Western colonialism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[LymphocyteLover]

Am I the only one who finds the far left framing of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as another example of "western colonialism" deeply wrong-headed and actually kind of offensive?

[paleotn]

1. Yes, since Jews and their cousins have been living and fighting over this section of the Levant for millennia.

They think this animosity just started in 1948?

The West was dragged into it because of three things....oil, WW1 and Cold War geography. I wonder sometimes, it the reaction you mention is latent antisemitism and really has nothing to do with the Palestinians. They sure don't seem to get as animated with the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar (Burma).

[cachukis]

2. Curious as to how Zionism comes to play.

[LymphocyteLover]

3. it's certainly a big part of equation

[cachukis]

9. There is the long term history of the Jewish

diaspora and the short term history of Israel in the modern age.
The Promised Land plays a significant role over time and some Jews managed to flourish outside that realm while others have felt it necessary to return to the region. Nonetheless, it has always been a state within the confines of a more powerful state.

The modern Zion movement still has its opposing viewpoints. The power brokers who brought about the modern state of Israel, had to know, over time the unsettling of the status quo would cause problems. Yet, they continued.

Now we are in a pickle with plenty of blame to cast about.

When broadcasters show a video with the caveat, "we'll talk about it on the other side," could they anticipate the other side of what is unfolding day by day.

Let us hope mistakes can be avoided.

[brush]

38. Bet TPTB wish they could do a "mulligan" (a re-do), and the new nation...

would've had one of its founding tenets be our First Amendment — freedom of religion, the press, speech, assembly and the right to redress grievances — for everyone.

Couldn't be worst than what has resulted over the decades, including this worst ever tragedy now.

[paleotn]

11. And it dates to at least the 6th century BCE (Babylonian captivity) and probably earlier

Their Arab cousins think similar thoughts and for probably as long. But I suppose that fact isn't convenient for some.

[paleotn]

10. Zionism is new?

Umm, no. The Torah / Old Testament is replete with Zionism to at least the Jewish interaction with the Assyrians and Babylonians. Kind of predates us, I think.

[cachukis]

14. If you note, I referred to modern Zion.

[paleotn]

16. And that's different how?

You know, "next year in Jerusalem" is a pretty old saying in the Jewish community.

[cachukis]

18. Times change. The Democrats in the south

during reconstruction are now Republicans.
The Shia and Sunnis of Islam have swapped mantles over their histories.
I suggest we look at the modern influences over a matter rather than ancient ones
For example, most of the young people in America would have a hard time understanding the depression.

Legacy matters, don't get me wrong, but the modern State of Israel has to deal with modernity. Thomas Friedman writes extensively on this. Bibi has played his cards and now has to live with them. David and Goliath are a story that has little pertinence to today.

[Sympthsical]

4. Wait til they find out what apartheid is

I am ever hopeful that eventually someone will pick up a book on South Africa.

Someday maybe.

[Beastly Boy]

5. I find much of the "colonialism" rhetoric of the far left to be an artifact of the 20th century

that is woefully antiquated today.

If it is insulting, it is more so to the far left who find it difficult to adjust their ideology and rhetoric to the 21st century. They seem to be preoccupied with trying to fit their square pegs into the round holes of today's reality. And that applies to more than their views on colonialism.

[leftstreet]

6. There is no "far left" in the US

"Western colonialism" is a term that appears in plenty of writings and discourse that's unrelated to any political ideology

[Beastly Boy]

15. "Western colonialism" is a fairly common topic in academic circles, and

studies or discussions of this topic may or may not have political overtines. However, they do not preclude the existence of the far left as a political group that tends, by choice possibly driven by ideology, to address Western colonialism in antiquated terms.

[LymphocyteLover]

25. There's no far left? Really? Anyway, fairly or not, criticism of colonialism is usually linked

to left-wing academics.

[madaboutharry]

7. No, you are not the only one.

IMO, a lot of what is being said is by people whose understanding of the Middle East is limited to catch phrases, inflammatory vocabulary words, virtue signaling, and a need to fit in politically with friends. They have little understanding of the regions long multi-millennial history of conflict.

[Donkees]

8. PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID

The book is about Palestine, the occupied territories, and not about Israel. Forced segregation in the West Bank and terrible oppression of the Palestinians create a situation accurately described by the word. I made it plain in the text that this abuse is not based on racism, but on the desire of a minority of Israelis to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land. This violates the basic humanitarian premises on which the nation of Israel was founded. My surprise is that most critics of the book have ignored the facts about Palestinian persecution and its proposals for future peace and resorted to personal attacks on the author. No one could visit the occupied territories and deny that the book is accurate.

[paleotn]

12. Has the Hamas leadership read that book? Just curious.

[Mosby]

17. President Carter never claimed that Israel was practicing apartheid

He said it was a possibility if a peace agreement wasn't reached. Hence the title of the book.

