The US will "under no circumstances" permit the forced relocation of Palestinians, Harris says

[Donkees]

From CNN’s Sam Fossum


US Vice President Kamala Harris speaks during the COP28 climate summit in Dubai, on December 2. Karim Sahib/AFP/Getty Images

Washington will not allow for the forced relocations of Palestinians or any redrawing of the current border of the Gaza Strip, US Vice President Kamala Harris said in a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi.

"Under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza," Harris explained, according to a statement from the vice president's office.

During their meeting, Harris and Sisi discussed "ideas for post-conflict planning in Gaza including efforts on reconstruction, security, and governance," the statement said.

"She (Harris) emphasized that these efforts can only succeed if they are pursued in the context of a clear political horizon for the Palestinian people towards a state of their own led by a revitalized Palestinian Authority and have significant support from the international community and the countries of the region."

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-2-23/index.html

[malaise]

1. Get thee to the greatest page

RFN

[Goddessartist]

2. K&R!

Yes!!!

[RAB910]

3. The fact this needed to be said is quite damning

[niyad]

4. KNR

[RandomNumbers]

5. I'm curious; by "not permit" what does she mean?

Sure the U.S. government can put pressure on the Israeli government. How's that working so far?

Making it sound like an ultimatum is a bad idea, I think. Because we really have no plausible way to back that up. (or what am I missing?)

[David__77]

7. The US could cut all aid and diplomatic support.

Were it to do that, the material impact would be great.

[RandomNumbers]

8. Can the executive branch do that without support of Congress?

Admitting my ignorance to the details here.

And even if technically they could - would they, really? With a presidential election coming up and all that?

[David__77]

10. I imagine there's grey area with the power of the branches.

There’s a lot of things that could be done to raise the costs of deportations and further population concentration.

[Bettie]

25. Netanyahu will have to decide

if he wants the billions from the US to continue to arrive more than he wants to give Gaza to the settlers.

[brush]

41. It's pretty simple. Funding will cease flowing.

[RandomNumbers]

47. So, the executive branch can do that without Congress?

Not giving an opinion here, just asking a question.

I would think that Biden can't really just decide this, and in an election year it may not be as easy to do as he would like; either politically or technically.

[brush]

50. How it's done is not the issue now. It's the delivery of the message to Netanyahu...

that there are limits.

It's getting down to realpolitiks

[RandomNumbers]

51. I don't disagree with the intent

But I worry that Netanyahu will just blow it off because it is unlikely the U.S. will follow through.

[brush]

52. It's getting down to funding. Netayahu is not immune to the realpolitiks...

of the issue. The US can't be seen as a party to a new Nakba and/or a redrawing of borders

It's rarely stated but the relationship between Israel and the US is a surrogacy of sorts.

[David__77]

6. Interesting that the word "permit" was used..

[yardwork]

9. I thought that was interesting, too.

My impression is that the Biden administration is furious with Netanyahu and his cabinet.

[Martin Eden]

38. It's a bad word to use, for TWO REASONS:

First, it implies a level of control over the actions of the Israeli government, which can lay blame for the carnage in Gaza at our feet.

Second, it better not be a bluff. If Israel ignores our directives, we had better respond by witholding the $billions in aid we give them.

That's risky business in US domestic politics, which is why our aid has always been unconditional regardless of what Netanyahu and his ilk have done. Because of that, we DO share some of the blame.

[David__77]

39. Agreed on point number 2 - there's no wiggle room in that statement, which needs to be backed up.

On point number 1, it could be an assessment that, ultimately, Israel will do what the US says. That could be wrong.

[brush]

44. Right. It's about the funding, which includes the weapons used by the IDF.

[jaxexpat]

75. I remember when that sort of intemperate language was quite common.

Such as: The US will not permit the takeover of South Vietnam by the communist North Vietnamese forces nor allow a coup to threaten their democratically elected self-government. So much of hubris is just misapplied rhetoric. So much of history is when the words of politicians are taken at face value.

[gulliver]

11. I'm for it, but I must have missed this being a thing.

The U.S. will also, I'm sure, continue to insist on water wetness and the Pope's Catholicism.

Note, in this day and age, you really do have to tell the world you're not planning on supporting or doing something crazy. In the past, people would just assume it, but now we've got fringe, lost folks of all political persuasions testing every strange idea.

[David__77]

12. "Rejecting US stance, PM told Blinken that IDF will create buffer zone 'deep' into Gaza -- report"

It may relate to what’s discussed in this article, and the US rejecting any “buffer zone” inside Gaza:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/rejecting-us-stance-pm-told-blinken-that-idf-will-create-buffer-zone-deep-into-gaza-report/

[gulliver]

14. Ah, that could be.

The best answer I've seen is a two-state solution with heavy investment in Gaza. Even commercial partnership with Israel. Gazans are being oppressed by the broken Jeffrey Dahmer types who wear radical Islamism T-Shirts.

