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Breaking - Jack Smith directly to Scotus: Decide slobby's immunity NOW. 👍 (Original Post) mobeau69 Dec 2023 OP
This will be interesting LetMyPeopleVote Dec 2023 #1
Thank you. mobeau69 Dec 2023 #2
+1 dalton99a Dec 2023 #12
Check.. cilla4progress Dec 2023 #57
So, the question is Bettie Dec 2023 #3
Or do they do as SCOTUS has before in the Bush v Gore case csziggy Dec 2023 #6
That is an internet urban legend. former9thward Dec 2023 #11
Actually, they DID declare it as only applicable to that one case. lastlib Dec 2023 #44
All SC decisions only apply to one case. former9thward Dec 2023 #61
Maybe you need to read the actual decision ExWhoDoesntCare Dec 2023 #53
Every SC decision is limited to the Present circumstances. former9thward Dec 2023 #59
That's my fear Bettie Dec 2023 #14
i dont think they're willing to show their whole asses to protect that asshole. mopinko Dec 2023 #7
That's what I think, too. pandr32 Dec 2023 #20
and already polled them New Haven Dec 2023 #48
It would have to be for all presidents IMO. Otherwise it would fall in the realm os a special law which is mobeau69 Dec 2023 #9
Bush V Gore Bettie Dec 2023 #10
No, That is an internet urban legend. former9thward Dec 2023 #15
The decision held language that Bettie Dec 2023 #17
I remember that. Kingofalldems Dec 2023 #28
I have read the decision and the language is not there. former9thward Dec 2023 #34
Yes, it is. ExWhoDoesntCare Dec 2023 #56
You can personally attack me all you want. former9thward Dec 2023 #65
The sentence in question is on Page 12... Spazito Dec 2023 #58
Thanks so much for posting this Bettie Dec 2023 #60
You're welcome ! It did take a bit but I knew there was language that related to precedence.... Spazito Dec 2023 #62
The court did NOT say it could not be cited as precedent. former9thward Dec 2023 #63
I took the cite from your very link.... Spazito Dec 2023 #68
Here is an article about it. As of 2020. former9thward Dec 2023 #69
I also added links in my post that... Spazito Dec 2023 #71
The only one believing an internet legend is you ExWhoDoesntCare Dec 2023 #55
It would have to be for all. Special laws are unconstitutional. mobeau69 Dec 2023 #16
If trump is immune imagine what Joe can do now? pwb Dec 2023 #4
Lock up Trump, in Gitmo Kennah Dec 2023 #5
No malaise Dec 2023 #22
I agree. Colorado has an excellent facility for monsters. mobeau69 Dec 2023 #70
Good malaise Dec 2023 #72
So does Attica MorbidButterflyTat Dec 2023 #80
Well, if he was immune, being a President Bettie Dec 2023 #24
He would be imune from crimes Polybius Dec 2023 #64
Well, rats, because Bettie Dec 2023 #66
I love Jack Smith malaise Dec 2023 #8
He's a badass! mobeau69 Dec 2023 #21
Seriously!! InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2023 #78
Here is the link to the filing Bev54 Dec 2023 #13
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2023 #18
I doubt anything about these cases could be predicated on an 'average' Torchlight Dec 2023 #27
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2023 #32
Given the already expedited procedures, it does not follow Torchlight Dec 2023 #36
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2023 #38
Interesting guesswork Torchlight Dec 2023 #43
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2023 #51
Quite the movement. Torchlight Dec 2023 #54
Good, the Justices need to be on record FHRRK Dec 2023 #19
With their lifetime appointments already secured I won't hold my breath MistakenLamb Dec 2023 #46
In Jones v Clinton Deminpenn Dec 2023 #23
Wholly Molly WOW! Awesome bluestarone Dec 2023 #25
Great move. Don't let Trump huff and puff for 9 months, let's have it done now bucolic_frolic Dec 2023 #26
This orangecrush Dec 2023 #40
This go to Roberts hand? bluestarone Dec 2023 #29
Or they pull a Citizen's United edhopper Dec 2023 #30
TFG & SCOTUS NowISeetheLight Dec 2023 #31
THIS should be a no brainer for the SC. bluestarone Dec 2023 #33
Good..cut him off at the knees. He was hoping to go thru the appeals court...wait a few months, appeal PortTack Dec 2023 #35
If they decide in his favor, America is done. spanone Dec 2023 #37
This is big. orangecrush Dec 2023 #39
He's wasting his time if he doesn't go there first. lees1975 Dec 2023 #41
There are many things to which Trump is immune. LudwigPastorius Dec 2023 #42
This is an interesting gamble Shermann Dec 2023 #45
Here are the Main Documents of both of Jack Smith's latest opposing motions. ancianita Dec 2023 #47
Make them choose now Demnh2fl Dec 2023 #49
Supremes'll find a way to weasel out on this one. n/t TygrBright Dec 2023 #50
YES! Make them go on the record, finally!!! FakeNoose Dec 2023 #52
When will they rule on this? Polybius Dec 2023 #67
Well, to me this is open and shut. I can think of NO lawyers or witness's that need to be called to testify bluestarone Dec 2023 #74
Would they rule that President Biden has unlimited immunity too? C_U_L8R Dec 2023 #73
Well, now. There's an interesting question!!! nt LAS14 Dec 2023 #75
Slobby is up shit creek without a paddle malaise Dec 2023 #76
Jack Smith is a national treasure!! InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2023 #77
Jack Smith's plan. Handler Dec 2023 #79

