I have to get this rant off my chest!!!!!!!

[Scottie Mom]

I HATE Microsoft products!!!!!!!!

I am sitting here tearing my hair out!!!!!!!!

[brooklynite]

1. Rants notwithstanding, not very informative.

What software; what's the problem?

[Scottie Mom]

4. Anything from MS sucks

I have had it today. If I EVER had to use MS Word or MS 365 again, I will permanently retire. What total pieces of crap for legal work. Especially Word for legal pleadings -- you have to fight to keep pages together, keep typing on line with pleading paper numbers.

I wish to hell these Bill Gates had stayed out of the document and legal drafting software!!!!!

[haele]

9. Word Perfect used to be the default for legal documents and forms.

The problem with MS products is that if you're not a specialty or power user, or know VIsual Basic, it's difficult to keep up with the micro- processes needed to build specific documents (with appendices, references, etc) and forms.
I used to make little power point briefs with screen-caps as a deskbook just to do all the objects, references, and specialty actions for electronic docs and interactive reports and training materials.
The advanced "For Dummies" books used to be a great help.
But still, unless you're doing these sorts of things weekly, it's easy to forget.

Haele

[Scottie Mom]

25. I do Word Perfect daily

I have a lot of old timer attys, like me, who also hate Word.

Interestingly now, I have new admittees who prefer WP over MS Word.

[SYFROYH]

41. I didnt know they still made Word Perfect.

[Scottie Mom]

42. Absolutely still around and lots of us legal drafters use it instead of MS Word.

In fact, WP was recently updated. Nothing much new to see...still easy and not complex to use and no fighting with it to make it do what you want it to do.

However, the best part is that I have my original WP disks from 2012 and they work on all of the MS operating systems all the way up to Windows 11. No need to download from the internet. So for the minimal price I paid years ago, I have downloaded WP in a ton of computers and taught attorneys and their staff what legal word processing is really is all about.

[Ms. Toad]

13. Bite the bullet and get a good book on MS Word.

It's actually much more sophisticated than WordPerfect (which I used to defend to the death).

I was forced to switch to Word when I was clerking for an appellate court which exclusively used Word. I invested a significant amount of time learning how to use it properly - and now I like it far better than WordPerfect (including for legal documents).

But it was not intuitive, and had the steepest learning curve I had encountered when I made the switch in 1998. You also have to invest some time in developing templates. But once you do there's no more fighting.

I'll see if I can find the book I used. (Courses were worthless - most instructors I encountered don't really understand Word).

[Scottie Mom]

26. I do a ton of appellate work and I still hate MS Word.

Word is cumbersome and has useless features for the law office.

And the auto Widow/orphan feature drives me nuts! I use shift-F1 all of the time to get something approaching reveal codes to stop the widow/orphan feature and to keep typing on line re exactly 12 pt and 24 pt for single and double spacing. Just so cumbersome and so not user friendly...and the resulting appearance of Word docs looks like a HS term paper.

[Ms. Toad]

30. It isn't the level of legal work that matters

It is whether you understand Word. Once you understand Word, it is much more nuanced and powerful.

The problems you mention are easily solved once you understand how Word works. Word definitely isn't user friendly in terms of the learning curve. Once you master the learning curve it is much more stable and precise than WordPerfect. Your challenge (and that of everyone else - including many who teach it) is that everyone tries to use it like WordPerfect (reveal codes) - including me when I started. It simply doesn't work that way. You set up styles that govern appearance - and once set up they work reliably pretty much permanently.

I was dragged to Word kicking and screaming from WordPerfect. I decided that since I had no choice, I needed to invest the time in learning how to use it. I expected to be able to begrudgingly tolerate it. Now that I know how it works, I'd never go back. When I open old WordPerfect docs and click on reveal codes the orphaned, duplicate, etc. codes explain numerous really odd things that happened in WordPerfect docs.

[Scottie Mom]

32. Oh, I understand Word.

It is the worst document processing system in the over 50 years I have done legal processing and I started on an IBM Selectric and then Word Star. I totally understand the internal workings of word processing systems. I have used both MS Word and Word Perfect for many years.

Word is far, far less stable and precise than WP. For instance...why is widow/orphan always on and the user has no option to keep it off and decide whether it is necessary? And single space and double space? They do not fit on line on 28 line legal pleading paper. The adjustment has to be made to EXACTLY 12pt (single) or 24pt(double) instead of with WP where it is on line and spaces equally to each of the 28 lines of pleading paper, no adjustments needed.

I do not use Word like Word Perfect because, well, Word Perfect IS perfect and MS Word is totally flawed for processing legal documents correctly.

