I have an admission and a request.

[AndyS]

Last edited Tue Feb 14, 2023, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

I take pictures and I write about gun violence. It's all I do. Gun violence is an anguish inducing and painful topic for me. Many have made me acutely aware of how difficult a struggle it is to reduce this carnage. I've long since given up on preventing it, I'd be happy to simply see it diminish a bit.

I watched Sandy Hook unveil on live TV with a 4 year old grandchild in my lap and two others in class a block away. I did the same with Parkland. Uvalde was on my TV in real time. I saw it all. My nephew died by gun suicide. A friend's daughter attempted the same. I've had a gun pointed at me. More than once. This is a personal thing to me and I'm not entirely rational about it.

That was the admission.

Now for the request.

For those who feel like responding to my posts with what may seem like a pragmatic outlook that nothing will ever be done, that nothing will ever change, that I should just accept it and go on with life I would ask two things; consider looking a survivor in the eyes as you compose your words. How would those comments be received by a parent of Sandy Hook or Parkland or Uvalde or one of the hundreds of other schools where shootings have ended promising lives as they just began? How would it make them feel to be told all is in vane and those deaths will never lead to anything redeeming? Choose your words carefully.

The second thing I'd ask is for you to take the advice of your mother. If you can't say something nice and supportive just STFU.

[gay texan]

1. that earned a heart. N/t

[Maraya1969]

2. It makes me nuts when people are all "Nothing will work".

We will see change.

We need to call it "Gun Safety" instead of regulation.

[hydrolastic]

7. In my red union shop the gun nuts are rampant

I have to say that the idea that there would be any change without the real problem dealt with. "The second amendment"! I tell the guys that "its an amendment, it can be amended !" its the only way cause they just take it to the limit. We are all dealing with it. Unless told to give up the guns we will only get what we currently have. Thinking the gun nuts will be enlightened is folly. There needs to be complete reform.

[brooklynite]

8. I have never said "nothing will work"

But I will respond by pointing out the flaws of a "let's .........." proposal which is clearly Unconstitutional as is, and presents no means for Constitutional change.

Dealing with gun violence requires, at the outset, an acknowledgement of political reality.

[old as dirt]

10. In my lifetime, they said the same thing about gay marriage.

We were just talking about that here the other day.

[brooklynite]

16. The Constitution doesn't say anything about marriage; it DOES say something about firearms...

Reality is that you either need to change the Constitution to address the 2nd Amendment OR you need to find a way to change the composition of the Supreme Court, which unless you know something I don't, the President, Vice President, Senate Majority Leader and House Minority Leader don't support, and for which you'd need the votes to change the filibuster rule.

[old as dirt]

17. Bowers v Hardwick (nt)

[AndyS]

12. The Constitution means what somebody says it does.

For 150 years the 2nd was a communal right, the "Right of the People" referred to the State and militia was THE People, not people. Scalia discarded all that and somewhere in those two phrases found an individual right to own a handgun for home defense. Originalism be damned!

Then, in Dobbs and Bruen, the Roberts court discarded any remaining precedent whether supported by texturalism, originalism or living document by inventing 'history and tradition' as a method of interpreting (yes, the Constitution is INTERPRETED not set in stone) and then selecting what history to apply. Was 'history' English law or common law or Magna Carta? Nope, it was whatever the court selected.

We don't need to change the Constitution, we need to change who interprets it. Thankfully the new court will not have to deal with stare decisis anymore. The Roberts court has completely obviated that concept so it's anything goes from now on!

[brooklynite]

23. "we need to change who interprets it"

Which goes to the second part of my comment.

Consider the number of mass murders in the past few decades, and the unwillingness of Republicans in Congress to do something about it and the willingness of voters to keep electing them.

[hlthe2b]

35. Yes. THIS.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

41. Your comments abiut SCOTUS are spot on!

I couldn't agree with you more. Stare Decisis is gone.

Also, I had two "Saturday night specials" pointed at me one nighf in 1996. I stayed calm and was lucky that no one in my family waa harmed. Carrying a gun wouldn't have helped me because they had the drop on me.

[Glaisne]

52. Exactly this.

It's the "Right of the People" referring to the State and militia, it's a collective right. It does not say the "Right of People" referring to individuals owning firearms much less amassing personal arsenals of weapons and ammunition.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you are a member of the National Guard, you have no right guaranteed by the Constitution to own a firearm.

