General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill America Split?
America has, from its inception, been an expanding country. It and Canada split from one another very early on, as most Canadians were American British colonists that did not want to separate from England (or French colonists that did not want to leave France), and I think it's important to realize how much American and Canadian history really is intertwined.
In the first eighty years, the opportunities for growth, wealth, and finding like-minded people let to the expansion of the country to the West Coast, but already the seeds of conflict, primarily over slavery, were planted. The more early industrialized north developed a mercantilist attitude very much at odds with the plantation-centric states in the South, which were borrowing an economic model that it really wasn't suited for. The worst excesses of slavery happened in the Caribbean, Central America and the northern parts of South America, and cotton, rum, and tobacco were very much secondary crops in the vast trade network triangle of the Atlantic. Most economists have concluded that slavery would have likely persisted only to about 1885, even if the civil war had not happened, because it was becoming less and less economically viable.
Similarly, the Civil War's conclusion was pretty much inevitable. The South had the better generals, but that was really their own advantage - the North had advanced technology, the ability to manufacture rifles of superior quality in far greater numbers, and the economic base sufficient to continue to do so long after the South's economy had been destroyed. The North urbanized the South, and in the process set the groundwork for what has come since.
By 1912, New Mexico and Arizona became the last contiguous states to join the union. Alaska and Hawaii would be the last two territorial states to become fully recognized states, in 1949. After World War II, the US gained much of the British Empire by proxy, having effectively replaced British garrisons globally with Americans, and it boosted the American economy to become the largest in the world. However, empires are expensive, especially when colonies no longer significantly contribute to the Imperial well-being. Yet America's Empire has become more a formality as country after country has nationalized their primary exports, and this erosion, which started in the late 1970s, has been reversing the tide of globalism and the increased standard of life for many, exposing islands of greater wealth while leaving more and more people facing decline.
Empires do not remain empires for long. The Ottoman Empire split in the late 19th century, the German empire expanded from multiple states to eventually expanding nearly to Moscow, the British Empire began to dissolve even before World War I, the Soviet Empire peaked in the 1970s, collapsed in the 1990s, and looks to be collapsing even more now. The Chinese Empire is now expanding, but it's a tenuous one - my guess is that it will likely expand primarily by absorbing the Russian oblasts in Siberia, but that's only a guess.
When Empires collapse, internal divisions within the Imperial host become more stressed. Oligarchs in the US have come to realize that retaining the whole country is no longer feasible - demographics are against them in the long run, and oil, which is what the current generation of oligarchy is built on directly or indirectly, is threatened by nuclear power, green energy, and within twenty years, fusion.
Their current strategy, funded by deep pockets, is to split the country along cultural lines. They are succeeding. I would argue that neither Trump norDeSantis would be able to become President today, let alone win the Trifecta as they did in 2016, if the US overall. Yet, lose the West Coast, the Northeast, and arguably most of the Canadian adjacent North, and they end up with a Red America that is half the size with perhaps 35% of the economic strength of the current United States, still making it (by a considerably margin) the 3rd largest economy on the planet, behind the Blue United States (China immediately vaults to 1st place, at least for a few decades).
Even if Blue America united with Canada, (unlikely but not completely out of the question) this really wouldn't change much. Red America would at least on paper be a country with a GDP of USD$8 Trillion, with roughly 1,000 nuclear weapons and one Fleet (4th Fleet (South Atlantic), out of Mayport, Florida. It may seem like a worthwhile gamble if you're an oligarch wanting to be even more powerful.
How likely is this? Currently, 19 states have passed legislation calling for a constitutional convention. However, an additional 15 currently have active legislation, and another 6 have had such legislation pass one chamber (this includes DC). 34 of 50 states would be required to call a constitutional convention, and 38 votes would be needed to pass. The latter is an almost unattainable goal (76% of all states). Still, I suspect it wouldn't matter - having called such a convention, the likelihood that a Red American coalition would form and then vote for succession from the convention would be sufficient as it is likely they would take a hard-line stance guaranteed to be at odds with the rest of the states.
Now, as to what would happen after, that's where things likely get interesting. Most states are more purple than red or blue. Central and Southeast Texas, home to military bases, universities, and research facilities, may very well be loathe to leave the union - and indeed, I suspect that most plebiscites (if they were allowed to be held) would put the kibosh on any secession plans. In other places where you have large minority populations relative to the apartheid governments, the areas may turn into a bloody civil war that did not go the way the apartheid government intended.
Over the long run, I suspect cooler voices will prevail, and the secession attempt will end with more comedy than tragedy. A second convention may very well be called (or the first simply resumed), the hard issue of resolving some very serious inequalities of representation should be rectified, the rights and responsibilities of corporate personhood need to be ironed out, the Equal Rights Amendment needs to be approved, and the direction of the country, as it moves into the twenty-first century, needs to be determined.
My personal belief? We have long had de-facto regional governments - the US district court of appeals, for instance, has 14 divisions + (Fed and DC). A system which placed more political power at this District level might better balance power than exists today, and can be done without threatening the integrity of the US as a country. Similarly, we can expand the number of Supreme Court judges to fifteen by assuming that each district has one justice appointment. The districts would also have a number of representatives proportional to their population, with the districts then being redrawn every census.
However, that's my own opinion. There are no doubt many others.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)I wonder if us liberals in the south would be put in prison? Probably.