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
3. So, the question is
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:11 PM
Dec 2023

do they declare him immune from all prosecution?

If they do, do they do it narrowly, making it only for him personally?

csziggy

(34,141 posts)
6. Or do they do as SCOTUS has before in the Bush v Gore case
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:15 PM
Dec 2023

And declare it is only applicable to that singular case - and only benefiting the Repuke?

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
11. That is an internet urban legend.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:20 PM
Dec 2023

The SC in Bush v Gore did NOT declare it only applicable to that case. In fact, Bush v Gore has been cited in hundreds of other cases as precedent in various briefs and decisions at district and appellate courts across the country.

lastlib

(23,389 posts)
44. Actually, they DID declare it as only applicable to that one case.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:42 PM
Dec 2023
supreme.justia.com:
But that hasn't stopped courts and lawyers from citing it.

While the opinion explicitly states that it applies only to the unique circumstances of this election, it has been cited in cases at the lower levels of federal courts on election law and procedures.

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
61. All SC decisions only apply to one case.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:35 PM
Dec 2023

As every attorney knows the SC never gives a decision that will apply to everything in the future because there are always some factual differences in every case. Bush v Gore has been cited as precedent thousands of times by attorneys and courts that disagree with you.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
53. Maybe you need to read the actual decision
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:21 PM
Dec 2023

Because it does explicitly state that the ruling applies only to that case. In fact, if you look at the actual ruling, on page 109, these are the very words that did it:

Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities.”

{Emphasis mine}

You can get your own copy of the ruling here:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/98/case.pdf

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
59. Every SC decision is limited to the Present circumstances.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:33 PM
Dec 2023

As every attorney knows the SC never gives a decision that will apply to everything in the future because there are always some factual differences in every case. Bush v Gore has been cited as precedent thousands of times by attorneys and courts that disagree with you.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
14. That's my fear
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:20 PM
Dec 2023

my only reason for hope is that they realize in a dictatorship they lose their power and rule against him to keep it.

mopinko

(70,394 posts)
7. i dont think they're willing to show their whole asses to protect that asshole.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:17 PM
Dec 2023

mostly cuz they dont need him.
they havent bent over 4 him yet, they’re not gonna start now. they’re in deep enough shit as it is.

mobeau69

(11,170 posts)
9. It would have to be for all presidents IMO. Otherwise it would fall in the realm os a special law which is
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:18 PM
Dec 2023

unconstitutional.

I’m not a Constitutional lawyer but I play one on DU.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
10. Bush V Gore
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:20 PM
Dec 2023

was for one guy and one guy only.

And the SCOTUS has set up that they alone decide what is constitutional.

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
15. No, That is an internet urban legend.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:22 PM
Dec 2023

The SC in Bush v Gore did NOT declare it only applicable to that case. In fact, Bush v Gore has been cited in hundreds of other cases as precedent in various briefs and decisions at district and appellate courts across the country.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
17. The decision held language that
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:28 PM
Dec 2023

specifically said it was not a case to be cited beyond there.