[MontanaMama]

3. Amen.

Wonderful OP, AndyS. We must to have hope…otherwise, why get up every day? I have a 17 year old son, senior in high school, who is struggling to stay positive and have hope for the future. We talk all the time about how we can make positive change. I cannot accept the status quo because I can’t allow him to see that…he MUST see a parent working for change and moving toward good. If he loses hope then I lose everything. HE is my reason to fight.

Thank you.

[JudyM]

63. I love your post, too, MM.

This is such a tough time for teens… I posted this sad data yesterday https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143033257
Parents certainly have a heavier burden than when we were teens, I really feel for you. But we can (must) all rise above this. Is your son interested in any social issues yet?

[MontanaMama]

71. Yes!

Saving our planet is at the top of his list. Owen spends his free time fishing, hiking and mountain biking. Being outside is what makes him happy and his whole friend group is the same. The whole lot of them are very anxious about climate change. They know their planet won’t be like the one you and I grew up on. It’s all moving too quickly for that. They are angry about it.

Thank you for the link…I missed it when you posted it.

[crickets]

4. Thank you.

Such defeatism is a slap in the face, both to the dead as well as to those who mourn them.

[Easterncedar]

5. Nice. Succinct. Compelling.

Thank you

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. You know where I am on this, Andy. Because of you . . .

I now support many anti gun groups.

This is a great and important post. I am proud to stand by your side.

[gratuitous]

9. When MADD got started, it wasn't going to "work"

No way, folks said. You can't legislate responsible behavior. Driving drunk is a rite of passage in some areas of the country. People won't stand for the infringement on their rights. The cops will go crazy, arresting anyone and everyone.

But little by little, month by month, year by year, incidences of drunk driving declined. Legislatures and governors began taking the issue seriously. Where it used to be socially acceptable to drive home wasted, nowadays anyone dumb enough to talk about driving while impaired is going to get slammed by stranger and friend alike.

Do people still drive while impaired? Yeah. Is it acceptable? Hell, no. It's been a long slog, but with public education, easy and inexpensive alternatives, and laws with real teeth, society has changed.

Now that Americans are getting used to the notion that there's no such thing as "settled law" (thanks to the Dobbs decision), we could see a new generation of judges who emphasize the language of the Second Amendment that refers to "a well-regulated militia" rather than other verbiage. We could see a societal change in people's attitude toward firearms and the free fire zones that so much of the country has become.

Will it happen tomorrow? Of course not. Can it happen? If we don't try, the answer is an automatic no.

[betsuni]

18. +1

[crickets]

19. Thanks, gratuitous. That's a great example. nt

[CTyankee]

39. You make an important point.

the Dobbs decision destabilizes so much "settled law" it is breathtaking just to think about what will be next. It can affect us personally. Last year my granddaughter moved to Texas from Massachusetts when her company relocated. I thought that was risky -- in particular, her right to choose -- but she just laughed it off and said she could just go home to Massachusetts if need be. Now she has had enough. Her next move? California!

[News Junkie]

64. Drunk drivers didn't have a lobbying group

or a slice of the country adamantly supporting drunk driving or believing it was some kind of birthright. Everyone was against it. I don't remember a negative backlash toward MADD or a widespread belief things couldn't get better. Totally different.

But you raise a great point about Dobbs and "settled law". There is no such thing. We can't concede that.

[Mr.Bill]

67. No, but there is a liquor lobby.

And many of them were pressured to include words like "Drink responsibly" and and "Don't drink and drive" etc. in their advertising, which at least something. They were also prohibited from advertising in certain venues.

[DENVERPOPS]

69. LOL

MADD...........................

Wasn't that the group whose founder quite literally sold out to a Liquor Company to become a highly paid executive??????????

[The Blue Flower]

11. It has to change

Drunk driving used to be socially acceptable. Seat belts weren't supposed to be accepted. Nothing in life is as sure as change. This kind of destructive tragedy can't continue.

[Pobeka]

13. I'm so old I remember when there was an assault weapon ban in this country.

There can be again.

[llmart]

15. +1

I'm so old I remember when no one in this country owned one or wanted to.

[calimary]

47. Yep. Same here. Sad to say.

[Ligyron]

73. I'm so old I remember when an assault rifle was one that could go from semi to fully automatic.

Now, apparently an assault rifle can be whatever someone says it is.

[llmart]

14. I stand with you on that.

I was and will always be deeply affected by these events. Let's start with a permanent ban on assault rifles. As far as I'm concerned people who already own them need to have them confiscated. Macerate every last one of them. Put the companies out of business who sell them.

