Question about Texas no-license-needed-to-carry law.

[Baitball Blogger]

I could have some of this wrong, so feel free to correct.

As I understand it, a man without a license whipped out his gun to shoot at someone that was a valid threat, but he missed and hit a young girl, and the girl died. No charges were filed because everything was copacetic based on Texas law.

So, here's my scenario and question. Let's say that the parents in the car where the young girl was killed, also had a gun and felt threatened. Could they then go and shoot the first guy down? And wouldn't they also be within legal rights?

And if they are within the law, wouldn't other people who also were in the area who had guns, could they also shoot if they mistook the intention of the second gun shooting individual and felt threatened?

And, couldn't this go on ad infinitum?

[Kaleva]

1. Not sure what your scenerio has to do with no license to carry

That situation could happen even if there was still a law that required a license to conceal carry in Texas and everyone involved had a valid permit to carry.

[Baitball Blogger]

3. Because it really does sound like the wild, wild west.

At least people who were carrying guns without permits had a reason to show constraint.

[Kaleva]

5. But the same thing could happen if the people involved had permits

[AndyS]

10. It COULD have happened but it does happen 10-15% more often after passage

of easy carry laws.

Gunz is gud, rite?

[Kaleva]

13. Vermont doesn't require a permit to conceal carry a gun

What are your stats for Vermont?

[AndyS]

19. 2015: US over all 11/100k, Vermont 9/100k, Hawaii 3.4, MA 3.7 nt

[Kaleva]

21. Vermont has a homicide rate of 1.6 per 100 k

One of the lowest in the nation.

[thatdemguy]

16. cite please

[AndyS]

17. ..

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/fact-sheet-weak-gun-laws-are-driving-increases-in-violent-crime/

Don't even come back with 'what about this law'.

[thatdemguy]

22. If you dont count suicide

The numbers get more skewed in directions that dont make sense.
per [link:https://everystat.org/| which gets its numbers from everytown for gun safety.

Maryland has stricter gun laws than VA, but MD has 8.3 per 100k and VA has 4.5 and they are neighbors. DC has 15.5 and is between them with very strict gun control.

I dont think its so much how strict the gun laws are, I think it has to do with poverty. States with less poverty seem to have less murders. I dont have stats for that just looking at the stats from everytown for gun safety.

[AndyS]

27. Yeah, and suicides aren't dead.

Typical approach of a gun hugger. Suicides don't count. 1000 toddlers don't count because that's too small a number. Domestic homicides don't count because they are too small a % of the total (which include suicides).

Pick each special category and say it's not a part of the problem. Pretty soon there aren't any left to consider a problem to be concerned about.

School shootings are only _%, mass shootings are only _%, and so it goes. None of them count and aren't worth considering.

Just do a google search on "gun deaths in states with strict gun laws".

It's the guns. Poverty without guns, drugs without guns, domestic violence without guns, suicide without guns. It's the guns.

[thatdemguy]

31. first link from google

I googled "gun deaths in states with strict gun laws" First link to google seems to be a good one, as it ranks states by gun deaths from homicide and shows their score for "gun friendlyness"

its a lawyers office, no idea how they lean politically but they seem to use the CDC data for gun deaths, and some other site that does not exist when I try to go to their site.

https://www.criminalattorneycincinnati.com/comparing-gun-control-measures-to-gun-related-homicides-by-state/

I will continue to stand by my statement that states with less poverty have less gun murders. California overall is lower poverty, less murders, alabama lots of poverty more murders. Not all of it is poverty, same way not all of it is lax gun laws. Vermont, very gun friendly, low murders, also low poverty. Dc not gun friendly, high poverty high murders.

[AndyS]

33. And I stand by my statement that guns are the issue. Not poverty,

not mental health, not any other factor. All those things existed here through time and exist in other countries today but only we have this death rate by gun because only we have easy access to guns.

In what other comperable country can you buy, through legal channels, a gun in an average of 108 seconds (the time it takes to run an NICS check)?

[HAB911]

36. DITTO

[rubbersole]

2. Probably their intention from the start...

Texas is more fucked up than Florida. There. I said it.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

4. Yes

Self defense laws can go both way and both parties can be found justified. But this could happen anywhere regardless of the state's carry laws. One self defense claim doesn't negate another automatically.

[kelly1mm]

6. Are you asking as a hypothetical scenario of if anything close to that has happened in the 24 other

permit-less carry states? It seems we have enough of a track record with now 25 permit-less carry states to go beyond hypotheticals and look at actual data, don't you think?

[AndyS]

9. Yep, we have data.

Homicides go up 10-15% in the first two years after passage. More in states with stand your ground laws.

[kelly1mm]

11. How many of those were even remotely analogous to the scenario the OP posited?

Where someone withing their rights uses a firearm to stop an assailant, misses, hits a bystander in a passing car, that car stops and the bystanders parents come out blasting, misses the original shooter, hits other bystanders who then open fire and hit even more bystanders? I will wait for the links.

[AndyS]

18. Wait all ya want. "Link please" is a rouse to prevent thinking.

If I did provide links to suit your satisfaction then it would be some other minutiae about another sliver of gun violence.

The availability of guns is the single largest contributor to gun violence, period. Lax gun laws kill people. Open carry, concealed carry, 108 seconds for the average 'background' check.

It's a farce that kills and maims innocent people.

[kelly1mm]

24. So no link coming. Thought so. nt

[AndyS]

28. Go find your own damn link, I've spoon fed gunners for 40 years

and none of them have ever opened their eyes, just narrow the search to fit their pre determined opinions.

