General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm going to go out on a limb here...
Not that what I think or dont think makes a difference.
I am an avowed Zionist and supporter of Israel as a nation similarly to how I support the United States as a nation even when a miscreant like Trump was in power. These countries are essential to the well-being of the world and this is non-debatable. In its 75 years, despite its involvements in wars and constant threats of violence, Israel has made advances scientifically, artistically, culturally, and militarily which have changed civilization as we know it.
When Hamas was voted in by the citizens of Gaza, anyone with any sense knew exactly what was going to happen. Virtually the entire country became militarized against Israel -fair enough - and like Germany, Italy and Japan, the vast bulk of the citizenry sides with the autocratic government leaders. Hamas charter states that it was formed in order to destroy the State of Israel. I would state without hesitation that you cannot coexist with an entity that wants you dead.
But these terrorists are not stupid. They set themselves up to benefit from the civilized worlds double standards of war-making. We ostensibly operate under constructs and constraints. The terrorists do no such thing, but you know: two wrongs do not make a right. As a digression I would state that the popularity of the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry films negates that supposition, but that is a subject for another day. The terrorists hide among civilians, place munitions near or in school and hospitals, and like a certain Western politician whom we know all too well, lie and blame the other side continuously such that it no longer offends when we hear patent lies.
I will get to my point: this situation is causing a political divide unlike any we have seen before. The choice is clear, youre either on the side of democracy and democratically elected individuals within a society with codified laws, or youre on the side of autocrats who have demonstrated that they are amoral to the nth degree. Yes, I understand that unfortunately there are going to be countless personal tragedies on both sides but Hamas and its backers knew this was going to happen.
Israel controls the water and energy pipelines into Gaza, they control the traffic flow and the importation of goods. Hamas knew that the populace would be devastated post facto, and they dont care. If it takes 700 years, they have infinite patience. Their leaders are most likely sitting in Qatar or a country like that, and are sacrificing all of these people, both civilian and terrorist.
And they could not care less. They know the pressures upon their victims country of origin, Israel, and I can guarantee you that theyre smirking at the softness and humanity of the West. I would submit that the Israeli military is well-aware of how terrific the judgement and sensibilities of American politicians and how abysmally we handled 9/11. They will do what they see fit. Remember Entebbe, right? Hopeless
Idi Amin
.cant be done. Well, that was a fallacious supposition.
Penultimately, I propose a hypothetical: suppose in the 1960s the French Separatists took over Canada and a radical anti-American movement took hold. Periodically, missiles were launched from the population centers of Toronto and Montreal toward Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse with possible capabilities of reaching New York City, Boston, and Philadelphia at some point in the near future. What do you believe that the United States would do?
One thing that would not occur would be a media blitz decrying the civilian casualties in the Canadian cities. There would be calls for carpet bombing and occupation/annexation of the country after the photos of a decimated Kodak Park industrial center, of the Carrier manufacturing facility, and the port in Buffalo being rendered unusable.
But its not Canada, its not your family under constant threat of violent death or worse, its the Jews, and we all know about the Jews, right? Jews are different -somehow
.dont really get how but they are. I admit that we are
not better, not worse, but different. In America we have many groups which are different. We are not alone in that regard.
And finally, I would like to say that we all know that if the Israelis just put their weapons down, they would be absolutely annihilated - Hitlers Dream would be realized. Anyone who feels that there is a trace of humanity in these terrorists or their millions of acolytes, and believe me, there are tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of them, is mightily mistaken. Israel will take care of business with the assistance of their allies because that is what they do.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 22, 2023, 08:10 PM - Edit history (1)
a love button rather than just a rec button.
So well said!
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)From what I've read & please correct me if I'm wrong, ok, but being a "Zionist" means you support the basic idea that the people of Israel are entitled to the land due to history. Is this correct?
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)That sliver of land was granted to the survivors of one of the most horrific events in the history of the world: The attempted systematic extermination of a gene pool. In compensation, the Israeli government pledged unceasing loyalty to the US both militarily and intelligence and this symbiotic relationship has existed for 75 years. I could go on and on. Yes, it was advantageous for the West to have a country with Western sensibilities within this geographic region.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)I'm Native so I have a follow up question pertaining to my people & our history.
