General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSerious question for DUers - re that cruise ship disaster
Given the low wages and reduced benefits for pilots, ships captains and their crews, why should we expect loyalty to either a firm or passengers on an aircraft or ship?
Is the idea of a poorly paid captain remaining loyal to some industry even relevant today?
Isn't it 'every person for him/herself'
Why should I give up my life for a company that demeans my worth on a daily basis; that denies my right to a union, etc.
Discuss
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)malaise
(268,993 posts)This is not about me
This will be interesting. You bring up some valid points.
Doing the right thing is now tied to union membership?
Jesus.
SharonAnn
(13,772 posts)He walked the length of the plane TWICE, making sure no one was left, before he left the plane.
He considered himself a professional captain and assumed the responsibilities that go with that.
I don't know about the cruise ship captain's union status, but he obviously didn't accept the responsibilities.
malaise
(268,993 posts)We reflect the interests of community
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)How?
Swamp Lover
(431 posts)Sully made sure that his passengers and crew were safe before he left his plane. Now he is a strong proponent of organized labor, but his responsibility came first, regardless of how he felt about managment!!!
malaise
(268,993 posts)We take care of others. Is that still true in the era of neo-liberalism where it is every person for him/herself?
Swamp Lover
(431 posts)That is the key to the argument between left and right.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,327 posts)We're not tslking about a customer service clerk at Sears.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)I resemble that remark. Except for the Sears part.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,327 posts)undeterred
(34,658 posts)How come we never hear that part of the story?
There should have been a song about it in the movie!
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)1) You don't know what his salary is, I'm sure it's not minimum wage.
2) Staying with the ship is his job description
3) It's a crime for him to abandon ship
4) Abandoning shows a complete lack of integrity
By the way, a ship's Captain with Costa makes upwards of $120 - $150 K annually not counting benefits.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)Texasgal
(17,045 posts)Don't take a job as a captain if you are not willing to take the responsibility for you passengers. Period.
malaise
(268,993 posts)and everything you said is correct but are we seeing a new mindset
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)What has suddenly changed about humans?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2012, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)
don't invest much emotionally in the job they do? Who knows what happened with this @sshole but something did.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And how does a single anecdote show that at any point in time?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)babylonsister
(171,065 posts)passengers losing their lives through boneheaded negligence. You might have some valid points, but I don't think so in this case.
malaise
(268,993 posts)but I'm not looking at this man the total scumbag. I'm wondering about a new mindset that is as loyal as the employer.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)And, Captains and the Officers are not paid poorly.
And, for everyone else: by accepting the job, they accepted the responsibilities
malaise
(268,993 posts)but they are badly paid and benefits aren't what they used to be
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)I don't understand why you and other posters keep compare someone with a captain's license to a young pilot flying commuter planes. It's two totally different professions in two totally different industries.
They RECRUIT captains.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Do you need others?
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)family. I have been on many cruises and the people like the chefs to the waiters are wonderful people who always take the extra time to make it a pleasant experience. By the way before you leave just like getting on an airplane they gather everyone on where you are suppose to be and they show you how to put a life jacket on. This boat captain failed the people aboard the ship. It would be different if you were working at a starbucks or a walmart and I would agree if your life is put in danger why would you stay there? You owe them nothing. But it is different when your on a plane, train, bus or a ship. You have a responsibility to the clients. The ship's captain should be going to prison for a long time.
freefaller62
(30 posts)When trouble sets in many people aren't cool and calm. They want to save their own asses and to hell with yours. I've seen it. There are a few people who will keep their heads together to help those who are in shock and wetting their pants; they maintain order and keep things moving.
But the Captain was on a ship, a good sized one at that. Despite it's capsizing it would float for a while - but the Captain PANICKED and that was that. I love how he was chewed out by the Coast Guard! His jail time is going to be hell on earth.
I bet we will see new safety procedures implemented after this tragedy. When the integrity of the hull is compromised, I bet they will launch the lifeboats much quicker than before.
malaise
(268,993 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)The Captain is just another human, no more, or less, than the majority of others who panicked.
SunsetDreams
(8,571 posts)I can't answer this because it would SERIOUSLY veer off the topic of this particular incident involving a Cruise.
Let's just say I STRONGLY disagree.
tawadi
(2,110 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,315 posts)I don't know - a search hasn't shown things one way or the other, but the union Nautilus International has been quoted in UK media several times on this story. And I have no idea what the captain or others are paid. A responsible human being, who has received training in the safety procedures, does have an obligation to help those who have not received such training. It's not 'give up ones life', but neither is it 'every person for themselves'.
malaise
(268,993 posts)The more they outsource the less benefits.