[keithbvadu2]

17. I agree with a buffer zone. At least a half mile on each side of the border.

Decrease the ability of Hamas killing more Jews like Trump's republicans want to do.

[David__77]

19. They may try to deport the people in Gaza.

Thus far they find no willing partners, so they’re trying to concentrate the population near Egyptian border.

[MichMan]

35. Would a buffer zone require a forced relocation of some people?

Which will not be permitted under no circumstances.

[David__77]

48. Yes, it would.

The intention may be to depopulate it.

[NickB79]

13. A 2-state solution with the Palestinian Authority in control

Both impossible while Hamas calls the shots.

Also, the PA isn't exactly that great either. They infamously parroted the Hamas bullshit about the attack on the music festival being an Israeli false flag operation, claiming the revelers were attacked by Israeli helicopters.

Still, it seems like at the very least, a lot of Hamas members need to be 6 feet under to achieve this dream. Too bad no one in the Middle East has stepped up to help.

[Celerity]

26. A large problem with that is that almost all the RW Netanyahu government and their illegal settler supporters

now say they will never accept the PA either (in terms of a controlling legal authority).

[Think. Again.]

33. Shouldn't be their choice anyway.

[Think. Again.]

32. Absolutely, hamas must go.

[David__77]

54. A two state solution is not viable.

I cannot foresee how it could be.

[MichMan]

72. The only way Hamas will ever agree to a two state solution is if neither one of the states is Israel.

[brush]

76. Bibi is against a two-state solution as well. Bibi will be gone after the war is over. Possibly Hamas too.

[SouthernDem4ever]

87. Too bad no one in the Middle East has stepped up to help.

Has this ever happened to any degree or effectiveness?

[leftstreet]

15. But "permitting" the slaughter of thousands....n/t

[David__77]

22. Unfortunately, this campaign is done with active military and diplomatic support.

[pansypoo53219]

16. netanfuckyou is mr settlement.

[Donkees]

18. Biden has said this to President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, as has Blinken...

NOVEMBER 22, 2023 -Readout of President Biden’s Call with President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi of Egypt

President Joseph R. Biden, Jr. spoke today with President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi of Egypt to express his appreciation for Egypt’s efforts to reach a deal for the release of hostages held by Hamas together with a humanitarian pause in Gaza. They discussed coordination to further surge humanitarian assistance to Palestinians in Gaza. The President reiterated that under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, or the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza. He also affirmed that under no circumstances can Gaza remain a sanctuary for Hamas where they can threaten Israel and Palestinians alike and imperil any pathway to a durable peace. The President affirmed his commitment to the establishment of a Palestinian state and recognized Egypt’s essential role in setting the conditions for that outcome. The two leaders agreed to remain in close contact over the coming days as the deal to release hostages from Hamas is fully implemented.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/11/22/readout-of-president-bidens-call-with-president-abdel-fattah-al-sisi-of-egypt-2/

[prodigitalson]

20. Now demand an end to West Bank Settlements and the dismantling of many that are there

[DBoon]

21. and compensation for those whose property was illegally taken

[Mosby]

42. The settlements are on about 5% of the West Bank

And the property wasn't deeded.

[David__77]

53. Apparently, like the Native Americans, people didn't have their documents in order, I suppose.

[uponit7771]

90. So because it's not deeded does that mean anyone can take it but Palestinians law? Thanks in advance

[David__77]

23. And bar settlers from getting US visas.

And bar US citizens from settlement activity, and ban fundraising for settlement.

[Mosby]

43. 25% of the settlers are Americans.

Want to take away their citizenship?

And how do you ban people from building houses or donating money?

That's seems a little big brotherish.

Should we ban people from donating money to organizations we don't like?

[David__77]

46. I didn't say bar them citizenship. Charge them with a crime.

It is illegal to donate to many organizations based on national security considerations.

Non-US citizen settlers should be barred from entry.

[tritsofme]

58. Right, let's punish women and children for being born in a 50 year old Jewish neighborhood.

[David__77]

59. Not for being born. For engaging in settlement.

[tritsofme]

66. For generations of families, it's just where they were born.

The established neighborhoods aren’t ever going anywhere, little point pretending otherwise.

Israeli citizens are never going to be punished in this way regardless

[David__77]

67. That is part of why a two state solution will not work.

[tritsofme]

69. Probably not. Ideally Gaza would revert to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan.

[David__77]

70. Hopefully Egypt and Jordan would reject that.

[Zeitghost]

93. What is the difference

Between settlement and immigration?

