"most men can't really imagine equality"

[kpete]

[hlthe2b]

1. Works for me...

Kidding... (obviously)

[calimary]

71. No, seriously! Works for me, too!

Another good Quote of the Week!

[RKP5637]

2. Many men are assholes and can't think outta a paperbag with their thoughts, emotions

and empathy cast in cement from conditioning and life experiences. And, many are just the opposite.

[Ray Bruns]

46. The problem is most men have a direct connection between their penis and their brains.

[RKP5637]

50. Yes, absolutely!!! n/t

[ZonkerHarris]

64. My brain agrees with you, but my penis says "what's your point?"

[Ray Bruns]

65. Ha!!

[SouthernDem4ever]

68. LOL

[Scrivener7]

3. Wow. That is a great observation.

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Good point and applies to all power dynamics, imo...

Religious hierarchies, class-based hierarchies, racial hierarchies...basically any hierarchy as that inevitably creates The Other, with domination/oppression dynamics.

[RKP5637]

9. K&R!!! n/t

[scarletlib]

42. True.

This is why so many fear the rise of a black majority. They are thinking that they will be treated as a minority in the same way as when they were in charge.

[PunkinPi]

60. +1 nt

[Croney]

5. Yes...

[nature-lover]

12. Well said. This should be it's own post.

[3catwoman3]

24. I want a T-shirt with this on it!

Very well said - a powerful message in 9 succinct words.

[soldierant]

67. You're welcome

https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/When-you-re-accustomed-to-privilege-equality-feels-like-oppression-by-Einstein12345/103510327.FB110

[3catwoman3]

75. Thank you.

Lots to choose from - hoodies, short sleeves, long sleeves, tanks. Even a shower curtain!

It's cooling off in the greater Chicago area, so I think a hoodie, my favorite winter garb, is in my future.

[JudyM]

32. What nature-lover said.

[treestar]

45. IF that is true

How to we plan to approach them to convince them it will work out OK? If it really feels that way to them, how come their view is dismissed outright? How does that help?

[Mysterian]

6. I welcome our new female overlords

JFC, they couldn't fuck things up any worse than the males.

[nightwing1240]

48. What you said reminds me of George Carlin

who said, he wasnt sure if there was a god but if there is, it has to be a man because no woman would f@ck things up this bad. lol I still get a laugh from that one

[3catwoman3]

56. And there would likely be less war because those of us...

…who are mothers would not send our children off to kill other mothers’ children.

[Walleye]

7. How could they possibly imagine equality between the sexes, they've never seen it

You only have to look at the way Hillary was treated to know. Achieving anything like equality is impossible. I was more or less born a feminist in the baby boom and have tried to fight against unfairness all my life. And starting to feel as if my whole life has been for nothing. It’s not just in this country others do it even worse. But the sexism starts in the nursery.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. I get your point, but it is unimaginative at best to say that. I imagine many things I've never seen

I get the point and endorse the point that many men fear equality because losing privileges seems like inversion and oppression to the ones losing privilege, which is of course no bar against equality.

But I imagine many things I have not seen, such as equality of all people, and I act on things I have never seen, such as acting as if all people are equal until or unless they prove themselves undeserving of equality (such as crimes).

Every time someone starts up with the "oh so-and-so could not possibly imagine this something" it really grates. It's not you personally, because I presume that you mean people like those reflexively anti-Hillary.

However, you do premise your thesis on the false supposition that you have to see something to imagine it. It's as if were they to be shown equality they'd say "oh, okay" and pack up and go home. That they would not do so is a point that demolishes the thesis.

ALL PROGRESS IS DUE TO IMAGINATION

... due to imagining a better situation not yet visible, not yet seen, and acting to create it.

[Walleye]

16. No your point is correct. I'm feeling very jaded these days.

I’ve never had to live under the Iranian government but I can certainly imagine how horrific it is. Sometimes it is possible to imagine things but the mind won’t go there because it’s too painful

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Yup. Jadedness is a skirmish I fight with myself a little bit every day. . . . nt

[Chainfire]

8. I believe that it would be a better world if women had an equal share of wealth and power.

However, it would be unfair to ask them to clean up the messes that men have made through the millennia.

