Israel has long wanted Palestinians out of Gaza - my father saw it firsthand (Guardian)

[David__77]

Fifty-six years ago, after Israel’s victory in the six-day war in 1967, an intensive debate took place in the country regarding the future of the newly occupied West Bank and Gaza. The options ranged from outright annexation of the land by Israel, returning the West Bank to Jordan or the establishment of a Palestinian state.

...

In 1967, Israeli policymakers were adamant about keeping the occupied Gaza Strip. As early as 8 June 1967, Golda Meir, the then secretary general of ruling party Mapai, stated in a meeting of the party’s political committee that she was for “getting rid of its Arabs”. The Israeli cabinet resolution 563, of 19 June 1967, determined that “according to the international border, the Gaza Strip is located within the territory of the state of Israel”. Yet because of the large Palestinian population in Gaza, annexation of the territory, as had happened in East Jerusalem, was not a viable option.

Mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza was also not feasible while the world was watching. So other strategies were employed. The first of these was to make life unbearable, by ruling with an iron fist and keeping the standard of living very low. The second was by encouraging emigration. Personally supervised by the prime minister, Levi Eshkol, this strategy relied on financial incentives. By mid-1968, tens of thousands had left the Strip, mostly for Jordan. But Jordan decided to stop admitting them, so Israel increased its attempts to boost emigration of Palestinians to non-Arab countries such as Brazil and other South American states, as well as Canada and Australia, but with little success. In the end, none of these strategies brought about significant results, leading Eshkol to lament, “I still don’t know how to get rid of them.”

After the passage of more than five decades, and even with the imposition of a 16-year siege of the Strip, it is clear that none of these strategies have worked and most of the Palestinian population of Gaza, composed mainly of refugees from 1948 when Israel was established, remained there and increased from 400,000 to 2.2 million. Now, with the war on Gaza, Israel seems to be seizing the opportunity to carry out what has not been possible in all the previous years.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/20/1967-israel-gaza-palestinians-father

[WarGamer]

1. happy to be the 1st rec

[BlueCheeseAgain]

2. Some people, especially Israel's right wing, wouldn't mind for sure.

But those on the Israeli left would strongly disagree. Rabin, Peres, and Barak all tried to make peace with a two-state solution.

I understand the author is Palestinian and brings a certain point of view to this. But to say "Israel" as a monolith wants to get rid of all the Palestinians is completely false, almost to the point of being offensive. It is this kind of simplistic thinking and tarring of a group with a broad bush that helps perpetuate this never-ending violence.

[David__77]

3. I agree completely.

There are lots of progressive Israeli citizens.

[Thinker Cats]

4. Then vs Now

If you took a poll two months ago, you may have gotten different results than today.

[enid602]

105. Simpler time

So much has happened in the meantime.

[jaxexpat]

43. The US is also not a monolith, but for 4 years......

the world expected the worst and the least from our president. That immigrant infant children were being taken from their parents per policy or that the president was calling world leaders and extorting them as a condition for doing business with the US became a regular expectation.

[AloeVera]

68. True but here's the problem.

It's a big one. The Israeli youth aged 18-24 have turned hard right. The progressives are the older generation and their views are becoming obsolete and their voices losing power.

The voting power of the youth has helped usher in Israel's farthest right-wing government ever.

This phenomenon as described in the article in Vox is cause for despair for those still dreaming of a two-state solution.

What now?

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine

[TexasDem69]

5. Hamas is the elected ruling party of Gaza

Hamas’ stated position is the elimination of Israel. A little context is important.

And you should change your post to highlight that this is an opinion piece, not news.

[WarGamer]

6. But your comment is irrelevant to the OP

Do you believe GAZA has fair elections?

And even if GAZA residents did elect Hamas... does that make them a target for retribution?

[David__77]

7. The large majority were not of voting age the last time there were elections. Close to a majority weren't even born!

I can only speculate as to the intended point.

[TexasDem69]

8. The point is that Hamas is the elected ruling party

Of Gaza. And Hamas’ attacks were supported by a majority of Gazans.