Do you also support "land back" for us First Nations people too?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)You'd like to discuss?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)When I see a post like that, its obviously not worth the effort.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)PCIntern
(25,623 posts)And banished to reservations by the imperialist colonists. Youre non-binary and Native American? Not easy
I would say thats harder than being Jewish.
The Palestinians who left were told by the Pan-Arabists that the Jews would be destroyed and then they, in theory, could return. Those who stayed have more freedom as we define them than they would in the surrounding countries. Those who left, well, chose poorly as it turned out.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)It's difficult but I keep close company which helps. I have been harassed often though by racists who think I should "go back to my own country". My response to them is basically "oh, is that so, I'll make sure I set my tent ⛺ up in your front yard because I'm Native you fucking clown!" That tends to stun them pretty good 🤣
wnylib
(21,731 posts)Do you oppose the existence of the Navajo on land that has been theirs for millennia? Do you support their sovereignty?
You do realize, I hope, that Jews have been living continuously in Palestine for about 2600+ years. They did not all go away 2000 years ago and then suddenly reappear.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)I'd prefer not to say what nation publicly & I'll DM you explaing why that is.
My answer to the second question is "yes". My feelings are very strong on this & I recognize that they're likely far too radical for this website if I'm to be honest. I think that there's major repairs which needs to happen between the US Government & First Nations people. And I have incredibly strong emotional feelings about that.
I think though there's things that could happen as a start like the full on hard push to confront the history of Indian Boarding Schools in this country. Each one needs to be thoroughly examined by teams of forensic pathologists from the government to locate & find all of the bodies of little kids hidden on the property in unmarked graves, then hand over their remains to the local tribal community from which they were kidnapped from with a full on ceremony. Start there. Some is being done but it's far from enough.
And as also return all of the remains & relics that are in museums all across this country that were stolen.
wnylib
(21,731 posts)in my mind, but to pursue them in detail would derail this thread from the OP topic. I can summarize them by saying that your priorities regarding the boarding schools are lacking some concerns expressed by many Native people that I know. And, as a doctor (according to your profile), you should know that the ability to accurately identify tribal nation origins for children in unmarked graves is dubious at best, and not likely possible.
But the OP is about the I/P issue. Comparisons of the history of Native American vs. Europeans in the Americas with Israelis vs. Palestinians in Palestine are not valid analogies. Europeans were outsiders who colonized the Americas. OTOH, Israelis are not outsiders in Palestine. Descendants of the ancient kingdom of Israel have lived continuously in Palestine for 2600+ years. They are not outsiders.
Ironically, given today's conflicts, there were intermarriages and conversions in the past between Arabs and Jews in Palestine under the rule of the Muslim caliphs and later, the Ottoman Empire. So there are Palestinian Muslims who have some Jewish ancestry and vice versa.
Both groups have a right to be there and to have their own self-governing state.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)No I'm not a doctor. Go read my profile again.
And suggesting that all First Nations people must think alike is pretty offensive if I'm to be honest. We're not a monolith & I find your comment incredibly disrespectful.
My thoughts on Indian Boarding Schools are pretty mainstream among tribal communities. And I'd love to have a conversation with your friends because I'm rather quite curious about what they'd like to see done. What? Leave the graves untouched & our history not spoken of? Nah, that's unacceptable.
I find it rather fascinating that people can be all about land back when it comes to Israel but when it comes to First Nations people, not so much, despite us being here for over 20,000 years. Obviously we're not going to agree here at all. I am happy to read that you believe that a 2 state solution is a path forward. On that we certainly see eye to eye.
wnylib
(21,731 posts)That is your misinterpretation. I am well aware of differences between Native nations so I would never imply such a thing. My grandmother was Seneca, Mohawk, and English. My grandfather was Native and German.