[soldierant]

69. Except that that is exactly what we have already been doing

throughout the millennia.

I for one would elcome the oppurtunity to clean up and put in place a system whicn would prevent, or even just lessen, the necessaity of having to do it AGAIN.

[milestogo]

10. They think it means "allowing" a woman to pick up the check once in a while.

[William Seger]

13. Same thing applies to racial equality

To them, "Black Lives Matter" means that White lives won't matter. Allowing immigrants means that they're going to be replaced. Their biggest fear is that if they become a minority, they will be treated the way they've always treated minorities.

[EYESORE 9001]

14. I was going to mention this

Good assessment of racist reactionary thinking.

[raccoon]

15. Everything to these idiots is a zero-sum game.

If somebody else wins, they lose.

[plimsoll]

17. It's why they scream "All Lives Matter" too.

When they see a BLM sign. They're reading "Black Lives Matter more than yours."

[treestar]

44. Interesting thought, they might be

People are people, and they love power. Merely belonging to a group that hasn't had it in a while does not mean it would not be enjoyed, and that where a minority is the majority, no one rises to power over others. Those people could be convinced, but just condemning them alone isn't going to do it.

[frogstar0]

18. Simple, both.

Both!

[jaxexpat]

20. There is an adage, "if men bore children the species would vanish".

An unprovable hypothesis, but a pertinent approach to any discussion about gender equality. I wonder if the "battle of the sexes" would solve itself if men were responsible for lactation.

[The Protagonist]

31. ??

Men do bear children. Trans Men are men after all.

I know you didn't do it intentionally, but please don't marginalize them.

[maxsolomon]

33. It's an ADAGE,

And it's not even true or provable - if that was the only way to perpetuate the species, at least SOME cis men would.

[Hekate]

40. Literal-mindedness will be the death of us

[grantcart]

54. Yes indeed but fortunately we have recent arrivals to assist the process.

[jaxexpat]

47. Am I being chastised?

I can assure you I meant no marginalization of anyone. But when can a subject be discussed using common terms without being placed on a suspect list by the thought police?

[The Protagonist]

52. I don't make the rules

https://www.democraticunderground.com/101312142

[Hekate]

55. All lives matter, eh?

[DashOneBravo]

59. To save from being alerted

“Don't interfere with forum moderationDon't post messages about site rules, enforcement, juries, hosts, administration, alerts, alerters, removed posts, appeals, locked threads, or anything else related to how this website is moderated (except in the Ask the Administrators forum).”

Why we have this rule: The purpose of Democratic Underground is to discuss politics, issues, and current events. Open discussion of how the website is run tends to distract from our core purpose.”

You are new and kinda on probation until you get to 100 posts. That’s the second time you’ve done that.

[The Protagonist]

63. I will consider myself on notice

Thank you for the admonition.

[DashOneBravo]

66. You are welcome

[niyad]

21. Exactly.

[ecstatic]

22. The word uprising can have negative connotations.

If it's framed in that way, I can see why the reaction would be mixed. I'd like to see this topic posed towards powerful men with more direct questions, like, "would you feel comfortable living in a society with 100% equality for women? If not, why not? What would be your concerns?"

I assume many of their concerns would be based on ignorance about what full equality means. I think we need to do a better job of explaining what equality means, but it's tricky because it might mean different things for different people. I don't think it's that we're trying to be on NFL football teams or invading all male spaces, we just want equal pay and consideration for jobs that we perform just as good or better than men. Yes, a lot of us are teachers or nurses, but many of us are excelling in scientific research, medicine, computer science, programming, engineering, finance, business leadership, politics, law, law enforcement and other traditionally male-dominated industries.

I want society to lose the expectation that women are responsible for taking care of everything household or child related. The expectation that if a couple has a child, the woman should sacrifice her career while the man continues to work and live as if nothing happened. If that's what a couple chooses to do, cool, but it shouldn't be the default expectation. Also, just as we don't get to dictate what men do with their bodies, nobody should be able to dictate what we do with our bodies. Carrying a pregnancy to term is a 100% personal decision that should not be dictated by other parties. These are a few of my personal takes, but others might have a different vision.

