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Coventina

(27,121 posts)
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:03 PM Dec 2022

In a few days, thousands of US Citizens will be without any water supply. (And that's a good thing!

I'll try to be brief, but this is actually a decades long story.

To the north of Scottsdale, AZ, there are the McDowell mountains. They are completely arid, no groundwater, springs, rivers, or streams.

It is not part of the city of Scottsdale, it is an un-incorporated area. On purpose. They have, for decades, refused to incorporate themselves, or join the city of Scottsdale. They don't want "big gubmint" telling them what to do.

For decades, they have paid trucking companies to haul water from Scottsdale out to them. They have been getting Scottsdale treated and subsidized water without paying any Scottsdale city taxes.

For over a decade, Scottsdale has been warning them that they need to either join Scottsdale, or find another source of water. They have refused to do either. Dec. 31st, Scottsdale water taps will be closed to them. They are freaking out. "Gov't can't do this to us!!!"

What government? They've refused to have any!

They have done NO preparation.

Now they will find out the consequences of unregulated growth.

Good.

One out there is a horse breeder. How he's going to water those horses heaven only knows.

142 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In a few days, thousands of US Citizens will be without any water supply. (And that's a good thing! (Original Post) Coventina Dec 2022 OP
They want what the government provides, but they don't want to pay taxes. Aristus Dec 2022 #1
Sums it right up, Aristus. calimary Dec 2022 #106
They can moove to Texas Tetrachloride Dec 2022 #2
I just don't understand how stupid took over my country. lindysalsagal Dec 2022 #3
Me either and I keep trying, but failing. It's so discouraging. Biophilic Dec 2022 #12
It started RocRizzo55 Dec 2022 #95
Right. The moronic movie star who first made stupid seem acceptable. lindysalsagal Dec 2022 #105
Well said. bronxiteforever Dec 2022 #13
Not stupid. Selfishness and greed. I am surprised the city didn't pull the trigger on that sooner. Ray Bruns Dec 2022 #26
100% Agree! They should have stopped pampering them long before now. Shipwack Dec 2022 #101
Why did the state allow so much constriction in areas womanofthehills Dec 2022 #119
Ah, you have tapped in (pardon the pun) to soldierant Dec 2022 #123
been here quite awhile . trump brought it into the open AllaN01Bear Dec 2022 #34
Before the Trump years, I underestimated how much stupid there really is in America. GoodRaisin Dec 2022 #67
Social media lowered the barrier to entry for allowing the crazy to spread. NYC Liberal Dec 2022 #89
It Happened whilst we Liberals cactusdave Dec 2022 #92
Golly, what a shame for them ... Hugh_Lebowski Dec 2022 #4
This is what will probably happen. Although the trucking companies have warned Coventina Dec 2022 #5
Those poor wingnuts out there ... I hope their stupid cost them a FORTUNE ... Hugh_Lebowski Dec 2022 #24
How populated?? n/t Quakerfriend Dec 2022 #6
Approximately 5000 people. About 2000 households. Coventina Dec 2022 #9
Forgive my stupid question: How does someone live on trucked-in water? Does it go to some central allegorical oracle Dec 2022 #81
No, each home has a storage tank. Coventina Dec 2022 #85
Thanks for the reply. Clearly, this is not sustainable. Some party will have to yield. allegorical oracle Dec 2022 #113
Out in the west, lots of people have water storage tanks womanofthehills Dec 2022 #120
Oh that's interesting. I'm not on municipal water here in Fla., but my well pumps spring allegorical oracle Dec 2022 #140
Sounds like Scottsdale will count them as part of their federally mandated water consumption cut. roamer65 Dec 2022 #7
Yep. And those guys made it a really easy decision. nt Coventina Dec 2022 #8
Ah, libertarians orthoclad Dec 2022 #10
No - many of these subdivisions have a political mix womanofthehills Dec 2022 #121
Well, this particular place orthoclad Dec 2022 #131
Bootstraps. Start pulling fuckers. nt Hotler Dec 2022 #11
I thought Cave Creek and Carefree were what was North of Scottsdale EX500rider Dec 2022 #14
Carefree and Cave Creek are west of Rio Verde Foothills. StarryNite Dec 2022 #39
"Rio Verde"? And bone dry? soldierant Dec 2022 #125
Arizona? Traildogbob Dec 2022 #15
Reminds of one of my favorite movies that's on my see-again soon list! Abolishinist Dec 2022 #16
Yep, I live here. That's my exact reference not fooled Dec 2022 #94
MAGA Moochers. kairos12 Dec 2022 #17
I found this interesting, Abolishinist Dec 2022 #18
Lot's of development all around Phoenix. Can't be supported. Here's an archived copy erronis Dec 2022 #20
That's the one!! n/t Coventina Dec 2022 #21
Thanks for the link. Wow, those fuckwits have pools to exercise their horses. In the desert. SunSeeker Dec 2022 #59
I know! Abolishinist Dec 2022 #65
I've been following that story. How much value in a 'no water" home? BlueWaveNeverEnd Dec 2022 #19
Apparently quite a bit.... SergeStorms Dec 2022 #35
They are still building homes out there - huge homes womanofthehills Dec 2022 #118
interesting. Thank you. yes, laws need to stop building where no water. BlueWaveNeverEnd Dec 2022 #135
Found a couple articles on this BumRushDaShow Dec 2022 #22
It'll come to bloodshed before too long. SergeStorms Dec 2022 #37
Many of us from the east BumRushDaShow Dec 2022 #69
I saw this coming 40 years ago. SergeStorms Dec 2022 #71
Yes, markodochartaigh Dec 2022 #72
the courts will make the city of Scottsdale supply water to those that has been republianmushroom Dec 2022 #23
On what legal basis? n/t Coventina Dec 2022 #25
no legal bases, humanitarian bases, it is a crisis and they have been getting their republianmushroom Dec 2022 #27
Yes, you're right. StarryNite Dec 2022 #41
They have been warned for years and years and years that this was coming. Coventina Dec 2022 #48
