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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA church in Ohio kicks out one of its LGBTQ members for speaking out against their priest's hate...
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Wow, that took a lot of courage!
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)And that would include the ones about not accepting homosexuality.
Matthew 5:17-18. Go read it, and keep in mind that the law he means is the laws in the Torah.
I'd think that all of you fans of his would know what he actually said and did. Then again, it's the rare christian who has read the book.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)However, I have read the entire 'Bible' cover to cover several times. The Old Testament is barbaric.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)But it doesn't change that he said all of the laws were in effect until the earth ended. Matthew 5:17-18.
And the law did not allow homosexuality.
So either he meant what he said in Matthew 5:17-18--or he didn't. Which one is it?
As to your Jefferson bible excuse, well, it's interesting how so many "true" christians criticize the evangelicals for picking and choosing what to follow from the book...but then will follow a book that itself picked and chose verses from the main book.
Y'all can't have it both ways with that, either.
I didn't write the book. I'm only holding you to what it says.
All of it.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)Then I'll stop.
You're free to put me on ignore.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)being called a liar. There are a hundred prohibitions in the OT that call for death and I'll bet you have ignored 80% of those.
The Jefferson Bible is just the words of Christ.
bucolic_frolic
(43,161 posts)BlueWaveNeverEnd
(7,925 posts)Jedi Guy
(3,189 posts)And, despite efforts by a lot of folks on the right, church isn't government. The church has no obligation to provide a platform for anyone, much less anyone espousing a viewpoint with which they disagree. It's a private organization on private property, not a public forum where anyone is free to speak as they wish. They were fully within their rights to ask this person to stop speaking and leave.
Mind you, none of that addresses the value or lack thereof in their respective viewpoints. I agree it wasn't at all Christlike, from the homily to the reaction to this person's words. The priest is up there openly being angry and bitter because some people said some words, whereas Christ wasn't bitter or angry towards the people who did far worse to him.
So much for "bless those who curse you" and "turn the other cheek," I guess.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)He's the one who said that the laws are here as long as the earth is (Matthew 5:17-18. On multiple occasions, the laws he means are the ones in the Torah against homosexuality, like Leviticus 20:13.
So if he believed that the laws against homosexuality were (and still are) in effect and to be followed, then he, too, considered it an abomination.
QEbloodyD.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Leviticus verses actually forbade sex with boys.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)The first five of its 10 stupid rules are violations of the 1st Amendment.
Furthermore, what this guy professes is entirely in line with what his demigod supported, which would *not* have been homosexuality. He doesn't say it directly, but he does say that not one jot or tittle of the law will change until the earth ends. Matthew 5:17-18. And the law he means is the Torah body of laws, like Leviticus 20:13, which declares homosexuality an abomination.
Try reading the book sometime. All of it, not just the parts that give you warm fuzzies.
samnsara
(17,622 posts)Celerity
(43,353 posts)marble falls
(57,081 posts)... Priest preached hate and anger and urged his parishioners to hate and be angry.
I'm straight and I swear I'd have been up to that pulpit right behind her. There is no "gay" right that that has ever threatened any of my rights. Like Steve Stills once sang, "Remember that Jesus gave love away for free."
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)Your deity had a lot of hate and anger in him: Beating up those temple vendors over a non-violent offense. Destroying a tree that wouldn't give him fruit when he wants it. Calling a foreign woman and her daughter dogs to their faces.
Oh--and promising to torture people forever for disagreeing with him.
Do any of you ever consider how much hate and cruelty it takes to torture someone for 30 seconds, never mind forever? But your guy is obsessed with it, enough that he promises to do just that on multiple occasions. Even his father wasn't that angry and evil. Sure, the sky daddy would zap people for some really stupid reasons, but he didn't reanimate them to torture them after they'd already endured this vale of tears. Never mind doing it forever.
And please don't insult everyone's intelligence by saying any of that was taken out of context. Tell me something: In what possible context could it ever be okay to torture someone at all, never mind forever? In what context is it okay to call someone seeking your help a "dog?" In what context is it okay to destroy trees because it couldn't give you a bloody fig when you wanted it? In what context is it ever okay to beat up people who didn't become violent with you first?
There is no context where any of that is moral or decent. It's all horrible and horrifying.
hatrack
(59,585 posts)The First Amendment protects the government from shutting down these hate filled churches, but it doesn't mean anyone is forced to sit there and listen to it. Power to the people. Don't show up, don't open your wallet, and these maggots starve to death and die.
Karadeniz
(22,514 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,925 posts)cynical_idealist
(360 posts)twisted for human agendas
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)The Dodgers/ Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Pride plan is an affront to, if not attack on, the Catholic Church. I don't Approve of politics from the pulpit but I think the priest is within his rights to respond to the hate shown by these two organizations.
The person who interrupted the Mass to present her rebuttal was out of line. It was not well received by the congregation. She should have approached the Priest after Mass.
