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if you build on a volcano... (Original Post) myohmy2 Oct 2022 OP
12% of Americans live in California Sympthsical Oct 2022 #1
cool story bro Blues Heron Oct 2022 #2
We are the people who help other people. Who are you? LakeArenal Oct 2022 #3
As posted earlier snowybirdie Oct 2022 #4
I do. Snow rarely kills, and when it does, it's an exception, not a rule. lindysalsagal Oct 2022 #14
It sucks if you don't want to pay someone to shovel Polybius Oct 2022 #18
Well, fellow taxpayers don't foot the bill for my 4WD needs.... Sogo Oct 2022 #28
Winters are predicted to become more mild Kaleva Oct 2022 #33
Right. Conjuay Oct 2022 #42
We had an earthquake in NC 10 yrs ago XanaDUer2 Oct 2022 #21
And nonsmokers sometimes get lung cancer NickB79 Oct 2022 #50
Thank you. Hurricanes aren't a surprise in florida. But the politicians are afraid to exact lindysalsagal Oct 2022 #53
Seems to me there is a statue to the man who would not leave his house at Mt. St. Helen Srkdqltr Oct 2022 #5
I think if an earthquake knocks down my house... Iggo Oct 2022 #6
+1 Native Oct 2022 #24
This! mcar Oct 2022 #30
Point Hekate Oct 2022 #39
Like so many things in life, where you live is many times a compromise. Chainfire Oct 2022 #7
And where exactly do you live? relayerbob Oct 2022 #8
...so we can all move there and be safe from natural disasters. Iggo Oct 2022 #10
What do I think? That this is a shitty post. WhiskeyGrinder Oct 2022 #9
Oh no, not on DU Tree-Hugger Oct 2022 #11
+1 Native Oct 2022 #25
Wonder if those who were demanding that proof mcar Oct 2022 #31
" three-fourths of the storms affected the state between August and October" lindysalsagal Oct 2022 #12
There's lava under Ohio. KentuckyWoman Oct 2022 #13
Are you sure you're on the correct site? nolabear Oct 2022 #15
This, along with the regular wishes that FL and TX mcar Oct 2022 #32
I think there isn't a place on this planet that is immune from one natural disaster or another. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2022 #16
I was just mentioning this bastard yesterday as a new friend and I were talking niyad Oct 2022 #20
how is it DU is full of people who see no grey areas treestar Oct 2022 #55
If I said what I think sarisataka Oct 2022 #17
This is a right-wing view. TheBeam19 Oct 2022 #19
Putting the morality of what you wrote aside..... paleotn Oct 2022 #22
That's reality in Hawaii. hunter Oct 2022 #23
So, all the communities around Mt. Rainier are on their own? 3.3 million people? BWdem4life Oct 2022 #26
they said ON the volcano treestar Oct 2022 #58
Yes, we should. Elessar Zappa Oct 2022 #27
I can't think of a part of the country that isn't impacted by 'natural' disasters Model35mech Oct 2022 #29
Name a location you would consider safe for rebuilding. brooklynite Oct 2022 #34
hey... myohmy2 Oct 2022 #35
I'm no tax lawyer blogslug Oct 2022 #36
Nice try. Except you weren't pleading poverty. Iggo Oct 2022 #37
what... myohmy2 Oct 2022 #38
so they NEVER do? There is no place where it's stupid to build? treestar Oct 2022 #56
So your taxes should not assist those making choices you don't like Sympthsical Oct 2022 #49
I hope you understand that there is not one single place on the planet that is free from disaster... Hekate Oct 2022 #40
I... myohmy2 Oct 2022 #41
We are talking about climate change here Kaleva Oct 2022 #43
Yep. And it behooves us to help one another intelligently & compassionately Hekate Oct 2022 #46
I think Biden should make climate change adaption a priority Kaleva Oct 2022 #48
but there are degrees treestar Oct 2022 #57
The hurricanes are more and more frequent and more powerful. Emile Oct 2022 #44
People shouldn't be living in areas that have weather Johnny2X2X Oct 2022 #45
I think OP is talking about climate and not weather. There's a difference Kaleva Oct 2022 #51
Where do you live? GusBob Oct 2022 #47
Seattle is at risk for earthquakes and tsunamis, not Mt Rainer LeftInTX Oct 2022 #52
that would be absurd treestar Oct 2022 #54

snowybirdie

(5,225 posts)
4. As posted earlier
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 10:47 AM
Oct 2022