That's cold! No family in the US should be without water womanofthehills Dec 2022 #122
See post 29. SergeStorms Dec 2022 #42
A Court TRO could change that. StarryNite Dec 2022 #45
I doubt it. SergeStorms Dec 2022 #53
You don't know what you don't know. StarryNite Dec 2022 #55
But the thing is, you DO know. The hauled water doesn't magically show up. Coventina Dec 2022 #56
I don't know... SergeStorms Dec 2022 #58
Oh I totally agree. I would leave this godforsaken place tomorrow if I could Coventina Dec 2022 #61
"I want to leave so bad!!!!" BumRushDaShow Dec 2022 #76
meh, rather have scorpions than poison ivy Kali Dec 2022 #107
... BumRushDaShow Dec 2022 #108
I know people who have lived StarryNite Dec 2022 #62
I know them too. My husband's best friend lives up there, so we go there a lot. Coventina Dec 2022 #64
Yeah, that would be good Bettie Dec 2022 #66
Yes it is a beautiful area. StarryNite Dec 2022 #99
I have to admit that I'm dumbfounded by the idea they couldn't know. Coventina Dec 2022 #102
Shower at the gym, wash your clothes at the laundromat... hunter Dec 2022 #128
They have been given warnings for YEARS AND YEARS!!! Coventina Dec 2022 #47
Scottsdale decides what to charge for the water the trucks are hauling questionseverything Dec 2022 #60
They are not allowed to charge the true cost of the water, Coventina Dec 2022 #63
Then Scottsdale water costs are being subsidized? Lasher Dec 2022 #98
Subsidized by the taxpayers of Scottsdale, yes. n/t Coventina Dec 2022 #100
Can you provide a link? questionseverything Dec 2022 #111
Gotta help the poor, destitute rich people, right? SunSeeker Dec 2022 #57
If the courts can do that, soldierant Dec 2022 #126
I doubt that. They may force the group to incorporate and implement grantcart Dec 2022 #80
Freedom! rubbersole Dec 2022 #28
I saw this story a while back on CBS mornings (video) Raine1967 Dec 2022 #29
VERY interesting... thanks! Abolishinist Dec 2022 #68
So the question is people or lettuce. The Jungle 1 Dec 2022 #79
Factory farm dairy is the worst. hunter Dec 2022 #83
Dairy farming is 100% socialism. The Jungle 1 Dec 2022 #116
I love that gag. Ray Bruns Dec 2022 #112
Steven Wright uses it in one of his bits The Jungle 1 Dec 2022 #115
There was a restaurant near where I live that had a can on the shelf Ray Bruns Dec 2022 #127
Yea, it is just plain funny. The Jungle 1 Dec 2022 #138
Thank you for sharing. ChazII Dec 2022 #82
Interesting . . . Evapotranspiration has greatly increased in the CO basin Strelnikov_ Dec 2022 #86
I feel bad for the children and animals. róisín_dubh Dec 2022 #30
To the east of Scottsdale is Fountain Hills, a very rich community. I had to go there some years panader0 Dec 2022 #31
This is going to be a tragedy because they are stupid, crazy phucks. Joinfortmill Dec 2022 #32
What a mess. And wildcat builders are building still more. halfulglas Dec 2022 #33
Scottsdale is still issuing building permits on a very large scale. StarryNite Dec 2022 #38
It's that "pioneer spirit". SergeStorms Dec 2022 #43
There are way too many people here. StarryNite Dec 2022 #46
They're building one in central New York as well. SergeStorms Dec 2022 #54
What kind of idiot has a horse farm that needs to have water trucked in? Coventina Dec 2022 #50
There is more to this situation. StarryNite Dec 2022 #36
Sounds like they didn't do their research or keep informed on their situation. Coventina Dec 2022 #49
The well they were on is still producing. StarryNite Dec 2022 #103
that 100 year water guarantee is pretty much bullshit anyway Kali Dec 2022 #110
Same thing in rural NM womanofthehills Dec 2022 #124
Unincorporated land puts them under the jurisdiction of the county. Sogo Dec 2022 #40
Arizona mulls piping in water from Mexico as Colorado River continues decline Sogo Dec 2022 #44
how can Scottsdale shut off the water if they aren't providing it? Takket Dec 2022 #51
Yes. The trucking companies will no longer be allowed to use Scottsdale's taps. n/t Coventina Dec 2022 #52
Why not just charge them a higher price for the water? oldsoftie Dec 2022 #91
See my post above, #63. Coventina Dec 2022 #93
Well thats ridiculous. I'm in GA. And some people I refer to bitch too oldsoftie Dec 2022 #133
Watch Season 3 of Goliath Karma13612 Dec 2022 #70
Shows that don't markodochartaigh Dec 2022 #74
There ya go! Karma13612 Dec 2022 #77
With only one season markodochartaigh Dec 2022 #84
Oh thank you! Karma13612 Dec 2022 #136
Terrific series. Liberal In Texas Dec 2022 #75
Ah! Did not know that. Karma13612 Dec 2022 #78
What network has Goliath? SouthernDem4ever Dec 2022 #90
It wasn't on regular TV Karma13612 Dec 2022 #137
They fear socialist water. Emile Dec 2022 #73
Building so many large cities in dry regions is never cstanleytech Dec 2022 #87
Arizonians may have to start designing waterless golf courses. halfulglas Dec 2022 #88
what about fire insurance not a texan Dec 2022 #96
"Planners" know how to get water for more subdivisions not fooled Dec 2022 #97
Mayor Lane said he had no intention of cutting off the water to RVF. StarryNite Dec 2022 #104
Mayor Jim Lane was a MAGAt of the highest order. Coventina Dec 2022 #109
What's great about this story is if those states don't find some kind of solution, Mother Nature wil Ray Bruns Dec 2022 #114
We started a petition 30 years ago to get city water Racygrandma Dec 2022 #117
How unfair and are the people who are truly paying the bills for the water that they get SWBTATTReg Dec 2022 #129
Gravy suckers. Fuck 'em. Time to "Pony Up." Evolve Dammit Dec 2022 #130
If the predictions for the Colorado River are accurate sarisataka Dec 2022 #132
The San Carlos Apache Tribe has contracted to provide water to these homes ripcord Dec 2022 #134
As a resident of a coastal town in SoCal, let me put forth the following. Abolishinist Dec 2022 #139
Even if they cut agriculture it shouldn't help the costal areas. ripcord Dec 2022 #142
Plenty of cactus in that area.... They're good. Chakaconcarne Dec 2022 #141