The more time I invested in Word, the more I disliked it. Why make word processing so difficult to where practiced legal secretaries will put out pleadings that look like the were done by a beginning typist on a manual typewriter.

I have converted new atty after new atty to Word Perfect and they amazed they ever used MS Word. I will say, however, one must and should be proficient in MS Word because some law offices have no clue how to use anything else and put out pleadings such as Joint Witness and Exhibit Statements which are mandated for use by the trial courts. When I get one of these abominations from another office, I then have to go through and reformat everyone of these horrible MS Word documents before I will submit it to the Court for filing with our content. These Word documents are, in appearance, something that should never be put before a court if one cares about how a document looks.

Again, I HATE Word! Do I have to use it? Yes, at times, but I still cannot understand the preference for this totally flawed software product.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

34. You can turn off widow/orphan

Took one Google search to find this--and no need to click on another web page. It's right there as my first entry:

1. Select the paragraph(s) in which you want to control widow and orphan.
2. On the Format menu, click Paragraph, and then click the Line and Page Breaks tab (My tip: you can also right click your mouse to get to the paragraph popup).
3. Select the Widow/Orphan control check box.

As for the font size/spacing issue...

You have a couple of options here that are much simpler than what you seem to be doing.

Option 1: In my experience from having to format a scary variety of academic papers, the fastest and easiest way to format a Word doc is at the *end,* when it only requires selecting multiple paragraphs to format differently from the main body of text.

Let's say that most of your doc is 24 pt double space, but you have some other paragraphs that need to be 12 pt single space, indented.

This is much easier to do at the end.

1. Select the paragraph(s) you want to switch to 12 pt single space indented.

2. In the *document* menu bar, click on the font size to switch all of them to 12.

Then for the paragraphs...

1. Select the paragraphs you want to format differently (if they're not already).
2. On the Format menu, click Paragraph, and then choose your spacing and indents on that menu.

And you're done in a few clicks/keystrokes.

Option 2: Someone mentioned templates, and that's a good idea for some tasks, like setting up that unique legal heading for different courts. For other legal tasks, templates can't account for things like switching in and out of different fonts, font sizes, spacing, indents, and so on, multiple times per doc.

That's when you make friends with macros. For instance, have a macro for a paragraph 24pt double-spaced, and then another for 12pt single-spaced with 1" left and right indent, and then switch between them as you go with a couple of keystrokes. I haven't used macros since WP, but Google can get you started on that as well:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-e&q=creating+macros+in+word

So it's not all that complicated to navigate Word, if you let Google be your guide when you need to solve/fix something: "How to add columns of numbers in a Word table," "How to sort a list in Word," "How to align columns in Word," and so on.

[Scottie Mom]

39. Like I said...

...Word is cumbersome and wastes one's time.

Formatting is done at the beginning of a document...except Word without consent and/or agreement of the user changes the formatting so that one has to fight it over and over...even when done and trying to re-format so the pleading does not look like a HS term paper.

[kabi knit]

16. Hello Scottie Mom

I am in agreement with both 'haele' and 'Ms. Toad' (just above). MS Word has a rather steep learning curve AND can be rather troublesome and even finicky at times. Consider returning to this series of comments in the hope that 'Ms. Toad' finds "that" (explainer) textbook she detailed.

[MineralMan]

20. Where did you get your pleading template?

How are you typing on the numbering line?

I'm thinking you need a course on using Word. If you're creating specialized documents, you need a good template and knowledge about how Word works. Word can do anything, but you do have to know how the software works.

Pleading templates for every possible jurisdiction are available. Some are free. Some are not.

[Scottie Mom]

27. I don't use pleading templates because if they are from Word the formatting is always wrong.

I make my own templates. A pain in the butt in Word and quick, easy in Word Perfect.

I could teach Word and have done so to people who have no clue on how to get the typing on line with the number lines of pleading papers and who cannot seem to make widow/orphan go away.

[GreenWave]

2. Linux?

Just a thought.

[ItsjustMe]

3. .

[Scottie Mom]

5. I have no clue what that is.

[GreenWave]

6. British alternative to Microsoft.

They have different systems.
If you do one of the free operating systems make sure in has LTS (long term support)

[Scottie Mom]

7. I don't mind the MS operating systems but do have to say

Windows 10 and 11 are horrible.

I liked and still like 7 and found it much more user friendly.

[getagrip_already]

17. Linux is not british..British... lol

Linux is just an x86 port of Unix, which actually predates windows, and it is very much an american invention.