But I am actually asking about a mindset re the new industry attitude to employees and the employees attitude to them.
Clearly if you work in service industries and must deal with safety and rescue issues, this is not going to work, but I think we should discuss the implications of 'winner takes all' in business as well.
It does not enhance client safety.
Note - this particular scumbag was a risk taker as well but I'd like us to discuss the general issue.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)They are a ship's captain. The same with the officers. I come from a family background in this, and have current family members who hold captain's licenses.
They make a very good living and have very great responsibility.
boppers
(16,588 posts)What is their work product?
In what way is their job.... not a service?
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)and the passengers all said they were worthless. The employees the passengers give credit to? The low-paid wait & housekeeping staff.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Because I've seen awful reports about what pilots, for example, make today. It's unreal. Being an airline pilot used to mean you made enough money to have a family and a stay at home wife, if she wanted to do that.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)but, whatever.
(I do know that pilots who fly commuter jets make next to nothing, but they are still in charge of the plane & responsible for everyone & everything on board, so yes, they should expect to "go down with the ship."
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)or what the package is for that job or if there is one.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)A Captain's license is a real commodity. As the poster said, captains make bank, especially on cruise ships and tugboats.
You can't compare this to pilots flying commuter jets.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)So, how do you know what this guy made because I don't. I don't know anything about that industry except that they pay entertainers very well.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)even Romney wouldn't give his life for a company.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)But a matter of basic competence for the job he agreed to take. This captain may be a perfect example of the Peter Principle: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle). But he still accepted the pay and perks of his position. If the pay wasn't as high as he liked he probably could have found another position.
The real difficulty I have with the captain is that he did not check out what the problem was when the ship first ran into whatever it ran into, when the power went out, or when the ship began listing. By the accounts I have heard, there was at least 40 minutes in which it was apparent to passengers who had never been on a cruise ship before thought there was a problem before the first announcements were made to begin evacuation. If evacuation had begun 40 minutes earlier, there should have been less panic, fewer problems with lowering lifeboats, and hopefully less loss of life.
The problem I have with your premise is that unions are the antithesis of "every man for himself". Why would someone like this captain who seems to have no awareness of the value of human life have ever considered joining a union? Union members I have met seem to be the types that would sacrifice themselves to help their fellows, not the type that would leave a sinking ship with an unknown number of passengers left onboard.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)That's just straight up callous.
malaise
(268,993 posts)is precisely that.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)passengers in his hand when he decided to become a ship's captain. By your logic, that's like saying that an airplane captain, once he realises that the plane is going to crash is justified in suiting up a baling out in a parachute. My best friend used to work in the cruise industry in the Mediterranean and trust me, where it comes to Captain's salaries, THEY ARE NOT HURTING!
malaise
(268,993 posts)but I grew up in an era where loyalty was a two-way street.
In this new era, I expect to see more scumbags like this one.
Honor and duty should apply to paying taxes as well but the rich no longer believe that is their duty.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)What you're doing is arguing apples Vs Orangutangs. Not even close to making sense. He took he licencing to become a captain and protect passengers BEFORE he hired on to a company.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)this is more a character issue than an employment issue
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)It doesn't matter who cuts the check. Their legal and ethical obligation is to the well-being of the passengers, the crew, and the ship. The Titanic's captain, Cpt. Smith, was last seen climbing to and entering the Bridge. He gave the order to abandon ship, and stayed there until the bitter end.
This line of thinking really is insulting to all the Captains and Ship's Officers out there.
And, to repeat: they are paid very well for this.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)He took on the responsibility willingly.
Since you seem to know how much he makes, why don't you clue us in? He lives in a £175,000 seaside apartment. Nice digs.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)She was asking if this guy was being paid anywhere near enough for the responsibility that goes with his job. That's a fair question given how much jobs like his have been degraded in the last couple of decades or so. I don't know the answer. Do you?
malaise
(268,993 posts)You get it
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)and people haven't noticed yet.
When professionals or skilled tradesmen were valued and payed a sufficient wage to provide for a family. There was a mutual investment that people didn't walk away from or screw up lightly.
That's gone, imo. But it looks like a lot of people haven't noticed and their expectations of how everyone behaves hasn't caught up with the new normal.
malaise
(268,993 posts)that they do not care - who is loyal to nothing
boppers
(16,588 posts)My skill used to earn 6-7 figures a year.