[David__77]

10. To assume this is true for a moment: what's your point?

[TexasDem69]

11. The point is clear

Sorry if it escapes you

[David__77]

15. I just wondered if you cared to state it clearly rather than by implication.

I'm reminded of this post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218414722

[Lucky Luciano]

70. The point is that support for Hamas makes you a legitimate military target.

[David__77]

72. My understanding is that combatants, specifically, are legitimate military targets.

Non-combatants are non-combatants, regardless of their ideology or perceived ideology. Of course, over history, non-combatants have been targeted many times.

[Think. Again.]

21. Can you verify that...

...the Oct. 7 attack was supported b a majority of Gazans?

I have read that just prior to Oct 7, the majority of Gazans were against hamas;

From foreignaffairs.com:

"The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts. Arab Barometer, a research network where we serve as co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas war broke out. The findings, published here for the first time, reveal that rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas’s ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

(Full article: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas )

[TexasDem69]

23. From the Jerusalem Post

https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791#:~:text=A%20mass%20of%2063.6%25%20said,the%20attack%20to%20some%20degree.

[Think. Again.]

29. Well, obviously, those 2 polls...

...are giving very different results.

I don't know enough about either of the institutions who conducted those polls to begin to sort out how or why, but something, somewhere, is not right with those polls.

[TexasDem69]

30. I don't know enough either

But the eye test of Gazans celebrating the attacks says a lot.

[Think. Again.]

36. It could be video of anything...

...we've learned a lot about the use of misleading and false videos right here in our own political landscape.

[TexasDem69]

47. Please tell me you aren't claiming

That all the videos we saw of Hamas murders, and all the videos of Gazans celebrating those murders, were staged. They’ve been confirmed by numerous sources, including President Joe Biden. You simply can’t be making that argument.

[Think. Again.]

55. There have been multiple verifications...

...of random videos being used falsely as "proof" of this or that in the I/P situation, and then being proven to be documentary out-takes or something else that had nothing to do with what they were presented as on social media.

You're correct, I'm not claiming "all" of anything is anything, but I don't just blindly believe everything I see or read on the internet.

[Cha]

62. Palestinians in Gaza, West Bank strongly support Hamas, October 7 attack

After Hamas’ devastating October 7 massacre in which some 1,200 Israelis and foreign nationals were murdered, the globe was divided into people able to condemn the attack and people perceiving the terrorists as "freedom fighters."

Palestinian society seems much less divided on the issue compared to the rest of the world, according to a November 14 poll by the Arab World for Research and Development. When asked the leading question “How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7?” Palestinian responses showed support for the attack.

Palestinians living in the West Bank overwhelmingly answered that they supported the attack to either an extreme or “somewhat” extent (83.1%.) Only 6.9% answered that they were “extremely” or “somewhat” against the attack, and 8.4% expressed that they had no opinion either way.

So Fuck them.

TY for the link, TexasDem

[womanofthehills]

96. You are trying to make it black & white

And it’s so complex. Snoops

“Hamas in its early days, according to former Israeli officials, was seen by the government of Israel as a counterweight to the PLO. Israel supported Hamas as a way to break the PLO's hold on the region. Retired official Avner Cohen, who worked in Gaza in the 1990s and oversaw religious affairs in the region, told the WSJ in 2009, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation." That report continued:


https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/

[yagotme]

77. Your post #7 and the article don't agree.

From the article:

and most of the Palestinian population of Gaza, composed mainly of refugees from 1948 when Israel was established, remained there and increased from 400,000 to 2.2 million.

We keep hearing that 50% of the population in Gaza are "children". Per your post, most Gazan's weren't voting age the last election. So, where are all the original refugees stated in the article at??? Methinks numbers are being falsified...

[David__77]

79. Most of the people who were first generation refugees are dead.

Their descendants account for the vast majority now.

[yagotme]

80. Increase is approx. 6x. If original refugees are dead, that's a HECK of a birthrate, right there... nt

[David__77]

82. Yes, there has been population growth.

I’m sure it’s on the high end, generally in line with the general trend of higher growth rate with lower GDP.

[yagotme]

83. Population growth at a factor of 6x. With a high death rate?

My suspicions still stand.