I am not an enrolled member of the Seneca Nation because they are matrilineal and those grandparents were my father's parents. But I have relatives on Seneca territory and I live very near to one of the Seneca territories in NY, which I visit often. Like the Navajo, the Seneca people are among the few Native nations that still live on land that they had before Columbus, although greatly reduced in size. The Cayuga, another Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) nation, also live on Seneca territory because they have no land of their own.
My grandmother descended from a Seneca leader, Sganyodaiyo (Handsome Lake). On the English side of her family, she was a cousin to Arthur C. Parker, another Seneca and English descendant of Handsome Lake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handsome_Lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Parker
Not even all Seneca agree on various issues, but in regard to the boarding schools, I know that there are many (note that I said "many" not "all" ) shared concerns among Native nations about the remains of Native children as well as about the effects of those schools on Native societies. I have listened to people talk about them, when and if they were able to. I have seen the pain in their faces and body language when it is brought up.
You addressed the return of the children's remains, and the return of items taken by non Native people, as well as the lands. You left out concerns among many (again, not all) Native people about the forensic methods for identifying the remains which you said should be used extensively. There are objections to some of the forensic methods. And they would not necessarily be accurate, due to tribal mixing during forced migrations as well as due to mixing as a result of past raids and tribal adoptions. You don't need to be a doctor or other health professional to know that. You only need some basic high school or college biology courses, plus awareness of several Native perspectives, to know about 1) objections to some forensic methods, and 2) that they would not accurately ID specific tribal nation identities. There are other ways that could help to ID the children. They require a lot of research into school records, interviews with survivors, approximate ages of remains, and research in newspaper archives, even records of churches that ran the schools. Some members kept diaries. Those things are currently being done in the US. We lag behind Canada on "reconciliation."
Besides recovering cultural items, another shared concern that you did not mention is the generational and cultural effects of the horrific boarding school abuses. Mental health and family and social counseling, from the perspective of the NATIVE people involved is a priority to address resulting addictions, abuses, and poverty. That means allocating funds to address the problems. It also means coordinating with Native approaches to healing and recovery, according to the separate cultures and customs of the people. A fresh non Native grad with a counseling degree and no understanding of the needs and issues will not do.
Now, I want to address an issue of credibility. Your profile identifies you as a group of people who are doctors, scientists, healthcare workers, and "others" affected by covid. That's at least more than 30 people, since the profile specifically mentions 30 doctors alone. So, theoretically, DU members could be addressing different people each time we respond to one of the "plural" your posts.
Yet there is remarkable consistency in style of language, word usage, political views (especially on I/P issues), and types of sources used in your posts. Just like not all Native nations have one opinion, not all human beings, regardless of ethnic or cultural identity, agree on everything or use the same language style in communications.
Therefore, I have learned to read your posts with some degree of skepticism. I have noticed some dubious, and even right wing, sources in some of your posts. The Native ancestral nation that you identified in your DM to me exists, and historically has always existed, within the borders of what is now the US. Yet, the terms you use when discussing Native people are terms commonly used outside the US.
Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation for the remarkable sameness in perspective and language style in posts by a group of more than 30 people. Perhaps there is also a reasonable explanation for speaking about Native nations within the US, by an American (or Americans), in terminology used outside the US.
BTW, Native issues in the US, Canada, and Latin America are not the same as the I/P issues, but you are conflating them.
AntivaxHunters
(3,234 posts)I'm curious what you think is right wing exactly when I discuss First Nations issues because my view point is very left wing when it comes to those issues.
As far as forensics go, I personal haven't heard much of anything on that at all that you described. That does not mean that it doesn't exist of course but I personally have not run across it myself & I have never heard it spoken of either in Native circles. All that I have heard spoken of is the repatriation of the items & bodies must happen. And finding them is obvious a priority.
Have you seen this?
It was published this morning.
It's an incredible article about what we're talking about. And Canada very much has the right idea on how to do it.
[link:https://ictnews.org/news/our-children-came-home-with-moccasins|]
Now if you'd like a bit of a soft primer on what I think needs to happen, I'm more than happy to do that.