I now make 5 figures.
I haven't abandoned my responsibility, even as the pay has abandoned me.
Money has nothing to do with responsibility, honor, or a person's value to society. The two are not connected.
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts)actions resulted in the loss of human life and potential environmental devastation.
Although his compensation should not be a factor, he was paid $120 - $150 K annually excluding benefits.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Second, it's not only a matter of cash but of course compensation figures in when you ask people to put their lives on the line. Could you say where you got those numbers?
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts)management companies.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)In your opinion, how are career management companies doing these days?
malaise
(268,993 posts)didn't accept responsibility?
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)and it cost hundreds of thousands of people their homes. Mostly minority and blue collar people at that because those communities were targeted for crap loans.
malaise
(268,993 posts)useful.
onenote
(42,702 posts)If he didn't think he was being paid enough he should have quit the job. But its not his choice to take a job that includes responsibility for the passengers and then deciding he doesn't want to do that part of the job.
If a secret service officer decided he didn't want to risk his life protecting the president because he's not paid enough, would anyone defend that decision?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Donald Rumsfeld lied us into a war and got thousands of Amercans killed. His job was defense. FEMA was supposed to help NOLA, not keep rescuers and emergency supplies out. Palin, well, is Palin. lol
The Secret Service is hired to protect our political elite and don't speak to this situation. There is no way they will be short-changed.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)"why should we expect loyalty to... passengers on an aircraft or ship?"
I know the answers to BOTH of those questions.
It's NOT every person for him/herself unless you're a cold and heartless coward.
and
I expect loyalty from a Captain who took his job freely and willingly IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)just that it might be there.
And we expect loyalty from all kinds of people and we don't get it, have you noticed that?
From our lenders, from our employers, from our public servants. From the media. That's something like a breakdown in our social contract, that's all the OP was trying to get to, imo. We expect torturers to be prosecuted and yet, none are. You and I can probably go on and on with examples.
Maybe this guy was just shitfaced. Imo, that's probably what happened. But, there's another context that has more to do with how working people are getting screwed all over the world, in Greece, in the UK, in Ireland, here, and that is going to have consequences. Eventually the 1% is going to see the results of treating working people as if they're not fully human. And it won't only hit the 1%, it will hit all of us in some way.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Okay. While I might agree with the broad notion of the notion that the working class is getting screwed, the proportion of Ships Captains to the working masses is waaay less than 1% and I DON'T think their particular profession is subject to the kinds of disrespect regular people are shown.
This one was obviously overpaid.
SecurityManager
(124 posts)As passengers and crew were still on the ship?
malaise
(268,993 posts)Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)Again this captain took the oath BEFORE he signed up withteh company and part of that oath was to TAKE CARE OF HIS PASSENGERS!! PERIOD.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)As soon as "abandon ship" went out, the Coast Guard was the maritime authority in charge. The Captain LEGALLY had to obey that order. He disobeyed a direct, lawful order.
He has been charged with manslaughter, abandoning ship, and shipwreck. I also still think he had been drinking, while is also illegal.
He is a disgrace to the sea.
Solly Mack
(90,765 posts)I wouldn't try to stop a robber from robbing a store I worked at but I would try and save a life.
There's a clear difference to me.
I get the point of lousy pay and demanding much for nothing wages - but I'd have to help people regardless of my lousy wages.
malaise
(268,993 posts)who would not
Solly Mack
(90,765 posts)and I know you would help.
rucky
(35,211 posts)he could've saved one or more lives
instead, he walked away.
there were passengers on the ship who tried to save people - and maybe some did. And they paid to get on that ship.
Nobody's asking him to be loyal to a company - just to be a basically decent human being.
malaise
(268,993 posts)We know he is no Scully.
Will there be more like him than like Scully as a result of the ideology of self that is promoted everywhere today.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)But seriously, his response was so messed up, it makes me wonder if he was impaired. Because even if you save your own skin, you will never work again and might wind up in prison.
malaise
(268,993 posts)Regardless he must have known the consequences
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)That's what I think.
Because most people do better than that for each other and because training kicks in.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)Being a basically decent human being doesn't have a price tag BUT IS PRICELESS..
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)then saving the people in that situation would probably be what you would do.
The captain probably didn't value the lives of his passengers.
malaise
(268,993 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I am rich compared to most folks in North Korea, but poor compared to Wall Street folks.