Gee
Who'd want to live in California? Earthquakes and fires
Who'd want to live in the west? Drought
Who'd want to live in the Northwest? Damp with earthquakes.
Who'd want to live in the midwest or the South? Tornados
Who'd want to live in New England? Terrible and cold winters
The east coast? A bit of it all

Where you gonna go?

lindysalsagal

(20,680 posts)
14. I do. Snow rarely kills, and when it does, it's an exception, not a rule.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:51 AM
Oct 2022

Snow isn't a big deal when you live north and learn how.

Polybius

(15,398 posts)
18. It sucks if you don't want to pay someone to shovel
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 12:05 PM
Oct 2022

You need also almost need a AWD/4WD vehicle. If work is more than walking distance, how do you get there if it's 20"+ of snow?

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
33. Winters are predicted to become more mild
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 02:44 PM
Oct 2022

As average global temperatures rise. The polar caps are already shrinking, the permafrost is thawing , the Greenland ice sheet is melting and glaciers are retreating. It's been in the news quite a bit lately.

The farm belt in the US is expected to move north as the northern parts of the Great Lakes region become more temperant and the growing season becomes longer. Summers will be hotter as there will be more days in the 80's and some in the 90's.

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
50. And nonsmokers sometimes get lung cancer
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 12:42 PM
Oct 2022

Just because it happens doesn't give smokers a free pass to keep smoking, because those cigarettes drastically increase their odds of getting it.

It's not about what lethal climate effects COULD happen in different areas. It's about the odds of them happening in a given area in any given year.

And the odds of them happening in certain areas of the world are rapidly reaching 100%.

A killer tornado in Minnesota? Possible but rare. Florida being flooded by FEET of sea level rise when the Thwaites Glacier finally let's go in 20 years? 100%.

lindysalsagal

(20,680 posts)
53. Thank you. Hurricanes aren't a surprise in florida. But the politicians are afraid to exact
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 02:55 PM
Oct 2022

real limits on the migration, and individuals keep forgetting about the danger in between "record breaking" storms.

Srkdqltr

(6,276 posts)
5. Seems to me there is a statue to the man who would not leave his house at Mt. St. Helen
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 10:48 AM
Oct 2022

When it erupted. I think he is considered some sort of a hero?
So I figure yes we would have to . people are weird.

Iggo

(47,552 posts)
6. I think if an earthquake knocks down my house...
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:05 AM
Oct 2022

…I’ll look forward to coming to DU so people can call me a fucking idiot.


What in the actual fuck….

Tree-Hugger

(3,370 posts)
11. Oh no, not on DU
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:26 AM
Oct 2022

A few posters yesterday demanded proof that anyone in DU would be heartless about people in Florida: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217213104

This isn't the first post like that here and it won't be the last.

Did I trip and fall and land in Freeperville?

lindysalsagal

(20,680 posts)
12. " three-fourths of the storms affected the state between August and October"
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:45 AM
Oct 2022

Possibly, there could be some kind of limit to visitors in hurricane season, and businesses could close, so workers needn't be there during the danger season. Hospitals could be re-located and storm-proofed. Trains could be on hand, ready to move people out quickly when storms erupt in the ocean. Insurance could require boats and cars moved in season. Re-builders could either use cinder-block, simple materials, in 2nd-story style, so that they're not expensive or fragile, or bring in temporary rv's that can be re-located after summer.

