UN reportedly just cut in half the # of children & women claimed killed in Gaza

[mcar]

Even the UN is finally admitting that they fell for Hamas' propaganda.

Link to tweet

The UN reportedly just cut in half the # of children & women claimed killed in Gaza since the Palestinian’s attacked Israel. I’ve been saying all along that we shouldn’t trust Hamas’ numbers, and everyone, including the media, said oh no, they’re real. They’re not.

[RandySF]

1. JFC and nobody listened to me.

[mcar]

2. MSM breathlessly reported every one of their lies

Wonder how they'll report on this?

[lapucelle]

107. Last week, a breathless, uncritical MSM believed a Hamas press release

and rushed to report what Hamas had claimed as "news":

Hamas agrees to a ceasefire

-------------------------------------------------------------------

That lie continues to spread, even here.

The truth:

US: Hamas claimed to accept ceasefire offer, but ‘that’s not what they did’

US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller pushes back on Hamas’s claim yesterday that it had accepted the ceasefire proposal that was on the table.

Israel had agreed to what US Secretary of State Antony Blinken described as a “generous” hostage deal proposal late last month,” Miller explains at a press briefing. “That’s the offer that was on the table.”

“Hamas seemed to make clear in their public statements that they accepted that offer yesterday. That is not what they did. They responded with amendments or a counter-proposal, and we’re working through the details of that now,”[/b] he says, noting that CIA chief Bill Burns is in Cairo along with delegations from Israel, Hamas and Qatar.

snip=====================

Miller notes that most media outlets reported Hamas’s statement that it had accepted the Qatari and Egyptian mediators’ hostage deal proposal at face value.

“I don’t blame the reporting. It’s what the [Hamas] statement said. But it’s not an accurate reflection of what happened… Hamas did not accept a ceasefire proposal. Hamas responded and in their response made several suggestions.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-hamas-claimed-to-accept-ceasefire-offer-but-thats-not-what-they-did/

[mcar]

109. They absolutely did

The "oh, wait" part that comes after gets next to no attention.

[womanofthehills]

9. Where is it being reported?

Link??? Anything??

[RandySF]

14. I knew not to trust Hanas

Remember when they even said that the U.S. killed Palestinians with the humanitarian air drops?

[LeftInTX]

16. Here, but it looks the UN changed their reporting. From bodies to positive ID

The % of men increased from 30 to 40% after identification.
Children went from 42% to 32%
Women went from 27% to 20%
10,000 are unidentified.


Once you ID someone, it's easy to determine their age.
Men may also be easier to ID.
I have no answer for the getting the wrong sex.

May 8th based on positive ID
May 6th based on reported fatalities

Israel states that it has killed at least 16,000 Hamas gunmen


https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215


https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213

[mopinko]

22. so they wouldnt b counted as fighters.

[wnylib]

57. Hamas trains children to expect to be warriors.

By age 16, the boys are active fighters. Some of those dead 16 year old fighters get counted as civilian casualties.

?si=kWG0m5g065hdD_ZU

?si=chqL89uB2yDOnjTH

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

[LeftInTX]

63. Back when Al Jazeera was actually critical of Hamas.

That's so sad for the kids.

[wnylib]

101. Yes, very sad. There are other reports of Hamas

using children to carry messages and explosives between fighting camps. The explosives are disguised in vegetable market bags. Children are sent out after battles to assess the situation while fighters stay hidden behind. The assumption is that IDF soldiers will not directly attack the children. Unfortunately, those kids can get caught in any remaining crossfire shots, or unexploded ordinance.

I did not link any of those reports because the source is IDF, which anti Israel factions woukd not accept as credible.

I also saw a video last night of elementary school children, including girls, being taught that sacrificing themselves in battle is a holy mission. They are being raised in a culture of martyrdom and accept it as their destiny. Young children are used for delivering messages and older boys become active fighters by age 16. The girls accept that it will be an honor and duty to sacrifice their children to a holy mission.

