K&R if You Agree with Krugman & Howard Dean on the "Fiscal Cliff"

[Faryn Balyncd]

Let's Not Make a Deal
Paul Krugman, New York Times

Howard Dean: Let's Drive Over the Fiscal Cliff

The "Fiscal Cliff" Hoax
Time for Change, Democratic Underground

A 'Grand Bargain' on the Fiscal Cliff Could Be a Grand Betrayal
Robert L. Borasage, Institute for America's Future
The Nation, December 3, 2012

[The Magistrate]

1. Done And Done, Sir

[orpupilofnature57]

2. K&R !!!

[FarPoint]

3. K&R

Yes!

[DirkGently]

4. KNR

[Lugnut]

5. K&R! n/t

[myrna minx]

6. Thanks for putting this together. K&R

[Flashmann]

7. I agree

Enthusiastically.........

Over the cliff and down the RWs throat,til they CHOKE!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. I'm there. n/t

[Overseas]

9. K&R. If we really face a Fiscal Cliff, surely now is the time for a tiny transaction tax on Wall

Street trades.

The Too Big To Fail group are also Too Big To Ignore Our Peril and not contribute more.

[JHB]

10. Kickaroonie

[rocktivity]

11. Even Laurence O'Donnell has backtracked

now describing it as a fiscal "curb."


rocktivity

[louis c]

12. Kick in agreement

[Snotcicles]

13. K&R

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Are you sure they agree with each other?

Howard Dean thinks it's the best idea floating around. Paul Krugman thinks it's not too bad, and is good enough to be a fallback position, so that President Obama can say "OK, if you don't go for my proposal, we'll just do nothing and implement the 'cliff', and then carry on talking". Krugman also thinks it will be contractionary, because it implements austerity measures, which isn't what he wants, ideally.

Krugman:

In saying this, I don’t mean to minimize the very real economic dangers posed by the so-called fiscal cliff that is looming at the end of this year if the two parties can’t reach a deal. Both the Bush-era tax cuts and the Obama administration’s payroll tax cut are set to expire, even as automatic spending cuts in defense and elsewhere kick in thanks to the deal struck after the 2011 confrontation over the debt ceiling. And the looming combination of tax increases and spending cuts looks easily large enough to push America back into recession.

Nobody wants to see that happen. Yet it may happen all the same, and Mr. Obama has to be willing to let it happen if necessary.

Why? Because Republicans are trying, for the third time since he took office, to use economic blackmail to achieve a goal they lack the votes to achieve through the normal legislative process. In particular, they want to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, even though the nation can’t afford to make those tax cuts permanent and the public believes that taxes on the rich should go up — and they’re threatening to block any deal on anything else unless they get their way. So they are, in effect, threatening to tank the economy unless their demands are met.
...
It’s worth pointing out that the fiscal cliff isn’t really a cliff. It’s not like the debt-ceiling confrontation, where terrible things might well have happened right away if the deadline had been missed. This time, nothing very bad will happen to the economy if agreement isn’t reached until a few weeks or even a few months into 2013. So there’s time to bargain.

Howard Dean:

So I think we ought to go over the cliff; we ought to bite the bullet; it'll take seven and a half trillion dollars out of our deficit - that's a big number, and there will be sacrifices, but any politician who tells the American people there aren't going to be sacrifices for everybody is a liar.

[SutaUvaca]

15. Done. Love me some Krugman. nt

[smokey nj]

16. Kick!

[forestpath]

17. K&R

[SoapBox]

18. Super kick & r

I agree.

[Scuba]

19. We don't negotiate with terrorists...

... I'll never support cutting a dime from SS, Medicare or Medicaid while the top tax rate (payroll and cap gains) is under 45%.

[southmost]

26. +zillion

[Iggy]

62. Then I Guess You're About to Have a Problem with

numerous Dems in congress who agree "something must be done about 'entitlements'".

[Scuba]

70. Yes, I have a major problem with DINO's.

[Iggy]

72. WHY are they still in office?

[RC]

77. Because too many people do not make a distinction between Liberal/Progressive and DINO

They see the (D) and think Not (R). Too often the are still wrong.

[heaven05]

121. big

problem with the blue dog/conservative democratic traitors/fellow travelers of the Republican/tea party ideology. They helped the rethugs thwart everything that Obama did first term, excepting ACA. Yeah you're right, I got it in for them. Snakes traitors. I hate a traitor.

[harun]

20. Only way we get anything is if we threaten to go over the cliff. Obama has never

done that.

[msongs]

41. lol obama is not "wedded" to his own opening positions. can he go on vacation til Jan? nt

[bullwinkle428]

21. A Happy Thanksgiving K & R for this one!

[Change has come]

22. K & R

[southmost]

23. kickety kick

rec'd

let the tax cuts expire!

