'Terrible mistake': human rights groups decry sending cluster bombs to Ukraine

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Joe Biden has been condemned by human rights groups after he approved sending widely banned cluster munitions to Ukraine, with one fellow Democrat branding the decision “unnecessary and a terrible mistake”.

Cluster munitions are prohibited by more than 100 countries. They typically scatter numerous smaller bomblets over a wide area, sometimes as big as a football pitch, and can kill indiscriminately. Those that fail to explode threaten civilians, especially children, for decades after a conflict ends.

Biden defended what he said was a “difficult decision”, but added he had made the move because the Ukrainians were running out of ammunition.

In an interview with CNN, he said: “This is a war relating to munitions. And they’re running out of that ammunition, and we’re low on it and so, what I finally did, I took the recommendation of the defense department to – not permanently – but to allow for this transition period, while we get more 155 weapons, these shells, for the Ukrainians.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/terrible-mistake-human-rights-groups-decry-sending-cluster-bombs-to-ukraine/ar-AA1dA1HQ

[DURHAM D]

1. So the Russians have already dumped thousands of duds everywhere in Ukraine but

we are supposed to continue this ultimate wrestling fight with Marcus of Queensberry rules? Got it.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

5. Russia used chemical weapons, lets give them that too! And all the napalm bombs too! Hua!

[AkFemDem]

6. Nukes! I vote nukes. You get a nuke! You get a nuke!

We all get nuked!

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

10. Cleaning out the dusty, rusty old bombs, for your shiny new bombs! Buy Textron stock, today!

[flying rabbit]

14. +1

Some people are too wrapped up in their moral high ground to get it.

[malaise]

2. I agree - it is madness

Rec

[Alexander Of Assyria]

24. Apparently abandoning the moral high ground on banned weapons isn't a problem anymore!

[AkFemDem]

3. Our friends and allies

Banned them in 2008. It’s interesting to note who doesn’t participate in the ban.

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-the-deadly-legacy-of-cluster-bombs/a-62133429

[AkFemDem]

4. Also- Ukraine has been using cluster bombs throughout this war

They’re not the game-changer people are predicting on some other threads. Not in the way they’d like to think anyway…

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I would prefer we not send them but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. Yeah no need, some other civilian will.

[Celerity]

22. +1

[Happy Hoosier]

28. Yes, much better for the Russians to kill civilians with indescriminate attacks.

It's pretty easy to sit on a moral high horse when someone else is dying I guess.

[haele]

21. However, you can open the shells of the ones we are sending and arm drones with individual bombs.

They're also not the brightly colored butterfly types the Soviets developed that look like bits of toys; the US versions look like grenades by MILSPEC design so as not to confuse civilians or children that might come across them.

What's really ironic is that the Russians have dropping or firing their butterfly style cluster bombs around Ukrainian urban areas since late February of 2022, but now that the US is supplying cluster bombs, they are are horrific.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/03/10/russia-reportedly-blocks-ukrainian-evacuation-route-with-air-dropped-butterfly-mines/

The tactical use for cluster bombs is to destroy ammo dumps, groupings of trucks, refueling facilities, and flight lines. That is how Ukraine used the the old stockpile of cluster bombs they have - against military targets. They're asking the US to replenish what they have used.

Cluster bombs, like all munitions, are deadly and terrifying. But so is trying to defend oneself without the ability to remove the opponent's ability to attack.

I find the sudden rush from the usual suspects to push almost a word for word common narrative linking an "introduction" of cluster bombs and horrific when pointing out the US provision of cluster style munitions while totally ignoring the continuing use of Russian Butterfly Cluster in Ukraine.

Sounds a lot like propaganda.

Cluster munitions are disruptive to military logistics and infrastructure locations when used tactically in war - and are horrific war crimes when used against a civilian population. Just as chemical and radiologic warfare is. Like the use of all weapons in war.

