 posts)My daughter only speaks English, but my Daughter In Law's family are Dutch, so the girls have been speaking both languages at the dinner table and actually throughout daily life.
When they fly to Holland every year, they're quie able to enage fluently in every situation they're involved.
The younger a child is, the easier it is. Their brains are like sponges.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)I’ve consistently heard from people with expertise in relevant areas that foreign language instruction in early education has a lot of benefits.
What scientific research on the topic have you looked at?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347424951_Benefits_of_Teaching_Foreign_Language_for_Early_Childhood
My inclination is that education, like a lot of things, is best run by those who have studied the subject.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)But our world is not perfect, most of these children won't ever use Russian in their lives (or remember the Russian they are being taught now in a few years), and yet they will still be taking -- and actively learning about -- the English language for the next decade of their life and beyond.
It's a waste of time and resources to be teaching these KINDERGARTENERS Russian.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...so-called """expert""" opinions are theirs.
A few years from now, how many of these kids do you think will be speaking Russian?
Now, in a few years from now, how many of these kids will have fallen behind and not even be considered "at level" in reading/writing (English)?
Which do you think would have been more useful to them, learning a foreign language they will never speak and forget about in half a decade or further instructing them on the main language they will primarily be using in school for the rest of their lives?
As I said, it's a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on more useful and relevant subjects.
niyad
(129,364 posts)knew, at least two, and often three or four, languages were spoken by all. In my home, there were four, and I added a fifth in high school. Of course, I grew up in the military, so that of course, made for wuder language experiences.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)in the first langauge. Among the many benefits of early study of a second language.
And I am a state certified secondary teacher, so it's more than just my opinion. It is sound educational theory.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)and gym class, too.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)I am not the one suggesting they not learn a language; I am suggesting their efforts at that age go into learning THE MAIN LANGUAGE the vast majority of them will be using the rest of their life.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)You don’t understand and you don’t want to.
This has been a proven concept that is being used in an increasing number of schools.
BadgerKid
(4,947 posts)In particular, for me it was the proper use of 'whom', a point about which conversational English isn't terribly concerned.
Hermit-The-Prog
(36,631 posts)If you dont spent all yer time on proper Amurken, them kids wont have no good sense of what peoples arounum is sayin!
Wish I'd been exposed to Spanish as a 5 y.o. All I know is hillbilly and English and enough German to get me punched.
3 am. Need another shot. There's a loose cannon banging around somewhere, so I've been told.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)do when it comes to speaking their native language. Sure, we have to teach them the rules of grammar, but when it comes to understanding the concept of a language, they get it. They're ready to pick up another one. So speaking 40 minutes a day playing counting games or pointing at colors and speaking in another language is going to come really easy to them.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)They are KINDERGARTENERS.
Five years old.
I'm in my 40s and still learning new things about the language.
These kids will be taking English classes through high school, if not longer.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)My point is that a child's brain is wired to grasp language, and the average child in an average kindergarten class who comes from an average English-speaking home will have a brain that understands, innately, what language is and what it's for. It will also understand, without knowing it understands, that there are rules language must follow if you want to be understood. On that level, the brain doesn't have more to sub/unconsciously learn about language. That's why this point is such a great time to hit it with a new language.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)Learned that word today. Never heard it before in my life. I've gotten back into doing crossword puzzles and find that I still enjoy learning brand new words, the origin of certain words and phrases, etc.
And, no, I don't buy it one bit that a KINDERGARTENER knows all there is to know about the English language. Of course they don't. They can't even read at a basic level -- hell, HALF OF AMERICAN ADULTS can't even read at a sixth grade level!
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)My point is that by age five, a kindergartner has a pretty good idea of how language is a tool for communication. They know without being taught that when they open their mouth, the first thing that comes out is probably going to be a noun, unless they're asking a question. They don't need to be taught that; they've picked it up from listening to baby talk and simple sentences and the radio or podcast that's playing when they're in the backseat of the car and the TV that's always on. And the power of the brain that has gotten them to that point is so large that it can easily do the same for another language, particularly one like Russian, which sounds different enough to hold the brain's curiosity and has a different enough grammar to be a fun challenge -- without the child even knowing it's a challenge.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)You are simplifying language to the point where, if it is so simple, why even bother teach them a second language? You are basically invalidating your original point. Hell, if they already know all they need to know about language at that age, learning Russian could be seen as just "learning vocabulary words" at that point.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)on this thread.
Rob H.
(5,780 posts)so it's weird that's your answer when someone asks, "I'm curious, what new things are you learning about the (English) language in your 40s?" I guess learning that's not an English word would still technically be learning about English, though.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Learning sports and music is something he can actually use in his future life.
Russian?? Nyet!
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)that go now, while you still can.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)You have no idea what you are talking about.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)and not about giving young children the cognitive skills to excel at language, especially English.
We don't teach math with the expectation that in later people will solve trigonometric problems daily or even monthly.
WE TEACH MATH MOSTLY SO PEOPLE WILL LEARN HOW TO THINK LOGICALLY, CLEARLY, AND WITH CRITICAL THINKING.
So too is it with language.
You don't back up your argument with facts and you go directly against science and the experience of teachers and educators.
Ocelot II
(128,884 posts)The point is to offer them a mental exercise that will stimulate their learning abilities.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)Pretty much everything can be offered as a mental exercise that will stimulate their learning abilities at that age, but there are certain subjects that will prove imminently more useful and provide them with the preparation they will need for future school years. Learning Russian is far, far, FAR from the top of that list, ESPECIALLY during these times.
treestar
(82,383 posts)What would be an acceptable language for kindergarteners? Kids in my family went to a school district that taught them some Chinese in that year, and first and second grade.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)I remember there was some talk about ending the Chinese program there, and there had been similar "Why are they teaching kids Chinese?" numbskulls.
treestar
(82,383 posts)didn't know about Linden Hill - but no surprise there are numbskulls around this area - very Republican as if they believe they are wealthy enough to be Republicans.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)You are literally arguing that kids should not know a thing.
Seems weird. Because I've always assumed that knowing a thing is better than not knowing a thing. But fuck it, maybe I'm wrong.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)I am saying they should know something: English.
The time being spent learning a relatively useless language they will forget in a few years would be much better spent learning the predominant language they will be exposed to the rest of their lives, especially given the fact that half of our adult population can't even read at a sixth-grade level.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...instead of bloviating.
Yet here we both are.
pnwmom
(110,184 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)The point is not about learning a language that many students may already know.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)They do not "know" English or Spanish or any other language at that age.
It makes no sense to be teaching these kids a second language when they barely have an understanding of their first language, and that's not even taking into account it is RUSSIAN, which, at this point -- at least to me and many others -- isn't much different than teaching American kindergarteners German during World War II.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)I’m sorry that you do not care to back up your uninformed opinion by reference to any educational research literature. That is what makes it an uninformed opinion.
Studying another language enhances learning English, because it increases language ability generally. I get that you don’t understand that. I also would guess that you don’t understand that children thrive in many multilingual countries all over the world, for that very reason.
pnwmom
(110,184 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)And my opinion is based not on academic research, but actual outcomes and statistics that I have referenced in some of my other posts.
In a perfect world with a perfect child, sure, I'm sure it would be ideal to teach them a second, third, fourth, etc. language -- but we do not live in a perfect world with perfect children. We live in a country where half of adults can't even read at a sixth-grade level, even though we are more multilingual than ever before. If you think teaching kindergarteners Russian is going to solve that problem, I look forward to the day when you have actual literacy data to back it up.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)And I reiterate the same point that I made when you made that claim after making another similarly ridiculous assertion: if you think a kindergartener "knows" English, then you have a very loose definition of understanding what language is, so loose to the point that teaching them a second language like Russian would just be teaching them new vocabulary (which you already belittled), meaning even if one were to accept your argument, you are basically making the point that teaching them Russian would be pointless since they already "know" language.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)So I ask again, if five year olds don’t know language, how do we communicate with them?