Yes, it would "change" the way of life there, but it would also prevent tragedy and financial loss.

Just like the poor of the flood zone in New Orleans, we must try to prevent the lower-income and retired from taking these risks.

But the uber-rich with the 2nd waterfront estates need to know they're taking a risk, and be able to absorb it themselves, in order to put luxury estates in harm's way.

There could be middle ground, but as some here have wisely noted, localities allow huge developers to cash in and drain those who really can't afford to absorb these losses, or escape in time.

nolabear

(41,960 posts)
15. Are you sure you're on the correct site?
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:52 AM
Oct 2022

At least I hope this isn’t the direction DU is heading.

Where do YOU live?

mcar

(42,307 posts)
32. This, along with the regular wishes that FL and TX
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 02:29 PM
Oct 2022

would secede, makes me concerned it is the direction DU is heading.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
16. I think there isn't a place on this planet that is immune from one natural disaster or another.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 11:54 AM
Oct 2022

Also, world class butthole Bobby Jindal said the same thing about volcanos: https://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/25/jindal.volcanoes/

niyad

(113,284 posts)
20. I was just mentioning this bastard yesterday as a new friend and I were talking
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 12:08 PM
Oct 2022

about Ian, Cuba, Waldo Canyon and Katrina. ROTTER.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
55. how is it DU is full of people who see no grey areas
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:13 PM
Oct 2022

it's not either/or.

Most places have something that could happen. Others we as a society would not enable building on - leave it to the super rich.

The side of a volcano is obviously one example where we could say we're not helping. A certain number of miles away from it, where damage could occur but not certainly would be a different story.

TheBeam19

(344 posts)
19. This is a right-wing view.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 12:06 PM
Oct 2022

“You got yourself into this mess, so you can get yourself out, alone, with no help from me.”

They apply this to everything: poverty, school loans, drug addiction…on and on the list goes.

Totally right-wing.

paleotn

(17,912 posts)
22. Putting the morality of what you wrote aside.....
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 12:12 PM
Oct 2022

Much of this has to do with stupid development. Developers and local jurisdictions not properly assessing risk and the full impact when a rare event does occur or becomes not so rare. There are ways to harden Florida, making it far more resiliant to hurricanes. However, that crimps profits and potential tax revenue by making some areas off limits to development.

Case in point in my old home town. Years ago I was just shocked that Nashville's city fathers were dumb enough to allow residential development at the end of Pennington Bend. That's just crazy shit. Sure, it's flat farmland, easy to develop and has wonderful access to highway infrastructure. But it floods. It flood ALOT. THAT'S why there were few structures in that section of the bend. Trust me. I know. I grew up across the Cumberland River in Neely's Bend / Madison, on high ground mind you. In 2010 much of it was flooded. Seems no one learned much from that experience.

Back to the morality of this situation...yes, we do have an obligation, because you and I are not immune to short sighted mistakes either. Or being sold a bill of goods by slick sales types and on and on....

hunter

(38,311 posts)
23. That's reality in Hawaii.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 01:12 PM
Oct 2022
Here's What Happens To Your Property After Lava Covers It

More than 700 homes have been destroyed by lava on Hawaii's Big Island. Residents who lost their property now face limited options.

Amber Makuakane, a mother of two, purchased a home nearly a decade ago in Leilani Estates, a lush, rural community on Hawaii's Big Island. Makuakane grew up in the neighborhood and wanted her children to enjoy the jungle in their backyard as she had.

That all changed on May 3, when a volcanic fissure opened up in their neighborhood, sending lava and hot gas exploding into the air, and forcing the family to leave their home for what would be the last time.

A few days later, Makuakane received a text message from a friend confirming her worst fears — their home had been completely engulfed by lava. The 37-year-old elementary school teacher told BuzzFeed News she hasn't been able to return to her property since it was destroyed, because the lava has made it inaccessible, covering at least a mile around it.

