We should not be applauding the use of drones on civilians by our side of any side just because

[Raven]

the Russians have used them.

[leftstreet]

1. DURec

[Walleye]

2. Maybe not, but they gotta get the attention of the Russian people somehow

Maybe the only way for the Russian people to find out what’s really going on, is to have it brought home to them

[BlackSkimmer]

28. By killing them?

Yeah, that'll turn out well.

A drone comes over and bombs your house...tell us how you'd feel about the ones who sent the drone.

[Sneederbunk]

3. Yes, must abide by the rules of war.

[stopdiggin]

8. on the other hand, sanctioning

war crime and atrocity ... (because - 'stuff happens')
Also doesn't stand up real well.

--- ---

[MarineCombatEngineer]

4. Yeah, we should and I do,

remember, it was the Russians who first targeted Ukrainian civilians with drones, Ukraine is just retaliating.

Moral of the story is if you don't want your people to become targets, don't illegally invade a sovereign nation.

[ShazzieB]

54. This is it in a nutshell.

Moral of the story is if you don't want your people to become targets, don't illegally invade a sovereign nation.

☝ ☝ ☝ ☝ ☝ This, right here, 1000%! ☝ ☝ ☝ ☝ ☝

[Pinback]

5. Agree100%.

I was horrified to see the reports of this strike this morning.

If the Ukrainians actually did this, and intentionally, it’s incredibly stupid. Attacking a civilian target would severely damage their Good Guy cred, and it would give the Russian military an excuse (though not justification) to escalate their illegal attacks.

For a Ukrainian official to say that even though they didn’t directly carry out the attack, it makes Kyiv “happy” is a reprehensible position.

I say all this as a strong supporter of Ukraine and of their defense. Attacking military targets within Russia is risky but maybe justifiable militarily. Attacking an apartment building is responding to war crimes with another war crime.

I hope this turns out to be either a false flag operation or an action carried out by a rogue force, not done at the direction of Ukraine’s government or military.

[stopdiggin]

7. +1. -(nt)-

[Demsrule86]

10. How many Ukrainians have died? It is a war.

[Ray Bruns]

31. It's a war and bad thing are going to happen.

[Demsrule86]

46. That is sadly true.

[emulatorloo]

13. Nope, Russia invaded the Ukraine. End of story.

The “Proxy War” talking points are Putin propaganda.

[walkingman]

20. All wars must end in negotiation. This one will as well.

Russia is a nuclear power and it is important that to understand they have a role to play in Eurasia.

[emulatorloo]

27. "Ukraine must surrender to Putin so he doesn't blow up the world"

Just another Kremlin talking point we’ve heard from US pro-Putin commentators like Katrina vanden Heuvel.

Ukrainians and Putin are the parties that will need to negotiate. So far Putin is not interested.

Take care, appreciate your posts.

[walkingman]

44. Any talks of nukes or blowing up the world should never happen nonchalantly.

The 2023 Doomsday Clock is at 90 seconds to midnight for a reason.

[Calculating]

65. And?

It's entirely up to Putin if he wants everyone to die. He has an easy way to end this mess. Withdraw from Ukraine now and he might even be able to hold onto Crimea. If he keeps fighting till he has nothing left then Ukraine might even get Crimea back.

[Demsrule86]

49. I don't agree.

[NoRethugFriends]

15. Exactly who is Russia a proxy for?

[walkingman]

22. I personally like the Macron approach. Russia must be defeated but not crushed.

We like to think defending Ukraine deters China from assaulting Taiwan. Rather, it is that as Russia and China work to break the Eurasian security system, the U.S. must defend all aspects of that system or risk a complete unraveling.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

16. A proxy war?

Exactly who is Russia proxying for?

[NoRethugFriends]

30. Yep. That was my question. Still waiting for them to answer.

Perhaps Russia is a stand-in for the Martians

[MarineCombatEngineer]

61. I found Russia's proxy:

Marvin the Martian.

[Buckeyeblue]

14. When I saw this it reeked of the Russians staging this

Putin is desperate for an excuse to just level Kyiv. I expect that will be his next move.

[walkingman]

32. I hope that Ukraine does not end up like Syria. Europe will have to deal with the aftermath

and like in the past US foreign policy will be questioned forever. That is not in our long term interests.

[NoRethugFriends]

34. What is not in our best long-term interests? Keeping Russia from destroying Ukrtaine??

[walkingman]

40. It might be in our best interests for a weaken Russia but it is their neighbors

that will feel the real impact of this war. Russia and China are Europe's natural trading partners, not the US. It will be and is already a hit on their economies. A multi-polar world is far safer than a uni-polar one.

[NoRethugFriends]

50. So the interests of the Ukrainian people having their country taken over and destroyed is irrelevant?

[Torchlight]

51. I see zero reason or evidence to believe Ukraine would end up as Syria did.

Many reason though to believe Ukraine will become a bulwark of western democratic traditions after Russia admits its failure and finally retreat home. Witnessing additional democracies becoming stronger and more resilient in the face of aggression is in everyone's long term interests.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

63. Ummm, Ukraine is nothing like Syria,

Syria is a civil war where Assad is not very will liked, whereas, Pres. Zelensky is well liked by the people and the majority of the world, so to try to compare Ukraine to Syria is just ridiculous.