Full reparations. Without any question. That must happen. The treaties must be respected because they're not. There's several tribes which deserve to be recognized on the federal level but aren't which is just more BS from the government. There's no reason we should have to protest oil pipelines running through our sacred tribal ancestral lands & it's ridiculous we have to do that. And don't even get me started on the entire sports mascot thing because we'll be here all day. Columbus was a mass genocider & the fact that man is even honored is incredibly fucked up.
And I'm only touching the surface here, barely. The rest is likely far too radical for this website & I really don't want to argue with a ton of people.
As far as my credibility goes. I don't understand why you seem to be so vested in who & what I am. And if I'm to be honest it's a bit creepy. Yes I'm part of a group, correct. However I'm the only running this account here. You can always follow my groups Twitter which I believe is listed in my sig & that account is run by several people however it's been a bit slow on there lately as a few of our members were suspended from Twitter for countering Covid misinformation which is now completely allowed on there since Musk took over.
Anyways, we're very much wading in the weeds here & going far off topic.
Before I go I have something else for you which you may find interesting. Just when you think you've seen it all with right wing craziness.... there's now Indian Residential School mass grave deniers.
[monospace
Hekate
(90,978 posts)Thank you
Think. Again.
(8,700 posts)Paragraph 1;
I think you have invented 'Nativesplaining'!
Paragraph 2;
Antivaxhunters said nothing about 'outsiders', I'm curious why you pretended that they did?
JustAnotherGen
(32,000 posts)Reparations for black Americans that had family members listed as "negro" on the 1930, 40, 50, 60, and 70 Census? Non means tested (Robert Johnson gets the tax credit too) and focused on those who survived Jim Crow?
Would you support a 5-10% tax deduction for the 36 years of the individual's life - if it meant less foreign aid for Palestinians?
Israelis are off the table. Jewish Americans have been African Americans most trusted allies. Today - Marc Elias is involved in a Herculean task to assure our right to vote. Joel Spingarn helped create the NAACP.
Eko
(7,403 posts)"The choice is clear, youre either on the side of democracy and democratically elected individuals within a society with codified laws, or youre on the side of autocrats who have demonstrated that they are amoral to the nth degree."
Democracies can and do make extremely bad decisions that can kill thousands of innocent people and can exacerbate situations. As an example see what the US did after 9-11. The kind of thinking you stated is what got us there I would say. You are either with us or against us was something plenty of people told me on the buildup to the wars from 9-11.
So you think that its an even split between autocracy and democracy. Good for you. You should live and be well.
Eko
(7,403 posts)This is what a false choice is, or false dilemma.
Sometimes called the either-or fallacy, a false dilemma is a logical fallacy that presents only two options or sides when there are many options or sides. Essentially, a false dilemma presents a black and white kind of thinking when there are actually many shades of gray.
MorbidButterflyTat
(1,877 posts)that undermines discussion, and frankly, OP credibility.
Telling someone what they think, then trashing the opinion YOU made up, then dismissing the individual with a snotty final comment. I've seen this deliberate misrepresentation of others' opinions over and over again on this topic. It's ugly.
Beetwasher.
(2,985 posts)Well said.
MyMission
(1,855 posts)With everything you said. And as usual you said it very well!
You were going out on a limb posting this year in GD.
I've recently posted some of these sentiments in the Jewish group. I appreciate that you've gone out on a limb here.
It's been interesting to see the comments on DU since the war started.
Many are surprisingly supportive, but many are shockingly ignorant and antisemitic. Overall we diaspora Jews are experiencing all sorts of grief, fear, anger, pain and distress over the current situation in Israel, aware it is a fraction of what Israeli Jews are going through. I'll stop here.
SouthernDem4ever
(6,617 posts)The leadership they call Hamas needs to be found and removed from Gaza, completely. I classify them right up there with the insurrectionists in our country who want to destroy our democracy.
Joinfortmill
(14,492 posts)mcar
(42,439 posts)This is so well said, PCIntern. I heard a clip (via Sirius) earlier today, the last part of an interview with some Israeli whose name I didn't hear. He said something to the effect that - Israel has been out of Gaza since 2005(?). Since then, what has progressed? There has been no prosperity, no development, no tech startups, etc.