[David__77]

86. CSIS link related to this:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-gaza-and-death-two-state-solution#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Census%20Bureau%20International,million%20in%202040%2C%20and%203.2

This gives a summary:

The U.S. Census Bureau International Database data estimates that Gaza’s Palestinian population increased from only 265,800 in 1960 to 342,700 in 1970, 431,600 in 1980, 645,100 in 1990, 1,1 million in 2000, 1.5 million in 2010, and 2.1 million in 2023 and that it will rise to 2.4 million, 2.9 million in 2040, and 3.2 million.

[yagotme]

101. "Estimates." Again, I have suspicions.

And in the 2d half of that paragraph in the article, 18 is still considered a "child". My question still is, where did all the adults go???

[womanofthehills]

97. True

Snoops - When considering Hamas' win in 2006, this fact is crucial: Almost half of Palestinians in Gaza in 2023 could not vote in the 2006 elections because of their youth (the voting age is 18). Per previous reporting by Snopes, which relied on demographic data compiled by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, children and teens under the age of 18 were estimated to represent about 47% of the Gaza Strip's population, as of mid-2023.

Furthermore, today’s population in Gaza also includes adults who were not old enough to vote in 2006. In 2006, around 840,000 citizens were under the age of 18 out of a population of 1.4 million, according to UNICEF.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/

[David__77]

98. I think as people get older, they may often lose perspective of how quickly the world changes.

It might seem the same - relatively speaking - to people who have been around.

I would not agree with collective punishment regardless. It's just extra ridiculous, given the demographics of Gaza.

[whopis01]

90. It has been 75 years. Where do you think they are?

The 400,000 referred to in your quote from the article was in 1948. That was 75 years ago.

That would put the vast majority of the original refugees into their 90s or beyond. I don’t think it takes a lot of logic to deduce that most of them have passed away by now.

[tritsofme]

92. Of course, it also ignores the nearly equal number of Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries

during this same timeframe.

There was a roughly equal population exchange between Arabs and Israel, there will never be a “right of return” for Palestinians “refugees”

[whopis01]

93. I don't quite see how that follows what I said

I was responding to the poster who seemed confused about what happened to the 400,000 refugees mentioned in the article. I was not speaking to anything larger than their confusion.

[yagotme]

102. Logic.

Logic tells me that the original settlers had kids, those kids have kids, et cetera, et al. Where are all these older generational adults, if 1/2 the population is under 19? A lot of the original voters who voted Hamas in should still be alive, correct? Less than 20 years ago. Or is there some kind of futuristic plan or virus that kills when you reach the age of 35? (Logan's Run, for you sci-fi aficionado's).

[whopis01]

107. You appear to be questioning points I did not make

Perhaps you have confused my posts with someone else’s.

You questioned “where are all the original refugees stated in the article at?” I was just pointing out that after 75 years, most of them are likely no longer alive.

I have made no statement about who did or did not vote for Hamas or the average age of people living in Gaza. I assume that you wish to make some sort of point about whether or not people who voted for Hamas are responsible for what is happening. I have no interest in debating such points. What has been happening there since early October is a tragedy on all fronts and no one should have to live through that.

If you want to find answers to your questions I am sure you can do so on many sites. The CIA’s world fact book is a good one for this sort of info.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/

[yagotme]

108. Your post:

The 400,000 referred to in your quote from the article was in 1948. That was 75 years ago.

That would put the vast majority of the original refugees into their 90s or beyond. I don’t think it takes a lot of logic to deduce that most of them have passed away by now.

You used the term logic. I believe the numbers for adults are fishy, as, per my post, the natural assumption is that adults will produce generational offspring. The article goes from the 400,000 original settlers to today's population, while inferring that not very many adults that voted for Hamas are still alive, throughout the sub thread. I threw a flag, as I don't believe that, and I understand perfectly well that any adult alive in 1948 would be very elderly today, even 17 years ago. But their grandchildren/great grandchildren wouldn't. And those would be the ones that voted Hamas in. Where are THEY at, if 1/2 the population is "kids"?

I would say, though, I was doing double duty with my response to you. I was adding info that you didn't necessarily ask for, because I knew other posters would, so I "saved some bandwith" with my response.

I assume that you wish to make some sort of point about whether or not people who voted for Hamas are responsible for what is happening.

