General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNothing justifies this response
Looks like more and more Dems are saying this publicly
Stop selling them weapons and giving them money.
Thanks Peter Welsh - that was refreshing.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
brush
(61,033 posts)Phew!
stollen
(1,148 posts)At Israel's expense
brush
(61,033 posts)
malaise
(296,780 posts)That is all
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Killed by Hamas terrorists are irrelevant? The comments on this thread are pretty sickening.
WheelWalker
(9,407 posts)TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Why?
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 6, 2024, 02:37 AM - Edit history (2)
is opposed to stopping the war so he can stay out of jail. He's also opposed to a two-state solution.
He needs to be kicked to the curb by Israel.
qwlauren35
(6,309 posts)Correct me if I'm wrong, but they need us more than we need them. But they sure don't act like it.
Public opinion is that the war needs to end and our politicians seem to be ignoring us. This is really pissing me off.
There are many Jews who think Israel has gone too far. But I'm not sure if they are in the majority. Perhaps if it gets to that point, our politicians will not be so afraid. The Jewish community has a powerful voting bloc. I also know that there is lots of support in the evangelical Christian community for Israel. They vote too... obviously. And they donate.
I can only think that there are politicians who think that either their campaign chests will be lighter, or their voters will abandon them if they contradict Israel.
When politicians can't do the right thing, it's time to vote them out.
There are many issues at stake in this election. Israel shouldn't be one of them... but it is.
Orrex
(67,201 posts)we'd have found a way to stop giving them endless billions decades ago.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Which country has been a better American ally than Israel over the last 40 years? Perhaps the UK, or West Germany/Germany, and France. That’s it.
Orrex
(67,201 posts)which has bombed the most civilian hospitals and starved the most children?
How many innocent Palestinians must Israel kill before you consider downgrading them from America's list of BFFs?
I'll disclaim now that I've read a great many of your posts on this subject, and I am not disposed to waste time or effort in helping you to un-drink the Kool-Aid, so don't expect a lengthy exchange here.
choie
(6,943 posts)best allies?
choie
(6,943 posts)best allies?
AZ8theist
(7,443 posts)They want to usher in the "Armageddon" or the "final battle" or some such other ridiculous Buy Bull BULLSHIT.
Trust me, the fanatical Christians hate the Jews almost as much as the Arabs do.....
So the hatred and bigotry and religious inspired violence will go on and on and on......because there is no "final battle" coming. At least not in the next 1 million lifetimes. Humans will go extinct before there is peace in the ME.
When Iran gets the bomb (Thanks Dotard...you stupid fuckwad) and strikes Israel, they will retaliate and the whole world will end up burning. The planet will survive..........AFTER humans are ended.
It's all so fucking pointless.......
Scrivener7
(59,741 posts)All Mixed Up
(597 posts)They support Israel because Israel is the only non-Muslim power in the region and has been a stalwart ally of the US in every Middle East endeavor the country has sought out over the last 40 years.
erronis
(24,053 posts)You did say "over the last 40 years" which conveniently skips this horrific attack.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship.[5] Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.[6] Others, including survivors of the attack, have rejected these conclusions and maintain that the attack was deliberate.[7][8]
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)Before it left for that 6th Fleet deployment, it was being repaired in Norfolk at the same Navy Yard pier as my destroyer (USS Dahlgren). The crews
fraternized & hit the beach (got drunk in local dives) together.
Both ships shoved off at about the same time. My ship to Vietnam's Tonkin Gulf, and the unarmed Liberty to be later targeted by Israeli jets and gunboats in broad daylight, in int'l waters 100 miles off Gaza, flying the American flag, and continually fired on with sailors in the water.
All Mixed Up
(597 posts)In fact, the US had to persuade Israel from not attacking Iraq in 1990 or 1991 because they launched an attack on Israel (Iraq doing so knowing if Israel responded, the Muslim-led countries that supported the US coalition would rescind that support).