I read one person's post of "nothing will ever change" and I had to stop myself from responding, "not with that attitude it won't" trying to be polite to a fellow DUer.

[Permanut]

20. Time was..

When I was a young man, that these atrocities could easily be covered up. Thanks to technology - social media, cellphone cameras and other recording devices, that is not so easy.

And more thanks to those who write about gun violence. That's you.

We have a long way to go but I'm optimistic

Thank you.

[Hekate]

21. Thank you for this reminder, AndyS

[ancianita]

22. Right there with you, Andy. Had a glock pointed 3 inches from my chest 10 yrs ago.

Once owned two rifles and one handgun, and do understand their positive utility.

Re your comment on the Constitution, there is still the very real problem of 2A dominating 1A.
2A "rights to bear arms" should never be used to excuse the ongoing murderous denial of "life, liberty and property..." Ever.

So I gotta say, the US Constitution is not about interpretation. It's about gun-forced interpretation. The fact that government buildings won't allow guns in their confines, while schools should, tells you everything about what elected leaders fear -- for their own "life, liberty and property" if they pass gun legislation, and never about Americans' "life, liberty and property," particularly those of people too young to vote.

That right there has got to stop. Biden's chipping away at background check and red flags, but it's got to stop.

68 mass killings in 45 days.

[rubbersole]

24. I hope this doesn't sound negative...

..or dark. Something would probably happen quickly if lawmakers were the recipients of the carnage. I include Steve Scalise's experience as the example that there will be some naysayers no matter what happens. Hopefully we never have to find out which ones.

[LudwigPastorius]

25. "take the advice of your mother. If you can't say something nice and supportive just STFU."

My mom never told me to shut the fuck up.

(She probably thought it several times, but never said it to me.)

[Jarqui]

26. I'm largely on side but I have mixed feelings

The first school shooting that really got to me was Univ of Texas 1966, 18 dead, 31 wounded.
I think that is the 3rd highest death total (behind Virginia Tech and Newtown) and second highest total for dead and wounded in school shootings. It was at a time when we were still pretty rattled about JFK's assassination and other issues.

That shooting scarred me. It has stuck with me. It was the first time I couldn't fathom how someone could do such a thing. It made no sense.

That was nearly 57 years ago. Think about that. 57 years ago. Michigan shootings yesterday ...

It hasn't got any easier. This is a lovely 18 year Virginia Tech victim that really got to me

A dancer - a human butterfly - blown away. Her family is still in agony 15 years later.

Those beautiful little kids in Newtown. Takes your breath away. Speechless.

I'm results oriented. You can make all the effort in the world. But if you fail, you fail. The continued carnage of students in such shootings is a blatant, ugly reminder of failure: of falling short. Tonight, I am sick with anguish for the parents, family and friends of those poor Michigan students killed or wounded last night. If that was one of my daughters, I would be inconsolable forever. I know that.

How else can one put it: obviously, we haven't done enough. I don't feel very good about that.
I have been having similar feelings for the unarmed black kids getting shot in the back by police.
We're not making very good progress on these issues in terms of the results.

Am I giving up? NEVER! Is the wind out of my sails tonight? It sure is.

[Trueblue Texan]

27. I am with you...

...I have always believed it would serve this nation to have strong gun control laws. Possibly I am biased too because I grew up with a mother whose go-to for solving relationship problems was to dig out her hand gun. Didn't matter the relationship, her son-in-law, husband, even her own daughter would be threatened with a gun to their head if they didn't do what she said.

No. Crazy people are in abundance. Unfortunately, so are guns. But the Uvalde murders finally put to rest the "good guy with a gun" theory, so I do have hope that we will change the gun laws. There might be a lot of violence before we succeed, but we will see major change in my lifetime.

I agree, the cynicism doesn't serve the agenda of any American who wants to see change in this area or any advances in policy that protects democracy. But it serves someone's agenda, for sure.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

28. All I know, beyond all the horrific events, is that

you never even responded to my honest and forthright direct message..

[duhneece]

29. My grandson is alive, walking & talking, miraculously

At 19 on April 4, 2022, he shot himself in the head.
It was a miracle that he shot himself in his girlfriend’s car across from UNM Hospital.
His neurosurgeon says it was a miracle that the bullet didn’t hit 1 mm closer to ______.
Multiple miracles later, we text and keep up.
I’ll see him in a few weeks and we’re going to try attending Committee meetings or full sessions as New Mexico legislature is in session.