Aristus

(66,388 posts)
1. They want what the government provides, but they don't want to pay taxes.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:06 PM
Dec 2022

It’s all take and no give with these people. MAGAts are the biggest leaches in the country.

calimary

(81,321 posts)
106. Sums it right up, Aristus.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:44 PM
Dec 2022

It really IS “all take and no give with these people.”

“The Something-for-nothing crowd”. Very sorry to say I’ve forgotten who said that. Wish I could credit them by name.

Shipwack

(2,164 posts)
101. 100% Agree! They should have stopped pampering them long before now.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:12 PM
Dec 2022

I wonder if the unincorporated folks had allies in the town government that have only just gone away…?

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
119. Why did the state allow so much constriction in areas
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:37 PM
Dec 2022

With no water? Are their no state construction laws?

soldierant

(6,890 posts)
123. Ah, you have tapped in (pardon the pun) to
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 05:25 PM
Dec 2022

the philosophicl argument on whether morality is perceived through the intellect, or whether there is another faculty for it.

I feel (and it is a feeling - I can't explain it rationally) that it is perceived through the intellect, and therefore I am comfortable with calling them stupid.

But we are really saying the same thing at bottom.

GoodRaisin

(8,924 posts)
67. Before the Trump years, I underestimated how much stupid there really is in America.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:22 AM
Dec 2022

Since then, it just seems to be exploding at the seams of society every damn hour of each passing day.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
89. Social media lowered the barrier to entry for allowing the crazy to spread.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 12:07 PM
Dec 2022

Before the internet, nutjobs ranting about chips in vaccines or high-level politicians running child sex rings under pizza parlors would have been confined to a soapbox on the street corner. The only people who would hear their delusions would be people who happened to walk by, and even then only for a moment unless they stopped.

After the Internet came along, but before social media, you had to pay for a domain name and hosting, and then make a website. Then you had to somehow advertise it and get people to it. Which would still be hard. Google made that a bit easier, but even then you’d still mostly get people who were specifically searching for your conspiracy theory.

Social media (and YouTube) allows any nut to instantly reach millions or billions of people at no cost with zero effort. And then it spreads so fast that before long millions of people who never even went looking for conspiracy theories are reading about them.

It certainly doesn’t help that the media reports on it.

cactusdave

(11 posts)
92. It Happened whilst we Liberals
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:16 PM
Dec 2022

Just kept laughing at these little brains for being so stupid instead of taking what they were saying seriously. Many Liberals still don't take these dumb f_cks seriously.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
4. Golly, what a shame for them ...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:16 PM
Dec 2022
CT

They'll probably find someone to take their money and truck in water, but it ain't gonna be cheap!

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
5. This is what will probably happen. Although the trucking companies have warned
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:38 PM
Dec 2022

that the cost will at least double, probably triple or more what they are paying now.

On another subject: I got my husband one of those items you recommended a few weeks ago. Or, maybe I should say 'us'. Thanks for the recommendation!!

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
24. Those poor wingnuts out there ... I hope their stupid cost them a FORTUNE ...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 08:54 PM
Dec 2022

And ... glad to be of service. Remind me (in DM if appropriate) what I suggested again, I forget now lol ... I have a lot of favorite things

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
9. Approximately 5000 people. About 2000 households.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:50 PM
Dec 2022

Although, because it's unregulated, there isn't a lot of hard data.

allegorical oracle

(2,357 posts)
81. Forgive my stupid question: How does someone live on trucked-in water? Does it go to some central
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 09:50 AM
Dec 2022

reservoir and get pumped to homes? Two thousand households plus livestock would need an awful lot of water. It sounds risky -- apt to get polluted or else require high levels of chlorine.