This cannot be wholly laid at the feet of Israel. The Arab world wants Palestinians in Gaza to suffer to keep the cause (i.e., the destruction of Israel) going.
dcweed
(16 posts)PC appears to address the governing bodies of the two sides.
Many folks, including me, couldn't give a damn for either of them.
We care about the people; the humans, those with babies and mothers.
From that perspective, everything that is happening is a f*cking tragedy.
And there is no end in sight.
Find the way out.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)Do you recall our General Zinni? He couldnt deal with Arafats intransigence.
But if you have a terrific idea to solve this, send it in.
Generals and Presidents are positions within governing bodies. Not helpful to date.
I suggest that sixty civilian women are gathered, provided secure and comfortable accommodation, and asked to define a viable path forward so all can live in peace. All are mothers. Half have had civilian children killed in the various conflicts over the last 50 years, and half have not. Thirty are Israeli and thirty are Palestinian. Give them a month. I have little doubt they will provide a workable path forward.
Think. Again.
(8,700 posts)The input of all stakeholders is pretty much a basic requirement for conflict resolution.
brush
(53,968 posts)Give women a chance and see what develops from such summit talks.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,654 posts)I admire your optimism in human nature. (And because it's hard to tell online-- I mean that sincerely.)
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)Cha
(297,935 posts)Yes, We Do Know what would Happen if the Israelis put down their weapons.
And, I keep thinking about those IDF soldiers who might have a wife, baby, child, father or mother, brother, or sister.. or just any of their fellow Jewish People killed by HAMAS and how unforgiving I would be to the Terrorists hiding among the Palestinians.
We All have loved ones that we hold Precious for dear life.. and just to have that gone and know the pain and Extreme shock and Trauma they went through at the end is Beyond Enough to want Justice for them and Yes Revenge.. 1.the action of inflicting hurt or harm on someone for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands:
Thank Goodness the Vast Majority of the USA Voters did not side with the Authoritarian Traitor to his country in his second election.
And, We Must Not let him Get in Again.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)A majority of voters did not choose to vote the Hamas into power. And ever since then, Hamas has chosen leadership only through its own "internal elections" -- not through a vote of the people.
And voters, of course, are only a subset of the Gazan people. From my point of view, they are victims of the Hamas, too.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)Trump won with less than 50%. And then Hamas outlawed elections. Hitlers party won without a majority IIRC. Elections have consequences.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)"When Hamas was voted in by the citizens of Gaza, anyone with any sense knew exactly what was going to happen."
Most of the citizens of Gaza did not choose to be led by Hamas.
Also, you left out any mention of how Bibi was using Hamas to his own ends, instead of negotiating with the PLO.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2023/10/20/23923953/israel-hamas-war-palestine-netanyahu-likud-government-gene-lyons
Based upon his own history, theres no reason to think Netanyahu can restrain himself from a massacre of innocents. Hes too compromised, too captivated by Israeli religious fanatics, too weak.
While its hardly mentioned by American cable news channels promoting Israel at War, the Times of Israel has reported that the Egyptian government says it gave pointed warnings to Netanyahu that Hamas was planning a big attack, and that he basically blew them off. He claims it never happened. It appears, however, that the embattled prime minister, facing trial on criminal corruption charges, may have imagined that a terrorist attack would make him stronger.
For years, the newspaper explained, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)43% of the people who can vote chose a terrorist organization. And thats what they got. Hamas really does not care about your electoral sensibilities, any more than Trump who lost the popular vote in 2016 by three million votes.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 22, 2023, 11:07 PM - Edit history (1)
I want the rational, non-hateful majority of the US to understand that most Gazans didn't choose Hamas to lead them. Even fewer than the Americans who chose Trump.