I do not remember the source of the video and could not find it today.

This is what Golda Meir meant when she said that peace would come when they love their children more than they hate Israel.

[Earthrise]

50. Thanks for clarifying why the numbers changed. Social psychology

principle says that using big numbers tends to reduce critical thinking about any message.

[Celerity]

140. Thank you for being one of the very few on this thread to see what actually happened with the numbers.

[JustAnotherGen]

182. Kick

Because of a lot of people don't understand that the number of deaths didn't change - it's WHO has been killed that has changed. Positive ID will do that.

[jimfields33]

19. I did. It's repulsive that Hamas raised the number of deaths just to get people to jump on

the hate Israel bandwagon. So many believed Hamas!!!!!!

[claudette]

51. Except it

Isn't necessary to increase the number of deaths reported to know that Israeli forces are STILL killing and maiming innocents as we speak.

[elias7]

131. Yes, and there's still a war going on

I just think you and others could lend some credence to the position that the IDF really does try to avoid civilian casualties, difficult to do when Hamas uses them as humans shields. But what would you have Israel do? Just cease and wait for the next time Hamas does another 10/7 as they said they will?

[claudette]

133. There is

no justification for the senseless killing of innocents in Gaza. It hasn’t worked so far. Israel is supposed to have great intelligence network. Find the TRUE culprits. Then act.

[Beastly Boy]

142. Tell this to the true culprits.

Is there justification for taking and holding hostages? Is there justification for the terrorists hiding in the most heavily populated areas of Gaza and using civilians as human shields? is there justification for them to brag about senseless killings of innocents in Gaza, the more the better, as a brilliant strategy and a key to victory over Israel?

It's not like these are some recent revelations that no one ever noticed or could not have anticipated. Yet, all of this is being routinely overlooked, downplayed and whitewashed as Israel is acting against the true culprits who can stop civilian losses tomorrow but have no intention to do so.

No, there is no justification for that.

[claudette]

150. Ok

OMG Bye.

[Beastly Boy]

151. Ok, OMG, whatever you say

[betsuni]

152. +1

[William769]

68. They really didn't need to inflate the numbers

People were ready to jump on for 'the hate Israel bandwagon'.

[RandomNumbers]

139. Lots of people were already on that bandwagon, of course. nt

[Ace Rothstein]

80. Because they know there are a lot of useful idiots out there who will carry water for them.

[SoFlaBro]

114. I don't take jack shit at face value from a fucking Hamas scumbag shit eating terrorist.

[Torchlight]

3. Not that it minimizes the tragic deaths of victims on all sides

but it does tend to validatem my opnion that "if Hamas says it, assume it a falsehood wrapped up in sanctimonious half-truths until proven otherwise." Putin and trump and the only others I concistently apply that sentiment to.

[mcar]

5. That's exactly right

Not minimizing the deaths of innocent victims, Israel, Palestinian, etc.

[womanofthehills]

10. We don't even know who said it

There is no link to source.
One person on Twitter saying this and he posts no source

[JustAnotherGen]

145. You can go directly to the OCHA data here

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217

Bypass social media - go to the source. My link will be updated to the 10th.

[getagrip_already]

4. even that number is probably high by several times.....

The ugly fact is that as high as it is likely to be, we just have no idea, and the only numbers being put out are from hamas, hamas doctors, hamas politicians, and hamas media. Oh, and hamas sympathetic un personell.

Now that un aid is being cut off, they are getting sensitive, but still not realistic.

[womanofthehills]

11. Many think the number is low

Because of the thousand under the rubble not being included.

[getagrip_already]

17. it's the number reported that is high

if there are any under rubble, it will raise the eventual number, but you can't start with a number that is 10x too high and assume it is low because of unkown bodies.

If we don't know the surface count, the rubble count is even more of an unknown.

What we do know is the oct 7th assasination count.