No. Just when it is pointed out that Hamas WAS elected in, and are now the current government of Gaza, a lot of people throw out the "17 years ago" bit. Yes, it was 17 years ago. No other election has been done. Their country, their rule. That's why it's called a terrorist state. The terrorists have control of it. I'm not blaming the rank and file Gazan for what their evil leaders do. However, there are those that DO believe that Hamas has their best interests at heart, however misguided they may be. Those are the ones cheering and celebrating after Oct 7.

[TexasDem69]

9. It is not irrelevant

This is an opinion piece suggesting that Israel is overreacting to Hamas’ murder of Israeli citizens. The context is important. Do you have any evidence that Gaza doesn’t have fair elections? What do you think about all the videos of Hamas’ citizens celebrating the October 7 attacks, or abusing the corpses of Israeli citizens?

[WarGamer]

12. So you're advocating for the entire population to be treated as enemy combatants?

[TexasDem69]

13. Wow

That’s a massive mischaracterization. Just stop. Israel has done everything it can to limit civilian deaths while eliminating Hamas and the threat it poses to every citizen. Of Israel. While Hamas CELEBRATED killing women and children and vowed to do it again if given the chance. Israel is trying to prevent this from happening again.

[WarGamer]

19. I would argue that the way the war is being waged...

Will make life MORE dangerous for Israelis in the short and long run.

[Red Mountain]

24. So.....

you think they should absorb the casualties, negotiate for the hostages and just try and get back to where it all started?

[WarGamer]

31. I would hope that people smarter than I would figure it out.

What if the IDF started targeting individual Hamas leaders and attackers with drone strikes or targeted missile strikes with appropriate explosive size?

Return fire on rocket launch sites. Quick in/out helicopter airborne raids, stuff like that.

Maybe right after the terrorist attack, more countries would have worked WITH Israel to solve the problem.

Like I said, way above my paygrade. The first mistake was England carving off a piece of their empire to invent a new country against the will of it's neighbors.

But it's too late to unbreak that egg... can't dissolve Israel, can't eject the Palestinians from GAZA...

[TexasDem69]

50. Hamas' murderers are literally

In hospitals, schools and homes! How do you target a child murderer embedded in a home without targeting the home? Israel sent ground forces into hospitals to root out Hamas and folks complained about that.

[WarGamer]

51. wait for them to leave?

The operation doesn't have to be over in a week...

[TexasDem69]

54. And what if they don't leave?

Can Israel attach in a month, a year, a decade?

[Big Blue Marble]

56. How many people are you willing to see Israel kill?

Patience is a virtue, never more than when human lives, especially children are on the line.
What is the rush? And why are you so willing dehumanize these people?

[TexasDem69]

61. Good deflection

Can you answer the question instead of building strawmen?

[Big Blue Marble]

64. You are projecting to avoid answering the question.

What is your death toll limit? Or do you have one?

[yagotme]

78. Let's try reversing this sentence, and see what happens:

How many people are you willing to see Israel kill

?

How many people are you willing to see Hamas kill?

[Mr. Evil]

53. In the aftermath of WWII,

While they were carving up Germany between the Soviet Union and the western allies they should've carved a hunk for all the Holocaust survivors and any Jewish people that wanted to live there. Problem solved and none of this Middle East bullshit we've seen for the last 75 years.

[elias7]

88. And Israel was the "new country" that should not have been founded?

Or do you mean Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, UAE, Yemen, Qatar, Turkey, etc? All founded after WWI and many after WWII. Everyone was developing nationalistic tendencies around then, not Zionists.

So I guess you are suggesting that maybe Israel doesn’t surround and bully Palestinian Arabs. Maybe it’s fairer to say that it is amazing that a Jewish and Democratic state has survived amidst a sea of 22 Arab Muslim authoritarian societies, all of whom want Israel dead and gone. And in the 75 yr process of trying to destroy Israel instead of seeking peace, the Palestinians have painted themselves into a corner.

[womanofthehills]

99. If Israel is so good at limiting civilian deaths

Why are we seeing thousands of images of dead kids with parts of their heads missing, kids with missing limbs, rows of dead kids feet sticking out from rubble, etc. You think that’s a good job!

Never before has the world seen such sad images on our phones day after day. Our 10 yr olds are seeing these images on TicToc. When I was a kid, I cried when Bambi died & that was a movie - our kids are seeing mutilated kids daily and luckily are so much more compassionate than people on here - thousands of comments by our US kids how they want to hug and adopt these kids.