--more--

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/after-your-home-gets-covered-by-lava-hawaii-volcano-rebuild


BWdem4life

(1,665 posts)
26. So, all the communities around Mt. Rainier are on their own? 3.3 million people?
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 02:14 PM
Oct 2022
https://www.nps.gov/mora/learn/nature/volcanoes.htm
https://www.usgs.gov/volcanoes/mount-rainier/volcanic-hazards-mount-rainier

Including Tacoma, WA?

Nobody should live anywhere near it? Where should everyone live in this country? Give exact locations where 330 million people should actually be residing, please.

Crickets. You know you stepped in it, but don't have the decency to self-delete.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
58. they said ON the volcano
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:17 PM
Oct 2022

not "around." Geez people jump so quick to be victims. Where did they say that?

Model35mech

(1,531 posts)
29. I can't think of a part of the country that isn't impacted by 'natural' disasters
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 02:24 PM
Oct 2022

All this criticism of hurricane victims just seems a too facile attack on the state of DeSantis.

Floridians, South Carolinians, democrats and republicans, are MY FELLOW CITIZENS. I understand their desperate needs. And, my pro-social intervention begs me to recognize their legitimate needs.

I don't need to share DeSantis' politics to appreciate that all those who have had their lives put in the blender of a hurricane ad really, really, need the help of national level agencies and programs as well as individual contributions and compassion.

I get that it's a matter of choice. You and I can choose to help or not depending on our inclinations. I pray that our inclinations are to help people survive and recover.

My deep hope is that, setting aside politics, you share enough compassion for fellow citizens to believe that whether DeSantis is a hypocritical ass or not is a diversion. There are people in my country, IN YOUR COUNTY, who are in desperate need. A need that CAN be met by legal and compassionate action of the government and citizen initiatives.

People live where they live for very diverse and complicated reasons. It can be irrationaly hard to move from the where you were raised and anchored. Sometimes moving is impossibly hard with the pressures of family, cultural affinities, available industrie to in which to be employed and just plain familiarity with a place where you have the experience to know what it takes to survive and get on with life.


myohmy2

(3,162 posts)
35. hey...
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 07:42 PM
Oct 2022

...I'm in the minority here, who would have thought...

...I don't have the tax or premium dollars to keep helping people build and rebuild on volcanoes...

...being on a fixed income, with the impact of war in Europe, with inflation and the cost of everything rising here, (and with no significant governmental or economic help for MY troubles) I would appreciate people not taking what little money I do have out of my pocket...

...those kind-hearted souls with deep pockets should feel free to dig even deeper to help...

...but I'll bet many of those kind-hearted souls would oppose any SS increase in help for me...

...and I don't even like volcanoes...

blogslug

(38,000 posts)
36. I'm no tax lawyer
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 07:57 PM
Oct 2022

But I don't think that's how taxes work.

Also, climate change is coming for us all, even where you live.

Iggo

(47,552 posts)
37. Nice try. Except you weren't pleading poverty.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 08:36 PM
Oct 2022

What you were doing was in effect advocating for the withholding of aid because they deserved what happened to them.

Everybody….Every. Body…called you out on it.

So just don’t.

myohmy2

(3,162 posts)
38. what...
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 02:01 AM
Oct 2022

...I was pleading for was with trillions of new spending we couldn't find money for dental or vision or an increase in SS but we have an endless open-ended money supply for people who want to build or rebuild on volcanoes...

...with an unpredictable natural disaster I can see helping an area rebuild once, twice maybe three times...

...but with clockwork-predictable localized semi-yearly disaster events, after the 20th rebuild I'd say it's time to do something different...

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."...Einstein

...if you've got money to piss away, make a donation...

...

treestar

(82,383 posts)
56. so they NEVER do? There is no place where it's stupid to build?
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:14 PM
Oct 2022

and is anyone besides the very rich able to build in such places?