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
120. Out in the west, lots of people have water storage tanks
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:52 PM
Dec 2022

A solar pump puts water from my well to a holding tank probably around a gallon or more a minute so I have a huge holding tank. People’s well pumps go out or their wells run dry and they can have water delivered or buy water from many town taps.

It’s happening out here in the middle of NM where a developer buys a huge ranch and starts a subdivision not connected to the closest town. The people who live in these subdivisions are not all Republicans. Most are moving to the west from NY & California but are not savvy when it comes to water.

allegorical oracle

(2,357 posts)
140. Oh that's interesting. I'm not on municipal water here in Fla., but my well pumps spring
Thu Dec 29, 2022, 02:31 PM
Dec 2022

water directly to my house's water line. Haven't needed a holding tank. My water comes from an underground aquifer that is recharged by rainfall. Thx for the education.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
7. Sounds like Scottsdale will count them as part of their federally mandated water consumption cut.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 07:46 PM
Dec 2022

Am I right?

I read severe cuts are coming for anyone using water from the Colorado River aquifer.

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
121. No - many of these subdivisions have a political mix
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:58 PM
Dec 2022

People moving from cities to big houses in the desert - people who never thought about where their water was coming from. We have a big gated community south of us - probably half Dems and half Republicans.

orthoclad

(2,910 posts)
131. Well, this particular place
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 07:18 PM
Dec 2022

sounds mainly liberto of the money kind, from the description in the article. There's something inherently libertarian about thinking that money trumps nature.

But yes, many people just don't think of the basics (and real estate agents discourage thinking). The water cistern should be a dead giveaway, tho. I have a place in a waterless holler, dry holes, cisterns at homes, rain barrels: experience, but at least it rains there.

First thing i thought when I saw S. Cali: this is a desert. What's with all the lawns? You call THIS a forest? It's frightening how many million people are totally dependent on major far-off-site water engineering.

ah, bear with me, I'm a water geek.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
14. I thought Cave Creek and Carefree were what was North of Scottsdale
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 08:11 PM
Dec 2022

That and Black mountain.

I used to live up in the Tonto Hills on the road to Bartlett Lake.

I also lived on a horse ranch I believe it was called the Lazy B, it was on the southwest corner of Carefree highway and North cave Creek road, that was back in the mid-80s looking on Google street view now it appears to be all Walmarts and strip stores.

Traildogbob

(8,756 posts)
15. Arizona?
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 08:19 PM
Dec 2022

Isn’t that where Kari Lake would have fixed that problem as Governor? Still possible she could be appointed and get this all fixed, right?

not fooled

(5,801 posts)
94. Yep, I live here. That's my exact reference
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:29 PM
Dec 2022

It's Chinatown, except with goobers.



Packing to move this spring; can't take the dumb anymore.

erronis

(15,303 posts)
20. Lot's of development all around Phoenix. Can't be supported. Here's an archived copy
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 08:39 PM
Dec 2022
https://archive.vn/gk0Z5

I used to work in Deer Valley and hike in Tonto, Superstitions. Totally overgrown and deadly.

Abolishinist

(1,301 posts)
65. I know!
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 12:09 AM
Dec 2022

I mean, this comment kinda sorta says it all...

“I am so sorry for your, well, trouble, but it has nothing to do with us,” one neighbor replied to an accusation. “The pool is to swim the horses.”

Talk about being removed from reality!

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
35. Apparently quite a bit....
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:33 PM
Dec 2022

according to the article. They're selling 1,800 sq.ft. homes for $600,000 with no guarantee of water! These people don't believe the county government would let them go without water and will do something to rectify the situation.

Fools and their money.......

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
118. They are still building homes out there - huge homes
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:35 PM
Dec 2022

It’s a state problem too. Laws are needed to stop new construction where there is little or no water.

The area where I live in the NM high desert only allows one home and guest home on 40 acres to conserve water. Luckily, we all have great wells with good water. Some people in the article drilled 900 feet to no water.
I got great water at 160 feet.

There is water for sale in the nearest town - people come and fill up water holding tanks.


SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
37. It'll come to bloodshed before too long.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:39 PM
Dec 2022

You can count on it (figuratively, not you personally, BumRushDaShow).

Water is the most valuable resource in the area, and people have gone to war for far less.

BumRushDaShow

(129,096 posts)
69. Many of us from the east
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 05:39 AM
Dec 2022

have no idea how dire it is out west. I remember going to Colorado for a couple week work training session almost 40 years ago and discovering the state had "water rights" and that something as benign and "environmentally friendly" as capturing rain water (including in rain barrels) was illegal because that was diverting it from the ground.

I just know that those of us on the east coast were and still are perennially insulted and tarred and feathered as being "the Rust Belt", thanks to a decades-long massive P.R. push for people to "leave the east and go west and south" - and particularly to places that could not support that mass population migration in terms of water availability. There is a reason why a place is called a "desert". It's not just a cutesy term describing a different kind of living experience.

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
71. I saw this coming 40 years ago.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 06:36 AM
Dec 2022

We live on the shores of Lake Ontario, and around a campfire one night the discussion came up about jobs/people leaving New York for warmer climates. I told everyone that they'll all come back someday because of one thing: Water.

It didn't take a genius to see that coming (after all, I saw the writing on the wall, right?) and often told my daughter when she was young, that water would become more precious than gold one day. I tried to steer her toward a college degree in hydrological science, but she had to go get a degree in social sciences, working for a non-profit agency helping low income people find housing, medical services, jobs etc. I couldn't be more proud of the person she's become. 😊

The desert southwest, as beautiful and peaceful as it is, can only support so many people and animals, and we pushed well past that number decades ago. Greedy developers keep bullshitting people, selling the old-west from the turn of the 20th century, but with 21st century problems no one wants to admit to.