Haele

[Alexander Of Assyria]

25. Fit for tat makes all the civilians go dead...I am with UN and humanitarian agencies...who isn't??

[haele]

27. Understood.

But Ukraine still has a right to defend itself, and if they aren't signatories to the non-binding promise not to use cluster munitions - it's not a UN ban, you know, or Russia would have been sanctioned by the UN for what they did in Syria, Georgia, and Chechnya over a decade ago - it is their right to ask from another nation for the type of military aid they need.

I think butterfly cluster bombs, land mines, chemical and radiologic weapons should be banned.

But I know my feelings have no say in how Ukraine determines is the best way to protect itself fighting an enemy currently occupying territory it considers part of its sovereign territory. They don't want to kill their own civilians living there, they want to destroy enemy attack infrastructure, and cluster bombs are a quicker, safer way to take out something like an airfield or flight line in one's own territory with the least amount of casualties.

Haele

[Alexander Of Assyria]

31. Cluster bombs are banned for a reason. Monstrous. Ofc the Pentagon will make a PowerPoint

presentation to get more money for anything…if a nation uses these weapons it’s a war crime!

But…America isn’t member of ICJ, at insistence of Pentagon, so it’s all good!

[Emrys]

32. "if a nation uses these weapons it's a war crime"

From the UN (my bold):

The UN human rights office said on March 11 that it had received "credible reports" of several cases of Russian forces using cluster bombs in Ukraine, adding that indiscriminate use of such weapons might amount to war crimes.

"Due to their wide area effects, the use of cluster munitions in populated areas is incompatible with the international humanitarian law principles governing the conduct of hostilities," UN spokesperson Liz Throssell told journalists in Geneva.

"We remind the Russian authorities that directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, as well as so-called area bombardment in towns and villages and other forms of indiscriminate attacks, are prohibited under international law and may amount to war crimes," she added.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-cluster-bombs-ukraine-war-crimes/31748612.html

So your assertion is incorrect as a matter of law. To reiterate that, here's Human Rights Watch last year:

IS USING THEM A WAR CRIME?

Use of cluster bombs itself does not violate international law, but using them against civilians can be a violation. As in any strike, determining a war crime requires looking at whether the target was legitimate and if precautions were taken to avoid civilian casualties.

“The part of international law where this starts playing (a role), though is indiscriminate attacks targeting civilians,” Human Rights Watch’s associate arms director Mark Hiznay told The Associated Press. “So that’s not necessarily related to the weapons, but the way the weapons are used.”

WHAT’S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE?

Russian forces have “most definitely” used cluster bombs in Ukraine, Human Rights Watch’s Hiznay said.

He pointed to at least two instances: a missile attack that hit outside a hospital in the town of Vuhledar on the first day of the invasion last week. and another Monday on Ukraine’s second largest city, Kharkiv, with a population of 1.4 million.

Hiznay retweeted photos of what he said was unexploded 9N235 cluster submunitions scattered around in Kharkiv. Human Rights Watch said four people were killed in the Vuhledar strike.

Rights groups have said three people were killed after Russian cluster bombs hit near a pre-school in the northeastern city of Okhtyrka. The open-source intelligence group Bellingcat says that its researchers found cluster munitions in that strike as well as multiple cluster attacks in Kharkiv.

Amnesty International said Russian forces have a “shameful record of using cluster munitions in populated areas.”

Justin Bronk, a research fellow at Royal United Services Institute, a London defense think tank, said images of munitions parts recovered from residential areas of Kharkiv are “concrete evidence” that Russia is using cluster bombs.

“Their use suggests the Russians are trying to break morale, inflict terror on the on the civilian population and the defenders in order to try and force a negotiation or just retreat,” he said.

Russia denies using cluster munitions in Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-afghanistan-israel-syria-europe-4ac7b012f2b63567ffde368f65283921

So Ukraine has undertaken not to use the weapons supplied in civilian areas or on Russian national territory.

It also keeps records of where it sows minefields - which the Russians don't - and has undertaken to keep logs of areas where Ukrainian cluster munitions are used to facilitate later precautions and clean-up - whereas Russia has been denying that it's even used them.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

33. And then there's this....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cluster-munitions-explainer-1.6899740

[Emrys]

34. What about it?

You said you were in line with humanitarian organizations. I've just quoted humanitarian organizations' words to correct your misconception.