Your insinuations about "forced segregation" and "terrible oppression" is nothing more than antisemitic invective.

[former9thward]

36. Carter apologized two years later to the Jewish people.

Former President Jimmy Carter apologized this week for criticizing Israel for its treatment of Palestinians in his writings and comments, statements like calling the Jewish nation an "apartheid" state which, he suggests, may have stigmatized it.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/12/jimmy_carter_apologizes_for_cr.html

[NotVeryImportant]

13. What's the "far left" framing exactly OP?

Can you expound?

[Mosby]

19. I'll play

Zionism is a colonial, imperialist enterprise, Israel was created by white European secular Jews who have no connection to the Middle East and dispossessed millions of Indigenous Palestinians, by engaging in ethnic cleansing, genocide, collective punishment and war crimes, forcing the indigenous Palestinians into bantustans, and denying them basic rights like voting and freedom of movement.

[Beastly Boy]

21. Considering the uncertainty in detecting irony among some DUers,

it may be advisable to note that the above does not represent your own views.

[cachukis]

22. Frustrated?

[Mosby]

23. Yeah, I forgot to add the part

Where the West felt sorry for the Jews because of Hitler and all that tsuris, so they facilitated the Zionist take over of historic Palestine with un res 181.

[LymphocyteLover]

24. yes, that is the basic argument

[Mosby]

32. And not a word of it is true.

Nt.

[NotVeryImportant]

26. Well, I was really hoping to get some actual examples vs some person on a message saying so, but let's start w/the definitions of the terms you threw around...

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”).
Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism
This tells us that these people feel entitled to the territory Palestinians currently call "home."

Colonial, of, relating to, or characteristic of a colony
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colonial
Is there colonialism, in any form currently being enacted upon the Palestinian people? Yes, or no?

Imperialism, the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialism
Isn't this what's currently happening w/the Palestinian people? Yes, or no?

"Israel was created by white European secular Jews who have no connection to the Middle East and dispossessed millions of Indigenous Palestinians,"
Is there any part of this false?

"by engaging in ethnic cleansing, genocide, collective punishment and war crimes,"
Again, is this not currently, and has been, happening to the Palestinian people?

"forcing the indigenous Palestinians into bantustans, and denying them basic rights like voting and freedom of movement."
Based on your understanding of history, and the world, what tends to be the usual recourse of a people that has been suffering under these circumstances?

What you stated is either true of false, and the facts show them to be true, at least mostly true. So who exactly is lying here, the "far left" or the critics of the so-called "far left?"

I look forward to your response.

[EX500rider]

35. "Israel was created by white European secular Jews who.." No

Done by the UN.
On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain's former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end.

[Beastly Boy]

37. Allow me, and sorry to keep you waiting:

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”).
Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism
This tells us that these people feel entitled to the territory Palestinians currently call "home."

Speak for yourself. This tells ME no such thing. The Jewish State on the territory of Palestine is what Israelis of multiple nationalities call home, including Palestinians. And I have no clue what "entitled" is doing in your interpretation of this entry in a dictionary, or what it has to do with Zionism

Colonial, of, relating to, or characteristic of a colony
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colonial
Is there colonialism, in any form currently being enacted upon the Palestinian people? Yes, or no?

No. But first, are you aware that there is a difference between "colonialism" and "colonial"? Any reason you didn't link to the definition of the word you are contesting? Look it up, and maybe then we can talk. Hint: pay attention to the status of the areas you will be referring to prior to their "colonization". It is different for West bank and Gaza

Imperialism, the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialism
Isn't this what's currently happening w/the Palestinian people? Yes, or no?

No. Power and dominion over Gaza belongs to Hamas. Power and dominion over West Bank is shared between Palestinian Authority, Israel and Jordan, on the basis of mutual internationally recognized agreements

"Israel was created by white European secular Jews who have no connection to the Middle East and dispossessed millions of Indigenous Palestinians,"
Is there any part of this false?

All of it. Israel was created by the UN and recognized by an overwhelming majority of its members within three years of its creation.

"by engaging in ethnic cleansing, genocide, collective punishment and war crimes,"
Again, is this not currently, and has been, happening to the Palestinian people?

Don't make me laugh. This is the whole reason for the OP. The far left has pulled this fairy tale out of thin air. Talk is cheap. No legitimate self-respecting legal authority on any of these subjects would level any of these accusation in any recognized court of law.

"forcing the indigenous Palestinians into bantustans, and denying them basic rights like voting and freedom of movement."
Based on your understanding of history, and the world, what tends to be the usual recourse of a people that has been suffering under these circumstances?

Wait a minute... are you taking an obviously sarcastic statement at its non-sarcastic face value and asking me to respond with a straight face? Well, based on my understanding of history, that's pretty hilarious!

What you stated is either true of false, and the facts show them to be true, at least mostly true. So who exactly is lying here, the "far left" or the critics of the so-called "far left?"