And Linux is an operating system, not an application.

And, Microsoft applications are actually very good, but very general put of the box.

There are however several open source alternatives if you want to go the gnu route.

[GreenWave]

22. I must have made a leap of faith when I checked out UBUNTU

Ubuntu headquarters and office locations
Ubuntu is headquartered in London, 5, Blue Fin Bldg, 110 Southwark St, United Kingdom, and has 2 office locations.

Sorry about that.

[getagrip_already]

24. Yeah, that's one of about 20 distros available.......

They are all called Linux at the root, but they aren't necessarily the same branch.

Some of the desktop editions are getting very good. But I still prefer winders....... just habit more than anything else.

[ItsjustMe]

8. The Linux operating systems currently have about 3% of the worldwide market.

Linux fanboys have basically the same mindset as Trump supporters.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/14ykxk1/lets_go_guys_weve_broken_the_3_mark_on_desktop/.

Linus Torvalds: “Microsoft hatred is a disease”
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-torvalds-microsoft-hatred-is-a-disease/

[brooklynite]

10. More like Jill Stein supporters....

It's that "anti-corporate" philosophy.

[Ms. Toad]

14. That doesn't address the problem with Word.

Linux is an operating system, not word processing software.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

35. Good grief, it's not an OS issue.

It's an application issue.

Word works the same across platforms. Some might have more whistles and bells than the others, but the basics like widow/orphan control all work the same.

[kabi knit]

11. Other Stuff

Only when you have the time and the inclination for something 'different' from MS Office...
You might try one OR both of these:

LibreOffice

WordPerfect

[niyad]

12. Welcome to our DU family.

[kabi knit]

15. Thank You So Very Much (n/t)

[Scottie Mom]

28. I started with Word Perfect 4.1 in the 1980s.

Best software there is for word processing.

[ismnotwasm]

18. Well, I sold my soul to Apple, one product at a time.

They are good machines and decent programs though

[ItsjustMe]

19. The Cult of Apple

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

36. Another who doesn't get that it's not an OS or hardware issue

It's a *SOFTWARE* issue. Things like widow/orphan control do not change across the platforms.

Really.

I know this as a long-time Mac user who has had to switch between MS Word for Mac, PC and Linux, for business and academia.

It's not always about one's pet computer choice or OS, you know.

[usonian]

21. Hi Scottie Mom!

You aren't specific enough for people to offer on-point solutions, but I understand your frustration.

MS has been pushing products "to the cloud" apparently with negative effect on both the Windows platform and the "vertical" applications such as law-practice friendly software. As another mentioned, Word Perfect used to be the standard for legal document preparation and was very accommodating to such users. It still exists, but only as a suite of other products (from Corel).

There are alternatives both to the operating system and applications.

My brother, the least computer-savvy person ever, got really tired of the regular windows updates breaking all his drivers, which he had to re-load every time, so he ended up with a linux system from Dell, and supported by Dell, and hasn't looked back.

I supported various unix systems in my work (mostly Sun) and Mac for the business office, and built up familiarity with unix/linux and Mac systems, both of which were and are known for stability, among others. The saying "it just works" goes a long way. The 2010 laptop still runs fine and never crashes nor go off into space.

I upgrade hardware now and then, and the latest $600 M2 Mac mini is a beast for the money and seems to have all the software that most people would ever need. (I get no commission from Apple and the old systems are going to run linux for some programming fun)

Open/Libre office work like MS products, are actually on your computer instead of "the cloud", run on everything, and Apple apps also are compatible with MS Office.

But if you have more specific gripes or needs, the computer support group at DU always has good advice.

[Scottie Mom]

29. Thanks for the info!

I do primarily legal document drafting and processing.

And the BS with the cloud??? What a total mess. Whoever thought this up had to be demented. Put an app on my iPhone to get to documents created on my computer? GMAFB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

37. Oh FFS

What she's discussing is *not* an OS or hardware issue!

How many times must this be drummed into fanboi heads? Microsoft does *not* make radically different versions of software like Word based on platform. How it works under the hood will be different, of necessity, but the basic ways that a user interacts with it is no different. You still go to the same types of menus to do the same tasks, no matter what kind of computer or OS you're using.

Really!

I've used MS Word across multiple OS and hardware options, and the only differences I've ever seen between them are what features they offer--based more on *WHEN* the software came out than on any platform-centric issue. Office for Mac back in 2001 had features that PC Office at the time didn't because the Mac version came out later, and thus had more goodies than the software that came before it. Biggest difference between them? The templates you could get on Power Point for Mac v PC--that was the noticeable one. But the functions of PP software itself worked exactly the same.