And Hamas has been propped up by Netanyahu, who preferred to keep the Hamas as his arch-nemesis, rather than negotiate a two-state solution with the PLO.
independent think
(22 posts)Most of my relatives came to America between 1840 and 1880. At that time they had to give up their allegiance to their foreign country. Now we have Americans who have duel citizenships. Our leaders even have duel citizenship and they always in the case of Israel support Israel even when they are destructive to the Palestinians. Israel under the case of their present leader has gone out of his way to try to destroy some democratic principles and the Palestines have few rights. Anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic. While I dont approve of the Hamas killings I dont approve of mass killings of the Palestinians either. We are supposed to believe anything Israel says. I had a relative on the USS Liberty. Israel lied and the US government covered it up so forgive me if I dont trust Israel or our government. I realize that the Jewish people suffered tremendously under Hitler. Who do you think helped to defeat Germany? Our father and brothers.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)Good night.
madaboutharry
(40,245 posts)is one of the oldest antisemitic tropes in history?
Hekate
(90,978 posts)But this morning our daughter texted this to my husband and me.
Ive been pretty choosy about who Ive shared it with so far hope you dont mind, but you just made the cut.
Two peoples, one land,
Three faiths, one root,
One earth, one mother,
One sky, one beginning, one future, one destiny,
One broken heart,
One God.
We pray to You:
Grant us a vision of unity.
May we see the many in the one and the one in the many.
May you, Life of All the Worlds,
Source of All Amazing Differences
Help us to see clearly.
Guide us gently and firmly toward each other,
Toward peace. Amen.
Rabbi Sheila Weinberg
Jewish Community of Amherst, Amherst, MA
Ilsa
(61,710 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,500 posts)Israel HAS their nation, and have had it for 75ish years....
Being a 'zionist' now does not seem relevant anymore.... to my limited understanding of it
They have their nation now, well and good---
but they need to abide by the 'code of nations' as well...
I am as neutral in this war as I can be. I do not deny Israel's right
to defend themselves, and thus to counterattack against the terrorists who attacked them...
But I don't know what "Zionism" has to do with it anymore...
They have established their nation, many years ago... it is over and done.
Seems a little like Americans identifying as Revolutionists,
when we already won that war about 250 years ago.....
After that word, I stopped reading, so I have no idea what the rest said. Sorry.
LexVegas
(6,121 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,500 posts)I mourn for both sides----
but I can recognize a partisan who can't consider 'both sides',
when I see them....
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,500 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,500 posts)blah blah blah....
ancianita
(36,207 posts)I've held that believer wars -- really, bankers wars -- have always been the bane of the planet.
That said, thank you for your compelling insights that harden my anti-corporate media stance and stir my pro-Zionist heart.
To me, at least, what you've said makes a big difference.
EX500rider
(10,885 posts)Now the IDF has to finish them off so it does not keep happening, they can surrender or die.
As to how many women & children have died, no one has any idea as all the figures come from Hamas so are next to worthless.
Could be all the dead are 90% Hamas fighters, we have no way to know.
As to Total War
Some of you seem to have forgotten how war works, Hamas made total war on Israel and have to be eliminated.
The Japanese government killed 2,403 at Pearl harbor.
That got them from 2 to 3 million killed in return by the US & their allies.
Surrender or die are the choices when the gloves come off.
bigtree
(86,013 posts)...we reduced one of the region's most advanced societies into rubble over fearmongering lies about WMDs.
The other we occupied for decades after the 9-11 terrorists had fled to Pakistan.
You talk here about country whose government waged war with their citizens' participation. That's not the case in Gaza for the overwhelming number of Palestinians there.
It's more like in those hapless nations we flattened and invaded while letting the actual terrorists run free for years while the MIC reaped the lion share of benefit.
Remember these 9-11 terrorist 'orchestraters? What did they do while we were destroying cities and towns in retaliation? They recruited actual armies of resistance to our military agression.
Some were eventually killed, but those efforts had little to do with the thousands of civilians in those countries who were killed underneath our carpet-bombs.
Did we really 'finish them off?'
Did we finish off the Taliban?
Or did we just stir up the hornet's nest and spark generations of individuals determined to harm the U.S. and our interests, like the 'al-Qaeda in Iraq' thugs that were spawned and grew up in the wake of that overwhelming force of our military?