There are a lot of Catholics in the Democratic Party. I am one. We can have Pride without attacks. The popularity of attacks on the Church will do harm to the Party. The pews in this church are full and the calls for her to leave the pulpit came from the congregation.
Spazito
(50,338 posts)must be called out and done in front of the congregation and not behind closed doors, imo.
hunter
(38,311 posts)I'm not shy in my criticisms of the Catholic Church but I've not been kicked out yet.
I've seen what that might be like. My mom was physically expelled from a Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah's Witnesses by big guys acting as bouncers and told she was no longer one of them. (She'd previously had her own struggles with the Catholic Church, which is how she ended up a Witness. The Witnesses didn't want her around because she couldn't stay out of politics.)
No, I've never stood up and offered rebuttal to a hateful homily, but damn, I've heard a few of them, especially in the Republican parishes of California.
The Church is being destroyed from within by these hateful "conservative" Catholics. If that's what ends the Church, then so be it.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence mock the un-Christian aspects of the Church that need some serious mocking.
I don't respect ANY religion that worships tiny hateful gods.
So many of these religions claim to worship the One True God, but it's absolutely clear to me that many of these tiny gods they worship are cruel and capricious assholes.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Isn't that rich. An affront to and an attack on. Seems those are 2 things the Catholic church is WELL versed in.
"The pews in this church are full and the calls for her to leave the pulpit came from the congregation."
Yeah, because it says right in the bible if you disagree with another parishioner boo them and expel them by force from the house of God!
Guess judge no lest ye be judged doesn't apply to catholics huh.
progressoid
(49,990 posts)Hekate
(90,681 posts)I hope it would give you something to think about, regarding the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. I learned a lot about them from Arrellanos kind words and from a subsequent feature article about their work. I tell you, they brought me to tears.
I have to admit that I knew nothing about them except they dressed up as parody nuns. Now I know more.
They really are a charitable organization, and they grew out of the pain and desolation of the AIDS crisis. When so few would help or acknowledge AIDS patients, when so many wanted to ignore the mass deaths well, they opened their hearts and waded in. As they still do today, raising funds, giving spiritual yes, spiritual solace.
I have a problem with linking to the LA Times my links only seem to last 24 hours, that is, until the next edition comes out. But I will try to hunt these up and give you the info I can, and I hope you or someone else can do better than I.
Hekate
(90,681 posts)May 19, 2023 Los Angeles Times
Gustavo Arellano
If youre a right-wing Catholic in the United States who professes to follow the way of Christ, what should you do in these troubled days?
Should you go down to the U.S.-Mexico border to help asylum seekers waiting to come in the latest in the waves of Catholic immigrants who have replenished church pews in this country since the days of Lord Baltimore?
Should you visit homeless people and offer them food, clothing and shelter to fulfill the passage in the Gospel of Matthew that heaven will come to those who provide such care to the stranger?
Should you give solace to the meek, alms to the poor, comfort the shunned people Jesus surrounded himself with and advocated for again and again?
*****
The Sisters, who are mostly men, dress as nuns, give themselves bawdy names and are dedicated to the promulgation of universal joy and the expiation of stigmatic guilt, according to their website, while spreading a message of acceptance and charity.
******
Heres an idea, Dodgers President Stan Kasten: Invite the people who actually follow the tenets of Catholicism.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence originated in San Francisco in the early days of the AIDS epidemic. Their dress was intended to mock the religious zealots who condemned them to hell, even as they tended to AIDS patients when few others would and raised money for refugees and the citys poor. That legacy of giving is something the L.A. Sisters chapter continues. In the past year alone, theyve done fundraisers for animal rescue barns, clothing drives, childrens story times and Long Beachs St. Marys Medical Center and St. Lukes Episcopal Church.
What would Jesus do? What the Sisters do.
Sure, their performances can be out there but thats what drag is, and they play to the crowd in front of them, whether its adults or kids. Besides, laughing at how nuns dress or satirizing Catholic rituals is a time-honored tradition in American humor just ask anyone who has attended a parochial school. Gosh, the Bill Donohues of the world better not see reruns of Sally Field in The Flying Nun or Molly Shannons old Catholic schoolgirl skits on Saturday Night Live!
That right-wing Catholic activists would target an organization like the Sisters shows how un-Catholic they ultimately are. If these self-described warriors for Holy Mother Church want to defend the faith, they should start by attacking the American bishops and cardinals who covered up for pedophile priests for decades and are still fighting sex abuse survivors who want justice but that would take an actual backbone.
******
https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/latimes/default.aspx?token=42e23962a5d74614be16bae3d62d13e7&utm_id=98252&sfmc_id=1778350&edid=91c35a21-cd60-4cd9-bd90-6f11867a94f8
Hekate
(90,681 posts)Angelenos Go To Bat for drag outfit Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence
Los Angeles Times
Page A1
May 20, 2023
With their kabuki white face paint, electric blue humor and black medieval garb, the satirical nuns of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have long been Californias most recognizable drag outfit and among its oldest queer service groups.