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...at a level just above a baby and a toddler, and well below the level expected from even the most intellectually challenged individuals.
If you think a five-year-old kindergartener "knows" the English language when they probably don't even know how to write their damn name, I don't know what to tell you other than you should have stuck by your original pledge to bow out of this conversation.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)They know they have to say "I went to school and saw a dog" instead of "I to school went and a dog saw." In Russian, you *can* say "I to school went and a dog saw." Working on things like that make a brain stronger.
If you say to a child, "I flimbled the wodger on Sammerday," and once they stop laughing you ask them what you flimbled, they'll say a wodger. If you ask them when you flimbled it, they'll say Sammerday. They don't know what it means, but they know how language works. Their brains will then start working on what flimble and wodger mean, and then will quickly discard those sounds, because they have never heard those words and are unlikely to do so again. But if they hear Russian numbers and colors daily, and have a teacher who can pronounce them reasonably well, their brains will hold onto those sounds because they hear them more often. This doesn't "take up" room in the brain or confuse it. It helps it grow.
Did you watch Sesame Street at all growing up? Back in the day, about 90 percent of the skits/words were in English, and about 10 percent in Spanish. If people of a certain demographic know how to count to 10 or 20 in Spanish, it's likely because of Sesame Street. Same experience for these kindergartners. It's enrichment, which is a bizarre thing to fight against.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...when so many kids are getting left behind these days and so many adult Americans lack basic literacy and other vital skills is not a bizarre thing to fight for.
And, no, they don't know how language works. They have the most basic of understandings of how language works. Like I said, slightly more advanced than a baby or a toddler.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)When a baby wants a bottle and he points at it and screams nonsense words, do you consider that he, too, "knows" language? I mean, judging by your very loose definition of what "knows" entails, yes, he does now apparently "know" language.
And, to reiterate, even if one were to accept your loose definition of "knowing" language, that just means that it makes even less sense to teach these five-year-olds Russian because they already "know" language.
Maybe you are confusing simple communication with language. Even a baby knows how to communicate. They do not "know" language. If an adult has a kindergarten-level "knowledge" of the English language, they have a hard life ahead of them.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)
Coventina
(29,083 posts)There are all kinds of reasons why German is a good language to study.
English is a Low German language, and learning German is really is a great way to understand English better.
German music, literature, and philosophy are extremely important to the realm of the humanities and liberal arts.
I'll admit that Russian would be a tougher sell for me. One of my colleagues who studied Russian in college and really fell in love with the language.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Your objection is political, not educational. You are writing off an entire country because you don't like the politics of its current leaders. That's the kind of thing conservatives do because they can't separate facts from opinions/politics: yank sex education out of the schools because they are afraid that the morals they want associated with sexual activity won't be taught; insist that children must be taught both sides of the holocaust (because the facts don't support their ideology).
Go take a few courses on early childhood development. I have - it was required as part of becoming a state certified in secondary education.
treestar
(82,383 posts)is actually the best time.
Kids growing up in a bilingual household will speak both languages like natives.
There is a lot more to German than just WWII. What would be wrong with learning it even during WWII? In fact, someone had to, for spying purposes and no doubt others. Knowing German is not going to turn you into a Nazi.
pnwmom
(110,184 posts)because French speaking people are a significant minority.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)The point here is to expand the developing mind’s ability to understand language by teaching one thwt none of them already know. For that purpose, Spanish would be a dumb choice in an American classroom since there is a relatively good chance that some kids already know it.
I can remember when we had elective languages in Jr. High, the school was not really prepared to figure out what to do about the few Spanish speaking kids we had, who would sign up for an easy A.
ForgedCrank
(3,005 posts)side-effects of a positive nature.
My kids thought it was really neat learning Spanish when they were grade school level. Neither of them picked it up, but it did make them want to learn other languages. One does French and German, the other is doing Japanese (and that's a tough one let me tell you).
So yes, it's not just thinking the kid might want to know Russian one day, it helps them put the pieces together when they start seeing commonality in certain methods and that connection makes everything else easier to understand.
Ace Rothstein
(3,369 posts)There were also some Spanish speakers who didn't do to great at Spanish class but they were just poor students.
treestar
(82,383 posts)grew up with Spanish speaking mother and thus knew both. He took Spanish, because though he could speak it, he felt he did not know enough about the grammar.
muriel_volestrangler
(105,496 posts)Here's the program:
https://www.pgcps.org/offices/world-languages/program-overview
In elementary schools, the most common are Spanish, or Spanish and French. But they have one school doing Russian, 3 Italian, 2 Chinese, and one is "Spanish for Native Speakers".
https://ektron.pgcps.org/greenbeltes/New-to-GES/
"Russian: Kindergarten and 1st grade students attend Russian daily for 30 minutes. 2nd grade students attend Russian once a week for 30 minutes."
So it looks like they're trying a variety of languages to see how it goes, presumably dependent on the teachers they have available. Our DUer has ended up with Russian.
roamer65
(37,813 posts)Québécois and English.
roamer65
(37,813 posts)This is a bilingual nation at minimum. Spanish and English.
BradAllison
(1,879 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)That might be a factor.
Also, it would be dumb to use Spanish in an area where a lot of the kids already spoke it at home.
pnwmom
(110,184 posts)with Spanish speakers, including some who were still learning English, in their neighborhoods.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)The younger you start a foreign language the easier it is to learn it. Also it has been shown that children exposed to foreign languages learn their own language better.
On the other hand this is 'murka and them kid should only be speaking 'murkan
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)The triad of language, music, and math are synergistic for children and adults. Studying one helps the others. Studying all three supercharges learning.
Mathematics is the science of pattern.
Music is the art of pattern.
Language is communicating by pattern.
Learning a second language before age 7 makes acquiring languages easy.
Learn a second one before age 18 and it is harder, but quite doable.
Trying to learn a second language as an adult is very difficult for almost every person.
Teaching Russian, though, now, is just ignorant.
Lucky children are taught second languages at early ages when they have no fear of mistakes and soak things up like sponges. By seeing (hearing) how another language fits together and how the same parts are in different orders and the concepts of gender (Russian has three) stretch the mind.
https://www.leadwithlanguages.org/why-learn-languages/early-childhood-elementary/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/advantages_of_a_bilingual_brain
Smart parents encourage language learning at all ages.
The cognitive benefits of learning a language have a direct impact on a child’s academic achievement. Compared to those without an additional language, bilingual children have improved reading, writing, and math skills, and they generally score higher on standardized tests.
You don't want your child to do well? Stop them learning a second language.
TheBlackAdder
(29,981 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...with the facts that:
- We, as a nation, are more multilingual today than ever before ( https://www.amacad.org/humanities-indicators/public-life/multilingualism);
- Our literacy rates have remained stable, if not slightly declined, for the past several decades (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cnb);
- More than half of adult Americans cannot read at a sixth grade level (https://www.apmresearchlab.org/10x-adult-literacy).
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)3. Much of the multilingualism is due to recent immigration.
4. Consider the basic math. A rise in multilingualism can occur at the same time as unilingual Americans (think MAGAt) decline in literacy.
5. Attempting to assign a single cause as creating multiple statistical outcomes in highly complex domains is counterproductive, pointless, and will lead you badly astray.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...only solidify my point that the focus should be on teaching them English rather than Russian then.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Kids who learn second languages are better at English.
You don't want kids to be better at English?
If you don't want them to have better outcomes with English, then deny them a second language from an early age.
You post is nonsensical in its brevity. I make 5 points, you discuss none of them, and claim it makes you more confirmed in the OPPOSITE.
Illogical and you seem to be simulating a closed mind.
Did you actually read my points?
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)...rather than argue the merits, because even if I do that, you are making my point for me.