[Marcus IM]

60. But, it's OK for the US to continue to punish the majority of Cubans who were born after the Cold War.

Most of whom were young when Fidel passed away.
Still being collectively punished by the US extraterritorial sanctions specifically designed to cripple their economy.

[brush]

77. Pls, there's enough to discuss with the Gaza situation. Cuba is another topic.

[Marcus IM]

88. It's relating to collective punishment.

It's a broad topic when it comes to US foreign policies.

[Zeitghost]

92. Forced relocation seems fine to be fine to some

Provided it's limited to Jewish immigrants...

As they say, history does seem to rhyme.

[Basic LA]

24. A bold & welcomed statement.

Please say more.

[paleotn]

27. Under no circumstances and permit. Those are very strong words when talking about another sovereign power.

That was a crystal clear message. The Biden administration isn't playing around anymore. Good.

[brush]

45. Yep, speaking directly to Netanyahu/Likud. No new Nakba or re-drawing of borders.

[Marcus IM]

28. And we're providing 2000 lb bunker buster bombs to prove it!

U.S. Sends Israel 2,000-Pound Bunker Buster Bombs for Gaza War
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-sends-israel-2000-pound-bunker-buster-bombs-for-gaza-war/ar-AA1kRdqy

[Celerity]

57. She is perhaps being hung out to dry when you look at that plus what is likely to be 14.5 billion usd given to

Netanyahu and his aspirationally genocidal and/or ethnic cleansing RW supporters with little to no strings attached.

Extremely unfair towards VP Harris, not to mention 2 million plus Gazan civilians. After Gaza it will be the 3 million plus West Bank Palestinians true turn in the barrel. Many are already under the cosh.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

61. Prez Biden

delivered the same message previously.

Post 18, in part: NOVEMBER 22, 2023 -Readout of President Biden’s Call with President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi of Egypt

"The President reiterated that under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, or the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza."

The Biden administration is solid.

[Celerity]

63. U.S. Sends Israel 2,000-Pound Bunker Buster Bombs for Gaza War

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218496800

[brush]

78. That's the harsh reality of the situation. The US can in no way be an honest broker...

in negotiations if it continues delivering the weapons to destroy civilian areas in Gaza.

We're kinda fucked by our "arming Israel" policy, but at least Blinken is trying to get to a cease-fire.

[riversedge]

29. As an aside--our VP Harris is getting lots of foreign policy experience.

[moniss]

30. When we

gave aid to Israel in a prior time it was with a condition that it not be used for settlement activity in the West Bank. When the aid package had been spent we also asked for an accounting from Israel for where the money was spent and assurance that none of the money had been used for the prohibited purpose. We were met with the proverbial middle finger. So I hold no hope about our ability to require or prevent anything with respect to Israel.

[claudette]

31. Thank Goddess!!

That’s exactly what the Israeli government wants. Empty the land of Palestinians and call it Israel.

[onecaliberal]

34. K&R

Thank you, Madam Vice President.

[Think. Again.]

36. I hate to bring this up, but...

...apparently there's a huge natural gas reservoir off of the Gazan coast that needs to be considered in all of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/world/middleeast/chevron-israel-tamar-gas.html no paywall: https://archive.is/eftr1

[Donkees]

37. We discussed the gas field here on Nov 20...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218469301

US pushing Israel to allow development of natural gas field off Gaza's coast: Report
A report in Israeli daily Haaretz says that the US push aims to help revitalise the post-war Palestinian economy.

Biden’s top energy adviser, Amos Hochstein, is in Israel to discuss this issue, the newspaper said.

“We shouldn’t exaggerate its potential, but it can absolutely be a revenue stream for a Palestinian government, and to ensure there is an independent energy system for Palestine,” said Hochstein, as reported by Haaretz.

The Gaza marine field, nearly 32km (20 miles) off the coast of the besieged enclave, has remained undeveloped despite holding an estimated 1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, the Ha’aretz report said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/20/israel-hamas-war-live-gaza-hospital-official-rejects-israel-tunnel-claim

[Think. Again.]

40. I meant on the international level...

...I'm glad to see the Biden administration is considering that gas field as future Palestinian revenue, but does anyone know what netanyahu's plans for it are? And whether those plans are influencing his decisions?

[brush]

49. Good question. I wouldn't put it past Netanyahu to want to get his hands on it.

[Donkees]

55. Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, at present...

That makes them part of negotiations, at present.

The territorial waters of Israel extend into the sea to a distance of twelve nautical miles measured from the appropriate baseline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Israel

[Think. Again.]

79. And when the U.S. says...

"Under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza,"

...I assume that means that Israel will retain control of those gas fields?

[Donkees]

80. When Gaza becomes a state, its territorial waters should come under their control ...

Part of the gas field might overlap Israeli territorial waters though (?) That may be why negotiations are taking place now.