[CaptainTruth]

35. Moscow is about 300 miles from the Ukranian border.

I don't believe Ukraine has any drones that can fly that far, much less carrying an explosive payload.

Those drones had to be launched from within Russia, around Moscow.

[SWBTATTReg]

43. I think you're exactly right. To be honest, I think that there is a sizable Russian faction

that's causing some of these Russian explosions.

[wnylib]

53. I have a very strong hunch that this was a false flag attack

being used by Russia to justify their own latest brutal attack on Kyiv.

Or, it might have been carried out by Russian dissidents. It looks like the drone attacks were carried out in a time and place to damage property without killing people.

Might not be prudent for Ukrainian officials to say that the attacks make Kyiv happy, but, after what the Ukrainians have been through, it is certainly an understandable sentiment.

I have always felt that the US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong and unwarranted. I have heard all the arguments about saving lives by ending the war sooner, but that would have been accomplished by using the atomic bomb on two major military sites instead of on two civilian cities.

[ShazzieB]

57. I'm very much in the "false flag" camp on this.

I wouldn't put it past Putin to do this for one minute. I think he's become deranged by his rage at not getting the easy win he expected and by watching Ukraine's favor with the West rise so dramatically at the same time the world's opinion of Russia has been sinking like a stone.

[Liberal In Texas]

59. I'm going with FALSE FLAG. Putin wants to get his people motivated

They're no doubt a bit sick of all the conscription.

[wnylib]

62. I'm inclined to agree.

[Calculating]

66. The Bataan death march, unit 731, Nanking

There are the only three reasons I've ever needed to be ok with it. Imperial Japan was monstrous.

[wnylib]

68. I doubt that the infants, children, pregnant women, elderly men and women,

or hospital patients in the cities were responsible for any death marches.

[Calculating]

69. We also arguably SAVED many lives by nuking them to force a surrender

If we had to invade the Japanese mainland the deaths on both sides would have been insane. We had to force them to surrender somehow, and in a culture that says "death before dishonor" that's a bit hard.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

71. +100. nt

[wnylib]

72. As I said earlier, we could have achieved an end to the war

by using atomic bombs on two or more major military sites instead of on civilian populations in cities.

Bombing civilian cities was overkill retaliation for the Japanese attack on the military targets at Pearl Harbor. It also gave US scientists an opportunity to study the effects of atomic bombs and radiation on a cross section of people and buildings.

But it was not ever necessary for ending the war and "saving lives."

[MarineCombatEngineer]

73. The Atomic bombings were about breaking the will of the Japanese Military and civilian population,

this was total war.

Let me ask you a question: what do you think would have happened if Japan had won the Pacific war and occupied the US?
Do you think they would have hesitated to afflict maximum damage on US civilians?
Judging by their performance during WWII, I highly doubt it.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

70. If Japan, in WWII, hadn't committed acts of atrocity, nor attacked the US,

then those same infants, children, pregnant women, elderly men and women, or hospital patients wouldn't have died for Japan's atrocities now would they?

[wnylib]

74. Japan attacked a military target at Pearl Harbor,

not civilian cities.

So you would disagree with the OP about committing war crimes? If the enemy commits them that gives us license to do it, too? The atrocious treatment of people by the Japanese during the war gave us license to do the same?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

75. As I said, it was total war,

and anything went.
The same applies to Russia, if Russia had stayed on their side of the border, we wouldn't even be talking about this now, would we?

The bottom line is, don't start nuthin, won't be nuthin.

[H2O Man]

6. Recommended.

[rso]

9. Drones

We don’t know what the actual target of the drones was, and whether they missed their targets. But it’s still the only way to get the attention of the average Russian, to make them realize what’s going on in Ukraine.

[BlackSkimmer]

29. Yes, having their homes bombed by drones sent by Ukraine is sure going to win their hearts and minds

Echoes of General Westmoreland here.

Jesus H.

[rso]

47. Drones

No one wants to win their hearts and minds, the purpose is to demonstrate that Putin and his sycophants can’t protect their own people and thus force people to reconsider their support of Putin.

[ShazzieB]

60. Good points!

[tritsofme]

12. Well you seem quite comfortable to parrot Putin's narrative on the attack.

My guess is that the truth is rather different.

[BannonsLiver]

17. Vlad approved.

Also it’s pretty naive to accept the Kremlin version of events at face value.

[Bev54]

19. I agree, he needs to scare the hell out of Russians to keep them on his side.

Notice it always minimum damage, in comparison to what the Ukrainians actually succeed on military targets. As someone in the military said, sometimes you have to take what people say with a grain of salt but with Russia and Putin you need a mine of salt. Putin is getting desperate and he is not beyond attacking his own citizens to satisfy his ends justify his means.

[BadgerMom]

37. Reminds me of the 1999 apartment bombings.

Informed speculation implicated Putin.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-1999-russian-apartment-bombings-led-to-putins-rise-to-power-2018-3?amp

[Bettie]

18. Based on previous actions by Russia

It is probably an action taken by them to drum up support for another mobilization.