Sympthsical

(9,073 posts)
49. So your taxes should not assist those making choices you don't like
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 11:11 AM
Oct 2022

And people say Republicans are hard to understand.

Seems to me the essence is understood just fine.

Hekate

(90,674 posts)
40. I hope you understand that there is not one single place on the planet that is free from disaster...
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:39 AM
Oct 2022

Natural disasters are part of the package of living on this Earth. The Earth is alive, and it moves — always has, always will. Earth, Air, Fire, and Water — all in motion, sometimes violent motion.

What do I think? I think it behooves us to help one another, in good times and bad.






myohmy2

(3,162 posts)
41. I...
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 07:42 AM
Oct 2022

...can see I'm going nowhere with this, we'll have to agree to disagree about a blank check...

...thank you (and everyone) for your input...

...for me, charity begins at home...

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
43. We are talking about climate change here
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 07:59 AM
Oct 2022

Sea levels are rising, droughts are becoming more severe, wildfires, the intensity of hurricanes is increasing, wet bulb temperatures are risng As climate is not uniform around the world, some regions will become less hospitable for human habitation for the reasons I previously mentioned while others will become more suited for human habitation.

The Great Lakes region is expected to become a mecca for climate change refugees.

Hekate

(90,674 posts)
46. Yep. And it behooves us to help one another intelligently & compassionately
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 10:31 AM
Oct 2022

IIUC the OP is lodging a complaint about their/our tax money going to help the victims of climate change — & believes their own Social Security is insufficient for their own needs. I would instead direct their concerns & attention to GOP corruption (i.e. misappropriation of COVID relief funds by Trump & his admin) and to Congress’ ability to always magically find more money for defense contractors & the military.

Instead of blaming the victims.

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
48. I think Biden should make climate change adaption a priority
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 11:05 AM
Oct 2022

In the meantime, those with the means to do so ought to, IMHO, begin taking proactive steps.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
57. but there are degrees
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:16 PM
Oct 2022

it's not either/or. There are grey areas. There are some places people shouldn't put a home on.

the entire planet is not alike, some places are more dangerous than others.

Emile

(22,707 posts)
44. The hurricanes are more and more frequent and more powerful.
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 08:00 AM
Oct 2022

Yes the Midwest has tornadoes, but unlike hurricanes they rarely hit in the same place every few years. We can't afford to continue to throw tax payer money rebuilding bridges to sand bars because rich people want to get to their seaside mansions. Oceans are rising and Florida is sinking. The best thing we can do is stop doing the same thing over and over.

Johnny2X2X

(19,060 posts)
45. People shouldn't be living in areas that have weather
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 08:54 AM
Oct 2022

If you have weather of any kind, you need to move. But be careful, some areas you might move to also have weather.

Tongue in cheek of course. This area of FL hasn't been hit by a ton of hurricanes to make it unlivable, but the issue is that we know they're going to become more frequent due to global warming. And the problem is that half the politicians refuse to accept global warming so they can look at these storms as just freak events that might not happen again very soon.

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
51. I think OP is talking about climate and not weather. There's a difference
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 12:59 PM
Oct 2022

A definition of climate is the weather of a region averaged out over a 30 year time span.

Catastrophic climate change is where the climate of a region changed to such an extent that where it was once habitable, it is now a struggle to survive in.

Climate around the world is not uniform. We wouldn't have weather if it was. How climate change impacts one region may be quite different then another region. Some will become less suited for human habitation while others will become more suited for human habitation.

The key is to vacate areas that will be devastated by climate change and relocate, if not already there, to another area predicated by reputable experts to not see much change or one where habitability improves.

LeftInTX

(25,299 posts)
52. Seattle is at risk for earthquakes and tsunamis, not Mt Rainer
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 01:25 PM
Oct 2022

Unlike California's faults, Seattle also has a fault along a subductions zone. (Seattle has numerous faults and earthquakes are common) However, the subduction zone's impact was not discovered until 1996. It is estimated at an earthquake of a 9.0 magnitude earthquake struck the area at 9pm January, 26 1700. Evidence of the earthquake exists in destroyed forests.