My point, though, is that many Evangelicals are neocons who see Israel as the only western force in the region. It's not just tied to some doomsday prophecy but militarily they are perceived as extremely valuable in a region dominated by Islam.
erronis
(24,053 posts)Appreciate your additional analysis. It's a damn complicated region alliances as fluid as sand dunes.
COL Mustard
(8,271 posts)USS Liberty was my first thought.
Attilatheblond
(9,000 posts)who believe that city must become the capitol of Israel as part of bringing about the end times.
Have also read, over the years, that some evangelicals believe a certain (unknown) number of 'souls' must be born before their Christ returns. That is one of the underlying reasons for their opposition to abortion and birth control.
AZ8theist
(7,443 posts)
rampartc
(5,835 posts)after the last drop of oil has been burned.
malaise
(296,780 posts)Rec
The real problem is the truth about US and Western foreign policy in the ME
haele
(15,448 posts)They don't care about Israeli people, they care about the prophecy.
Any Jew or Arab that is actually concerned about the region should never try to kid themselves about any Right Wing based Christian organizational support for or against Israel. That includes the more fascistic orthodox/established churches as well as the prosperity gospel storefront pop-up churches. Both the grifters and the true believers.
To the true believers, it's about the End of the World and the return of a Jesus Triumphant, not any future peace or prosperity in the region. To the grifters, it's about making money off the True Believers and who cares about what happens in some pissant region halfway across the world?
Haele
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)sarisataka
(22,709 posts)Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)And this:
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.
Albert Camus
Both sides in Gaza claim they're killing civilians for "the welfare of the people".
Of course both sides claim to have God on their side to justify the slaughter.
LauraInLA
(2,248 posts)Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)See Auschwitz, Dachau, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, My lai, Rotterdam, etc for examples. Many more are available throughout history.
LauraInLA
(2,248 posts)Or that we should try to minimize civilian casualties but recognize that they will occur?
I’m thinking about Ukraine as I write this.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)And the attempt to starve people to death. All for a good cause of course.
I often wonder about the actual people who follow the orders to kill, starve, torture other humans on command for some "good cause".
When I was in the military I sometimes worried about being ordered to kill someone for "love of country" or for the sake of LBJ or Nixon anit-communist creds.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,612 posts)Unarmed humanitarian workers, civilians and children are not at war. They are innocent victims.
RubyRose
(319 posts)Worth it to prevent my brothers from having to invade Japan.
choie
(6,943 posts)if they think your parents were right.
EX500rider
(12,626 posts)
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)I didn't actually have much to say about at the time. I was born in 1944 and I'm not sure if I could even speak when it ended.
You?
former9thward
(33,424 posts)And seem to endorse. "No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people." The U.S. killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in attempting to defeat its enemies. It was a cause that justified the death of innocent people. No, I was not alive in WW II.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)Killing 1 or hundreds of thousand of innocent people is a war crime.
Mountainguy
(2,145 posts)Somewhere close to 70k French civilians were killed by allied bombing to even make D-Day possible. That doesn't count the cost of pushing the Nazis back into Germany and then ending the European war. But I suppose we could have just let the Nazis do what they wanted and made sure we didn't kill any civilians that way.
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)and that Jews were a dangerous enemy.
I'm against killing innocent people, anywhere, by anybody.
Here's a hypothetical situation. You're in the military of some country and your commander orders you to shoot civilians, men, women, children for the protection of your country and people. The civilians are no threat to you.
Would you?
It's an question that's impossible to answer unless you facing it right now or have already faced it and acted on it before.
I don't know if I would. But, I hope I wouldn't.
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Did the UK commit a war crime when it retaliated against Germany? Did the U.S. commit a war crime when it invaded Afghanistan after 9/11?
Ping Tung
(4,370 posts)Was using Agent Orange in Vietnam a war crime? Is starving civilians a war crime.?
Is war itself a crime?
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Such as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Some are justified, such as the U.S. war on Japan and Germany in WW 2, the U.S. attack on Afghanistan following 9-11, and the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.
Civilians have died in every single war ever fought. Targeting civilians—like Hamas did on 10/7 is a war crime—but Israel has not engaged in any war crimes and Israel has not intentionally targeted civilians. You seem to be opposed to war as a general matter, and that’s a commendable position, but not a realistic one.
