Iraq War 2003 vs Ukraine War 2022

[WarGamer]

First, just wanted to say... I love DU when it's a great place for discussion.

I enjoy seeing the thought process of other people I respect.

This is not an easy analysis but I believe it's a fruitful one.





The war was started based on lies. The nation's leader was particularly invested, possibly holding vengeance as a motivation.

The war started with a thundering invasion and aerial bombardment. Civilians, by the millions fled their homes and cities.

Civilians bore the brunt of the invasion, with massive casualties directly and indirectly related to the war.

War crimes were committed... to this day we still don't know if there will be justice.

It's the classic case of the bully... a top 2 global superpower attacking a much weaker and smaller country.




Your assignment?

Make your case to compare and contrast the two wars. If you so decide... you can even label one of them "worse" than the other, but remember to define WHY one is "worse".

[Beastly Boy]

1. You listed some parallels between the wars, but in essence the two are very different.

The war in Ukraine is an imperial war, while the war in Iraq was a colonial one. The former is an attempt to completely dominate the territory and the culture of Ukraine by Russia, virtually wiping Ukraine off the map, while the aim of the latter was regime change followed by expansion of US' spheres of influence and possibly exploitation of Iraq's natural resources (clearly, I disagree with those who think that the war in Ukraine is merely an attempt by Russia to expand its sphere of influence).

Virtually every war of aggression in some ways starts with lies, followed by civilian casualties, usually on mass scale, war crimes, the propaganda machine working overtime. It also follows some basic tenets of Sun Tzu's The Art of War, the most obvious one being a decisive attack with overwhelming force. These parallels between the two wars are therefore not surprising.

In military terms, the US followed Sun Tzu's old war manual much closer than Russia did. As a consequence, the US military campaign ended much quicker and more decisively than the one-year old military conflict in Ukraine, even though the Iraqi army, at least on paper, was the world's fourth largest at the time.

What intrigues me more is the aftermath of the Iraq war and how it hints at the likely aftermath of the Ukraine war were Russia to conquer Ukraine within weeks: presence of their forces in Ukraine for the foreseeable future, loss of standing for the belligerent regime at home, eventual failure to administer the conquered territories and, most significantly, radical insurgencies that would destabilize not only Russia but the entire region. I see much wisdom in NATO's determination to not let this happen in Ukraine.

[WarGamer]

2. great analysis, thanks!

Yes, the US was much more successful at crushing the Iraqis. That's mostly because the US enjoyed air supremacy allowing slow ground attack aircraft to operate at will. Iraq had nothing much more than AK-47's, RPG's and IED's to fight with... their old Soviet tanks and AA were destroyed in the initial shock and awe portion.

The REAL tragedy of the Iraq War was the destabilization in the region which led to multiple civil wars and the rise of ISIS/ISIL.

100's of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and Syria each.

Agreed, I see differences in the motivations of George W Bush and Vladimir Putin.




Just a quick story to illustrate one of the differences.

We all know about the wasteful human life expenditure as Russia throws untrained soldiers at the Ukrainian defenders...

Contrast that with the US military. I have a good friend who served with the USMC and was part of the "door knocker" groups entering buildings in Iraq.

He told me that the US Military will have a group of 30 soldiers stop and take cover if a single Iraqi sniper is on a roof top to call in an air strike to kill the one sniper, time permitting.

The professional forces of the US Military are truly unmatched.

[Dum Aloo]

3. Name a single thing Russia or Pootin has ever done

which could be considered “good.”

Contrast that to America, with all its warts, a country which has promoted goodwill and human rights around the world.

What countries can POS vlad visit?

[WarGamer]

4. Thanks for your reply

Just to play Devil's Advocate, do you think historical goodwill and promotion of some (not all) human rights excuses what happened in Iraq?

Should Shrub be a hypothetical cellmate to putin?

[Dum Aloo]

5. Answer me first?...

[WarGamer]

7. I can't think of a single thing Putin has done that benefitted the planet.

Russia, on the other hand... saved at a minimum, Europe... and possible more than that in WW2.

If the German forces arrayed vs Russia were used in other spots, they would have taken England and North Africa, without a doubt.

Having said that... Stalin was worse than Putin or Hitler.

And the transformation of Tsarist Russia to the USSR was certainly responsible for 10's of millions of deaths

So yeah, it's tough to avoid the bad stuff.

[EX500rider]

6. The biggest differences I see

Ukraine has a democratically elected government and Russia is trying to take over and absorb the country.

Iraq had a homicidal dictator who poisoned gassed his own people and overthrowing him was not to take over the country but to install a better form of government.

[WarGamer]

8. That's certainly a difference.