[yagotme]

103. Yes, because, if Israel wanted to, they could actually carpet-bomb Gaza.

Whay they've been doing, irregardless of opinion here, is more precision. Some here that have thrown out the carpet-bombing phrase, in my opinion, don't have the foggiest idea of what an area looks like that HAS been bombed like that.

[Red Mountain]

22. Do you think they are?

I don't. I think civilian casualties COULD be FAR higher given that sort of designation.

[WarGamer]

25. No, I don't...

But it's obvious they have a rather high allowance for civilian casualties to strike Hamas fighters.

Look at recent combat. During the ISIS operations a few years back, the US used small munitions to strike individual without blowing up a building or a refugee camp. Look at Ukraine. Little quad copter drones with grenades are striking individual fighters in their trenches.

The current operation, to me... smells like "teaching them a lesson"

[TexasDem69]

32. I don't think you understand the difference

Between Gaza, Ukraine and whichever ISIS “operation” you are talking about. The Russian forces are in fields or empty cities, and I don’t even know which ISIS operation you are referencing. Show me a trench in Gaza filled with Hamas terrorists that you think Israel should be targeting. You can’t, because Hamas has placed its weapons and murderers in hospitals and homes, not trenches.

[WarGamer]

34. they don't live underground 24/7/365...

They pop out, kill them.

I'm not talking about a month long operation, I'm talking years.

And you obviously don't need to drop 2000# JDAM's on a refugee camp to kill Hamas fighters.

Remember the US "Ginsu Knife Bomb"? No warhead just sharp parts... no collateral damage.

[TexasDem69]

37. How is that a solution that protects Israel?

There were thousands of Hamas murderers on 10/7.

[Red Mountain]

33. Not apples to apples

Hunting down individual ISIS leaders in the desert isn't the same.

I don't think the Ukrainians are dropping grenades on individuals in their trenches to limit civilian casualties....they'd probably be happy to carpet bomb them instead. They don't have air superiority much less a fleet of bombers.

Israel does have a higher allowance for civilian casualties than we are used to. It's a reflection of the type of fight they are facing.

It's not a stand up fight of army versus army.

[WarGamer]

35. The point I was making... is that the IDF has the capability to strike individual fighters.

On a motorcycle, in a car, walking to the grocery store... without 2000# JDAM's

[David__77]

17. What are "Hamas' citizens"?

[Think. Again.]

38. Good catch.

[patphil]

16. The truth is a lot different than what you think.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-elected-to-govern-gaza-george-w-bush-2006-palestinian-election.html

read the whole article, but here is an important excerpt:

It was in January 2006 that the Palestinian territories held what turned out to be their last parliamentary elections. Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party’s 41 percent) but, given the electoral system, a strong majority of seats (74 to 45). Neither party was keen on sharing power. Fighting broke out between the two. When a unity government was finally formed in June 2007, Hamas broke the deal, started murdering Fatah members, and, in the end, took total control of the Gaza Strip. Those who weren’t killed fled to the West Bank, and the territories have remained split ever since.

[TexasDem69]

18. Hamas won the vote

Am I missing something? And you
Ignored my question about Gazans supporting the attack. https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791#:~:text=A%20mass%20of%2063.6%25%20said,the%20attack%20to%20some%20degree.

[patphil]

69. 17 years ago! And then they drove the opposition party out of Gaza.

There is a good reason why Hamas hasn't had another election since 2006...they are concerned they would lose.
Please bear in mind that they only got 44% of the vote in that election, not a majority. It can easily be argued that they do not have the support of a majority of the people of Gaza.

[tritsofme]

91. It was actually Fatah who feared Hamas would also beat them in the West Bank, as well as Gaza

It’s the main reason “President” Abbas is in year 18 of his 4 year term.

[Zeitghost]

100. It's actually the opposite

The Palestinian Authority/Fatah who is in control of Palestinian areas of Judea and Samaria (and in theory Gaza) will not allow elections because Hamas would win in a landslide. There is wide public support of Hamas.