Everyone else is the result of that. Hamas is in full control of what is happening. They could return the hostages and stop shooting any time. The civilian deaths are as much their fault as those firing the shots at hamas.

[ShazzieB]

62. Your last paragraph can't be repeated often enough!

Which is why I'm going to repeat most of it right here, with added emphasis:

Hamas is in full control of what is happening. They could return the hostages and stop shooting any time. The civilian deaths are as much their fault as those firing the shots at hamas.

[womanofthehills]

120. List of kids names & ages

Look how many are babies - this list is a few months old.

https://x.com/ajenglish/status/1753401017469633010?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[NoRethugFriends]

29. You want to tell us who these "many" are?

[AloeVera]

81. Critical thinkers?

Anyone seeing the mass destruction of 2000 lb dumb bombs and other bombs dropped by the tens of thousands on a caged-in high-density civilian population?

There are many of us, thankfully.

[NoRethugFriends]

93. I assume you're on the ground there with that knowledge.

You and the other "critical thinkers"

[AnrothElf]

154. I think you mean, "Do your own researchers" LOL

[Torchlight]

36. Those 'many' being "One person on Twitter saying this and he posts no source"?

As I've said about this particular topic numerous times, it's broadest, most obvious and colorful flaw in these parts is an orthodox insitence on holding others to a standard we ourselves often reject when inconvenient,

[yardwork]

6. I keep reading that there's no support for Hamas on DU.

When posters uncritically repost statements generated by Hamas, that is support for Hamas.

[Cha]

12. Yeah, it doesn't track.

Link to tweet

[claudette]

32. How does any of this

disagreement about "numbers" justify what Israel is doing to the INNOCENT Palestinians in Gaza. Why keep killing them when Hamas is not being defeated by innocents dying?

[Torchlight]

40. It neither justifies, nor attempts to justify

the tragic deaths of innocents within the conflict from all nations. It simply speaks to criticism of a national journal for reporting unverified numbers.

[Cha]

41. Hamas Ghosts are GD fucking Liars that Started This Shit

By Slaughtering Israelis who were at Musical Peace Festival.. and Spread their Sadistic Killing out from there

ETA.. some don’t like seeing the truth.

[claudette]

45. Ok

Bye

[atreides1]

179. .

[sheshe2]

77. Why?

-Why did Hamas brutally attack innocent citizens in Israel on 10/07?

-Why did they break the ceasefire?

-Why did they commit the most heinous attacks, mass murder, gang rapes, mutilation, burn women and children alive and bound together?

-Why did they celebrate these atrocities by parading them through the town in their trucks?

-Why did they take hostages?

-Why haven't they returned the rest of the hostages, dead or alive?

-Why haven't they laid down their arms and agreed to a ceasefire?

They don't want it to end and they have proven that they don't give a damn about their own people as they hide among them. I see a lot of condemnation of Israel and little of Hamas. That is just plain wrong.

[mcar]

85. Why did people start "pro-Palestine" protests

within 24 hours of the 10/7 atrocities? How could that have been put together so quickly?

Way more condemnation of Israel than Hamas. Way too much support of a terrorist group.

[sheshe2]

97. Well organized and funded 'protests'.

It's almost like someone knew about this in advance. The protests didn't start within 24 hours of the attack without help.

[mcar]

110. It's been a long and well planned campaign, she

Both the hideous atrocities of 10/7 and the propaganda campaign.

[sheshe2]

116. Agreed.

Sad so many fell for it.

[Mountainguy]

86. Whatever innocent people there are in Palestine...

they aren't the first and won't be the last to be caught in a war.

[Cha]

96. Well Done, she.. TY for Asking Why to All these Acts of Sadistic Brutality by Geocidal Hamas.

Link to tweet

[sheshe2]

98. Thanks Cha.

It boggles my mind that people seem to ignore what came first.