Regarding #1, yes, they do measure English literacy, which is the primary language used in this country and the one that they will almost assuredly encounter the most throughout their lives. It will behoove them to learn it and learn it well.
Regarding #2, yes, school funding has unfortunately decreased, which makes it all the more important that the resources that are available are used in a wise and responsible manner and wasting time and effort to teach kindergarteners Russian is not doing that.
Regarding #3, yes, I know that. And even though these immigrant families are raising children that are exposed to different languages, literacy rates have pretty much been stable or even declined over the past few decades.
Regarding #4, yes, that can happen, but there is no evidence that it is happening based on the stats I have already provided.
Regarding #5, yes, and the same can be said for your claims.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)4. What you fail to see is that the stats you provide (well sort of, you provide links) at best are multi-variate outcomes that have enormous numbers of confounding factors of which only one is childhood education in language -- though without examination, I think those stats have nothing to do with and do not mention and do not touch on childhood education in language.
5. No, the same can not be said about my claims. There is well-established evidence, uncovered by professional educators and scientists who study education, well-established evidence that childhood acquisition of second language skills helps with primary language skills.
But you deny the science without presenting any evidence against the weight of scientific examination of childhood acquisition of language skills.
You say yes to all my points and then jump to the opposite conclusion from them. That is lunacy. You are not a serious person.
Goodbye.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)But it is the primary language in this country, which means it would benefit them to learn it and learn it will -- certainly more beneficial than learning Russian, for god's sake.
And who is the one ignoring points now? And I explained why I accepted them -- because it only proves my point that it is more important to focus on teaching these kids English rather than some random second language like Russian.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)There is no reason to avoid a specific language because of the politics of the day.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)But like I said, in Russian culture there are many world treasures, so if Russian interests you, have at it.
llmart
(17,302 posts)My granddaughter learned Spanish in preschool and kindergarten. Her preschool had a woman from South America who had been teaching Spanish there for years. She was wonderful. I used to get videos of my little sweetie, counting in Spanish, pointing to colors and saying them in Spanish. She's 7 now and she can converse in some very basic ways in Spanish. Her vocabulary in English at 3 years old blew me away.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)You are right. Learning concepts, connections, organization, reasoning and clear thinking are much more important than rote facts (seriously).
Facts can be found online and in books.
Knowing how to ask the right questions? Not so much.
Wisdom? Not so much.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Would you be happy with that?
llmart
(17,302 posts)A friend of mine was an interpreter at the UN, in Russian. She wasn't Russian but she had learned Russian as a young woman. She had an extremely important and fascinating career.
I find it interesting that you have a bias against a language.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Compared to Spanish, French, Mandarin, Italian, German, Portuguese, Japanese, Korean, etc..
Its pretty much near the bottom of my list as I suspect it would be for most other parents in my kids class.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)it's about the ease of learning any language at that age, and about the synergism it brings to learning - generally.
But - as to practicality Russian is spoken by more people than 5 of the languages you listed as being more useful/practical Italian, German, Portuguese, Japanese, or Korean.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)We probably spent HOURS doing that in elementary school, and I have not once danced the Hokey Pokey since then.
The practicality of sticking my left foot in, out, and shaking it all about, has eluded me ever since.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)but about learning to dance, and the lessons doing so teaches - like being able to listen to directions and respond, balance, muscle coordination, etc., all of which are transferrable to skills we use until we are unable to move abotu on our own.
Similar to why it isn't about which language is learned, but about the process of learning a language and the way it complements (and enhances) other learning.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)haele
(15,043 posts)Our grandchildren's school teaches both Chinese and Spanish in alternating semesters, and they start it around 5 years old. By third grade they ask the child if they want to continue in Spanish or Chinese.
There are various theories that suggest that a wider range of languages early expands a child's understanding of the native language and enables them to be more flexible later on as their vocabulary expands.
In most modern countries, young children learn multiple languages early on, and can quickly and easily become semi-fluent in other languages as they grow older.
Similar to teaching music and math together, most children can use the natural usage relationship in music to conceptualize mathematical operations.
Haele
xmas74
(30,020 posts)1979-1980.
We had a decent Spanish speaking population in the area. We learned basic words and phrases. We learned songs and at the end of the year a few grandmas made us a meal from their family recipes while we sang to them.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Unfortunately we don’t have an option to choose.
xmas74
(30,020 posts)Russian is useful, as is Spanish,depending on where you live. I'm in central Missouri and a local town has a larger than average population of Russian speaking immigrants from the past two decades.
It's not a dead language. Why treat it like it's useless?
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)
OneGrassRoot
(23,927 posts)from a right-winger site and you forgot to use the sarcasm emoji?
grantcart
(53,061 posts)
RobinA
(10,464 posts)that is the best age to learn a foreign language? I had French in my private kindergarten, and I thought I was all that. I wish they had continued to teach a language when I switched to public school, but no. I had to wait until 8th grade and then it was too late. For me, anyway, I'm not the best foreign language learner.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Many children are raised to be bilingual, surely you know that?
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,339 posts)It's a pretty well known concept for those in education. Didn't your education degree cover that? Mine did.
XanaDUer2
(15,769 posts)
blue neen
(12,465 posts) It's a difficult language to learn.
ProfessorGAC
(75,728 posts)German filled up instantly, and they wouldn't let me take French or Spanish because of their root connections to italian. (I'm modestly capable in Italian but was even better with it back then, given aunts & uncles still speaking & writing it.)
So, when only a half dozen kids signed up for Russian, they filled the class with honor students, whether we wanted to take it or not.
After 3 years, I remember the Cyrillic alphabet & maybe 40 words.
Never had the chance to reinforce it.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)honest.abe
(9,238 posts)blue neen
(12,465 posts)for, at the very least, security matters.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Give the kid a chance to learn English, numbers, colors.
If any language I would have preferred Spanish or French.. something useful.
blue neen
(12,465 posts)Children in kindergarten already know numbers and colors, etc.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)for five years. Adding another language helps their brain make more connections. There's no down side.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)He will never learn enough Russian to be useful.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)But countless gym teachers thought I should learn it.
blue neen
(12,465 posts)My sister took it in high school and college and even considered becoming a translator. We didn't know she'd be interested in languages when she was a small child but that ended up being her thing.
We need people to work in our government who are fluent in other languages. We also need them in the business world, in education, in health care, etc. Why would we think that English is the only language used in the world?
meadowlander
(5,090 posts)learn math.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Math is need for almost any career my kid will have.
Russian?? Nyet.
meadowlander
(5,090 posts)it at all.
They're not just learning Russian. They're learning grammar (which helps them learn English), geography, culture, art, roots of words which many increase their English vocabulary, etc.
It's sad that you don't see the value in learning a foreign language. I certainly never became fluent in any of the languages I studied but I did a lot better on my SATs than I would have done otherwise because I studied German. I've rarely used German but it improved my English.
I also studied Russian in college and got an interview for the foreign service on the strength of it. It's also applicable to careers in linguistics, speech therapy, archaeology, comparative literature, music or any career like social work in some communities where you might be called on to be a translator.
Also Russian is very close to all the other Slavic languages. Once you speak one it's easy to pick up others. So if he wants to study another related foreign language later he will pick it up faster because that web of connections and associations is already laid down.
I speak four or five languages at an intermediate level and four or five others at a beginner level. Each new one I add I pick up a lot faster because memorising vocabulary is so much easier if you can associate the new word with something you already know.
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)Sympthsical
(10,829 posts)This is one of the funnier chains to stumble upon in awhile.
"I do not know educational theory, nor do I have any interest in hearing about it. I will instead insist upon being angry about something purely because of a feeling I have about a culture."
When your argument wouldn't be out of place on a Florida school board . . .
I'm just trying to imagine the notes to the teacher and principal. The resulting eye rolls would be epic.
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)"Not out of place on a Florida school board." 
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)I'll bet you can't believe you are reading that as well!
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)It’s not the language that matters, according to them.