I am not completely sure how your question addresses my post.
boppers
(16,588 posts)When shit went down, he bailed.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)I wish I could un-rec this piece of shit thread.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)The poster asked a question about a possible contributing factor, she didn't bless the behavior. Seriously.
malaise
(268,993 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)as security, when they hauled that lady BACK IN to the bank so she could be arrested, for example. Remember teachers who are in reality badly paid interns at private schools who act out all over their students. Remember the firefighters who have watched as houses have burned down, just in the last couple of years.
And consider that something has happened.
malaise
(268,993 posts)but he didn't and I'd like to have an idea how many others think like him and why
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)if the captain thinks he's getting a shitty deal from management, he has the right to take it out on their customers, even if it means imperiling their very lives?
Not going along with that.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)to abandon his passengers?
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)so, he suits up and bails out in a chute, passengers be damned.
malaise
(268,993 posts)I want to know if people care less because there are ReTHUG politicians and ruthlkess capitalists like Romney who see empathy as a bad thing. At what point does this trickle down to employees?
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's not about loyalty to your employer or even the passengers. It's about loyalty to yourself to do the right thing morally.
But people choosing to do the wrong thing isn't exactly anything new. Most people chose to not help Holocaust victims, or to help runaway slaves or more individually centered, people heard Kitty Genovese crying for help and 25 people who walked right past Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax as he lay dying. For an academic look at the same basic phenomenon look at the Milgram experiment.
The captain personally made a choice to do the wrong thing. Many people do, but it's not society's fault. At best society can put you in a position to make the wrong choice, but at the end of the day, the captain is the one who made the choice.
malaise
(268,993 posts)Doing the wrong thing is quite the orthodoxy these days from top to bottom.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)To add to that, the events that led to the accident were not random, a mechanical problem, or an outside malicious act. He was the direct cause of the accident, which should have caused him to feel more responsible, not less.
He also saved himself way before the last moment. He has plenty of time to save some more people and still escape if he was planning on saving his life no matter what.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)That's the example a friend used today. What would happen if the surgeon left with the patient open, and refused to go back?
This situation is even worse, because it was 100% preventable and because 4,000+ lives were at stake, and the death toll is at 11, and will definitely be more like 20-30.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Or like those various stories of fire crews we've read about that stand by and watch a house burn?
Or like how FEMA left survivors in NOLA in toxic trailers and like how a certain foundation send them over to Haiti when they knew those little boxes couldn't be secured against hurricanes or earthquakes?
Like that?
Yeah, what this guy did was horrendous. But it doesn't seem to me to be singular.
malaise
(268,993 posts)kill his wife between surgeries.
What about doctors who sell out needy patients for their insurance companies.
They signed an oath to defend life.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)I suppose you are going to ask next whether it normal to steal from one's employer or assault an annoying coworker.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I guess if you were a selfish and unfeeling asshole you might consider fleeing at the first sign of danger and saying "fuck them" in your mind to the passengers, but I have to think any person with some basic human empathy and sense of personal honor would help their passengers, regardless of what their pay packet was.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)that the less reason people are given to invest emotionally in their jobs, the less they will and the easier it becomes to decide to walk away from people who need help. It's not a good thing but it is a predictable one.
RZM
(8,556 posts)It was to the law and his passengers. The law says he was supposed to stay on board and his passengers were counting on him to do his part to evacuate the ship safely. We can debate whether or not there is a culture of selfishness all night long, but it's neither here nor there when you're talking about the obligations of a ship captain. To say he's a victim of the culture is to excuse his deplorable actions. It's not like people just started traveling on ships yesterday. There is a long tradition of captain's duties and this moron didn't fulfill them. It's as simple as that.
I'm pretty sure your average spring break booze cruise captain isn't a union member, but they still have the same obligations this guy does. He's a disgrace to the nautical community no matter his union status, the company he worked for, or how much money he made.
obliviously
(1,635 posts)What are your silly ones like?
malaise
(268,993 posts)seriouse
add
moriah
(8,311 posts)Low-paid crew members could be forgiven. That man is rolling in dough compared to the rest of us.
Honor. He did not have it. THAT's the difference.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)it's not about "loyalty to an industry". It's about responsibility. It's about leadership. It's about doing your job. It's about not being a fucking coward. The captain has a responsibility, both moral and legal. In the event of an accident or a disaster it's his job to oversee the evacuation of passengers and crew to safety. The captain should be the last man off the ship, not one of the first. If he were the commander of a naval vessel and did something like this? He'd be looking at a very long time in a military prison, and quite rightly so.