The sheer magnitude, the horrors of the attack that day were meant to provoke a reaction, to make them react aggressively. They got the exact reaction they were looking for.

[Cha]

102. Yes Hamas did.. and Yes to the Rest

of your post..

Mahalo

[Tarheel_Dem]

99. Damn straight! All the right questions.

[sheshe2]

100. Thank you, Tarheel.

[Tarheel_Dem]

104. Dear she, it is nothing short of amazing how the aggressor in this whole shitstorm has wound up becoming the victim.

We really have stepped through the looking glass. I mean, WTF did Hamas think was gonna happen after 10/7? And you're absolutely right, Hamas doesn't give a shit about the people of Gaza, but you don't hear a peep about them from these so-called "protestors".

[sheshe2]

113. You are right, the aggressor is now the victim.

IMO, Hamas knew exactly where this was going. It is not like this happened overnight. This was a carefully planned and coordinated attack. Outside players were involved, enemies of Israel and her allies. Most likely they were helped by Russia, China and Iran. Look at the protests that sprang into action 24 hours after the attack on 10/07.

Coordination.

[Tarheel_Dem]

153. "Russia, China and Iran". This is why I shake my damn head whenever I hear someone suggest that we should...

withhold assistance from Israel. People speak as if Hamas were the only enemy in the region. Unfortunately, Israel has not only Hamas on its doorstep, but there's the Houthis, not to mention Hezbollah, all of whom would like to wipe Israel off the map. I don't celebrate the loss of life in Gaza, but the Palestinian people and their champions around the world should place the blame where it belongs for the highly choreographed & well "coordinated" attack that took place on 10/7.

[Hekate]

46. And that's the truth

[iemanja]

58. When posters give a shit about human life

they are accused of supporting Hamas. I can't imagine being the kind of person who thinks this is acceptable:
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18887167

[yardwork]

135. Hamas considers that acceptable. They created it.

[iemanja]

162. You think Oct 7 was the beginning of the conflict?

Last edited Sun May 12, 2024, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Your sense of history is flawed. For example, here is a sampling of Israeli and Palestinian deaths since 2000, long before 2023. https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

Moreover, Hamas is responsible for the atrocities it has committed, for the many rapes, murders and kidnappings. The Israeli government is responsible for the annihilation of Gaza because it has chosen to kill civilians, reduce the occupied territory to rubble, and treat its prisoners in ways that violate the Geneva convention. Hamas has not forced Israel to behave barbarically. Netanyahu has chosen to execute the war in that fashion. Pretending the Israeli government bears no responsibility for its own actions is unconscionable.

[iemanja]

163. Duplicate

[JustAnotherGen]

146. I can't see anything

At the link?

[iemanja]

161. It links to a DU post

with a series of photos of Gaza. I'm not sure why you can't see it. I can. Perhaps try clearing your cache?

[JustAnotherGen]

168. Someone pm'd

I think I have the OP blocked

[William769]

72. I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell those people.

[mcar]

84. This. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

94. No, that's not support for Hamas...

No more than reposting statements from the Israeli govt is support for an extreme RW government that's carrying out violations of international law and making open statements about wiping out/ expelling all Palestinians from territory that isn't Israels.

Those Westerners who support Hamas tend to be fond of violent Islamist groups whose stances are the exact extreme opposite of what most (I don't believe in using absolutes as there'll likely always be one exception somewhere) of us at DU believe. People who support Hamas don't tend to criticise Hamas and will defend the attack on Oct 7 and they're also not shy about making their support known. I've seen some who are critical of Israel's response 'asked' if they support Hamas, in what becomes some sort of purity test, where if you don't criticise Hamas harshly enough, you've failed the test. It reminds me of when I was asked if I supported Trump, which was an absolutely moronic question that I ignored.

