Poll: Are tugboats infrastructure?

[Marcus IM]

Based on the lack of tugboat regulations and reduction of tugboats on Baltimore's inner harbor and turning basin.

Compared to bridge disasters and the rebuilding costs, tugboats are inexpensive.

35 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	18 (51%)
	No
	3 (9%)
	Never considered it
	12 (34%)
	Tugboats schmugboats, who needs 'em
	0 (0%)
	I don't know what a tugboat does
	0 (0%)
	Tugboats are too expensive
	0 (0%)
	Tugboats are a librul plot by Chi-Coms and radical leftists
	2 (6%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[getagrip_already]

1. What are you talking about?

The ship had 2 tugs escort it from the dock to the channel and then released it with a harbor pilot on board.

That is 100% standard policy and in no way a cutback.

Where do you get this stuff?

[Marcus IM]

3. Standard policy there. Not everywhere.

Miami cargo harbor and turning basin requires tugs from harbor channel entrance and to exit.

Not the only harbor to do so.

Upon further review, do ya think that this standard procedure needs to be upgraded in Baltimore harbor?

[getagrip_already]

6. Probably some changes, maybe not that specifically

Keeping a tug or two on station at the bridges probably isn't a bad idea. But not sure an attached escort is required.

Every harbor is different. Currents, winds, traffic patterns, it all enters into the coat guard recommendations to the harbor for rules.

One size does not fit all.

I'm just a small boat guy, but I am coast guard licensed, and I've been in and out of some very busy harbors. Not every one needs full tug duty.

[Marcus IM]

9. One thing is consistent, ships break down and cause disasters.

Obviously I'm not talking about pleasure boaters.

I would suggest relatively cheap preventative measures for ships that can take down bridges.

[getagrip_already]

12. Cheap? Lol....

An ocean going tug costs upwards of $25M a year to run.

The tugs typically need to meet the ships a few miles beyond the first buoys, which are out in the ocean. That's where they will transfer the harbor pilot to the ship, which can be a real pucker power operation.

The captains make 7 figures, or very close to it. As do the harbor pilots. Good work if you can get it.

[Marcus IM]

13. Ocean going?

Harbor tugs are not open ocean going vessels.

They are two different things.

[getagrip_already]

18. Last time i checked...

The knee bone is connected to the shin bone....

You are saying you want a tug escort from entrance to exit (I assume you mean dock or anchorage).

Well, where do you think the entrance to a harbor starts?

It starts at the number 1 and 2 buoys, which are out in the ocean, not in the harbor. Or in the case of Baltimore harbor, i suppose its out in the Chesapeake bay (not my area, dont know the waterways). Not quite the ocean, but beyond the durability of a harbor tug.

So how far out do you want them escorted?

Leave it to the experts. Yes, they didn't have sufficient protocols in place. I agree.

But I'm not sure a 50 mile escort is the answer.

Look at a marine chart.

[EX500rider]

20. Not to mention that at some point you will have made the port too expensive to use..

...and ship traffic will go somewhere cheaper.

[Marcus IM]

23. Maybe for large ships that go under bridges.

Don't know why you are going at the extremes.

I don't know of bridges 50 miles out in the ocean, do you?

I'm thinking that it's entirely reasonable that simple and effective measures be undertaken, like tugboat escorts for large container ships that can knock down bridges they go under.

I don't get how there could be pushback against this. Unless one is a container ship owner or leasee.

[getagrip_already]

25. I was thinking that from baltimore to the end of the channels it must be about that

Even before you get out into the bay.

[Marcus IM]

28. How many bridges between this bridge and the harbor entrance?

That's what my conversation is about. Protecting bridges from being knocked down by mega container ships.

[getagrip_already]

29. There is at least one more conventional bridge

Beyond the Scott Keyes bridge and then there is the Chesapeake bay bridge tunnel.

While you couldn't knock out shipping traffic on the bay bridge tunnel, you could possibly take out the roadway. That would be a pita, but not crippling.

The waterway is critical, but that is safe.

[EX500rider]

17. Generally the Harbor Pilot comes out on the Pilot Boat and the tugs come later

[Marcus IM]

19. I am well aware of how harbor pilots work.

Obviously, not all ports have the same regulations regarding tugboats managing large container ships going through channels with bridges that can be destroyed by them.

Seems like it might be worth reconsidering, especially now that another major bridge has been destroyed by a ship without tugboats guiding it.

[getagrip_already]

21. Depends on the cargo and vessel type

Lng gets tugs from cradle to grave (hopefully not literally). Also any vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver.

Nuclear subs will also be escorted in from about 5 miles out. Usually a tug will follow along with a couple of ribs.

So it depends.

[spooky3]

2. Bloomberg radio reporters seemed to suggest that Maersk

Is likely liable (whether due to engine/power failure or captain error), and that the govt could go after them to reimburse all the costs, though this would take time if it had to go through courts. An analyst guest said Maersk could sustain even a multimillion dollar hit.

[cloudbase]

5. Maersk is the charterer, not the owner or operator.

[spooky3]

27. I presume the analyst was aware of that and is also

Aware of liability law.

[EX500rider]

4. The bigger question is why more States didn't add bridge support protection after the Sunshine Skyway event in 1980

It now looks like this:

[Marcus IM]

7. Or require tugboats until they reach the harbor exit.

Tugboats are cheap compared to bridge collapses.

They save lives too.

One would think it is fair to require them considering the capacity for disaster and history these mega ships have.

[EX500rider]

8. That would be up to the US Coast Guard & local Harbor Masters

But a tugboat is no guarantee, they could still have accidents due to fog etc

[Marcus IM]

10. Ships with power have radar. Fog isn't an issue for avoiding bridges

Tugboats have radar also, so if the mega ships were to lose power, tugs would still be able to redirect ships with power failure.

That's what tugboats are for.

[EX500rider]

14. Radar does not always work either

Summit Venture was involved in a fatal collision with the original Sunshine Skyway Bridge in Tampa Bay on May 9, 1980. While negotiating a required turn in the narrow channel during a storm, the radar failed, and the freighter struck one of the piers on the southbound span of the bridge.
Tugs can also have engine failures. Protecting the bridge supports with protective bumpers like the Sunshine Skyway has is a must IMO

[Marcus IM]

24. You make my case. TY

It would be a VERY implausible situation for multiple ships to all lose rader at the same time. Not enough data to figure the odds, but it would be very long odds.

I also agree with the idea of buttressing the abutments.

[pinkstarburst]

11. Are those things out in the water bollards to stop a huge freight vessel?

And do they have the mass necessary to stop a huge freight vessel moving at however many knots loaded down with containers if it loses power?

[EX500rider]

15. Yes

And if you notice, the center supports also have a island built around them

[Turbineguy]

16. Looking at the video....

They lost power several times. It could have been running the bow thruster before getting an extra generator on line caused the second blackout. In any case, there was a smoke plume just before the allision, presumably the emergency full astern bell on the main engine.

I think an escort tug would not have had time to avoid this accident.

In the Puget Sound tankers are required to take escort tugs.

[brooklynite]

22. It's not obvious that a tug could have stopped the forward motion of a cargo carrier

Captains don’t put their ships into neutral and let the tug do all of the movement.

[Marcus IM]

26. Tugs don't push from behind or pull from the bow.

Harbor tugs operate from the sides, redirecting forward motion of inbound and outbound ships in motion.

I agree it's not obvious when thrust and control was lost. Having tugs in place could well have redirected it. Especially with the ship moving at 8 knots or under.