[Donkees]

82. Here is a map of Maritime Boundary Claim (Gaza Corridor)

[Donkees]

83. Map of Gas Field (Gaza Marine)

https://www.ogj.com/general-interest/companies/article/17236509/israeli-oil-gas-targets-spark-flurry-of-drilling

Gaza Gas: Still Under Water - 30 Mar 2018

With Shell looking to offload its operating stake in the Gaza Marine field, development offshore Gaza is unlikely anytime soon. Security risks are a constant reality, leaving hopes for 24/7 electricity dead at sea. Shell never announced plans to develop its 1tcf Gaza Marine discovery, which it inherited after acquiring British firm BG Group in 2016, and the Anglo-Dutch major now wants out of offshore Gaza altogether.

A Shell spokesman told Reuters earlier this month that it is in “discussions with various parties about the future of the Gaza Marine project.” But finding a party willing to take on its 55% stake (and surrounding political baggage) is highly unlikely in the current context. Since Israel withdrew its settlements and military engagement from the 365 km2 territory in 2005.

https://www.mees.com/2018/3/30/corporate/gaza-gas-still-under-water/94a3ad80-342e-11e8-915f-25cd7368152f

[Think. Again.]

84. Thanks for going out of your way to explain that to me...

...I can't help but to think that this gas field is a big part of how this is all playing out and yet I have not come across any reporting or discussion on it, other than vague references.

Thanks again.

[Donkees]

86. I am trying to understand this as well. Agree with you, all sides are focusing on the buried treasure

[questionseverything]

89. Marking.... Gaza's gas wells

[claudette]

81. That's

most likely one of the perks for Nuttyahoo’s war to win. And more land for the Zionists to claim.

[Think. Again.]

85. Yeah...

...It seems odd to me that this gas field is barely, if ever, mentioned in any of the coverage of this whole situation or in any of the statements made by any of the international players.

Apparently, the U.S. has mentioned that we see it as a possible source of revenue for a Palestinian state, but that's all I've read on it, and with so much discussion about both Isreal's and hamas' goals, intentions, and motivations, I find it strange that the possible revenue base for a healthy Palestinian state economy is not being discussed.

[lapucelle]

56. Context generally helps.

VP Harris Sketches Out US Vision of Post-Conflict Gaza

In talks with President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi of Egypt, Harris said that "under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza," the White House said in a statement.

She also said that once the war ends, efforts to rebuild should be pursued "in the context of a clear political horizon for the Palestinian people towards a state of their own led by a revitalized Palestinian Authority and have significant support from the international community and the countries of the region," the statement said.

"The vice president made clear that Hamas cannot control Gaza, which is untenable for Israel’s security, the well-being of the Palestinian people, and regional security," the White House said.

https://www.voanews.com/a/vp-harris-sketches-out-us-vision-of-post-conflict-gaza/7381566.html

[MorbidButterflyTat]

62. I don't see a difference.

[lapucelle]

64. Maybe you should should read it again then.

[David__77]

65. There is no such caveat in the official readout.

“The Vice President reiterated that under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/02/readout-of-vice-president-harriss-meeting-with-president-abdel-fattah-al-sisi-of-egypt/

“Under no circumstances” sounds pretty ironclad. Now that can be reflected in actions.

[lapucelle]

68. I think that's called "messaging." N/T

[Chainfire]

71. It is a little late for that. Somewhere around 50% of homes are now rubble.

And the war ain't over....

[Shipwack]

73. Some quick thoughts...

1) Such a declaration is welcome to see and long overdue.

2) Its goal will be ignored.
2a) The Israeli government can say that they don’t forcibly relocate anyone; it’s the settlers who are doing it as private citizens (wink). Ignore the members of the military who aid them in evictions.
2b) or they don’t forcibly relocate anyone; they just take their homes and they can go wherever they wish afterwards.

3) Biden really has no “stick” to enforce this. He can’t boycott or blockade Israel. He probably can’t stop giving them foreign aid, and even if he did try, a bipartisan group of lawmakers will reinstate it. He has no carrots, either. What could he do? Give them even more aid? Move the embassy to Jerusalem? Oh, never mind. TFG already did that, in exchange for… absolutely nothing.

As I said, I support this stand 100%. It is something that should have been said when Israel started taking over Palestinian homes. However, it pains me to see things said that won’t be backed up.

::sigh:: I’d love to be wrong on this. Biden has a lot of experience, and has handled many diplomatic moves very well. Maybe he has an ace up his sleeve that I am ignorant of…

[Mr.Bill]

74. The press chose an interesting time

to start covering Kamala Harris, didn't they?

[David__77]

91. I do appreciate her words. They are very strong words indeed.

They lay down an important marker, a point of reference. This represents a very important policy statement and policy development.