This school system is probably run by persons who have a background in education.
Everyone is an expert in everything these days.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347424951_Benefits_of_Teaching_Foreign_Language_for_Early_Childhood
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Its a total waste of time when the kid needs to focus on the basics.. letters, numbers, colors, shapes, etc.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)How is learning new things a waste of time?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)If you must, learning a different language could pique an interest in linguistics down the road, or machine learning, or diplomacy. Or it's just fun trivia to have a few words of Russian rattling around that he can impress people at the bar with.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)
TheProle
(3,892 posts)I get your obvious point.
Smacks of reactionaries during the Red Scare.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)I realize that there are people who simply do not give a shit about science. The pandemic taught me that well.
What has been found, and why there are a lot of these kinds of programs, is that foreign language instruction actually helps develop young minds in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with the narrow payoff of “teaching language X”.
But I continue to be amazed at the type of confident ignorance that rejects the very idea that just maybe, people who are experts in something just might know more about it than someone who is not.
Disaffected
(6,120 posts)What are your qualifications to make such unqualified statements?
Be honest abe.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)If any language our top choices would be Spanish. French, Mandarin, Tagalog (my wife is from the Philippines)
Russian would be near the bottom of our list.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)Disaffected
(6,120 posts)Russian would not be my first (or second or third) choice either.
However I am still interested in how you might respond to my initial query.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)The point is the process of learning, and how learning a second language (any new second language) - especially at this age - makes it easier for your child to become more proficient in English, and less directly in any subject which includes pattern recognition. It also increases their curiosity about other countries and places, and other languages.
If all you ever do in a shool district which you obviously feel is deficient is focus on the basics, that district is dooming the children in it to be perpetually behind their peers with broader educations. You can't teach children out of deficiencies relative to their peers in other schools by limiting their education to the basics.
Mr.Bill
(24,906 posts)
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Americans will need Chinese, Spanish, German and numerous other languages before they will need Russian, on average.
Russia is now a pariah state and there will be much less contact or truck or trade. Are American parents going to tell their children "Learn Russian, it will advance your career or make you a success in international business"? No.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Let's pass a law banning teaching Russian at any school which receives federal funding. Why stop there, let's erase anything about Russia from our history books! Take it off the maps!
Do you really not understand that, as someone said above, these arguments would fit right in in a Florida school board meeting. And that's not a good thing.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)It's NOT politics.
It's the murderous invasion of a neighbor for expansionist reasons. There was no good reason to invade and kill civilians. Now we are hearing about mass graves again and torture.
What Russia is doing in Ukraine is not "politics". The 400+ people buried in Izium are not a "political" issue. To call it "politics" (your choice of words) is to demean their suffering and loss.
As to school boards, read the post you are replying to again. I wrote, choosing my words carefully,
China will have much more influence than Russia.
Spanish is widely prevalent in America.
Germany is an economic powerhouse in Europe and has a tremendous culture (music and literature) to match Russian culture.
Now note that I wrote "on average". Because even in today's world, there are needs for people who know Farsi and the NK variant of Korean.
Thus I did NOT suggest dismissing the language or the country. Hence the word "on average" and I have taken pains to praise Russian cultural accomplishments in posts.
It is being shunned for greedy rapacious murderous destruction.
Russian will be less useful.
So, as to "school boards", teaching American history with all its racial warts and cringe-worthy slavery has nothing to do with a murderous rapacious destruction of a neighbour for greed.
Nothing I wrote says anything about reducing let alone erasing a country from history books.
Issues of 1619 and white nationalism and Tulsa and Watts and Brown v Board and the rest of that are orthogonal to 2022 economic utility and geopolitics. There are no arguments about learning Russian that can be applied to Florida school boards.
Please deal with exactly the words I wrote. I spend considerable time choosing them and it does not advance the discussion to dial up things I never wrote or suggested or implied. Please.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)As far as usefulness, the choice between Russian and German as an introductory second language are equivalent. Yet you condemn one as a bad choice and support the other. That seems political to me.
Condemning a solid educational choice for political reasons (Russia is a pariah state) is an argument that would feel right at home in front of a Florida school board, regardless of how you dress it up.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)My meaning is that it is inappropriate to teach Russian with no option in America in 2022.
It is the teaching of Russian with no other choice of language that is inappropriate in 2022. In other posts in this thread I have said that there is still Russian culture and music that are worth studying and learning Russian is a wonderful way to go deep. Similarly there will still be need for Russian speakers in Intell, the military, science, and diplomacy.
But that should be a choice.
Now, for kindergartners it would not be practical to offer multiple languages, clearly, but in late 2022 Russian is an awful no-option choice. No single language would satisfy everyone, but Russian is far from the best choice in late 2022.
In the end, I agree with you that it is not right to make a bald statement that a language is "inappropriate" and I should have made my context clear in the body of the message that it was in the context of the OP's child receiving Russian in early school.
Demsrule86
(71,467 posts)elections...and no doubt have spied on us.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)NT
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)The language of a country that is interfering with our elections and spying on us. Not useful at all...
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)
Tetrachloride
(9,334 posts)Currently German and Russian are highest local demand, judging by some job advertising.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)sarisataka
(22,203 posts)
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)someone who could get by if I didn't have to speak in several more.
electric_blue68
(25,672 posts)RobinA
(10,464 posts)God gave me one language, it could have been any language, but I was born in America so it was English. I've been trying to learn languages my entire post-elementary life to no avail. I've tried German (twice), Spanish, French (twice), and Japanese. I'm currently working on Scottish Gaelic. That one's going REAL well!!!
Mariana
(15,613 posts)blue neen
(12,465 posts)Pitiful.
DET
(2,352 posts)I wouldn’t be concerned about this at all. In fact, I would have been thrilled if my child had had the opportunity to learn any foreign language in kindergarten. PG County is almost two-thirds Black and almost exclusively Democratic. I really doubt that there are a bunch of right wingers behind this decision. Your child is being given a wonderful opportunity; please let him or her enjoy it.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)meadowlander
(5,090 posts)at home.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)We just don't want our kid wasting time learning a language he will never use.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)NT
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)If any language our top choices would be Spanish. French, Mandarin, Tagalog (my wife is from the Philippines)
Russian would be near the bottom of our list.
WhiskeyGrinder
(26,185 posts)honest.abe
(9,238 posts)LisaL
(47,343 posts)get a private tutor.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Can't do all, nor different languages for each kid.
Lancero
(3,257 posts)honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Russian is the 8th most spoken language in the world. It is the language spoken by the 4th most powerful country in the world, by many assessments. Even if you despise how the current leaders are using that power, one of the best ways to counter evil is to learn about it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I would imagine you think no one should bother to learn it?
Bucky
(55,334 posts)Geez, 40 minutes a day is such a small price to pay as a hedge against xenophobic ignorance.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they can learn everything and anything.
Croney
(4,988 posts)it will exercise their brains and expand their thinking abilities. Russian, Tagalog, Chinese, doesn't matter. It encourages logical thinking, and that's a skill they can always use.
Forty minutes a day leaves several hours to practice English.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)You don't want your child to do well? Stop them learning a second language.
(However, Russian as the choice is just ignorant in September 2022 and that has been obvious since March 2022.)
The triad of language, music, and math are synergistic for children and adults. Studying one helps the others. Studying all three supercharges learning.
Mathematics is the science of pattern.
Music is the art of pattern.
Language is communicating by pattern.
Lucky children are taught second languages at early ages when they have no fear of mistakes and soak things up like sponges. By seeing (hearing) how another language fits together and how the same parts are in different orders and the concepts of gender (Russian has three) stretch the mind.
https://www.leadwithlanguages.org/why-learn-languages/early-childhood-elementary/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/advantages_of_a_bilingual_brain
Smart parents encourage language learning at all ages.