Since 1979, tricksters in habits have ministered at gay bars, passed the plate for AIDS and cancer, officiated same-sex marriages and given succor to queer homeless youth.
Yet, until this week, the order had remained largely cloistered from the national anti-drag culture wars.
*********
The outcry over the drag nuns began in the Midwest, with a call-in campaign led by the conservative advocacy organization CatholicVote. ******* He went on to accuse the Sisters of taunting the women religious who serve the poor in Southern California and around the world a charge the group rejects in the strongest terms.
We are not anti-Catholic, said Sister Unity, a founding member of the Los Angeles Order, who was to be honored at Dodger Stadium. Being anti-Catholic would be anti-people, and thats not what we do.
Rather, the order draws inspiration from Catholic nuns alongside religious sisters of many other faiths serving the needy who are neglected by others because of their sexuality or gender expression, according to the Sisters and scholars and acolytes of the group.
Many Sisters feel theres a difference between what theyre doing and what drag performers do, said Melissa M. Wilcox, a professor of religious studies at UC Riverside and author of Queer Nuns: Religion, Activism, and Serious Parody. The Sisters are actually emulating nuns. Theyll say, Were nuns because we do the work that nuns do.
That work includes decades of charity, outreach, education and bar ministry in gay communities around the world. It also includes provocative monikers, such as Sister Porn Again and Sister Mary F Poppins, as well as outlandish garb, chaotic pronouns and flip exhortations to go forth and sin some more.
I like to think of [the habit] as a bonfire or a lighthouse, so that light can shine out into places where there are no resources and there isnt a strong community, Sister Unity said.
***********
Theyre the tricksters of the movement they make us laugh, and laughing is powerful, said Catholic activist Rosa Manriquez, who lives near Dodger Stadium. I doubt theres any nun worth her ruler and her rosary whos upset about the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
To be sure, the order has a long history of provoking the church most recently in 2009, when two Sisters in habit took Communion from the archbishop of San Francisco.
**********
But what could have been the ballclubs Bud Light moment transformed instead into an impassioned defense of one of the worlds most outré drag communities. ****** Some, like Manriquez, the Catholic activist, see the skirmish as an early conflict in a larger war to come. The population that I work with all supported the Dodgers, she said. Progressive Catholic organizations are allowing extremist conservative organizations to be the official voice of Catholicism, when that is not true.
*********
https://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/latimes/default.aspx?token=42e23962a5d74614be16bae3d62d13e7&utm_id=98252&sfmc_id=1778350&edid=91c35a21-cd60-4cd9-bd90-6f11867a94f8
Oneironaut
(5,494 posts)Such is the life of a social minority in the US. Shut up and listen to me talk about how much I hate you, and, if you respond in any way, then, youre just a troublemaker!
niyad
(113,302 posts)it would not need to be affronted. The Crusades. The Inquisition. The Burning Times. The torture and murders of the Indigenous, inckuding the residential schools. The Magdalene Laundries. The ongoing pedophilia and ongoing coverup of same. The endless misogyny, including lack of complete healthcare for women in the catholic-owned medical systems.
It is true that there are many catholic Democrats. It is also true that the rcc is a very flawed system, with little incentive to change.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)And why should anyone care if they mock the Church?
The Priest should stop being an evil, hateful bigot targeting minority groups while being part of an organization that covers up child rape.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)All the long, in fact.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)
and the Catholic clergy are a bunch of child molesters.
There. That puts it into perspective.
Initech
(100,071 posts)Other countries do. And it's time to start taking it seriously. We have hatemongerers in Congress and other higher levels of government and they're trying to make their brand of hate public policy. It's truly sickening.
I'm glad there are people speaking out about it now.
Emile
(22,731 posts)trying to hold on to what they got.
edhopper
(33,579 posts)LBGT people belong to churches that hate them?
(I actually do, but I think they need to find a place that welcomes them)
milestogo
(16,829 posts)That's why they covered up for all the pedophiles. You can't ruin a man, even a priest, by accusing him of nasty things.
Even if they're true.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)There are six congregations in Ohio that are members of the Supportive Communities Network. Granted, they're Mennonite and Church of the Brethren congregations, so if you're jonesing for Catholic ritual and high church liturgy, you're out of luck. But the love and acceptance might be enough to offset that.
Deep State Witch
(10,426 posts)My husband left the Catholic Church because of bullshit like this. He switched to Episcopalian, where they welcome LGBTQ+ people. The Unitarians are also very accepting of Queer folks.
I'm a Wiccan, so I don't really have a dog in this hunt. I'm just sharing his experience.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)dembotoz
(16,804 posts)that was the easy thing for me to do
had my minister gone batshit like this priest yea i might have gotten confrontational
But the general right slant of his ministry put my faith there is hospice for an extended time.
I just stopped going Probably wasn't even missed.