Really!

I don't know where people get the idea that a company like Microsoft will develop three unique Office platforms--but they don't. It's a waste of time, effort and money to come up with entirely different programs doing the same stupid thing.

Argh! So annoying that people don't understand computer basics like these.

[usonian]

38. See ScottieMom's reply #33

Software rarely does what the user wants or needs. Everyone who has coached a beginner knows this.

Vendors write software almost always to be all things to all people, which means that damn near everyone needs to learn a new complex language in effect, to do their task.

In the "beginning" software development was focused on "power users" to get reviews in Byte Magazine. Most people use way less than 1% of features, and aren't aware of simpler alternatives, drowned out by network effects.

Many have adapted to an over-complicated world like a fish to water, and can't see the complexity. Way back when, someone compared DOS to the new Mac GUI, and capped off his argument " But DOS is much more user-friendly!". Familiarity is not the same as fit for purpose.

It's just geek snobbery. I tell everyone who asks for help to use the simplest solution that works, and too often, that's in my or the internet's "secret trove of hacks" to beat software at its own game.

And in summation 😉, complexity bias is one of the countless (Wikipedia lists the first 150 or so) cognitive biases we have. Most aren't aware of them.

Simplicity and fit for purpose are complex to bring about. That's why they are rare, and "geniuses" by their own admission, know us better than we do, so we twist and turn to their prompts and cascading menus. This was from day one, when Bill Gates made decisions for us, cuz he was hecka smarter, and continued in a steady flow of sociopaths leading to Zuck and Musk trying to actively control our lives, directly or indirectly, via ads.

Users be damned. We adapt, just to do simple tasks.

WE are natural. Computers aren't. Yet we adapt to their complexity and obfuscation. Cuz, money matters, nothing else. ❤️

[Scottie Mom]

40. Amen.

Like I said, Bill Gates needed to stay out of document drafting software.

[Blue Owl]

23. With ya

And always have... always will...

[IcyPeas]

31. Long time Word user. can I ask a few questions

I don't know how you use Word. we all use it differently (so no offense meant). You should be able to modify your template to turn off the widow/orphan selection for a whole document or a specific style (e.g., body text). If you use heading styles you may want it turned on for that. Also, you can create your own shortcut keys in Word if one does not already exist.

Do you work with Styles?

Do you know how to Modify Styles?

There's no "reveal codes" per se, but do you work with your Styles Area Pane turned on? The pane on the left that lets you identify which style you are currently in.







Also do you work with your format markings on or off? I always worked with them on, but know people who turned them off.

[Scottie Mom]

33. Yes, I know how to do all of this.

But why should it be a requirement to have a continuous fight with the word processing software which wants to work its way and not your way?

Word has built in styles. Why do I need that? I need a blank piece of paper on my screen that allows me to control it -- and it does NOT control me.

I am so tired of fighting Word and all the crap built into it that now when I am contacted for Trial, Appellate Briefs, Mx's for Summary Judgment, etc., I tell the law firm that if they expect it in MS Word, I will not do the work.

[NowISeetheLight]

43. Office Subscription

I hate the $99 charge yearly. I've got an old Office disk from a decade ago. I wonder if it still works?

[Scottie Mom]

44. Are you asking about MS Word or WordPerfect?

I have WP 12 or maybe 11 on this computer -- downloaded from disks -- and it works perfectly on Windows 10.

MS Word, I know an atty who used 2010 disks he has Windows 10 and it works on that system.

[NowISeetheLight]

45. Word

It's word, excel, PowerPoint and access. I think it's 2010 or 2013.

[Scottie Mom]

46. I know 2010 Word works on a Windows 10 computer

Not sure if the original download from the disks was on a Windows 10 system or if the computer was a Windows 7 with 20210 Word and it just kept working on the new Op system.

[Initech]

47. Funny, I'm a Windows person and I feel that way about Apple products.

The iOS filing system drives me nuts. No I don't want to sync everything with iTunes. I just want to copy and go.

[Scottie Mom]

48. Gads, the continuous request to sign into iTunes drives me crazy!!!!

Some times, IMO, progress is NOT good progress.

[Initech]

49. Yeah that is one major annoyance is the constant nonstop cycle of updates.

You have to update the software, then you have to update the operating system, then you have to update the individual processes. Then you have to update the drivers. Then you have to update the BIOS. Like ahhhhhhhhhh!!! Make it stop already!!

[Scottie Mom]

50. Annoying as all hell.

Just more money in their pockets and less in mine for so much of the updates.