[LiberalArkie]

42. I might add that Trump was the elected leader of the United States and thus represents all of us?

[enid602]

59. Elimination

“Hamas’ stated position is the elimination of Israel.” Looks like Israel is doing all the eliminating, though. And with funds given to them in good faith,

[yagotme]

104. You might want to re-think this phrase:

Looks like Israel is doing all the eliminating, though.

Especially that one little 3-letter word. Unless you were asleep in Oct.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. What happens if

Israel does exile the remaining Palestinians from Israel, specifically Gaza and the West Bank?

Will Israel be satisfied with getting the land that their God promised Abraham and his descendants?

And what if something happens that makes a good portion of the land now called Israel unhabitable, such as lack of water in the aquafers, making habitation and vegetation impossible?

Will some rabbinical scholar "discover" more land that belongs to Israel that's outside its sovereign boundaries? And that will lead to more war?

My point: even if Israel gets what it secretly wants, will it be enough? And if so, for how long?

[Red Mountain]

26. That's a lot of hypotheticals in one post

And throwing in the 'secretly' bit at the end puts a cherry on top.

I think Israel would have preferred not to be attacked.

Same as here in the good ole USA.

[no_hypocrisy]

41. This separate and apart from the October 7 attack by Hamas.

What if Israel has expansionist ideas beyond its borders?

My question is even if Israel were to claim all the land within its borders, would it be enough indefinitely?

[Big Blue Marble]

27. Apparently, the WB settlers has grander ideas.

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers;

"The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest. [This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]"

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Given their plans, they are just getting started

[redqueen]

45. Please tell me that's a fringe case

Just a tiny minority of radicals think this way, I hope.

[Big Blue Marble]

63. This interview is with Daniella Weiss,

one of the original WB settlers, a leader and a real fanatic for sure. These are very dangerous attitude and beliefs.

Their solution for the Palestinians is to accept Israeli sovereignty:

"They should accept the fact that in the Land of Israel there is only one sovereign. This is the issue. So let’s not confuse things. We the Jews are the sovereigns in the state of Israel and in the Land of Israel. They have to accept it."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

That's it; no right to vote or self-determination. All the land belongs to the Israeli's because God gave it to them.
She envisions millions more settlers occupying the WB.

[TexasDem69]

28. Here's what Hamas wants, no "secrets" about it

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12772249/HNova-festival-footage-Hamas-killer-Israelis-shoot-friend-executed.html

[Goddessartist]

20. K&R

Yep.

[Skittles]

39. and many of us have long been sick of the entire dispute

Holy Land.......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight - just sickening all the way around

[TexasDem69]

52. I don't think Hamas' murders are about religion

It’s more about anti-semitism.

[Skittles]

75. Rodney King had it right

CAN WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? It just all makes me sick - I would be fine with neighbors of any kind, WHY CAN'T THEY JUST FUCKING CO-EXIST WITHOUT KILLING EACH OTHER.

[NoRethugFriends]

40. Have you ever made an OP that only was negative about Hamas?

Oh, right, you never answer that question.

[The_Casual_Observer]

67. Targeted attack of a long time DUer much?

[NoRethugFriends]

71. A question

[leftstreet]

73. Poor form n/t

[NoRethugFriends]

74. Questioning a total one-sided poster?

[leftstreet]

76. Where in DU's TOS does it say "both siderism please?"

Respond to the poster's information, or say nothing

[NoRethugFriends]

81. I'll say what the hell I want.

You are not the decider of that

[leftstreet]

84. Oh, okay n/t

[Aussie105]

44. The UN started something in 1947 that wasn't ever going to work out.

Israelis: We have a Biblical right to this territory!
We want you Palestinians out of our country!

Palestinians and surrounding states: Your Biblical claim isn't relevant, it has been null and void for centuries.
We don't agree, go away!

This is a war over territory, nothing else. Like so many current and past wars.

[Autumn_Angler]

57. The Arabs didn't say "Go away!"

More like, "We will destroy you!"

Which didn't work out well for them.