There's no easy answer. There might not be an answer at all. Take care, BumRushDaShow.

markodochartaigh

(1,138 posts)
72. Yes,
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:41 AM
Dec 2022

Tom Selleck had to pay fines when he was caught getting water from fire hydrants to water his avocado orchard. Apparently he is more libertarian leaning than maga leaning from what you read online.

republianmushroom

(13,616 posts)
23. the courts will make the city of Scottsdale supply water to those that has been
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 08:54 PM
Dec 2022

getting water from Scottsdale.

republianmushroom

(13,616 posts)
27. no legal bases, humanitarian bases, it is a crisis and they have been getting their
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 09:21 PM
Dec 2022

water there for years.

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
41. Yes, you're right.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:48 PM
Dec 2022

There are a lot of innocent people living in that area. EPCOR the largest private water company in Arizona is working on providing water for the area but it will take 2-3 years to get it up and running. They need water in the interim. Scottsdale Mayor Ortega is refusing. There is way more to this story.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
48. They have been warned for years and years and years that this was coming.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:04 PM
Dec 2022

They did fuck all about it.

Too bad.

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
122. That's cold! No family in the US should be without water
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 05:13 PM
Dec 2022

Maybe you should be mad with the sleazy politicians who let their contractor buddies build subdivisions where there is little water. Nothing is black
& white!

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
42. See post 29.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:50 PM
Dec 2022

Scottsdale will not continue to supply water on a humanitarian or any other basis. They're either going to have to find another supply, or literally dry up and blow away.

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
53. I doubt it.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:30 PM
Dec 2022

Caveat emptor seems to be one of the few building laws they abide by. People are buying houses in these wildcat developments with the understanding that they have no legal water rights.
What the hell are these people thinking of?
"Let's go retire in a 🏜 desert where there's no water. We'll be fine."

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
55. You don't know what you don't know.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:36 PM
Dec 2022

The builders and realtors certainly aren’t telling them. New homes on hauled water are still going up. I know a woman whose family bought there just a few years ago. They chose a home on hauled water because people have been hauling water there without issue for decades. They were concerned a well could go dry.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
56. But the thing is, you DO know. The hauled water doesn't magically show up.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:39 PM
Dec 2022

You have to contract with the trucking company on the amount and deliveries. You often have partnerships with other residents about scheduling, payment, etc. because most deliveries involve more than one household.

This all has to be done by the homeowner in this situation. They have no way of being ignorant of what has been discussed for more than 10 years.

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
58. I don't know...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:47 PM
Dec 2022

if people are doing enough research into the future cost and availability of hauled water. They might ask around about present costs and think it's doable, but 5-10 years from now when they're paying triple (or more) the cost - if it's at all available - might be a different story.

My opinion only, but people aren't awfully bright moving to the desert southwest, especially with climate change (something they probably don't believe) changing the whole picture.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
61. Oh I totally agree. I would leave this godforsaken place tomorrow if I could
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:49 PM
Dec 2022

afford to relocate.

My family has been here since 1911, and that's long enough.
I want to leave so bad!!!!

BumRushDaShow

(129,096 posts)
76. "I want to leave so bad!!!!"
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 09:11 AM
Dec 2022

As a longtime gardener who had been looking at trying some bougainvillea in pots and reading about the landscaping and environment in AZ as that is a popular plant grown there, I discovered that many there have to deal with these -



This is the kind of stuff they don't tell (out-of-state) people about!!!!

(and they're not like a regular "pest" that can be sprayed away)

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
62. I know people who have lived
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:53 PM
Dec 2022

in that area. I know some who still do. They would never have moved there had they known what was was coming up. I also know a horse rancher who inherited the ranch from his parents who lived there for decades. You have to realize things change. When it comes to water issues here in Arizona things are changing at a much faster pace than ever.

Too many people. Too many straws in the aquifer during a drought.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
64. I know them too. My husband's best friend lives up there, so we go there a lot.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:56 PM
Dec 2022

It's beautiful.

However this water issue has bee discussed constantly, because my hub's friend is one that has never had any other source than the trucked water.


All the thirsty chickens are coming home to roost.

The first thing Hobbs needs to do as Gov. is shut down the Saudi water giveaway.

Bettie

(16,110 posts)
66. Yeah, that would be good
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 12:37 AM
Dec 2022

I wonder how they are going to have enough water for that chip plant. Seems short sighted to put it in a state where there is a very real water crisis.

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
99. Yes it is a beautiful area.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:57 PM
Dec 2022

The people I know who just moved out of the area in August could stand in their front yard and see Four Peaks, Weaver's Needle, and the Superstitions. They had an amazing view. However, neither they nor their other neighbors on the shared 5 house well knew of the water issue that was brewing until Nov 2021. There are a lot of good people out there that had no idea and certainly don't deserve to lose their water source. I worry about what might happen to all of the horses and other livestock too.

Yes, Hobbs needs to get on that. She said she would tackle the water issues, I hope she does.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
102. I have to admit that I'm dumbfounded by the idea they couldn't know.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:16 PM
Dec 2022

My husband's friend has been talking about it since they became friends over 20 years ago.