Wasn't it the terrorist leaders intent to draw the U.S. into their region to foment more resistance, and better attack us and our interests?
world wide wally
(21,758 posts)JustAnotherGen
(32,000 posts)And finally, I would like to say that we all know that if the Israelis just put their weapons down, they would be absolutely annihilated - Hitlers Dream would be realized.
But its true. The core belief of these terrorists is the annihilation of Jewish people. They live for that.
kentuck
(111,111 posts)...And assist in the re-building of a separate state, better than the one before.
MorbidButterflyTat
(1,877 posts)since you totally shut down anyone who expressed a differing opinion.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)I hit the no replies or comments button.
madaboutharry
(40,245 posts)Your writings are always thoughtful and reasoned, but I cant help think that youre preaching to the choir.
Ill take the opportunity to say this: The current situation serves to remind Jews that their friends are few.
ecstatic
(32,777 posts)Reversing your scenario: How would you feel if a bunch of our homegrown terrorists attacked Canada, and in response, Canada nuked an entire American city, killing millions, and then blamed the dead Americans for allowing the terrorists to exist? It would be super fucked up and you know it, especially if we were a country full of extremely poor people with little to no resources.
I keep seeing people ask why it seems like only Israel is being criticized while hamas is not. That's not true at all, what we're seeing is people correctly identifying the power dynamic: Israel is a superpower, backed by the US military. On the other side of the wall you have millions of women and children, with hamas hiding amongst them. The only way to eradicate hamas would be to eradicate everyone else too, essentially a Palestinian genocide/holocaust that would go down in the history books.
When you are a military superpower, you have certain responsibilities. Killing millions of innocent, penniless people indiscriminately, regardless of the reason, makes you no better than hitler. Period. But also, setting aside the cruelty and inhumanity, committing genocide wouldn't be smart either. It would guarantee never-ending battles and the potential destruction of Israel all together. There would never be peace.
We're in a new era where the world, except for putin and xi, expects and demands actual peace. The peace process starts with treating everyone humanely and with respect. The truth is, from what I have gathered, the "peace" they had prior to October 7 was just an illusion. "Peace" is not present when millions of people are displaced, suffering and forced to live in what is described by human rights groups as "open air prisons." If that is not a true description of what was happening, then please direct me to accurate and neutral sources of information.
I also keep seeing the narrative that even if Palestinians are treated humanely, it won't matter because they wish to annihilate Jews. Is that really the case? Where can I find independent and reliable information about this because it sounds like an excuse to not do the right thing. Remember when we put Japanese Americans in internment camps? THANK GOD someone had the common sense to stop that. By that logic, Native Americans, African Americans, and Japanese Americans would be living behind a wall in open air prisons to this day.
So what is MY solution?
Complete and immediate integration. Tear the fucking wall down. Yes, screen and maybe deny citizenship to shady people. But let everyone else through. Most people just want to be with their family and friends. They are not bloodlust filled assholes. I get that there would probably be lingering hatred between some groups, but right now, actual atrocities are fueling the hatred. I think it's worth a try to stop committing/enabling atrocities and see what happens. That said, there will always be disgruntled people. You can find that in any country (see our multiple daily massacres). Don't use one incident as an excuse to return to apartheid, etc.
Just my opinion, even though the topic has been declared "non-debatable."
Cha
(297,935 posts)womanofthehills
(8,801 posts)You didn't mention it was 2006 and most Gazans alive today were not yet born - and a large majority of the rest were still in school and not of voting age.
BootinUp
(47,209 posts)"The choice is clear, youre either on the side of democracy and democratically elected individuals within a society with codified laws, or youre on the side of autocrats who have demonstrated that they are amoral to the nth degree."
Also a Zionist, and a Liberal Democrat raised as a Roman Catholic and I feel thats worth a quick mention.
PCIntern
(25,623 posts)Not with knowledge afore thought. Its an obvious platitude.
But Ill hold this truth to be self-evident. 😁