Whether it happened later or not is irrelevant, the language was there, but it was disregarded later on.

The intent was to give an election to a specific Republican regardless of the vote totals.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
56. Yes, it is.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:28 PM
Dec 2023

Because it's on page 109, clear as day:

Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities.



I assure you that plenty of people who know far more about law than you ever will knew what the court was saying there.

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
65. You can personally attack me all you want.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:40 PM
Dec 2023

The case can and is used as precedent by "plenty of people who know far more about law than you ever will knew"

Spazito

(50,643 posts)
58. The sentence in question is on Page 12...
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:32 PM
Dec 2023
Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection
in election processes generally presents many complexities.

The bolded part is the one that has been read as meaning the case is limited to the specific circumstances and not meant to set precedence.

Some articles discussing this very issue:

Please Don't Cite This Case! The Precedential Value of Bush v. Gore

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/please-dona8217t-cite-this-case-the-precedential-value-of-bush-v-gore

Legal Precedent and the Bush-Gore Ruling

https://www.npr.org/2006/08/20/5678490/legal-precedent-and-the-bush-gore-ruling

Spazito

(50,643 posts)
62. You're welcome ! It did take a bit but I knew there was language that related to precedence....
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:37 PM
Dec 2023

in the decision that is still debated today, I just needed to find out exactly what it was.

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
63. The court did NOT say it could not be cited as precedent.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:39 PM
Dec 2023

They simply didn't. As every attorney knows the SC never gives a decision that will apply to everything in the future because there are always some factual differences in every case. Bush v Gore has been cited as precedent thousands of times by attorneys and courts that disagree with you.

P.S. a law journal forum is an opinion by a lawyer and nothing more.

Spazito

(50,643 posts)
68. I took the cite from your very link....
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:42 PM
Dec 2023

the one you recommended we all read. The court doesn't usually add this specific limitation, it is rare to say the least wouldn't you agree.

former9thward

(32,169 posts)
69. Here is an article about it. As of 2020.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:46 PM
Dec 2023

Bush v. Gore has done all right for itself outside the U.S. Supreme Court. Not only has it been cited well over a hundred times by state supreme courts and federal courts of appeals, that tally grows to about 500 when lower courts are included — from litigation over the 2003 vote to recall California Gov. Gray Davis to this year’s court battle over felon reenfranchisement in Florida. That means there’s a chance Bush v. Gore could reprise its role this year at the center of the resolution of the presidential race, should, say, Pennsylvania become to 2020 what Florida was for 2000. (Indeed, the case has already been raised as part of the ongoing litigation about how to handle mail-in ballots in the state.)

It could also help decide the outcome of other key races, a particularly consequential possibility given that control of the Senate is at stake this year. In 2008, for example, Norm Coleman, an incumbent Republican senator from Minnesota, tried to use Bush v. Gore to challenge the process by which election officials decided whether absentee ballots were valid. He was unsuccessful, and his Democratic opponent, the comedian Al Franken, ultimately won the seat.

Over the past two decades, Bush v. Gore has evolved beyond the partisan identity it maintains in the public imagination. An examination of judicial decisions and court filings in more than 150 cases suggests its invocation won’t necessarily benefit one party or the other.

https://www.propublica.org/article/why-bush-v-gore-still-matters

Spazito

(50,643 posts)
71. I also added links in my post that...
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:52 PM
Dec 2023

discuss the issue from a different perspective. As you stated these are opinions of which there are many and are also diverse in their points and, as such, have no influence on the actual decision by the USSC.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
55. The only one believing an internet legend is you
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:26 PM
Dec 2023
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/98/case.pdf

Go to page 109, where the court specifically says that their decision pertains only to the Bush v Gore case:

Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities.
{Emphasis mine}

Maybe you or whoever you're depending on as a source doesn't know how to read language like that in a ruling, but real lawyers certainly do.

pwb

(11,319 posts)
4. If trump is immune imagine what Joe can do now?
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:12 PM
Dec 2023

Break up some monopolies, make it so the rich just have way too much money and not most of it. The court decides for all Presidents.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
24. Well, if he was immune, being a President
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:54 PM
Dec 2023

by their precedent, he could indeed just forgive all the student loan debt.