The article at your link reiterates that almost verbatim:

Is using them a war crime?

Use of cluster bombs itself does not violate international law, but using them against civilians can be a violation. As in any strike, determining a war crime requires looking at whether the target was legitimate and if precautions were taken to avoid civilian casualties.

"The part of international law where this starts playing [a role], though, is indiscriminate attacks targeting civilians," Human Rights Watch's associate arms director Mark Hiznay told The Associated Press. "So that's not necessarily related to the weapons, but the way the weapons are used."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cluster-munitions-explainer-1.6899740

[Alexander Of Assyria]

35. Surely another military at war supplied with monster weapons will use them properly!

And if these aren’t enough, what next, tactical nukes?

America is on the wrong side of the ethical and moral fence on this one, ask any NATO ally…Canada want even consulted?? What a slap to the face.

[Emrys]

36. It sounds like you don't agree with supplying Ukraine with any weapons at all

since you evidently think they can't be trusted with them.

I don't think you'll find that a majority opinion. Put it to the test if you want.

[Alexander Of Assyria]

37. Strawman.

[Emrys]

38. Huh? Not at all. Make your mind up and stop shifting the goalposts from one post to the next.

Your own words:

Surely another military at war supplied with monster weapons will use them properly!

These cluster weapons are far from the most destructive that have been supplied to Ukraine.

Nor is this new for those who've been paying attention and not suddenly discovered another reason for grandstanding outrage about this horrible war. Russia has been using them all along, as it always has in any conflict it's been involved in since they were invented. Last year, Turkey supplied them to Ukraine.

And if these aren’t enough, what next, tactical nukes?

Now, that's a strawman!

To summarize:

You said your position was backed up by the UN and humanitarian organizations and then stated categorically that using cluster munitions is a war crime.

I corrected you on those assertions by quoting their own words, and your response was to quote Human Rights Watch's own same words back at me, which wasn't much of a debate!

[BeyondGeography]

8. CMC report a year ago: Russia uses cluster bombs 'extensively'

Russia has widely used cluster bombs in Ukraine, causing hundreds of civilian casualties and damaging homes, schools and hospitals, a monitoring body said in a report published Thursday.

A convention established in 2008 prohibits the use, transfer, production and stockpiling of cluster weapons. While the convention has 110 state parties and 13 other signatories, neither Russia nor Ukraine is a party to it.

The 100-page report comes as parties to the convention prepare for a 10th annual meeting from August 30 in Geneva.

Hundreds of cluster munition attacks by Russian forces have been documented, reported or alleged since Russia invaded Ukraine, the Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC) said.

https://amp.dw.com/en/russia-uses-cluster-bombs-extensively-in-ukraine-report-says/a-62927491

[BlackSkimmer]

9. Doesn't make it right.

In fact, it makes it even more wrong.

Amazing to me how many here are all in favor of this reprehensible decision. Our own administration spoke out about it a few years ago.

[Emrys]

11. What you can't seem to accept over numerous threads

Last edited Sun Jul 9, 2023, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

is that these munitions are intended to help take out Russian entrenchments which are already shielded by massive minefields and other unexploded munitions.

It's not like the Ukrainians are going to be aiming them at virgin land or school playgrounds.

[BlackSkimmer]

16. Not at all sure what you mean by "what I can't accept". I do not accept the use of cluster bombs.

Nor will I ever do so.

Not at all sure what you mean by "virgin land" either.

Never even seen your name before so it's fascinating that you are following me "over numerous threads". But, hey!

But dear, if you think these horrid "munitions" will not end up killing innocent people, we just disagree.

History will show what happens with this decision. And it already has.

[Emrys]

19. I pay attention to Ukraine and threads about it.

We have actually interacted before, not that your lapse of memory matters. Like when you were apparently unaware earlier today that international efforts to demine areas of Ukraine are already underway (I can give you a link if you need a reminder).