[hay rick]

24. Borosage article is a good summary of the case against austerity.

His concluding paragraph:

We are headed into a new era of upheaval. Our money-soaked politics may suffocate growing demands for change. But if Democratic legislators join the president in a grand betrayal, they may witness a powerful Tea Party movement from the left, as Republican legislators have from the right.

K&R.

[kartski]

25. KnR

[UnrepentantLiberal]

27. Why am I not surprised by who kicked this...

and who didn't?

[progressoid]

104. .

[Royal Sloan 09]

28. Kickin-N-Reccin'

[northoftheborder]

29. K&R

[Spirochete]

30. KNR

Back to the top you go

[ProSense]

31. If everyone agrees,

let's do it.

Patty Murray: If GOP Refuses All Tax Hikes, We’ll Let Them Go Up And Start Over
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021791837

Treasury Secretary Calls For Abolishing The Debt Ceiling
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/19/1212691/geithner-abolish-debt-ceiling/

[Fuddnik]

32. Kick and Rec!

Fiscal cliff is nothing but a focus group tested slogan to scare people.


We need a Fiscal Noose to use on anyone who supports this shit.

[Walk away]

33. I'm Ready! Let's go!

[Brother Buzz]

34. The curb only becomes a cliff when the pubs frame the debate

[fleur-de-lisa]

35. K&R

[patrice]

36. K&R + Robert Reich, "Why we should stop obsessing about the Federal budget deficit" link:

http://robertreich.org/post/36001609487

[ancianita]

37. K & R. We're not crossing no damn aisle no damn more.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

38. K&R nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

39. K&R. n/t

[99Forever]

40. K&R

[Ed Suspicious]

42. ...

[WillyT]

43. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Jamaal510]

44. Bernie Sanders said it best; "no deal is better than a bad deal."

Now we just wait and see what happens. I doubt Boehner will get "98% of what I wanted" this time.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

49. 100%

[airplaneman]

45. The fiscal cliff hoax and the debt hoax

The debt hoax - the 16 trillion debt is why there are not enough jobs.
Reality - if the dept went to zero tomorrow it would have no impact on the employment situation.
The fiscal cliff hoax - again this will destroy jobs.
Reality - a more equitable tax system improves the job situation.
-Airplane

[barbtries]

46. knr nt

[yurbud]

47. it's time to stop letting the GOP and their wealthy crybaby owners frame the debate about anything

The Republican Party has decomposed from Bernie in WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S to month old roadkill no longer distinguishable as a dog, cat, or possum.

That makes it even more frustrating that top Dems are pretending the splattered bits of gristle, fur, and bone are twisting their arm.

[rzemanfl]

48. K & R.

[xxqqqzme]

50. There is always pundit

talk of Obama playing chess while his obstructionists are playing checkers...well, break out the cards and chips. Time to call their bluff. The people know what the rethugs are doing - which is why they LOST 2 weeks ago.

[world wide wally]

51. Theres no way we could lose this hand if this was poker and we were willing to place the bet...

"All in on the fiscal cliff"

Bet the farm!

[Malikshah]

52. I'm in the car with Thelma, Louise and Hal Sparks is Driving!!!

Yippee kay-yay mutha-f$#&ers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[colsohlibgal]

53. K&R!

No GB!

[The Wizard]

54. k&r

[robbob]

55. I've said it before

...and I'll say it again; why can't we let ALL tax cuts expire, then introduce a bill to restore tax cuts to the middle and lower classes? Let the GOP block tax relief for the middle class, see how THAT plays out with their constituents.

Am I missing something here? It seems like an easy fix?

[sabrina 1]

65. They could. You're not missing anything imo.

[RC]

78. That is the way this should be played.

Real poker. Too bad it won't happen.

[Smilo]

56. K&R

[reggaehead]

57. You say fiscal cliff

I say double gainer

[AlbertCat]

58. I mean really!....

Since when was a series of steps a cliff?

[Webster Green]

59. K&R!

Right on!

[A Little Weird]

60. K&R

[Live and Learn]

61. K&R nt

[DonCoquixote]

63. K and R

Let the GOP choke down it's own meds, and die of them in 2014, that way we can finally get to work.

[TheKentuckian]

64. K&R

[calikid]

66. K&R n/t

[JDPriestly]

67. What would going over the fiscal cliff mean for the poor, for children

and for the elderly?

As long as it won't hurt those who have no financial resources outside their government assistance, I would like to see them allow the tax cuts to expire provided they bring back the tax cuts for the middle class next year.

[allrevvedup]

101. That's where it gets sticky.

Very happy to rec this post but I wonder if it might be better to kick the can down the road another six months than abruptly terminate safety net programs in the dead of winter. But if some form of interim alternative funding can be secured for anyone relying on the federal extended unemployment benefit I'm all for going over the cliff, if necessary.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

109. In other words:

You'd rather let the bully beat you up for six more months than stand up to him and fight back.

[Hulk]

68. K&R

Point taken!