[NoRethugFriends]

46. Seems like the Palestinians would like a bunch of Palestinians out of Palestine.

Any concern about that?

https://www.gaypassport.com/en/news/international/what-s-life-like-for-lgbtq-people-in-the-palestinian-territories

[David__77]

48. Yes, and I don't think the bombs are going to help them.

[NoRethugFriends]

49. Total non-sequitor

[Autumn_Angler]

58. You're only going to get evasion from that poster. n/t

[NoRethugFriends]

60. I know.

A likely (not that it should matter) LGBTQ person has no problem with Palestinian bigotry or Hamas murderers.
Adding standard disclaimer. I detest Netanyahu, the settler violence, and the whole Israeli government.

[The_Casual_Observer]

65. A factual account delivered by a legit source. Nuff said

[moniss]

66. All Fall Down Redux

The sad part of all of this conflict is how people on one side or the other want to use whatever they can to justify or explain as "collateral damage" the killing of children. Hamas smiled when they tasted the blood of children and so does Netanyahu and many of his party and cabinet. We have the quotes from all sides over the many years that indicates their lack of regard for innocent life. All of the actors, including the surrounding states and weapons suppliers, all tell us how what they do is Holy and with each side claiming justification for their actions.

They are all devoid of anything Holy and in fact are rightly labeled as the very opposite. All involved deserve the lasting condemnation of the world. Hamas for believing that killing children and others was an appropriate response to grievances held and then acting to make it happen. So too the ones who armed them. So too anybody, on any side in anyway who makes average people living in any country, territory or region feel unsafe, fear being taken hostage, feel unwelcome or inferior as they simply try to live day by day. Also the Israeli government for putting to action and believing that massive widespread bombing was necessary or morally defensible when they knew by their own statements that the number of actual Hamas fighters was actually a fraction of the actual Gaza population at risk to be killed and injured. So too the ones who, for their gain or political advantage, feed on this long story of misery in this region and then congratulate themselves and drink fine wine, eat the finest foods and tally their bank accounts while people thirst, starve and are deprived of basic care.

[Aussie105]

85. There is no good guy - bad guy in this war.

Hamas terrorists kill Israeli civilians in a surprise attack.

Israel bombs camps and civilian infrastructure from the air because the enemy may, or may not be hiding in the buildings and in tunnels underground.

(If we believe all we hear and see on TV. I have my doubts about some reporting.)

This is a war for territory, with a side dish of racism and religious intolerance.

Outside countries supplying funds and weapons only fuel the flames of war.

There is no good guy - bad guy in this war.
Taking sides is not advised.

[Uncle Joe]

87. One thing about the tactic of keeping the Palestinian people in poverty to get rid of them.

"Mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza was also not feasible while the world was watching. So other strategies were employed. The first of these was to make life unbearable, by ruling with an iron fist and keeping the standard of living very low. The second was by encouraging emigration. Personally supervised by the prime minister, Levi Eshkol, this strategy relied on financial incentives. By mid-1968, tens of thousands had left the Strip, mostly for Jordan. But Jordan decided to stop admitting them, so Israel increased its attempts to boost emigration of Palestinians to non-Arab countries such as Brazil and other South American states, as well as Canada and Australia, but with little success. In the end, none of these strategies brought about significant results, leading Eshkol to lament, “I still don’t know how to get rid of them.”



The decreasing relationship between the two variables demonstrates the connection between fertility choices and economic considerations. In general, poor countries tend to have higher levels of fertility than rich countries.

In particular, women tend to give birth to no fewer than three children in countries where GDP per capita is below $1,000 per year. In countries where GDP per capita is above $10,000 per year, women tend to give birth to no more than two children.

This decreasing relationship between fertility and income is well known to economists and demographers alike. In addition, it holds true over time: Rich countries, such as the U.S., have experienced a remarkable decline in their fertility rate as they became rich. Also, the relationship holds at the individual level, as rich families tend to have fewer children than poor families.

(snip)

https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2016/december/link-fertility-income#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20poor%20countries%20tend,is%20below%20%241%2C000%20per%20year.

If Israel's government truly wants to get rid of the Palestinian people, they need to start lifting them up.

Thanks for the thread David.

[LiberaBlueDem]

94. Truth comes out

Return the stolen lands to the Palestinains and there will be Peace

[David__77]

95. In the short term, the fight is against resumption of the bombardment.

It must be made a completely unworkable option, to the extent possible.

[TexasDem69]

106. This is an opinion piece

That has no basis in reality, as pointed out by others