I decline to answer this question out of fear of inevitably violating the DU terms of use.

I look forward to your response.

In retrospect, that was probably not a good move

[NotVeryImportant]

41. I suspect you're thinking emotionally rather than clearly because

Many legitimate self-respecting legal authorities do consider, at a minimum, collective punishment and war crimes to be currently happening to the Palestinians.

I'm no expert in the matter, nor do I have a dog in this hunt, but all your answers have put the Palestinian people at the dirty end of the stick.

This one-sided support of the bigotry is nearing it's end, the world is watching, and not-so-much approving.

That said, carry on and good luck.

[yagotme]

50. What do your legitimate, self-respecting sources

think of the Hamas surprise attack, the civilians raped/killed, babies beheaded, etc.? Are they pushing for war tribunals against Hamas? If not, why??? It was only a couple of weeks ago, not ancient history.

Many legitimate self-respecting legal authorities do consider, at a minimum, collective punishment and war crimes to be currently happening to the Palestinians.

[EX500rider]

52. Oh that's just boys will be boys but what about those Israelis!!!

[yagotme]

54. Oh, boy...

[BannonsLiver]

27. The word has become like war crime.

Everything is a war crime now, everything is colonialism.

[Frasier Balzov]

28. Should Jews have a sanctuary where they are safe from systemic antisemitism?

If yes, then where if not the promised land?

If no, then shall Jews be subject to the vicissitudes of protectorate states and/or pursued to extinction?

Shall Islam be looked to for the answer? What does one suppose the answer in Islam would be?

[Magoo48]

30. So, thousands of years death and suffering over origin myths

and whose storybook superheroes is in charge of promise-lands gifting?

[Frasier Balzov]

31. Conversely, if conquered in the name of Islam

such land can never be reclaimed or room be made for others?

I don't disagree with the absolute good of rejecting religion in choosing a path forward.

But I do recognize the inevitability of playing the cards dealt to us by our ancestors.

[Wonder Why]

29. At some point in history, we're going to have to either stop blaming the colonialism of the past or just blame it all on the Greeks and Romans.

[MistakenLamb]

33. All an attempt to de-Jewify Ashkenazi Jews

[gulliver]

34. It's just absurd. The Earth owns people, not the other way around.

We're stewards at best, not owners.

[WarGamer]

39. IDK...

YOU think Colonialism isn't related?

It was A-OK for England to say... "yup, take this land from our empire"... ???

[LymphocyteLover]

45. it's related but I'm saying the Holocaust changes the whole equation dramatically

[AntivaxHunters]

40. Sooooo.....as a First Nations person

I'd really like to know when we start having a conversation about land back for my people.

[LymphocyteLover]

46. you could start a conversation here at DU about it

what would you like to see happen?

[Behind the Aegis]

47. But that would spoil the "whataboutism" and where is the fun in that?!

(Great thread and some really top-notch posts recently. Thanks!)

[AntivaxHunters]

48. There's a lot

And it's a super long list & quite frankly some would likely alert on what I said.

I do think though full reparations need to happen & the government needs to respect the treaties which they don't do.

[LymphocyteLover]

49. as much as I support such justice, I don't see how it could ever be politically viable

seems like there's always some crisis preventing more simple issues of fairness, justice and/or decency resolved

[AntivaxHunters]

53. We've been in a crisis for hundreds of years

[NutmegYankee]

42. Extremely offensive.

You can’t colonize your ancestral homeland.

[Model35mech]

43. Setting colonialism aside, this about causes of the current conflict from JSTOR

(JSTOR is part of ITHAKA, a not-for-profit organization helping the academic community use digital technologies to preserve the scholarly record and to advance research and teaching in sustainable ways.)

That means it's a quote off internet, which undoubtedlky means some people will doubt it. But universal acceptance is less the issue than the reality that one side in the conflict believes it.

It's not so much colonization as it is what appears to be siezure of land (which is why they are called 'occupied'.

By: Eric Schewe May 19, 2021

... the most important long-term factor has been the continuing Israeli efforts to displace Palestinian residents of the occupied Palestine territories and to settle Israeli citizens in their place. Israel occupied the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank in the 1967 war, which had been formerly under the administration of Egypt and Jordan, respectively. Israel has permitted hundreds of thousands of settlers to make land claims based on pre-1948 ownership in these territories, and to establish entirely new communities on land claimed by the state in the intervening decade. The UN has formally denounced this policy as a violation of international law.

[LymphocyteLover]

44. The settlements are definitely a big problem and are a type of "colonialism"

but I don't think it's the kind of Western colonialism that is typically referred to for Israel, though i have to admit I am fuzzy in this regard

[underpants]

51. (steps in) the existence of the nation Israel is western colonialism

I’m sorry but you have to create your nation. I understand all the background but it was given and it has been horribly managed.