The cognitive benefits of learning a language have a direct impact on a child’s academic achievement. Compared to those without an additional language, bilingual children have improved reading, writing, and math skills, and they generally score higher on standardized tests.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)We would have been fine with almost any other language... Spanish, French, Italian, German, Mandarin, Arabic, Japanese, Korean.. but Russian??? I just don't get it. Perhaps its the political situation now that really makes it worse.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)
Hekate
(100,131 posts)… in dumbing down school are unfortunately MAGAs.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)So why, other than the politics, do you object to learning Russian, when you are fine with five language which would be less "useful" in terms of ever encountering people who speak the language?
BadgerKid
(4,947 posts)with the support of logical thinking.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and then get used to genders. And the imperfect vs. the preterit.
The learn Russian. New alphabet, which is easy to learn. Then the difference between the imperfective/perfective is like the preterit/iperfect distinction. Then add another gender, and declension of nouns.
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)
DBoon
(24,661 posts)per Wikipedia:
The Slavic languages are a relatively homogeneous family, compared with other families of Indo-European languages (e.g. Germanic, Romance, and Indo-Iranian). As late as the 10th century AD, the entire Slavic-speaking area still functioned as a single, dialectally differentiated language, termed Common Slavic. Compared with most other Indo-European languages, the Slavic languages are quite conservative, particularly in terms of morphology (the means of inflecting nouns and verbs to indicate grammatical differences). Most Slavic languages have a rich, fusional morphology that conserves much of the inflectional morphology of Proto-Indo-European.[25] The vocabulary of the Slavic languages is also of Indo-European origin. Many of its elements, which do not find exact matches in the ancient Indo-European languages, are associated with the Balto-Slavic community.
Apart from the Baltic languages (Latvian and Lithuanian), Slavic languages have retained more of the structure and vocabulary of Proto-Indo-European. While English is also an Indo-European language, its grammar is highly simplified and it has lost many of the original features of proto-indo-European.
Understanding Russian helps one understand what English was like thousands of years ago and how it became the language it is today. This may not be obvious to young elementary school children, but they will retain their lessons into adulthood when they can make these connections.
In short, learning some Russian helps you use English better.
Hekate
(100,131 posts)honest.abe
(9,238 posts)She said they choose different languages to focus on each year. Apparently this the year of the Russians!
LisaL
(47,343 posts)Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you get to dictate what all the children learn. You are just one of many.
Deal with it.
You don't like this, some other parent doesn't like that.
And why should that matter?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)There are oligarchs here too!
LisaL
(47,343 posts)NT
PlutosHeart
(1,445 posts)Personally think that choice of language is slightly odd given it is one of the most difficult and least likely to be used. Unless they know something we do not.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)Jeez.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)than languages more frequently offered (German and Italian, for example).
treestar
(82,383 posts)Even more difficult.
Hekate
(100,131 posts)I think it’s good the school is doing this. I can tell you are being really triggered by the fact that it’s Russian this year — perhaps it would help you to simply ask what the plan has been in the past and how they arrived at their decision. It might be totally innocuous, like a decision that was made several years ago, and now the letter R has come up.
If it’s any consolation, I doubt it has anything to do with MAGA — they are opposed to anything “hard” or “boring” or “irrelevant” being in the curriculum. Like Civics. Or Algebra. Or foreign languages in general, because English is the official language of America and if it isn’t, it ought to be.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Hold him back a year and see whether you like next year's language.
VMA131Marine
(5,156 posts)Russian is actually a good second language to learn. It’s certainly nothing to be upset about.
hlthe2b
(112,663 posts)father just chuckled, calling me his little "kraut". Sometimes we compartmentalize...
Language, any language is a good thing to learn, and at that age especially, it helps brain development.
Maybe they just had access to someone that could produce the materials needed for the Russian language introduction and decided to take advantage of the opportunity.
tishaLA
(14,710 posts)My BFF's daughters have learned English, Spanish, and Hebrew since they were in their cribs. Learning each is beneficial to the others and it allows them to communicate across many cultures.
womanofthehills
(10,695 posts)All the other kids will be counting in Russian or whatever and he will be playing by himself?
TheProle
(3,892 posts)Ocelot II
(128,884 posts)with an unfamiliar alphabet - it will be a good mental exercise for the kids. The evils of the current government of Russia is irrelevant to the value of learning the language.
electric_blue68
(25,672 posts)hardluck
(757 posts)I wouldn’t have expected this on DU. I think it’s wonderful they are teaching a different language every year.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)You would think people here would be more open minded and have a little more common sense but I guess emotional reacting is all the rage these days.
Response to ripcord (Reply #141)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
ForgedCrank
(3,005 posts)Learning Russian doesn't make one Russian or a Russian sympathizer. It's just a language.
Heck, I'd love to know what my enemies are saying. I just wish they would have done stuff like this when I was in lower grades.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)I didn't even realize it until random posters on the Internet pointed out there is absolutely no reason you would want to learn the 8th most widely spoken language on Earth. There's no chance you would ever use it.
In fact I realized that it even creeped into my house. I have gone into the refrigerator and relabled my bottle of Russian dressing as Freedom dressing.
Chellee
(2,281 posts)Or is that better dead than red? One of those.
As for myself, I made sure that the vodka bottle is behind the tequila bottle on the bar. I mean, it was like that before because the vodka bottle is taller, so it just makes sense to arrange them that way, but that's not the point! The point is that the vodka bottle is relatively hidden. Hiddenish. Well, not terribly hidden, but kind of. I was going to paint over the label in red, white and blue, but then I realized that's the same colors as the Russian flag, and it wouldn't be very helpful in making it seem more patriotic. So I didn't do that. Instead I'm just going to sing God Bless America every time I make a screwdriver.
niyad
(129,364 posts)This country ranks nearly alone in lack of multiple language learning. Hell, at least half of its citizens can barely speak their own language. Most advanced countries expect their citizens to speak several languages.
The insularity of what seems to echo "English only" is disheartening.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)And, no, it is not echoing "English only." Don't accuse good, long-time DUers of essentially being MAGA types. Don't do that.
It is pointing out, as you rightfully note, that over half of adult Americans cannot even read at a sixth-grade level and wanting to use what limited resources we have to address that problem rather than teaching kindergarteners Russian.
I am all for learning new languages and all for including more than just English in our everyday society, but I am also very aware that English will be the predominant language these children are exposed to for the rest of their lives and want them to succeed rather than adding them to that 50%+ figure. As the original poster even noted, this isn't even some long-term curriculum, it is essentially a rotating session that is merely temporary. Whatever Russian language they learned, they almost certainly will forget all but a few handful of words in a few years. So then the question is, was it really the best use of resources and time to teach them Russian in kindergarten? When they have so much to learn and so much that they could be preparing for in their future years as a student?
niyad
(129,364 posts)with one's primary language as well. And, as I read some of the other posters, they have the same concerns that I do. Thiis is not about limited resources, it is about living successfully in a global, multi-lingual, multi-cultural, village.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)And yet we are more multilingual than ever, even as our literacy rates have stagnated or even decreased over the past few decades. And, as I believe we both agree, more than half of adult Americans can't even read at a sixth-grade level.
I don't think that the answer to that problem is teaching kindergarteners Russian. And thinking that is not an "English only" mindset and it should not be "shocking" to hear that people believe that if we want to increase fluency in English, we should devote our time and effort into teaching them English rather than teaching them Russian.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Do yourself a favor, and take some early childhood development classesor learning theory classes at your local college.
Learning another language, especially at this age, improves children's ability to learn other things, inlcuding English, math, and music - far more than spending those 40 minutes drilling on the "basics."
Or, you can just continue to think that simply doing more of what failed to achieve reading in the first place will fix it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)any other subjects that are a waste of time?
They are subjects to teach people how to learn. Nobody remembers everything they learned in school. But they do remember how to learn new things. That is the most useful skill there is.
W_HAMILTON
(10,018 posts)Kindergarten is not far removed from that.