The friend is not a MAGAt either. He went there because he's a total gear head and wanted to have a property that he could work on cars in various states of repair, build structures for working on cars, and not be bothered by such things as codes and permits. He can rev an engine at 2 am and no one is around to complain about it.

Anyway, back to the water issue.....like I said, this guy has been aware of it, but has taken no action. Just talked and worried about it for 20+ years.

His current "plan" is to take water from his place of work in his van each day.

hunter

(38,317 posts)
128. Shower at the gym, wash your clothes at the laundromat...
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 06:15 PM
Dec 2022

... the only water you need at home is for drinking, cooking, and hand washing.

I've lived like that.

Forty years ago, when I was single...

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
47. They have been given warnings for YEARS AND YEARS!!!
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:03 PM
Dec 2022

No more sucking off other people who are actually paying for the services.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
60. Scottsdale decides what to charge for the water the trucks are hauling
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:49 PM
Dec 2022

If the city isn’t changing enough, how is that anyone’s fault but the city?

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
63. They are not allowed to charge the true cost of the water,
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:53 PM
Dec 2022

If I'm understanding the legalities correctly.

As a utility, they have to charge every customer the same.
It works well when the system is supported by the taxpayers of the city being served.
However, this other community was not paying ANY taxes and getting the same water.
All they paid in addition was the transport costs.

That's what my understanding is from the articles I've read and people I've spoken with.

SunSeeker

(51,572 posts)
57. Gotta help the poor, destitute rich people, right?
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:45 PM
Dec 2022

Last edited Wed Dec 28, 2022, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Kinda like here in CA, where we spend millions adding sand to the beach to protect rich people's beach front mansions, but not a dime for homes with holes in the roof in the barrio.

Do you really think Scottsdale will give them water for their pools where they "swim the horses"?

“I am so sorry for your, well, trouble, but it has nothing to do with us,” one neighbor replied to an accusation. “The pool is to swim the horses.”
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-southwest/the-water-wars-come-to-the-suburbs

soldierant

(6,890 posts)
126. If the courts can do that,
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 05:45 PM
Dec 2022

then they can (and should) require the area to be annexed by the city. (assuming the city will have them)

Abolishinist

(1,301 posts)
68. VERY interesting... thanks!
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:33 AM
Dec 2022

The person in charge of Arizona's water resources seems adamant about not allowing any way around this, and based on what little I know about this I tend to agree with him. Although, and I live in California, I do have a problem with the amount of water given first and foremost to the so-called "farmers", which I believe is in excess of 70-80% of the total.

Chinatown part deux.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
79. So the question is people or lettuce.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 09:30 AM
Dec 2022

Farming in the west is NOT sustainable. It will have to stop.
There is enough water for people but not farming.
Lettuce is 95% water. Then we put it in trucks and ship it to the east. Contrary to what the farmer in this piece says we can grow lettuce in the east. Up and down the entire east coast we can grow lettuce. We do not have to grow lettuce in Minnesota. I live in eastern Pa and I have water within ten feet of the top of my well year around. This time of year the aquifer is popping out of the ground all over my property. There are farms all over my community that are no longer being farmed. However with 52,000 farms and 7.3 million acres of farmland, agriculture is a big business in Pennsylvania.
In California only 15% of the land is farmland. 25% in Pa.

Almonds use 1-3 gallons of water PER almond! That is a crazy waste of water when you don't have enough water for people. Bulldoze the almond trees and plant them somewhere else.

I got a can of dehydrated water for Christmas. Maybe the west could use some of that. Every drop of water on this earth has already been through a dinosaurs bladder. We have the same amount of water we always had. The same amount as when the earth was formed.

You still can't convince people that climate change is real!!!

hunter

(38,317 posts)
83. Factory farm dairy is the worst.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 10:12 AM
Dec 2022

But that's a sacred industry in the U.S.A., "for the children," or something, even though it's not all great for the kids, and certainly not the cows, not here or in Saudi Arabia, where some of this Arizona cow food is exported to.

If we are looking for something to bulldoze, I'd start with the lower density suburbs, big box stores, parking lots, freeways, all of it. But that's just me. The people with the smallest environmental footprints generally live in cities and don't own cars.



 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
116. Dairy farming is 100% socialism.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:15 PM
Dec 2022

Total price fixing. Food production in America is mostly socialism.
I don't have any problem with socialism it is just that the right always screams about the freedom loving farmers.

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
86. Interesting . . . Evapotranspiration has greatly increased in the CO basin
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 10:44 AM
Dec 2022

First I had heard of that. Need to do some reading RE

panader0

(25,816 posts)
31. To the east of Scottsdale is Fountain Hills, a very rich community. I had to go there some years
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 09:33 PM
Dec 2022

ago with my kid's science fair. In the center of town is a giant fountain, spraying over
100 ft high ever 15 minutes. The little lake is surrounded by expensive cafes with dozens
of Mercedes and higher cars. In the fuckin' desert. I spent a small fortune on my three kids
lunch.
https://www.experiencefountainhills.org/p/fountain/fountain-runtimes

PS--Lake Mead is at it's lowest ever level. Farmers and ranchers are seeing water rations.

halfulglas

(1,654 posts)
33. What a mess. And wildcat builders are building still more.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 09:45 PM
Dec 2022

These smart, fairly well off home buyers for the sake of not being in a taxing district are gambling that their city neighbors won't let them go without any water. Well, wait until the city's share of the Colorado River water is less and less and less. You bet they're going to cut them off when it comes to not enough water for them, the people supporting the water treatment plants through their taxes. They are certainly not eager to share the Colorado River water to fill their swimming pools. Many of them already resent the allotment to the tribes who were there originally and know how not to waste water.