OrangeJoe
(559 posts)AIPAC the powerful pro-Likud lobby for Israel is a huge donor to political campaigns. Politicians are loath to cross them. Representatives in a congressional district that favors their party find themselves primaried if they vary even one step off the Likud definition of supporting Israel.
Look up the story of former Representative Andy Levin. He is a rabbi, a self described Zionist, and a liberal Democrat from the most prominent Jewish Democratic family in Michigan. He dared to sponsor a bill which would have restricted US foreign aid from financing illegal settlements on the West Bank. That was it for him. AIPAC poured millions into his primary and he was gone. The evil genius of this was that EVERYBODY in Congress (I'm a former Hill staffer & I know a lot of people still working there) took note of this. The message: We'll do this to one of our own if they step out of line. Defeating Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib does not have nearly the impact of whacking someone who is seen as a member of the family.
Until Citizens United is overturned and we have publicly financed elections the big donors of all stripes are going to run the show.
tableturner
(1,838 posts)"There are many Jews who think Israel has gone too far. But I'm not sure if they are in the majority." I'm one, and it IS the majority! Netanyahu is the foremost cause of antisemitism in the world today!
Wounded Bear
(64,419 posts)
Didn't really post much about it because of the toxic rhetoric being posted around here. Israel is basically writing recruitment ads for the terrorists.
dai13sy
(570 posts)Why don't people realize the answer is right in front of us? It's sad and scary at the same time.
KS Toronado
(23,730 posts)but there's only so much he can do when Bibi appears he's on a road to total destruction of Palestine. 
Scrivener7
(59,741 posts)And Dems are trying to get him to.
The amendment, which has the backing from the chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations, Armed Services and Intelligence committees, comes after Biden went around lawmakers twice in December to send more than $250 million of weaponry to Israel. Bypassing Congress with emergency determinations for arms sales is an unusual step that has in past administrations been met with resistance from lawmakers who normally have a period of at least 15 to 30 days to weigh in on proposed weapons transfers and, in some cases, block them.
KS Toronado
(23,730 posts)Your article is from a right leaning author. 
Celerity
(54,613 posts)you said
KS Toronado
(23,730 posts)Keep in mind I'm no expert but I got the impression they were not favorable to Democrats, could be they're
like Chuck Todd and do the both sides crap.
Celerity
(54,613 posts)You made a claim about her, one meant to delegitimise the AP article the other poster put up.
I see nothing on balance that rises to a level wherein the above-mentioned slating attempt is grounded in a factual basis to the point that warrants the article worthy of being dismissed out of hand on mere ideological pretext.
KS Toronado
(23,730 posts)
Celerity
(54,613 posts)Good day as well.
AverageOldGuy
(3,976 posts)Give them small arms and light machine gun ammo period. No bombs, rockets, missiles, or artillery ammo. Nothing that goes “boom”
TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)But not Israel?
marble falls
(71,993 posts)Scrivener7
(59,741 posts)I've mostly been sitting them out. I imagine a lot of people have been doing the same.
marble falls
(71,993 posts)... been making comments when it is just too one-sided against Gaza.
But we need to talk about this.
WheelWalker
(9,407 posts)
Docreed2003
(18,714 posts)These threads have become so repetitive I can almost predict what people will say before I click on the thread. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who's sitting them out
Ford_Prefect
(8,631 posts)We need to take the same approach towards those funding Hamas. Which is to say encourage them by whatever means we have to stop sending Hamas money & weapons.
maxsolomon
(38,891 posts)But we do fund the Palestinian Authority - hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Would you like to make our aid to them contingent? Trump did.
Ford_Prefect
(8,631 posts)Trump is an ignorant ass who has no respect for the subtleties of diplomatic engagement nor humanity at large.
Iran is not the only source enabling Hamas. We have put pressure on Qatar to stop funneling money to them. We can make it difficult for arms and other support to reach them too.
maxsolomon
(38,891 posts)So we tolerate their ongoing ties with Hamas. It's proved useful in ceasefire negotiations - or at least it did.