[socialindependocrat]

69. K&R n/t

[Zorra]

71. k&R nt

[PETRUS]

73. K&R

[mzmolly]

74. Dean is saying that we'll agree to cut

Last edited Thu Nov 22, 2012, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)

our own "pet" programs in order to cut defense etc. I hope all here realize that?

I respect the man and his opinion, as always.

[upi402]

76. Dean made a funny noise

"unforgivable" on CNN

[mzmolly]

80. Yep. Unforgivable!

Especially after the repeated sound enhanced replays.

YEARGH!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

111. Howard Dean is not a liberal

and never has been.

[mzmolly]

129. Who gets to make these decisions?

[rock]

75. K&R

[highplainsdem]

79. K&R

[L0oniX]

81. K & R ...IMO this is a form of trumped up disaster economics.

Question is ...who will profit from it ...and there is where you will find the greedy power hungry predators.

[Duval]

82. K&R n/t

[Festivito]

83. It's better than what the Republicans will let us have.

So let's take it.

[BobbyBoring]

84. K + R!

[Stevepol]

85. K&R!!!

[blackspade]

86. Kickity kick!

[scmoore120]

87. K&R

[Teamster Jeff]

88. K&R

[LeftInTX]

89. K&R

[lsewpershad]

90. K&R

[Odin2005]

91. K&R

[FiveGoodMen]

92. K&R!

[Laelth]

93. k&r n/t

-Laelth

[Doremus]

94. K&R

[juajen]

95. Yep, I totally agree. Drive over the damn cliff!

[veganlush]

96. Kay

and Arrrh!

[entanglement]

97. The goal of the Plutocracy (and its lackeys) is to use this faux "crisis" to force their poisonous

agenda of cuts down the throats of an unsuspecting populace. These creeps hate even the feeble and inadequate social safety nets we have in place today.

[ReRe]

98. K&R

+1000

Let's not make a deal to drive over their imaginary fiscal cliff which in reality is a grand betrayal,
and say we did.

[dwilso40641]

99. K&R

[Jenny_92808]

100. K&R

[me b zola]

102. K&R

[Smickey]

103. K&R n/t

[AdHocSolver]

105. Not only is the "fiscal cliff" a hoax, the Tea Party solution would create an economic disaster.

The Federal deficit is not the problem. The problem is a revenue deficit. Cutting taxes for the rich and the corporations will exacerbate the revenue deficit.

Cutting spending will NOT reduce the deficit. In fact, cutting spending will increase the deficit because jobs will be lost reducing tax revenue still further.

All economies are demand driven. Reducing money for the middle class, the working poor, and those who depend on the social safety nets such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, whose spending helps drive the economy, will further shrink the economy and increase the deficit. At the same time, the wealthy are just "money hoarders" extracting wealth from the economy, just as leeches suck blood from their victims.

The major problem with the U.S. economy is not the Federal deficit, but the trade deficit. Bring jobs that have been offshored back to the U.S. (by rewriting the tax code and renegotiating trade agreements to reduce the unfair competitive advantage given to outsourcers) and many of our economic problems will be corrected.

[zentrum]

106. K and R 1000!

[Vestigial_Sister]

107. Qay & Arrrr

[EmeraldCityGrl]

108. K&R

White House Comment Line 202-456-1111 In case you want to leave comments supporting this position.

[Iggo]

109. Auto-Unrec for 'K&R if..." thread.

I do agree with Krugman and Dean, though.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

112. K & R

[meegbear]

113. I agree with Krugman and Borasage

[UCmeNdc]

114. K&R

[drynberg]

115. We ain't afraid of no stinkin' CLIFF

After all, it beats the hell outta givin' in to those RW crazy demands that are not based on what's best for our Nation, only the Fat Ass Cats that gave millions and billions to the pols. As "W" so memorably said, "Bring 'em on!", cept we mean it.

[lonestarnot]

116. K & R!

[hwmnbn]

117. K&R

[Tutonic]

118. K & R

n/t

[Fumesucker]

119. K&R For Thelma & Louise

[malthaussen]

120. We are the chorus and we agree...

[abelenkpe]

122. K&R nt

[riderinthestorm]

123. Yes, yes, yes and yes to all 4 of these!! Big K&R nt

[idwiyo]

124. K&R

[grahamhgreen]

125. Will this help us win House seats in 2014?

I believe it will.

Once the 'mandatory reductions' kick in, we can introduce bills to help the unemployed and cut middle class taxes, and paint the R's as elitist a as they fight against them.

[leveymg]

126. KNR. No Grand Bargain at the expense of the elderly and most vulnerable Americans.

[grantcart]

127. Me too

[sendero]

128. I just hope...

.. Obama sticks to his guns on this. He needs to just draw the line in the sand and if the pukes want to drive over the cliff, let 'em.

[shanine]

130. K & R

[raouldukelives]

131. K&R nt