[Marius25]

21. What makes you think "our" side did this?

Sounds like another Russian false flag.

[JustAnotherGen]

24. This -

They've hurt their own in the past.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. It's either a False Flag - or -

Russian Security sucks.

[maxsolomon]

25. did the drones attack residential buildings?

Rusher claims to have shot them all down. if the debris falls on a building, that's not targeted.

[Irish_Dem]

26. A ruthless psychopath is destroying Ukraine, in his quest to rule the world.

Ukrainian women and children are being raped, tortured and murdered.
Their country is rubble.

Next Putin will go to other European countries, he will not stop until he is stopped.

Sorry but being nice is not going to stop Putin.

I am a unique creature I guess. A strong pacifist.

But when a person starts doing what Putin is doing, they need to be stopped on the spot.
By any means possible.

[maxsolomon]

58. He is not going to invade any NATO country.

If he can subdue Ukraine, yes, he may take Moldova. Annex Belarus? Sure.

This is a long-term project; he'll pursue it the rest of his life/reign.

[Gore1FL]

33. I don't applaud the use of any weapon.

I am happy that Ukraine has the means to defend itself. If that means drones, missiles or bi-planes, I’ll support it.

[Warpy]

52. There is a good analysis at the BBC, including video

and their analysts think this was a commercially available drone attack and launched closer to Moscow, not from Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65753825

We know Prigozhin isn't the only oligarch with a private army, he just came up with the idea first. A lot of those guys want to be the next Putin, while others realize the only way to survive what's coming is to have a private army to hide behind.

Russia is going to start to devolve rather quickly as they lose this war.

[Iggo]

36. Gawd, I hate these "We" threads that actually mean "You."

[Raven123]

38. I must have missed it. Were the drones targeting civilians?

Could it be they (whoever sent them) intended to hit a military or strategic target and the drone went off course?

[CommonHumanity]

39. Re "it is the only way to get the attention of the Russian people"

I'm paraphrasing, but there are several posts that say something along the lines of:

"It is the only way to get the attention of the Russian people and let them know what is happening".

I know we share the same sentiments re an end to the war and self-determination for Ukraine, but I must respectfully disagree with this viewpoint.

Threatening, targeting and injuring civilians will only make the Russian people LESS sympathetic to Ukraine. Russia propaganda has already spread the lie that the war was to stop Nazi-like elements in Ukraine. Even if the truth of the Russian war of aggression is beginning to shine through to the Russian public, we cannot blame Russians who still believe this lie. The Russian people are inundated with propaganda and dissent and opposing viewpoints are violently repressed through fear, intimidation, jailing, poisoning and on and on. Attacks on innocent civilians by Ukraine will only fuel the myth of Russia as the defender of the innocent.

I am not saying the attack might not have been by the Russians in a further attempt to paint Ukraine as the bad guys. I'm just saying that overall bombing civilians will only aid to further Russian propaganda and will not help the Russian people "know what is happening".

[mjvpi]

41. I agree. If a war is fought to promote the moral arc of history, it should be conducted so.

Wars, as a problem solving tool, are pretty low on the evolutionary scale. When you are invaded by ratfuckers, and they continually show exactly who they are by the way that they wage their invasion, the temptation to tit for tat must be immense.

[ashredux]

42. From what we can see, this was not designed to kill anyone. It was low end explosives

It was just a calling card so to speak to let the Russians know this could work two ways…

Yes, my own speculation

[Botany]

45. I don't think those drones came from Ukraine

It is 700 miles from the Ukraine/Russian border to Moscow and did those type of drones
which hit Moscow have that type of range? And how come the drones were not picked up by
Russian radar?

Was it a false flag operation? Could the drones have come from anti Putin Russian rebels?

[Kennah]

48. I think it's unlikely it was the Ukrainians directly ...

... though they might have provided the drones to the Russian partisans, whom I believe did it.

[PaulnFortWorth]

55. This Is WAR!

HELLO! Ukrainian men, women and children are being killed by the people who represent the Russian people. It's their OWN FAULT for allowing Putin to go this far.

It's nice to have a HIGH HORSE to climb on and say that Ukrainian men, women and children CAN BE KILLED but we're better than Putin and his supporters. And it's OK for Russians to KIDNAP Ukrainian children from occupied areas.

NO! The Russian people need to have this WAR rubbed in their faces. They'll never have the same number of killed civilians that Ukraine faces but the Russian people need to stand up to Putin and end this war. The Russian people will never have their homes destroyed to the same extend that Ukraine has faced.

Is war fair? No, not a bit. Until the Russian people stand up to Putin, let them feel the same pain that the people of Ukraine feel. Until then, encourage Ukraine to bomb Russian cities.

I survived VietNam with all it's horrors. "We're better than the enemy" only generates more gravestones.

[pwb]

56. +

.

[malaise]

64. War - what is it good for

[MarineCombatEngineer]

67. It's good for nothing,

but sometimes absolutely necessary.