The Southwest is spectacular but it was never meant to support this many people AND grow the amount of agriculture that they do. While visiting my brother in Pheonix in the late 1980s I marveled even then the modest subdevelopment he was living in had little natural desert vegetation, almost everybody had plantings in their yards that were not native to the area and required watering. There was a large industrial farm just next to the subdevelopment with those mechanized waterers several times a day with subsequent visible loss of some of the water to evaporation. You could see some erosion of soil near some of the streets caused by nothing to hold the water and the soil together when the rains did come. This was 30 years ago and the boom has increased.

Trouble ahead. Horses drink a lot of water.

SergeStorms

(19,201 posts)
54. They're building one in central New York as well.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:36 PM
Dec 2022

Of course Lake Ontario, Owasco Lake and other Finger Lakes are within a few miles of the plant they're building here. New York has more fresh water than we'll ever to be able to use.

Feast or famine as far as water goes I guess. It must have been a purely political move building a chip plant in Arizona (but what isn't political these days).

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
50. What kind of idiot has a horse farm that needs to have water trucked in?
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:14 PM
Dec 2022

I feel very sincere worry for those hapless horses.
They didn't choose this.

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
36. There is more to this situation.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:34 PM
Dec 2022

For one thing there are a lot of homes out there with wells. With the drought some of the wells are now underproducing so hauled water is becoming necessary to supplement when it hadn't been in the past.

The other big issue are the "wildcat" subdivisions. They allow for builders/developers to build up to 5 homes in a subdivision without having to guarantee water for 100 years. The builders/developers often sell homes with wells or shared wells. They also sell homes as hauled water homes. They are not informing buyers of what's going on with the water situation. The buyers are being told the home is a hauled water home but not being told Scottsdale is turning off the water on the 1st. The wildcat subdivisions are still being built. Maricopa County is still issuing building permits because due to state laws they cannot refuse permits to builders due to lack of water. The state has created a big part of this problem and it's not just in this particular area.

I know a family who moved from that area in August. They were on a producing shared well with 4 other homes. During the time they were there nothing was ever said about Scottsdale wanting to annex the area. They would have been very happy being annexed. They didn't move there to avoid city taxes. They moved there because they wanted a little more land than what you get in a typical housing development. And it's a beautiful area and a great place to raise a family. So please don't make it appear that everybody out there moved there to avoid "big gubmint" because that's just not the case. By the way, this family moved for other reasons having nothing to do with the water situation.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
49. Sounds like they didn't do their research or keep informed on their situation.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:09 PM
Dec 2022

Glad they got out before they lost everything.

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
103. The well they were on is still producing.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:18 PM
Dec 2022

It just depends where the "straw" goes into the aquifer. They didn't move due to the water issue.



Kali

(55,014 posts)
110. that 100 year water guarantee is pretty much bullshit anyway
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 03:18 PM
Dec 2022

there are lots of places that have to haul water. it can actually make you MORE careful and less wasteful than somebody that has all they can demand super cheap from a tap.

womanofthehills

(8,718 posts)
124. Same thing in rural NM
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 05:31 PM
Dec 2022

Huge gated community sub division south of me. Water is not good like the area I live in. It’s gypsum water. To get around the laws of one house on 40 acres, they put the houses closer - on 20 acres but half the subdivision free space for all. So, they put 2 houses on one well.

Next come all the innocent NY and California transplants and they buy these expensive houses with no questions about the water.

Sogo

(4,986 posts)
40. Unincorporated land puts them under the jurisdiction of the county.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:44 PM
Dec 2022

What will the county government do about the situation?

No one is not under "gubmint" authority....

Takket

(21,577 posts)
51. how can Scottsdale shut off the water if they aren't providing it?
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:20 PM
Dec 2022

are they forbidding the trucking companies from filling up under new water restrictions?

oldsoftie

(12,555 posts)
91. Why not just charge them a higher price for the water?
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:15 PM
Dec 2022

My city supplies water to unincorporated areas & they dont pay city taxes. But they pay more for the water.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
93. See my post above, #63.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:21 PM
Dec 2022

Are you in AZ?

I believe AZ law forbids this.

That's my understanding from reading about this story.

oldsoftie

(12,555 posts)
133. Well thats ridiculous. I'm in GA. And some people I refer to bitch too
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 07:36 PM
Dec 2022

Every now and then someone will write a letter to the paper or post on the City FB page abut "its not fair that we pay more than city residents for the same water". And the City will respond that they will be glad to annex the area & lower the water rates.

Karma13612

(4,552 posts)
70. Watch Season 3 of Goliath
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 06:23 AM
Dec 2022

Starting Billy Bob Thornton.

It’s all about water rights, access to it, corruption, etc.

Actually, the entire 4 Seasons are just amazing. In each season, there are some VERY uncomfortable scenes and concepts that can make you cringe. But, they are really well done.

Only sorry it didn’t last longer. Like access to water…..

markodochartaigh

(1,138 posts)
74. Shows that don't
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:50 AM
Dec 2022

sugar coat the truth tend to not last very long. "Incorporated" was a great series on the syfy channel which portrayed a future in which corporate capture of society had become complete. It only lasted for one season.