And please don't "dear" me, it doesn't make you look good or clever.

"Virgin" land in this context means land not already littered with death-dealing armaments at the hands of the Russians.

To repeat myself, these munitions will be used to attack and clear trenches in heavily mined areas on the Russian fronts, saving Ukrainian military lives that don't have the luxury of effective air support as they repel forces bent on genocide.

The Ukrainians don't have munitions to waste.

And what the heck is this supposed to mean? - "History will show what happens with this decision. And it already has."

History has already occurred?

[BeyondGeography]

12. Disagree

Ukraine is trying to recapture its own lands and these weapons will be deployed against an invader who has used them extensively. If you can show me data indicating they’ve killed a significant number of their own civilians in the process of fighting this wholly justified war, you’d have an argument.

[BlackSkimmer]

17. Wow, you don't remember all the threads about the horror of cluster bombs that Saddam was using?

I remember all those.

Why should I need to show you that "they've killed a significant number of their own civilians"? Can you tell me please what is a "significant" number? How many children must be maimed or killed?

Feel free to google the carnage that cluster bombs have caused.

Please give me the number and then you'll have an argument. Ugh.

I wonder if you'd like cluster bombs dropped all over your state, or any state...hmm?

Done here.

[BeyondGeography]

18. This isn't a unilateral war of choice by a foreign power

Well actually it is if you’re talking about Russia.

For Ukraine, this is a clear case of self-defense and they have every incentive to protect civilians which they have done for 500 days now. Your thinking is plainly muddled here.

“The quickest way to end a war is to lose it.” -George Orwell

Russia must lose in Ukraine.

Biden made the right call.

[kentuck]

13. It's a moral decision.

And who makes moral decisions during a war?

[TheProle]

23. People with morals.

[W_HAMILTON]

20. Do you think Ukrainians want to bomb their own citizens?

Of course not.

Having said that, any Russians invading and occupying their country are fair game. I have no problem using these sorts of munitions in Ukraine, by Ukraine, because they will inevitably be targeting Russians that shouldn't be there to begin with.

[Hortensis]

26. Cluster munitions are still manufactured -- and in many nations that have

taken a stand against their use.

How do most Ukrainians still there and who have been forced to flee Russia's intention to erase their nation and them with it view the moral issue of cluster munitions use?

People with nothing personal at stake who take moral stances without examining what their potential consequences would be for those who have everything at stake, or what their choices would be and why, need to return to square one and do that.

In this case, that means the people who are being attacked with weaponry including cluster munitions by the Russian invaders and who will also bear the greater risk to themselves and their loved ones from using them against the Russians.

Also, it's the ROLE of human rights groups to take the kind of big positions they do based on their ideologies. It's not their job to take a stand on how to help the Ukrainian people survive and beat back the invaders. There are good, moral people working both, seemingly conflicting roles, and the two shouldn't be confused with each other.

Something else to know: Cluster munitions are currently manufactured in dozens of nations, including some nations that have signed the ban on their use, and are sold to nations and paramilitary groups around the planet. We are currently very FAR from eliminating their use on humanitarian grounds. As mentioned above, Russia has been using them along with a large variety of explosive munitions and missiles short and long-range in Ukraine. Russia is not expected to ever run out of weaponry; Ukraine is the one running out of munitions.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

29. Munitions wont win this war, air superiority could but Ukraine will never have that, ever

Russia is too big, Ukraine is too small, and giving them a handful of F-16s wont matter either

So prop them up, send our munition factories into overdrive, to make billions more for U.S. stockholders!

and the war machine industrial complex rumbles on, to the next 20 year war, same as it ever was...

[WarGamer]

30. +1000 nt

[AntivaxHunters]

39. I'm really against us doing this

This shouldn't be happening & I'm rather sad & upset that it is.
There's good reason why these weapons are outlawed & use of them is considered a war crime. They've been shown to harm innocent lives in an epic scale. Nah, I'm not about it at all..

This shit should have been destroyed ages ago.