As I have said elsewhere, there is no shortage of things that you could be teaching children at that age that would prove imminently more useful to them currently and in future years than Russian.
electric_blue68
(25,672 posts)We had a bit of French in ?4th - 6tg grades. For some reason I didn't like that teacher (I usually remember something about why) so when it came to French as a choice in 9th grade (JHS) I said - no. I didn't want to learn Spanish either at that point.
But...
Russian was our third alternative. Hmm. I thought well I could talk to my dad a bit. He spoke English excellently - I don't know whether his (both) 1st Gen Ukrainian parents started him off with English but he seemed to be able waaaaay back then to speak fluent Ukrainian w his father (my grandfather).
The tricky part was having 3 endings for many words - masculine, feminine & ? nuetral.
OTOH, I thought learning a New, different Alphabet was kind of cool. I do remember a few words. I should maybe look up on line some basics, again.
Now I'm a born/bred NYC'r, so being a translator for the UN was a possibility. Or other UN jobs. BUT while my Local HS continued with Russian, the Specialized HS I went to for Art didn't. (That's where I ended up taking Spanish) I did really want an Art Career, I headed towards that
And geeebz there are plenty of Russians (and we've
seen the demonstrations on line) that are against Putin's murderous War against Ukraine... so there shouldn't be such a "verboten" reaction here - imnsho.
xmas74
(30,020 posts)Each year in elementary school focus on a different foreign language and allow exposure. By the time they reach middle school and high school they'll know what foreign language might interest them
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)My kid is having trouble with the alphabet and counting and writing. Learning Russian just seems like a total waste at his age.
ForgedCrank
(3,005 posts)various reasons for those issues that I won't speculate on. The range of causes is almost infinite, including the most common one being that kids usually just can't stand being locked up in school.
However, the average 5 year old can learn all of the basics in school, and at the same time completely memorize entire sets of cartoon episodes, songs from the radio, rules for their favorite games, and thousands of other things of interest, and none of that inhibits their ability to learn basic core skills at the same time. Learning doesn't have to be laser focused with set boundaries, that's not really how the brain works. It's not like a memory card that will only hold XXX amount of information. The more that little brain is willing to accept, and the key here is the willing part, the better off they are all around.
Learning some Russian basics won't hurt a thing. In fact, it will help overall if the kid is actually interested in it.
In the end, you are the parent and that is an honest and valid position. I just hope you will be open to seeing it from a different perspective because it really can be a very good thing.
xmas74
(30,020 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Just throw out some of the greatest works ever written because they happen to share a language with a modern day madman?
Is all Russian culture now under attack?
Some have sunken to a Freedom Fries level of reactionary thinking here on DU.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Of corse not. This is about a kindergarten class. My kid is 5 years old. He’s having trouble with learning the alphabet and counting. Those are the things I wish they were focusing on. Furthermore if it was a different language like Spanish or French or even Mandarin I think we would be ok with it. At least something likely to help him in the future.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Stop being a bigot. I think the system they have in place of teaching a new one each year is great. It will expose the children to cultures around the world.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Get lost.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)On ethnicity. That's bigotry by definition.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)
LisaL
(47,343 posts)Just think, your kid will know more words in Russian than just one. How is that a bad thing?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Have you nothing better to do?
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)And are now perplexed that your blatant bigotry was exposed and called out by myself and others.
I'd stop digging if I were you.
Sympthsical
(10,829 posts)It was part of a "gifted" program that about eight or so of us were in.
I promise us working class suburban kids were not being prepared for our eventual gallivanting across Europe. When were we ever going to use French outside of vacation? I enjoy Moliere as much as anyone else, but . . .
It's about neuroplasticity in children and taking advantage of it when they're young. Just as children who learn to play an instrument when young tend to be better at math and science when older, children who are taught different languages with different structures when young tend to have better language skills later on. Even if they don't use it as adults, their developing brains benefit from the exercise when younger.
The specific language isn't the point - thinking about language differently is.
But instead of understanding that point, people have decided to go with galloping xenophobia. Some people would have been real, real comfortable with some of our less admirable behaviors during WWII, I think.
(And I did eventually take vacations in France, so suck it, Mrs. Hood! Thought I'd never use bleu in a sentence, did you? Outside of a Wendy's at some indeterminate point in the 90s. It's about being cultured!)
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Sympthsical
(10,829 posts)So what? What's the problem with that?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)But I guess you feel differently. That’s fine.
Sympthsical
(10,829 posts)French culture and language is better than Russian culture and language. I mean, you do you, but both have good things to offer.
Frankly, I wish I had been taught Mandarin, Japanese, or Korean from a younger age. Chinese languages in particular with their reliance on tones is a lot harder to grasp as an adult than as a child. I can speak some Korean, but only because I dated a Korean for awhile who spoke limited English at the time. It was kind of learn some things out of necessity.
But you're also not getting the point. This isn't about the cultures. This is about giving the children language skills outside of the specific language. It's just like teaching music theory to kids even if they don't play an instrument. It gets them understanding concepts in different ways. The object of the exercise is how the brain works - not the cultural question.
Getting bogged down and obsessed with the cultural question means you're kind of not understanding the purpose. People have really made heroic efforts in this thread to iterate the educational importance of what the district is doing, and it's just not sinking in because the cultural issue is forefront (and based on politics, I think).
Is putting politics and culture wars ahead of education something a Democrat wants to be doing? Because that kind of sounds like the other side.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)It’s the practicality of the language. Surprising you don’t get it. You seem knowledgeable.
Sympthsical
(10,829 posts)In that, I will never use it outside of a specialized purpose - vacation, movies, literature, etc.
There aren't a lot of French speaking opportunities hovering around California.
I think you're not understanding it. I had this long explanation prepared, but I'm not sure if I'm making haymakers at the wind at this point. It's about how English and Chinese languages use different language structure to describe time and tense. As a result, Chinese culture and Western cultures often have very different ways of thinking about time that shapes their attitudes, on personal and historical levels. We hard demarcate past, present, and future, whereas Chinese language has a more simultaneous flow and existence. How our brains grapple with the concepts of time and existence is shaped by the difference in the language.
Another example. Some cultures in Africa can see more shades of green than Americans can. Is it because of some biological difference? Turns out, it is not. It is because certain African languages have a bigger variety of words for the different shades of green. The difference in language informs the mind's ability to perceive things.
So it's good to learn things away from Germanic and Romance languages. Our culture is already set up for those because of its European roots. By giving children language tools that are different from the structures they hear at home or in their own culture, their minds are being primed to grapple with other concepts down the road in different ways.
It isn't about being practical. It's about shaping minds to work better.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)It’s about my kid and the other children in his class. I’m sure most of their parents would prefer a different language like Spanish or French or Mandarin.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)apparently bugging them about it.
And if I were your kid's teacher, your kid would be playing in the corner while the rest learned Russian, just like you want it to be. After all, what if he learns a Russian word or two? You seem to think that would be awful.
In all likelihood he won't learn much of the language through kindergarten lessons, regardless of whatever language it is.
Most people don't.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)She is a wonderful teacher and our kid loves her already. I have not said anything to her other than why are teaching Russian.
I just think its too early and the focus should be on the basics which he is behind already. We are considering getting a tutor for him to catch up.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)Yet-
It seems to me it would make more sense to opt out for additional instruction. At least participating with the class in Russian your child is learning something . Playing by themselves isn't going to help catch up.
ETA- my son was behind in basics and needed speech therapy in kindergarten. He is now a sophomore in the top 10 and half of his classes are AP college credit. By the time he graduates he may have a full year of college completed.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)That was dumb comment I made in the op. We will stay with the program.. its just unfortunate it has to be Russian.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)Given US demographics Spanish would be the "best" second language.
However you never know what language might be useful.