About the Cascadia Subduction Zone (CSZ) Earthquake
A 9.0 magnitude Cascadia Subduction Zone (CSZ) earthquake ripping across the 700-mile CSZ fault line occurs on average once every 200 to 500 years.
The last major CSZ earthquake and tsunami occurred in 1700.
Recent subduction zone fault earthquakes around the world underscore the similar challenges we will face when the next CSZ earthquake and tsunami occurs in our region:
Indonesia (2004): M9.1; 228,000 deaths
Chile (2010): M8.8; 500 deaths
Northeast Japan (2011): M9.0; 18,000 deaths https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2022/06/14/cascadia-rising-earthquake-test/

https://seattle.fandom.com/wiki/Cascadia_Subduction_Zone


The Really Big One
An earthquake will destroy a sizable portion of the coastal Northwest. The question is when.


A century and a half elapsed before anyone had any inkling that the Pacific Northwest was not a quiet place but a place in a long period of quiet. It took another fifty years to uncover and interpret the region’s seismic history. Geology, as even geologists will tell you, is not normally the sexiest of disciplines; it hunkers down with earthly stuff while the glory accrues to the human and the cosmic—to genetics, neuroscience, physics. But, sooner or later, every field has its field day, and the discovery of the Cascadia subduction zone stands as one of the greatest scientific detective stories of our time.
https://archive.ph/5rCdk


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_subduction_zone


During low tide one day in March 1986, paleogeologist Brian Atwater dug along Neah Bay with a nejiri gama, a small hand hoe. Under a top layer of sand, he uncovered a distinct plant—arrowgrass—that had grown in a layer of marsh soil. This finding was evidence that the ground had suddenly sunk under sea level, causing saltwater to kill the vegetation. The event had happened so quickly that the top layer of sand sealed away the air, thus preserving centuries-old plants.[6]

In 1987, Atwater mounted another expedition paddling up the Copalis River with Dr. David Yamaguchi, who was then studying the eruptions of Mount St. Helens.[6] The pair happened upon a section of "ghost forest", so-called due to the dead, gray stumps left standing after a sudden inundation of salt water had killed them hundreds of years ago.[4] Originally thought to have died slowly due to a gradual rise in sea level,[1] closer inspection yielded a different story: the land plummeted up to two meters during an earthquake.[4] Having initially tested spruce using tree-ring dating, they found that the stumps were too rotted to count all the outer rings. However, upon having examined those of the western red cedar and comparing them to the living specimens meters away from the banks, they were able to approximate their year of death. There were rings up until the year 1699, indicating that the incident had occurred shortly thereafter. Root samples confirmed their conclusion, narrowing the time frame to the winter of 1699 to 1700.[3][6]

As with the arrowgrass site, the banks of the Copalis River are lined with a layer of marsh followed by a layer of sand. Jody Bourgeois and her team went on to demonstrate that the sand cover had originated with a tsunami surge rather than a storm surge.[4]

In 1995, an international team led by Alan Nelson of the USGS further corroborated these findings with 85 new samples from the rest of the Pacific Northwest. All along British Columbia, Washington State, and Oregon, the coast had fallen due to a violent earthquake and been covered by sand from the subsequent tsunami.[6]


Everyone is doomed!!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
54. that would be absurd
Mon Oct 3, 2022, 03:11 PM
Oct 2022

where to draw the line is the question. The rich should be on their own and buy insurance, or if they can't, be prepared to rebuild.

A volcano is an extreme case where clearly we would not allow building and would not enable anyone.

Living on a beach in a hurricane ally is different, same with tornado or earthquake areas - things happen but not certainly or so often. Flood plains - maybe another analysis.

All or nothing should not be the answer here, nor the presumed position of someone else.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»if you build on a volcano...