Polybius

(15,537 posts)
64. He would be imune from crimes
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:39 PM
Dec 2023

Doesn't mean he can make any law he wants without going through Congress.

Response to mobeau69 (Original post)

Torchlight

(3,460 posts)
27. I doubt anything about these cases could be predicated on an 'average'
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:06 PM
Dec 2023

And Smith appears to have both a well-reasoned response as well as a quick counter to every stunt Trump's pulled to date.

Response to Torchlight (Reply #27)

Response to Torchlight (Reply #36)

Response to Torchlight (Reply #43)

Deminpenn

(15,305 posts)
23. In Jones v Clinton
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 02:46 PM
Dec 2023

SCOTUS ruled that presidents can be sued while they are in office for crimes they committed before they took office. Clearly, the allegations in NY (James) fall in that category. The case Bragg brought might, too.

bucolic_frolic

(43,530 posts)
26. Great move. Don't let Trump huff and puff for 9 months, let's have it done now
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:03 PM
Dec 2023

A surprise move, and prevents hot air momentum from building up. Citizens deserve to know too, so they can plan their lives around normal or dictatorship.

edhopper

(33,667 posts)
30. Or they pull a Citizen's United
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:13 PM
Dec 2023

a case where anybody could see that there is no Constitutional right to spend money on politics...free speech for corporations. But then created a new Constitutional Right and a new class of citizen.

So I don't see why they wouldn't say only Congress can try a former President, except they can't. Perfect Catch 22 to get their guy off the hook.

NowISeetheLight

(3,943 posts)
31. TFG & SCOTUS
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:14 PM
Dec 2023

While TFG put three idiots on the court, they haven't exactly always supported him. I can totally see this going against him 6-3 or even a 7-2. I see Alito and Thomas as no votes, but Gorsich, Kavanagh and Barrett could vote yes. I also see Robert's voting yes as he's concerned with the legacy.

bluestarone

(17,132 posts)
33. THIS should be a no brainer for the SC.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:16 PM
Dec 2023

If they sit on it, we'll KNOW what they are all about!. ONE DAY is all it should take!

PortTack

(32,823 posts)
35. Good..cut him off at the knees. He was hoping to go thru the appeals court...wait a few months, appeal
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:17 PM
Dec 2023

More months and then on to the SC probably putting it beyond the election

lees1975

(3,946 posts)
41. He's wasting his time if he doesn't go there first.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:39 PM
Dec 2023

Otherwise, the whole trial and conviction will be overturned by them.

LudwigPastorius

(9,264 posts)
42. There are many things to which Trump is immune.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:40 PM
Dec 2023

Facts, decency, sanity, patriotism, logic...

But, prosecution isn't one of them!

Shermann

(7,489 posts)
45. This is an interesting gamble
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:44 PM
Dec 2023

SCOTUS might do the right thing eventually but do the wrong thing now and stall things until the election has come and gone.

ancianita

(36,238 posts)
47. Here are the Main Documents of both of Jack Smith's latest opposing motions.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:49 PM
Dec 2023
On Saturday:
Memorandum in Opposition by USA as to DONALD J. TRUMP re 167 Motion to Compel and in Opposition to ECF No. 166-1 (Motion for an Order Regarding the Scope of the Prosecution Team) (Windom, Thomas) (Entered: 12/09/2023)

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67656604/181/united-states-v-trump/


Yesterday, Sunday:
Memorandum in Opposition by USA as to DONALD J. TRUMP re 178 Motion for Order (Gaston, Molly) (Entered: 12/10/2023)

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67656604/united-states-v-trump/?page=2

p 2 of 3 pages:

...The Court should not assume at this juncture that no issue can arise that is not involved

in the appeal. For example, the Circuit recently returned the mandate on the Court’s Rule 57.7

order regarding extrajudicial statements, and the Court has jurisdiction to administer that order.