[obamanut2012]

23. Yup, same thing with all in Colonial leadership

They don't want those they have ruled to turn around and do the same to them.

[Warpy]

25. Men who only know how to be tyrants are getting what they deserve

in Kenya, as women who have had enough have taken their children and fled to Umoja and sister villages. The villages aren't paradise, they subsist on farming and herding and life is hard, but life was far harder with men who considered them his slaves. The women have done a good job at curbing FGM, for one thing, and the experiment in living without men who made it impossible to live with them has been going on for 32 years now.

Men who have a pathological fear of equality turning into subservience are finding themselves irrelevant, instead.

[LakeArenal]

26. Many men don't feel that way. I feel that needs to be said.

Mr Lake for one.

[kpete]

29. mr pete as well

some of us are lucky enough to know men who are enlightened.
kp

[LakeArenal]

30. Mr Lake used to say: PLEASE. Find a job where you make tons more money than me!!'

[Hekate]

57. Same in my household. Meritocracy comes up from time to time....

I see a fair amount of defensiveness in this thread, which a bit surprising.

What we (Mr. H and I) were discussing last night had to do with how we were both raised to believe that higher education was the key to a better life. We both grew up poor (in very different surroundings), but our parents believed in meritocracy with their whole hearts.

We were approaching the issue from a different perspective than the OP, but it’s relevant to the discussion at hand. That is, autocracy and tyranny are an absolute gift to the mediocre among us.

Why? Because it is not how much you know, but who you know. It’s not how hard you work, it’s who judges your work. Who lets you in the room. You don’t have to be intelligent, you have to know which palms to grease. Take Dubya. Take Trump.

So — let’s see the pie chart for 100% of the population. Automatically remove all the women from serious contention for the good life. That leaves 49% of the original number to compete with one another. Remove dark immigrants from that number. Remove Black Americans. Remove Latinos. Remove Asians. God knows, the Jews can’t come in. Remove non-conformists, those who don’t fit the mold. Use a tiny quota system so a few truly exceptional “Others” can get into Harvard, and congratulate yourself on how broad-minded you are.

Do you see the results? By the time all those “Others” are subtracted, the pool is much, much smaller than it was at first. Only white men compete against each other for a place in the sun. And really mediocre men, who now comprise a larger percentage of this reduced whole, have a great chance for success.

But to point this out is to threaten the beneficiaries of this system. Tremendous defensiveness ensues. And certainly, below the surface, is the fear that the only alternative to the (sometimes unconscious, often not) privilege and oppression described above is a reversal that puts them at the bottom and makes them suffer.

The lens with which people view the world is important. It’s vital to understand there are more ways than one to see things.







See: Anne Applebaum, “The Twilight of Democracy”

[nightwing1240]

49. I agree! Thank you!

Even at 9 years old I remember asking my dad why women had to wear something on their heads at church and men didnt? He said something I dont recall but it had nothing to do with my question. Either way, men or women should have always been treated equally, no exceptions. The same for various races etc. We all came in and will go out the same way, no one is ever better than someone else. Period!

[twodogsbarking]

27. I don't imagine any of what she describes.

[Iggo]

36. Well then none of it is true and it never happens.

Thanks for that.

[twodogsbarking]

37. That is not what I wrote. Thanks for that.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. That's definitely not true of my male friends...

...but I suppose one might argue that they aren't a representative sample.

[twodogsbarking]

38. Makes me wonder about the writer's objective.

Thanks for posting.

[Hekate]

41. The OP's objective was to make you look at the world in another way and consider it

[Marcuse]

34. Similar.

[maxsolomon]

35. the correct word is "many", not "most".

certainly, it's possible it's 50.00000000001% of men who can only imagine have the "existing power structure inverted".

and which men? globally? in the US? how does she know?

"Sally Kempton is nationally recognized as a master meditation and tantric philosophy teacher. A former Vedic swami, she has been teaching for nearly 40 years and is known for her practical insights into spiritual life, and for her powerful transmissions of meditative states."

[NJCher]

72. sounds like a very cool person

Thanks for checking her out and putting a little of her background here.