Karma13612

(4,552 posts)
137. It wasn't on regular TV
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 11:38 PM
Dec 2022

It was on a streaming service-can’t recall which one. If you google it, I’m sure it will give you the deets. Enjoy!

not a texan

(39 posts)
96. what about fire insurance
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:39 PM
Dec 2022

How much is fire insurance if you have to truck water to put out a house fire. I know they would tap the water tank at the house but how fast can you pump that out to fight the fire? I am willing to bet that these people are not paying the true cost of their insurance. Hope they don't complain about other disaster prone areas. Also if they are not part of the city, who fights their fire, the county?

not fooled

(5,801 posts)
97. "Planners" know how to get water for more subdivisions
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 01:39 PM
Dec 2022

up to a point--reduce water use among existing residents. Works for a while. Not really applicable to the Rio Verde situation but in general that's what's going on in e.g. Las Vegas--make the existing water go farther by charging more, getting rid of lawns, etc. Also, ag uses more water per acre than residential, so by converting farmland to houses less water is used.

I put "planners" in quotes because having seen the untalented lot that's approving paving over armpit town yuma (where I'm stuck for now) with a dingy, drab agglomeration of ugly, cheaply built houses and haphazardly located commercial properties, there isn't much higher-level thinking going into the "planning." Also, they are facilitating a smash-and-grab on the aquifer, which means those with wells eventually will be forced into expensive privatized water systems. I'm moving out--can't take the stupid anymore.

StarryNite

(9,446 posts)
104. Mayor Lane said he had no intention of cutting off the water to RVF.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:23 PM
Dec 2022

Mayor Ortega is the Grinch.

I just came across this...very interesting. Mayor Lane had no intention of cutting off the water.

Truth of the City of Scottsdale Meeting: (2018)

• The City of Scottsdale has never threatened to cut off our water supply


• The City of Scottsdale made improvements to the Pima/Jomax location to handle the increased traffic at that location. COS assesses a "use fee" at that location which was amortized over 100 years.


• Mayor Lane stated he was familiar with the circumstances of New River and responded “You are not New River, we have no plans or intentions of shutting you off”.


• Mayor Lane stated the city of Scottsdale will continue to be good neighbors to Rio Verde Foothills area and supply water to us as long as the City of Scottsdale has the water supply (they are currently only using 60% of their current allocation).


• The current process with the haulers is working, i.e., the haulers charge a price acceptable to customers at this time. Any change to this arrangement will raise the cost to customers, as another layer will be added to the cost.

[link:https://sites.google.com/site/waterfactsrioverdearizona/|

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
109. Mayor Jim Lane was a MAGAt of the highest order.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 03:02 PM
Dec 2022

He was term limited out of office, thank goodness.

Ortega is a Democrat, and I voted for him enthusiastically and support him 100%

Ray Bruns

(4,098 posts)
114. What's great about this story is if those states don't find some kind of solution, Mother Nature wil
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 03:36 PM
Dec 2022

will make the decision for them.

Racygrandma

(109 posts)
117. We started a petition 30 years ago to get city water
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:19 PM
Dec 2022

because our well water was polluted. So the city laid water lines and I got a water meter for christmas from my mother. I was glad to get city water. I am happy to pay the water bill. Here it is never very high. My daughter in florida has a high water bill. But that ground water does get polluted from industry and farming chemicals.

SWBTATTReg

(22,133 posts)
129. How unfair and are the people who are truly paying the bills for the water that they get
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 06:17 PM
Dec 2022

let those who get water w/o paying their fair share? Not fair, and if I were a tax paying citizen/water paying citizen, I would be livid and mad at those allowing others to skirt by. In STLMO, we do have a water sharing situation, since the city does have the infrastructure to treat and deliver water (we're very lucky) and the surrounding cities that use our city water do pay for it.

My best to all of those in the West, water has been and always will be a big issue.

sarisataka

(18,663 posts)
132. If the predictions for the Colorado River are accurate
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 07:33 PM
Dec 2022

Scottsdale itself may be looking for additional water in a year or two

ripcord

(5,409 posts)
134. The San Carlos Apache Tribe has contracted to provide water to these homes
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:22 PM
Dec 2022

Proving once again that Native Americans are better people. If we are going to attack people who built without an adequate water supply you should make sure to include the idiots in Los Angeles and other coastal cities in California for their irresponsibility.

Abolishinist

(1,301 posts)
139. As a resident of a coastal town in SoCal, let me put forth the following.
Thu Dec 29, 2022, 02:11 PM
Dec 2022

80% of our water goes to agri-business for growing water-intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa.

We produce 80% of the world's supply of almonds, 70% of which are exported. By my calculation, even allowing one gallon of water per almond, which seems to be on the low side, we are 'shipping' enough water out of the country to supply 7.5 million households. If nothing else, we need a higher export tax on almonds to be aside for other means of producing water. In Carlsbad, we have a desalination plant that provides San Diego with 50 million gallons per day, enough for 10% of our population.

Saudi Arabia has a law that prohibits the growth of alfalfa because of the lack of water. That’s no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies. Saudi Arabia also imports hay from drought-stricken New Mexico for the same purpose. This should not be possible, but no action has been taken to stop it.

ripcord

(5,409 posts)
142. Even if they cut agriculture it shouldn't help the costal areas.
Thu Dec 29, 2022, 08:19 PM
Dec 2022

It isn't their water, they have over-developed far beyond what anyone with any common sense would allow. They don't deserve water from anyplace else, they need to get by on the Colorado River and what they steal from the Owen's Valley.

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