Often options are limited to the least worst.
marble falls
(71,993 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 5, 2024, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)
... Israel $10Billion a year and the rest of the planet got to share a billion or two. Israel is always the top aid recipient and gets the the most of it.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)The last year of the Carter administration aid to Israel was $5 Billion. During the Reagan years the aid dropped to the $2 billion to $3 billion range.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel-1949-present
malaise
(296,780 posts)
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . 5 wars with Hamas. Each time, those without understanding of the situation made Israel stop before completing the destruction of Hamas. Each time Hamas has considered that a victory and returned stronger than before. This culminated in the slaughter of October 7. If the world stops this war before Hamas is defeated, they will return stronger, better trained, and with far more weapons. Then, they will slaughter more innocent civilians in Israel.
This is like quitting WWII when the Nazis were still in power because the world didn't like the deaths of up to 2 million civilian German deaths.
That is all.
BannonsLiver
(20,687 posts)Have had several tell me that there was no moral difference between the Allies and Axis during WW2. Let that nuttery sink in.
JustAnotherGen
(38,067 posts)That's a quality and extent of ignorance I can't comprehend.
Magoo48
(6,723 posts)
Snackshack
(2,589 posts)..at the foot print of both the GS and TWB from 1947-2024 you will see a stunning shrinkage of livable space. When you paint a people into a corner they will usually fight back in order to extend their lives and protect their family. This is pretty much Universal. I know of no one on the Southern or Northern border of America that would passively allow what has been taking place for decades, deemed illegal in a court of law but never stop and just be like...
"Dang it,... okay take it.
No- that simply does not happen and history has 1 example after another showing exactly what does. This is not rocket science. It is simple humanity.
To me this is the nuts and bolts of this issue. Not what was promised by an omnipotent being... that honestly should have stayed out of real estate according to what i have been told.
malaise
(296,780 posts)deny them rights and steal their land while calling yourselves democratic. Spare me.
honest.abe
(9,238 posts)TexasDem69
(2,317 posts)Nobody here has proposed one, other than Israel stop and Hamas stay in power
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... and you know this by now or you should.
Aussie105
(8,014 posts)While Palestinians are corralled and restrained from feeling safe and having a decent standard of living, Hamas will always have willing fighters.
Perhaps the US should stop giving/selling weapons to Israel, and channel all of the aid money to Palestine instead.
Rebuild infrastructure, get viable industries going, give Palestinians a decent and stable life, and Hamas will wither.
What Israel is doing is strengthening Hamas, not weakening it.
(And America ain't helping the situation.)
Aussie105
(8,014 posts)"So do carry on, keep killing!"
. . . said no one ever caught up in a war zone.
If I was to list all the reasons for going to war, I can't see any one reason that justifies mass slaughter of civilians.
You started it! Nope.
We want your land. Nope.
We want your natural resources. Nope.
My religion is offended by yours. (aka 'God is on my side.') Nope.
You don't look/act/talk like me. Nope.
It's good for the human race. Nope.
(Did I forget any?)
So why do supposedly civilized countries bother? (Hypothetical question, obvious answer is obvious.)
malaise
(296,780 posts)And yet they use them over and over and over again - and learn nothing.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)is all the justification anyone needs.
Don't want nothing? Don't start nothing.
Come murdering, raping, mutilating, and kidnapping and you signed up to be settled up.
No one is going to sit for attacks in order to protect the attackers. That is ridiculous.
Suck it for peace is a nonstarter. How about ceasing the attacks, releasing the hostages, and surrendering.
Worked out well for Japan and Germany.
Richard D
(10,018 posts)It just boggles my mind that so many people can't see that simple, irrefutable logic.
leftstreet
(41,023 posts)Richard D
(10,018 posts)H2O Man
(79,114 posts)A relative I've discussed this with called me to say that he has changed his mind, and thinks Democrats have to stop enabling this horror.
malaise
(296,780 posts) 