So is your question: based on this background, how would she know?

Just trying to clarify and I may have a response, based on what you tell me.

============

on edit: to others who find Kempton's thoughts interesting, put in "Sally Kempton" at youtube and you will find plenty of material.

[maxsolomon]

73. how would anyone know? it seems reductive.

since the majority of the people this middle-aged straight guy works with are women, including my direct manager, and multiple principals and partners, and I don't find it threatening in the least, in fact I like it, i'm not one of the people she's opining about.

i like to think things are getting better in some ways, but it appears i live in a bubble.

[Maru Kitteh]

79. Nope. Most is more than half. IT'S ACCURATE.

I believe most women know this. Knowledge born of not just experience, but reinforced continually, without cease by the culture we stagnate in.

[randr]

39. Many men are of that mindset, not most

Many women also have the same mind set, not most however.

[treestar]

43. so why try to speak for "most men."

Maybe Republicans see it that way. Why stretch it to "most?"

[leftstreet]

51. I think many are missing the point

The author of the meme quoted someone else, then reflected on the quote

Do people fear change in status quo because they're unaware of the experiences of the people seeking change, or are they very aware and fear some type of backlash?

It's a decent conversation

[The Jungle 1]

53. Old man here

I agree with the point that some men are afraid they will be treated the same way they have treated woman.
To go one step further these are the same men that are afraid that minorities will treat them the same way they have treated minorities.
They see the tree falling, they are running as fast as they can, but they are not moving. It is an roadrunner cartoon and would be funny except they are fucking with my friends and relatives.

[Hekate]

58. I think you've got it

[iemanja]

61. Not all men, the predictable response to any post like this

Only this time the OP doesn't say "all" (well, they never do), but instead "most." Yet even that is unacceptable, so we are told it is not "most" but "many." It's a way of showing their commitment to their own feelings above concerns about oppression. In so doing, they affirm the problem articulated in the OP.

[Silent3]

76. While it's certainly true that "not all men" types of responses often miss (or evade) the point...

...you seem to be saying that the only way to properly discuss issues of sexual inequality is to emphatically rule out phrases like "not all men" or "most men", as if any acknowledgment that men are not a monolithic wall of oppression is a danger to women's causes.

The author of the article is a woman. Do you consider her a too-weak or compromised ally because she let the word "most" slip out onto the page?

[iemanja]

77. You misunderstand my point

I wasn’t critiquing the OP but rather those men who make these discussions about themselves. In the process of doing so, they reveal that they see themselves as more important than the oppression referenced in OPs like this. It happens every single time.

[McKim]

62. Sometimes I Imagine.......

Sometimes I imagine a female ruled world with giant stadiums where fashion catwalks would display the latest fashions. Crowds would be cheering the latest from Paris, Milan, NYC and from everywhere. There would be baby and child rearing centers where you could have day care and classes on parenting. I imagine art centers in every neighborhood with art classes, theatre classes, craft classes for all ages. I imagine literary societies and clubs, more community centers and we could afford free education for all ages because we wouldn’t be spending the large part of our budget on military. We would have trade agreements and diplomatic agreements instead of war. Cultural exchanges between countries instead of wars. I imagined this as I went to two backyards today to rest and relax and was driven indoors by some jerks blaring a football game outdoors and I was forced to listen to it.

[Joinfortmill]

70. Very interesting indeed.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

74. We would be better off, I hope

men are cruel to each other and people they think are less then themselves.

Men like TFG and all the men who stood behind him and with him are the problem, Narrow and vain and ignorant and bragging bullshit artists who care little about anyone but themselves. Men like Brett Kavanaugh, sam alito and Clarence Thomas who are entitled to whatever they freakin want but really just need some justice for their asshollery.

[elias7]

78. I'm afraid of all people who categorize, simplify and lump groups of people together

In the dawning age of awareness of gender fluidity and race as a social construct, I imagine a world where we stop saying, “Men think this way…l and, “Women think this way…”; “Blacks believe this and Jews are like such and such…”

When dogmatic statements such as the OP come out, I feel that we are never getting anywhere as a species, no matter how we think we evolve.