TheRealNorth
(9,500 posts)They don't mean a North-South divide or even Red State-Blue State divide. They mean taking all the land except for the cities, meaning they get all the resources, farmland, water, etc. Democratic areas would be nothing but ghettos like the Warsaw ghetto.
MarcA
(2,195 posts)And Turmoil is Not Good for "Business". Eventually, even the Owners would be harmed. So, a balancing act has to be maintained between Owner and Owned, can't be allowed to go to much either way. It would be nice if we had neither, but that is still a work in progress for human evolution. As for the MAGAs, et al, they are/will be tools used to bring it about if it comes about, but in the end they would be in their own ghettos for the most part. Let's make sure that we too do not become tools.
TheRealNorth
(9,500 posts)Between the cosmopolitan corporatist and the gentry class that make up the local chambers of commerce.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)the US of 2123 will look very little like what we have today. The ties of the past just won't be as strong as they have beén.
Civil War in 2025? Don't think it can't happen if Trump and his allies keep it up. They're calling for it now, and no one knows how long that silliness will last.
For many years our growth was largely held by immigratíon, with new immigrants from Asia, Spanish holdings, and Europe moving us along with brains and bawn. Many of them were forced here while others were drawn to that shining city on the hill. Quite frankly, the stories of race and slavery haven't been fully written yet, but we have an idea where they are going. Pretty much everyone else is on the road to American integration. Yes, even Asians, although they have run into their own forms of racism.
So, will we blow up or become that future that Star Trek dreamed of?
I really have no idea.
Sympthsical
(9,121 posts)The Civil War became possible largely because the country was not an integrated nation. There existed two separate economic systems helmed by two separate kinds of societies with separate colonial histories existing in two separate and distinct regions of the country, and both had very different ideas about what maintaining sectional economic power entailed.
America is too integrated now. Economically, culturally, racially, and religiously.
There is no concentration of distinct power that would effect the kind of separation envisioned by the fatalists and the fantasists.
What we have decided we will do, as a culture, is allow the loudest voices in the media to play disproportionately loud roles in the discourse. Most Americans are not that radical. Most Americans are really quite boring and easy to understand.
The people who do not understand are either dumb or playing dumb because they're benefiting from feigned ignorance in some way.
When we stop making hatred of others profitable, we will do better and see more clearly.
But for now, hatred of the other is profitable, and lying to people that somehow this is all going somewhere other than sustained inescapable unhappiness is an illusion they're selling.
Why people keep buying it is completely beyond me.
TheRealNorth
(9,500 posts)They may look like the French Revolution or English Civil War.
I don't see the Republicans making any overt acts unless they can secure the loyalty/backing of the military (or a significantly large portion of it).
brush
(53,899 posts)They defeated every southern general they went up against.
ITAL
(645 posts)Give Lee the resources Grant had and he likely wins too. Give Grant the Army of Northern Virginia, and he probably loses.
Grant was a much better strategist than Lee. As tacticians they were probably about equal, maybe with the slight edge to Lee.
Where Sherman was the best was at logistics. He was probably the weakest tactically of the trio, but logistics the Civil War may have been the first war where logistics really meant more than either tactics OR strategy.
brush
(53,899 posts)Last edited Wed May 17, 2023, 08:08 PM - Edit history (1)
MarcA
(2,195 posts)Exactly when and how remains to be seen. Even the concept of the Nation State itself for better or worse. As the Decades go by and the dawning of a new Century, new issues and alignments will emerge. Probably best for a nation to survive by having mechanisms in place to adjust to short and long term changes including the demise of what borders really are and mean. To add, with increasing technology even the evolution of what it means to be Human will need to be addressed.
GPV
(72,381 posts)brooklynite
(94,748 posts)The Confederate States were able to unify because they were geographically adjacent and economically similar AND because the structural notion of a unified national State didn't exist the way it does now. Setting aside the east-west coastal split, what happens to Illinois and Minnesota? How about Colorado and New Mexico? And do the economies of Texas and Florida really have that much to do with Mississippi and Alabama? Its not going to happen.
Metaphorical
(1,604 posts)I think it almost impossible for a civil war to actually happen, but it drives the thinking of enough people that I think it will create a great deal of disruption before its proven.
Sky Jewels
(7,149 posts)Gen X, Boomers, and Silents will have a beneficial effect on the future of this nation. (Disclaimer: Yes, I know "not all" young people are progressive and "not all" older people are conservative, blah blah blah ...)
hardluck
(641 posts)Last edited Wed May 17, 2023, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)
It makes me wonder if people are just bored with their lives and want to live in interesting times or whether they imagine themselves heroes on the side of all that is good.
I think people should travel the highways and visit the various states, stopping in local coffee shops and just meeting common folks. I think people would be surprised at how boring, nice and nonpolitical people generally are. Im not worried about these types of scenarios because the firebrands you see on tv are no way representative of the people you meet when you travel the highways and byways.
FSogol
(45,529 posts)roamer65
(36,747 posts)States like the New England ones, NY, WI, MI, MN, Northern OH, PA, IL and IN.
The goal should be to seal off the Great Lakes Aquifer into one encompassing political entity to prevent outside exploitation.
November 2024 will significantly determine the duration of the American empire, IMO.
Greybnk48
(10,176 posts)This would be their dream scenario.
TheRealNorth
(9,500 posts)But if the right wing has an alliance of convenience already with the likes of Putin and MBS, how can you effectively oppose these dictators? Look at all the shit they got away with when TFG was in charge. The only times they had any opposition is when those dictators came into conflict with the interests of someone important in the Republican Party.