[hlthe2b]

34. I can say nothing more important than what you just conveyed.

My very best wishes to you and your grandson.

[duhneece]

38. And my story, without the miracles, is far too common

I will fight for policies to reduce gun violence for the rest of my life

[BootinUp]

30. I expect you get and deserve a good bit of support.

Try not to let the internet get you down.

[summer_in_TX]

31. Never give up.

NEVER give up.


NEVER GIVE UP.


One day we will get there, thanks to people who share your single-minded focus on ridding us of this scourge.

[betsuni]

32. K&R

[hlthe2b]

33. I would never tell you that. My perspective dates to 24/7 coverage of Columbine, a few miles away

from where I was then isolated and confined to home recovering from significant orthopedic surgery. If there was ever a PTSD-invoking event for Coloradoans, it was that. Every single mass murder event, especially Sandy Hook, Aurora, CO Theater shooting, nearby Boulder, CO King Soopers massacre, Uvalde, Parkland, and on and on and on-- has been a constant ripping at the scab. All I know is that it will NEVER heal until we turn the corner and begin effective gun control (and related) steps to address this. But, I cannot be so cynical as to conclude it "NEVER WILL." That is to give up all hope. I will NOT do that.

[HAB911]

36. Preach, brother

I'm with you

[OneGrassRoot]

37. Huge K&R. n/t

[pandr32]

40. K&R

[c-rational]

42. K&R - Good post AndyS.

[jrthin]

43. I agree. Good post. nt

[Wild blueberry]

44. Thank you

Excellent post.
Please take good care of yourself, too.

[RobinA]

45. So In Other Words,

no discussion on this discussion board? Just happy talk. Got it.

[AndyS]

46. Total capitulation is not discussion and I assure there is not a fucking thing

happy about gun vioence.

[Butterflylady]

48. Happy talk? Evidently I am missing something.

[Pepsidog]

49. SCOTUS has made America exponentially much more dangerous due to Bruen. NJ uses to have very strict

carry laws. Only about 2500 permits are granted a year. Now, every nutjob is free to get a gun carry permit. I hate SCOTUS, or should I say, the radical 5 illegitimate and captured justices. Truly evil dastards.

[treestar]

50. some people have opinions you won't like

you cannot request control of the posts. New posters will come in and not know your personal rules. Discussion does not work that way.

The defeatists can be argued with, too. I would agree with you, but you can't tell people what to post or not. Unless it really deserves to be hidden, a person can be hopeless if they want to.

[Tumbulu]

51. Irritating know it all posts are the norm

on these threads involving discussions of gun and out of control gun created chaos and sorrow.

Which is what I believe the OP is asking be refrained from in this thread. Just for once.

Is it too much to expect that anyone responding to this thread actually read the entire OP? How about we let the author of the OP respond to those who decide not to be respectful.

[treestar]

58. maybe but whaddya do when someone

won't follow the rules? Nothing but try to get the post hidden, and it may not pass that test.

[Tumbulu]

74. The author can deal with them

but those of us who are decent people will not hassle the author for fun. Or to make points.

[treestar]

76. why would the motive be hassling for fun?

what is wrong with making points in a debate?

[AndyS]

55. I can tell them what I think of their obstruction and collaboration

with the gunners. That's what I just did.

[treestar]

59. that's right

free speech problem: solution: more speech

[maxsolomon]

53. Surely you recognize that we're playing defense on this issue,

and that we have a decades-long losing streak going. The momentum (and money) is on the other side.

Gun reform isn't impossible; it's currently unlikely. As I posted yesterday, it's been nearly a half-century since the "Cincinnati Revolution" when hard-liners took over the NRA and changed its mission. Since then, Gun Laws have moved one direction: towards liberalization.

I'm sorry if I'm pessimistic. I do hope younger generations can figure it out.

[AndyS]

54. Money yes, momentum no.

It would be nice to keep it going. People supporting the 'other side' by repeating the claims of invincibility are no help.

Be pessimistic if you want, just don't use your pessimism to destroy others will to continue.

That's what the 'give up, it'll ever change' crowd is doing, working for the gun industry from the inside. What the soviets used to call 'useful idiots'.

[maxsolomon]

56. What you call 'support' is more likely despair.

I know that's often how I feel about the prospects for change when massacres happen, or legal challenges succeed.

That said, it's not impossible for America to change its mind about guns. Nothing is binary. It's just very difficult.