No acceptance of proof offered coming. Thought so. n our own t

[kelly1mm]

30. Your 'proof' was for something not argued. see bellow:

1) OP says something terrible will happen in TX because of X
2) I ask has something terrible like OP predicts happening in TX happened in any of the other state that have had X for YEARS now?
3) You (not OP) come in and say but when X happens Y happens
4) I say that is not what OP was implying, OP was saying something terrible will happen, not other thing Y. Do you have any evidence of terrible thing OP was saying actually happening
5) you say 'No, but so what? I want to talk about thing Y happening'
6 ) And I say I did not thing you would have a link
7) you somehow think this proves your point

Carry on with your bad self!

[AndyS]

32. Ah yes. Death and maiming is only a high school debate topic.

Yeah. Scoreing points in your own mind. Well I guess you win. Good on you.

Get back to me when guns reach into your life. Let me know what it's like to find a loved one who committed suicide or a friend stops a sucking chest wound on his daughter. I've only experienced the latter.

There is only one point: the easy availability of guns in this country killing innocent people.

Enjoy your victory and move to the head of your debating society.

[LeftInTX]

29. But the case above is not referring to a specific case.

The question was about permitless carry. Charges for murder remain the same whether there is permitless carry or not. Now you just can't be charge for carrying a handgun without a permit.

You are talking about stand your ground laws which are different than permitless carry.

[msongs]

7. I'm good with unl;censed gunners killng each other, but a little girl is a major crime nt

[thatdemguy]

8. no no and no

As I understand it, a man without a license whipped out his gun to shoot at someone that was a valid threat, but he missed and hit a young girl, and the girl died. No charges were filed because everything was copacetic based on Texas law.
No the shooter could and would be charged with manslaughter, the self defense only applies to the threat. They would be responsible for every bullet they fired

So, here's my scenario and question. Let's say that the parents in the car where the young girl was killed, also had a gun and felt threatened. Could they then go and shoot the first guy down? And wouldn't they also be within legal rights?
This is a fine line, if the first shooter started shooting at them intentionally, then yes they could. if the shooter was just a bad shot and hit the girl, NO. But most states self defense is defined as reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death. And your wording of "go and shoot the first guy down" is not self defense its calculated in my mind, so court would not go well for them. Yes you could try to go round and round on this but over all, no

And if they are within the law, wouldn't other people who also were in the area who had guns, could they also shoot if they mistook the intention of the second gun shooting individual and felt threatened?
see the above, again if the shooter is not targeting them, then no. There is allowances for protection of others, but in your situation it would be very hard to prove.

And, couldn't this go on ad infinitum?

[AndyS]

12. So,

" if the shooter is not targeting them, then no. There is allowances for protection of others, but in your situation it would be very hard to prove." Then a good guy with a gun is a myth?

How about a stand your ground state and the open carry guy intimidates a concealed carry guy so the cc guy is afraid of bodily harm and shoots the open carry guy? I mean, it's about what the cc guy THOUGHT might be a threat, right?

Fucking guns make people stupid beyond belief.

[thatdemguy]

15. see below

" if the shooter is not targeting them, then no. There is allowances for protection of others, but in your situation it would be very hard to prove." Then a good guy with a gun is a myth?
No its not a myth, but its also not black and white. If your sitting at a restaurant and someone comes in shooting everyone they see, then someone who stops them with another gun is a good guy with a gun. The "good" guy does not need to be targeted, thats where common sense comes in. Lets say you where the good guy, you would be fine in my example above. Now for another, you walk around the corner and see 2 people shooting at each other, no you cant be the good guy with the gun, as you dont know who the attacker is.

How about a stand your ground state and the open carry guy intimidates a concealed carry guy so the cc guy is afraid of bodily harm and shoots the open carry guy? I mean, it's about what the cc guy THOUGHT might be a threat, right?
Again NO, the possession of the open carried gun does not afford the CC guy to defend himself. Until a gun comes out of the holster its not more deadly than a phone on the belt. Even someone approaching you screaming I am am going to kill you, and they have a gun on their hip is not reasonable to most people. Until the gun or knife etc is pulled in pretty much every state you cant shoot. The CC would have to get the DA and or a jury to agree he was truely in fear for his life

Fucking guns make people stupid beyond belief.
Not disagreeing

Now to answer why I know this stuff, I have taken the class to get a permit in Maryland. The one thing that was said over and over again. You can only shoot if you have no other option and it has to be to stop an immediate threat. That applies even in stand your ground states. I have no idea if I will every get a handgun, let alone carry one. I just wanted to have that option for myself.

I am not progun, I am also not antigun anymore. Mostly due to what I have read on here. No I cant put my finger on what changed me.

[AndyS]

20. "Fucking guns make people stupid beyond belief. Not disagreeing"

We have common ground.

[Texasgal]

14. The no license to carry law

has very little to do with shooting people. We have other bullshit laws for that.

[spanone]

23. Tennessee...

Tennessee does not require a permit to carry a firearm, whether openly or concealed. If you want to carry a gun openly or concealed in public in Tennessee, you don't need a permit. As of July 1, 2021, Tennessee is a permit-less carry state.

Fuck the NRA & gov bill lee

[Kaleva]

25. Same with Vermont

[spanone]

26. Scary

[Kaleva]

35. Vermont has been that way for a long time. Maybe for a couple of hundred years.

[DemocraticPatriot]

34. I only hope that someone in Texas "feels threatened" by Gov. Greg Abbott...

Certainly some of his policies threaten the very lives of his constituents---

and morally, they would therefore be justified in using "deadly force" to protect their own lives...



It doesn't take a gun or a knife, to threaten people's lives.
Some men do it with a pen.