Likewise, nothing about the defendant’s appeal prevents the Court from continuing to enforce—

including, if necessary, by ordering briefing or holding hearings—the protective orders governing

discovery (ECF Nos. 28 and 37) and the order imposing conditions of release on the defendant

(ECF No. 13).

In addition, while the appeal is pending, the Court can make headway on the motions

already before it, including the defendant’s motions to dismiss based on statutory grounds and

selective and vindictive prosecution. The Court can and should properly deny these motions under

Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 37, which provides that a district court retains the authority to

deny pending motions that it otherwise “lacks authority to grant because of an appeal that has been

docketed and is pending.” Fed. R. Crim. P. 37(a)(2). Similarly, if the defendant initiates certain

litigation—as he has done by filing his stay motion—the Court can take it up and resolve it. See,

e.g., Jefferson, ECF No. 199 (hearing on several motions filed by the defendant while defendant’s

Speech or Debate interlocutory appeal was pending); United States v. McDade, No. 92-cr-249,

1994 WL 161243, at *1 (E.D. Pa. Apr. 15, 1994) (resolving defendant’s motion for issuance of

deposition subpoenas while his interlocutory appeal of the denial of his motion to dismiss on

Speech or Debate grounds was pending).

For its part, in light of the public’s strong interest in a prompt trial, the Government will

seek to ensure that trial proceeds as scheduled. In particular, the Government will continue to


p 3 of 3 pgs

meet all of its deadlines in the Court’s pretrial schedule, ECF No. 39. This means that, while the

appeal is pending, although the defendant will not be subjected to the “burdens of litigation,” ECF

No. 178 at 5, the Government will continue to shoulder its own burden. Accordingly, the

Government will provide the defendant and the Court with any notice required by the pretrial

schedule, and more—including, depending on the length of the appellate process, the

Government’s exhibit list, motions in limine, and other pleadings pertaining to the Government’s

trial presentation. Any filings the Government makes according to this Court’s schedule while the

appeal is pending can then be promptly litigated if the Court’s order is affirmed and the mandate

is returned.

To the extent that the defendant is seeking a stay, pending his appeal, of matters implicating

“those aspects of the case involved in the appeal,” Griggs, 559 U.S. at 58, the Court should deny

his motion as unnecessary and duplicative; that divestiture occurred when the defendant filed his

notice of appeal. Otherwise, the Court should decline to issue an order that would prevent it from

resolving pending motions or handling aspects of this case unrelated to the appeal.


Respectfully submitted,

JACK SMITH
Special Counsel

By: /s/ Molly Gaston
Molly Gaston
Thomas P. Windom
Senior Assistant Special Counsels

Demnh2fl

(28 posts)
49. Make them choose now
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:07 PM
Dec 2023

Jack Smith is smart to do this . If they’re in the tank for Trump make the call and stop wasting everyone’s time.
Then he or any other President will be free to kill someone on the White House lawn and not be accountable to anyone. If it is constitutional in their eyes to commit any crime in office then the American Revolution was a waste of blood. Trump can’t be a modern version of King George.

Polybius

(15,537 posts)
67. When will they rule on this?
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 04:41 PM
Dec 2023

Would it be fast-tracked, or potentially at the end of the term in June?

bluestarone

(17,132 posts)
74. Well, to me this is open and shut. I can think of NO lawyers or witness's that need to be called to testify
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 05:11 PM
Dec 2023

This is 100% on the SC. They and only THEY can decide this. Should be TODAY in my books.

C_U_L8R

(45,042 posts)
73. Would they rule that President Biden has unlimited immunity too?
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 05:07 PM
Dec 2023

It could be hilarious to see the maga Justices try to parse their way through this. Frankly, I think Trump is fucked.

malaise

(269,336 posts)
76. Slobby is up shit creek without a paddle
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 05:21 PM
Dec 2023
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-supreme-court/418/683.html

United States Supreme Court

UNITED STATES v. NIXON(1974)

No. 73-1766

Argued: July 08, 1974
Decided: July 24, 1974

Handler

(336 posts)
79. Jack Smith's plan.
Mon Dec 11, 2023, 05:45 PM
Dec 2023

I think Jack Smith is considering the shaky ground SCOTUS is standing on at this time. I believe the court would like less scrutiny at this point.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Breaking - Jack Smith dir...