[AndyS]

60. We agree on the difficulty.

I've been at this almost 40 years, first as an academic curiosity and later as a dedicated activist going to Marches, writing and offering $$ support. I'm seeing more momentum now than ever before. Gun regulation is no longer a losing campaign, much the opposite.

We're going to get that assault weapon ban and begin the move to a more sane outlook on guns.

[treestar]

61. maybe they do really feel that way

I call it exaggeration to insist they must be working for the gunners.

I understand the annoyance. I hate the old "president's party always loses Congress in the midterms" theme that permeated the 2022 midterm discussions.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

57. Given that not a single mass shooting seems to dampen the enthusiasm for guns,

I have a lot of trouble imagining this ever changing.

I do think that perhaps actually publishing photos of those murdered, especially be assault rifles, especially young children, might make a difference. If people actually saw what those bullets actually do, nothing like the nice, neat wounds you might see in a movie, maybe then there would be the kind of outcry that would make a difference.

Until then, another day, another mass shooting. Or several.

[treestar]

62. Yep. Some people have so little imagination

and the delicacy that prevents us from doing that isn't helping a thing.

I recall reading "Helter Skelter" and they had whited out the photos of the victims' bodies. Now they are on the internet without the whiteouts. There, I suppose enough time had passed? Still, it helps the gunners that we consider it too sensitive.

[DENVERPOPS]

70. Exactly

I grieved, and cried for the parents of the third graders when it was reported that the coroner needed DNA samples from the parents to make a positive identification of many of the third grade children victims............

CAN YOU THINK OF WHY THEY NEEDED DNA TESTS FOR I.D., ALL YOU FUCKING ASSAULT WEAPON TOTING ASSHOLES....???????????

Maybe, if they published the un-censored, crime scene pictures of those third grade children, it might sink in to some of the gun people's heads about the need for gun control laws and regulations........

*************************************************************************************

I recall, when I was a teen, drag racing was a big thing, even here in Denver. Then, one night, a drag racer sped thru a RED LIGHT at 8th Avenue and University. The drag racer hit a convertible broadside at 80 mph. The convertible had seven teen age kids in it. That week the authorities took the convertible, and put it on the front lawn of every high school in Denver for the students to see.........It did, in fact, serve to cut down on the amount of high schoolers drag racing in Denver.

Of course, in today's world, that would not happen, it would be deemed too gruesome. Same with pictures of bodies after being shot with a military style assault weapon.........

[treestar]

77. So even just the car helped them see

that was a good idea.

In Jr. High, the staff showed us movies about kids on drugs and the terrible things that happened - trying to scare us out of taking drugs. This was the 70s when it was partly considered psychedelic and mind expanding.

So even a movie with the bodies made up realistically could help, perhaps.

First responders to the real shootings may never get over it. They could talk about it, too.

[DENVERPOPS]

80. Thank you for your post

"First responders to the real shootings may never get over it"..........................................

[Mr.Bill]

68. I agree, but not without

the permission of the victim's family.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. Of course.

And some parents wouldn't want their child's mutilated body shown. Some would be willing.

There also needs to be a lot more coverage of those who are merely wounded in these mass shootings. Many of them are maimed for life.

[treestar]

78. Of course, though at this point, they

might be willing. The reasons they are kept away from public eyes becomes less and less compelling when there are people who are practically OK with it as a price for their freedom to have guns.

[DENVERPOPS]

81. Thank you for your post

"I do think that perhaps actually publishing photos of those murdered, especially be assault rifles, especially young children, might make a difference. If people actually saw what those bullets actually do, nothing like the nice, neat wounds you might see in a movie"

[JudyM]

65. I can see where this would feel crazy. I don't have that going on but still feel despondent

when I see that type of post.

[genxlib]

66. The future has one thing going for it

And that is a whole lot of future voters that have been terrorized by the fear and violence of school shootings.

I just can't imagine them putting up with that shit when the numbers of those voters hit critical mass.

[Tumbulu]

75. I agree

But we must tackle the hate am radio brainwashing.

And we need to mobilize the groups that we do not usually connect with.

I do believe that it will happen. It just is taking way way way way way too long. I could have written way about a hundred thousand times.

[treestar]

79. Yes. The fire drills and civil defense drills

for Boomers - those possibilities were at least vague and unlikely, like nuclear attack, or of an origin where at least they are things that just happen, like tornadoes or fires.

But to have intruder drills makes it a different matter and when it is their children, they may be willing to do more to cut down on the access to guns.