In an operation related to Kosovo & Bosnia I worked with 17 different nationalities. Had I known Russian I could have communicated with 7 of them, one being Ukraine. As it was, the Moldovan dialect of Romanian is similar enough to French that I could work directly with them and act as liason with English speaking nationalities.
I was also injured during the same operation and needed stitches. There was a Hungarian unit that had a doctor with them. Hungarian is very different so he and my Moldovan friends spoke in Russian, this being shortly after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. They then spoke to me in Moldovan which I understood with my knowledge of French. If I even have the opportunity I hope to learn Polish and Lakota
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)You have repeatedly suggested that 5 languages which are spoken by fewer people than Russian is would be more practical. So it is either ignorance (about prevalence of languages) or language/cultural biases.
JI7
(93,121 posts)in Russian instead of the translations .
In fact all schools in the US should teach english and spanish and a NAtive American Language . And then another language which the kids can pick from starting from the first day of school.
betsuni
(28,647 posts)Love Gogol too.
mnhtnbb
(33,099 posts)in my public middle school in the early 1960's. My brother took it as his elective language. This was during the height of the space race between the US and the USSR. This was in northern NJ, not far from Princeton and commuting distance to NYC.
Of course my brother did turn out to be a rabid Republican, supporting Reagan, Bush, and Trump.
mnhtnbb
(33,099 posts)here in NC offer two dual language programs from kindergarten through 8th grade: Spanish/English and Mandarin/ English.
https://www.chccs.org/Page/10336#calendar16171/20220916/month
They are so popular in this University community that there is a lottery for places to enroll kids. Not only a University town, but one of the best public school systems in the state. At the time we moved to Chapel Hill (with our two school age boys), it had been recognized as one of the best public school systems in the country. Not long after we moved here in 2000, they offered the dual language programs for the first time.
Kaleva
(40,137 posts)Willto
(301 posts)I think it's great to try to learn a second language at an early age but I share the OP's feelings about the choice of Russian. If I sat down and started making a list of languages that might actually be useful for an American kid to know I doubt Russian would crack the top ten. So why waste a full year of these kids lives when their little brains are the most receptive to absorbing a second language trying to teach them a language that they are about as likely to ever make use of as they are to hang glide off the top of Mt Everest?
Only about 0.3% of people in America speak Russian and most of them do not speak it exclusively which means they are unlikely to ever need a Russian to English translator.
DFW
(59,697 posts)These are tremendously widely spoken languages of our biggest rivals, enemies and trading partners.
I would have them learn Russian, Mandarin Chinese and Arabic for starters. Japanese, too if I could. And except for Russian, I don't speak any of them. My sister-in-law IS Japanese, and one of her sons is proficient in Arabic. My two granddaughters will be fluent in English by the time they are nine, but for now, their preferred language is German--normal, since that is where they live.
One time, about 40 years ago, the girlfriend of a well-off friend of mine wanted to visit the Soviet Union with another girlfriend. She was an outgoing, generous type. Relations weren't too great at the time--Brezhnev/Andropov, those guys. My friend didn't want to let her go. I said the best thing you could do for America is to let her go. He asked why? I said that the more contact Russians had with Americans of her pleasant nature, the more damage we would do to their propaganda about how awful we evil capitalists were. And so it was.
I get big smiles from Chinese, Arabs, whatever, for just speaking my ten words or so of their language, in the case of one I don't know. If we were all fluent in Russian, Chinese and Arabic, there would be a lot less in the way of enmity, mistrust or easy-to-spread hate. As it is, in my job, I get things done because I speak nine languages (nine and a half if you include Schwyzerdüütsch), and I promise you, I have more European friends in the field, including Russians, than all of my colleagues combined.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)I just think it’s too early. Yeah I know all about children can learn multiple languages at a early age but I really think he would benefit more from a focus on the basics. His school day is quite short. 9.30-3. So with lunch and recess he’s only in classroom setting for less than 4 hours. So about 1/5 of that time he will be learning Russian. It’s absurd.
DFW
(59,697 posts)It's no accident that Americans visiting Holland or Scandinavia are astounded that 11 year old kids can guide them around in correct English. It is also no accident that those countries that dub foreign TV programs and films are those where foreign languages are not widely spoken, and when they are, not with anywhere near the universal fluency of the smaller countries.
My wife and I spoke ONLY our native languages to our children from day one. At first they answered my English with German, but they understood everything I said. When my parents and siblings, whom they liked tremendously, visited, and they noticed that their German was not understood, they quickly started answering in English--unnatural to them at first, but they quickly undertood how important it was. One is now married in New York, and the other got a dream job (now makes 7 figures a year in Euros) in part because she was completely bilingual. My nephews are still angry with their mother that she did not always speak to them in Japanese, as fluency in Japanese is a get in free ticket to many dream jobs for an American. They see their cousins--our daughters-- switching back and forth in mid-sentence, and are jealous. This kind of fluency is something that can only be learned in the earliest formative years. In this age of being able to be almost anywhere by plane in 20 hours or less, I don't consider it absurd at all. But that's just me. I have lived it in person, and someone who hasn't won't have my perspective on the subject, which I accept.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Its the choice of Russian is baffling to me when there are so many more practical/useful languages they could have picked from. Plus I think they should have waited until 1st grade to start this program.
DFW
(59,697 posts)The earlier the better is the rule for absorbing languages, but circumstances play a role, too. After 1991, Western Europe was flooded with Russian speakers, from economic refugees to sharp businessmen looking for an early foot in. Knowing Russian was an unimaginable advantage for everyone from real estate brokers to social workers.
My wife, who IS a social worker, had one difficult Russian immigrant who heard that everything was free in Germany ( and he didn’t even read DU ha ha!), and was disappointed to find that he was expected to work. He continually skipped out on appointments my wife made for him with prospective employers, claiming afterwards he hadn’t understood enough German to know when or where his appointments were. He wasn’t stupid, just lazy. Before recommending that his welfare be terminated and having him expelled back to Russia, my wife decided to give him one last chance. She called him up one Friday evening, and told him to hold the line a second. Then she put me on, and I told him in Russian that he was to be in her office without fail at 8:00 AM the following Monday morning. I told him that if there was any part of what I said that he didn’t understand, that now was an excellent time to say so. He acknowledged, я понял, я понял (I understood, I understood) and he was indeed there at 8 the next Monday morning. He finally got it that she was not playing around, and got a job interview that he took seriously. His German has improved greatly (it was probably already better than had been admitting), and he has now held that job for over ten years.
The world is just going to keep getting smaller and smaller. We are going to be running into Russians, Chinese and Arabs more and more, not less and less. The best thing we can do for our children is to prepare them for this. I promise you that the Russians, Chinese and the Arabs are foing the same with their children with English, but with those same other languages as well.
Response to honest.abe (Original post)
honest.abe This message was self-deleted by its author.
msfiddlestix
(8,159 posts)I don't live in Maryland, what is PG County?
And is the school public or private? If private is it associated with religion?
If it's public, is PG County close to Washington DC?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)msfiddlestix
(8,159 posts)Simply speculating, because it's the Russian language, as opposed to Spanish, French, German etc
Could it be, there is a Government interest for the next generation of intelligence work force to speak Russian fluently?
Are you involved with the District School Board? When you vote, are the School Board members on the ballot?
For me as a Senior no longer involved in public schools, I am generally at a loss of who to vote for to sit on these district school boards, cuz I have no idea who they are, what they're philosophical views on education are about. So I have to reach out to friends who have a connection to these offices to decide who to vote for,, else wise I skip over that office and leave it blank.
But when my daughter was in school from pre-school up I was involved until she left for college. So I knew who the players were and what they were about.
On the point you were making, it is precisely the opposite that is true. Children at a very very young age are exceedingly able to learn more than one language quite well. Developmentally speaking it's the optimum time to learn Languages and Music!
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Its fine except I wish it wasn't Russian. Perhaps Im overreacting but seems a shame it wasnt something else that we feel would be more useful.
Emile
(40,378 posts)speak Spanish would open a lot of doors for employment later in life.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Apparently some of the other schools in the county are teaching Spanish. They do some sort of rotation of multiple languages and we just happen to have gotten Russian. Lucky us!
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)I'm for kids learning a language, but choosing Russian to teach them is strange, random and not applicable to most children's lives in the US. French, Spanish, Mandarin, pretty much any other major language would be more useful.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Thanks!
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)undesirable. I can see that that isn't your point. Why Russian, is the point. I would find that very strange. I went to a large suburban high school (during the Cold War) that offered four languages, and Russian wasn't offered. Normally that's something you might choose to take in college, if you're interested.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)According to Berlutz there are 154 million people who are native speakers of Russian and over 250 million world wide. That places Russian a solid 8th, right behind French, as most spoken language.
In the US there are about a million Russian speakers but it doesn't take a crystal ball to predict that in a decade or two we may see many more Russian immigrants.
Also no one is suggesting Bengali or Hindi as useful. Together they are approaching a billion speakers and the main languages of perhaps the largest underutilized economy in the world.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)The Ukraine war is just the latest assault. It's extremely suspicious to me that some school official somewhere would choose NOW to push Russian on 5 year olds--it's not a choice, parents aren't choosing this among other languages.
sarisataka
(22,203 posts)The OP made it sound like it has been in place, including Russian, for at least several years.
A quick map check shows PG County borders DC. It is no great leap to expect many students may end up working for the government. Now to the school district, would teaching Russian possibly be useful in the students' potential careers? They may be of the opinion it is not useless.
Do you view learning a foreign language as indoctrination? If so, why is Chinese being suggested as useful? They certainly spy at least as much as Russia. Does studying Arabic lead one to becoming Muslim?
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)by Russia, including the NRA. Now consider that the MAGA crowd has also been very successful in taking over school boards. And they loves them some Russia/Putin, still. This may have been a benign and well-meaning decision by a decent administrator, but it may also be some school-board MAGAt's idea to familiarize children with the Russian language and culture (which they believe to be superior: ultra-christian/anti-gay). It all depends on who is making this decision. If I were a parent, I wouldn't pull my kids out of the class, but I would lament not having a choice for a more relevant language being introduced. I would also not be happy if this were part of a political agenda. Very weird timing.
Dysfunctional
(452 posts)BannonsLiver
(20,201 posts)Half of what she was taught was in Spanish. That gradually increased. I have to say she’s extremely smart and have wondered if that early introduction is one big reason.
As for Russian to hell with that. It’s the language of the Klingons of our world. Plus it’s just not as practical as Spanish is.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Unfortunately we have so say in the matter.
iemanja
(57,333 posts)Unfortunately, one language per year is not the away to acquire proficiency in any language. Children who are bilingual have a greater mental capacity for learning languages later in life. This isn't the place to stake out a nativist claim. You hate Russia. So what? Does that mean people shouldn't read Tolstoy or Dostoevsky in the native Russian? Putin doesn't negate the value of the entirety of the value of Russian history and culture.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Russian is simply not a practical/useful language for a kid to learn in kindergarten. There are numerous other languages that would have been better choice and we would have had no issue with. Why is that so hard for some people to understand that??
iemanja
(57,333 posts)I think it has everything to do with hating Russia. Your post conveyed outraged, not a simple pedagogical disagreement. I do think, however, they should offer multiple languages and let the children/parents choose which they think most useful.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Please go elsewhere with your nonsense.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)What gives?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Can you not read? Its about the practicality and usefulness of a language. I stated that multiple times.
Take your baseless negative comments elsewhere.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)I don't buy that for a second.
iemanja
(57,333 posts)"I am considering asking his teacher if he can opt out and just play." You rather your child learned no language than Russian.
I am a member of this community and have a right to respond to public posts. If you don't want disagreement, don't post.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)We are not going to opt out. We will stick with the program. Its simply unfortunate is has to be Russian.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)He is fine with all other languages.
kcr
(15,522 posts)It is clear what the OP is about. I find it appalling.
LisaL
(47,343 posts)xenophobia.
Ms. Toad
(38,119 posts)Children pick up languages much more easily at that age, than at older ages. Russian is the 8th most spoken language in the world, so it isn't like it is some obscure language that a few people speak. Unlike many other languages, it uses an entirely different alphabet than ours - so exposure to that difference will open their eyes. It also had characters/words in common with several other languages
I think you're letting politics cloud your judgment. It feels a bit like not wanting your child to be taught anything about sex because you want your child only to hear those fact-based lessons embedded in your particular morality. Don't write off the value of early language education - or of giving your chlid a glimpse into the possibilities of worlds very different from their own simply because of the political structure/leadership of the country.
I visited the Soviet Union (including Russia) before it broke up. In advance of the trip I learned a bit of Russian (as I always do before I travel). I didn't learn enough to communicate well - but I could get around with the basics, and it opened the door for conversations with a lot of lovely people who were eager to share their stories.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)The nuns taught us French until the diocese cut their funding and we no longer had a French teacher.
I studied Spanish in high school for three years. I cannot remember the French or Spanish and am nowhere near conversational in it.
But Russian? Where would someone practically use Russian in their day-to-day life? What an odd choice.
Response to honest.abe (Original post)
Initech This message was self-deleted by its author.
Deep State Witch
(12,539 posts)NSA is right up the road in AA County. They are probably seeing a need for more Russian linguists, since the old fossils like me that worked there during the 80's have since retired. They're probably going to recruit the really good students for a minority scholarship program, or intern program. Although, I'm surprised too that they're not doing a language more commonly spoken in PG County, like Chinese or Spanish.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 16, 2022, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful posts with the exception of those who are certain I am a bigot and hate Russia. To those people I forgive you as we are all on the same side and if you knew me you would know I am not that way at all.
Also, I am bit more comfortable with the situation now. This is just one year and next year it very easily could be Spanish or French or some other language that we feel is more useful and practical. Also some of the comments made me think more about the positive effects of being exposed to a language like Russian.. one person wrote... "Russian is a great language to learn. Imagine being able to read Tolstoy and many other Classics in Russian instead of the translations". That one got me. Thanks JI7!
Anyway thanks again. I am done with this thread.
Honest.Abe
Ciao!
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)I am sure it won’t hurt your child and it may help overall. I doubt most of the children will actually learn to speak Russian on any real level though or that they will remember any of it because speaking it at home is the way most people learn languages, with parents or other relatives etc.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Yeah, we dont expect him to learn any Russian but just being exposed to another language should be helpful as many have suggested in this thread. I really wish it was Spanish as we were hoping to have him learn Spanish at some point so this would have been a nice introductory. Damn shame.
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Over Russian too because it would be more useful here, but he can learn it later prolly. I am currently trying to learn some Navajo, it is pretty difficult, but I had to take a break for a while, I hope to get back to it soon.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)Why not Russian?
jmowreader
(52,875 posts)Eto mozhet okazat'sya neobkhodimym navykom, yesli Trampa pereizberut.
Actually...although Spanish or French would be more logical languages to teach the kiddies, Russian isn't a bad idea. Because Russian uses a completely different alphabet than Western languages do, the young Russian speaker's mind naturally expands. And like I said in the first line, if the Orange Walrus gets a second term we might all have to learn Russian just to understand the edicts from his masters in Moscow.
Feel fortunate. At least they're not teaching Polish. Polish doesn't really obey word order rules..."Trump fucked over America," "America was fucked over by Trump," and "Fucked America Trump over" all mean the same thing to a Polish speaker.
Also be glad they're not learning Korean. The Korean alphabet is a little strange...they use "syllable blocks" in Hangul, where all the characters that form an entire syllable are stacked up inside of a small square.
Blecht
(3,806 posts)Russian is a great language to learn.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)Clearly you have not.
FYI... personal insults are not appreciated.