Anyway, I've seen posts about misinformation and relying on social media too much. I agree, though it's not just the student protesters who do it, and it can be easily found here at DU. The OP was a Xhitter post from some random with no link to a source and nothing to back up the claim. It turns out that it was a misrepresention of a UN report. Here's a link* to it if you're interested.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218941582#post33

It's always important to check sources before uncritically accepting something as fact

*on edit - read the post under the linked one as well.

[Cha]

7. We Knew It.. If Hamas is reporting Hamas is

Lying.

lesson.. Never trust a Genocidal Gang Raping Multilating Terrorist Org_Propaganda Machine.

Like who the fuck would?

Mahalo!

[Oopsie Daisy]

69. Gullible and naive folks... That's who.

Or folks with a questionable agenda.

[mcar]

87. I'll take option B

[Chainfire]

8. Are we supposed to rejoice that it is "only" 20,000?

[msongs]

23. yeah the fact that is less makes the actual butchery ok nt

[Bucky]

49. Here's the actual UN report

The UN is not backing down from the 34,000 Gazan deaths estimate. This is the one-page UN report.
https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

It's just that full identification hasn't been confirmed on about 10,000 of the dead. The source calling the lack of confirmation as meaning "not a dead person" is minimizing war deaths. But it's only Palestinians, so no one really cares.

[Chainfire]

53. How many of the people, buried under tons of concrete have been counted?

The precise number is not important, the knowledge that tens of thousands of innocent people have died is important.

The number, even if the claims were halved, is not a mitigating factor.

[enid602]

76. how many

And how many starve or die of thirst/dirty water if Israel can continue the bombardment/blockade for just a couple more weeks?

[AloeVera]

88. A lie will travel the world...

The UN is not "cutting in half" the number of women and children killed. It is a Jerusalem Post reporter claiming that, based on his faulty analysis of the two UN charts. Comparing apples and oranges. But the lie serves a purpose and many are grasping at this straw. It will now get repeated to deny and whitewash the unlawful killing of civilians.

[lapucelle]

117. It's not a "UN estimate" of the number of deaths; it's the number of deaths that have been reported

to the UN.

The UN has a disclaimer on its website.

Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213

[JustAnotherGen]

147. If you search that link

To the date April 29th -

You will see a major shift in the demographics of the dead - particularly the children. 10K are missing or under rubble.

I wasn't understanding it yesterday - until I searched back a week and a half.

Note - I'm not concerned about women - because I was taught to hit first and ask questions later . . . when attacked by racists.

[Tarheel_Dem]

13. As I stated in another thread. The Hamas PR machine has been very successful. They've managed to make fools...

of formerly well respected news outlets, and the media won't ever acknowledge that they've been had.

[Beastly Boy]

15. The lie had already taken hold, no need to pretend anymore

In a few years, UN may even tell us how many of them were not civilians.

[prodigitalson]

18. israel has only killed half as many children as previously thought

this is your point

[claudette]

28. Oh, how very

sweet of them. The rest will die of starvation or infected wounds.

[Cha]

37. The Gang Rapists Hamas Ghouls

Started this Shit by Slaughtering Israelis.. And now they’re caught Lying Again

[Skittles]

39. they killed, so we kill

UGH

[Cha]

44. Fuck GD Gang Rapists Hamas!

[Skittles]

79. killing kids will do that!

DONE here

[Cha]

83. Fucking Hamas Ghouls Gang Rapist Assholes.

[Happy Hoosier]

169. The Jews should just take it

[Skittles]

38. it's fucking disgusting

WTF

[Bucky]

47. Actually the OP is misrepresenting the facts of the UN report

This is the one-page UN report.
https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

There is zero doubt cast on the 34,000 fatalities figure. It's just that full identification hasn't been confirmed on about 10,000 of the dead. The source calling the lack of confirmation as meaning not a dead person is being ghoulish. They're minimizing war deaths.

[JustAnotherGen]

176. They have removed the April 29th Flash Update entirely

These were the breakdown on April 29.

[mcar]

89. Did you believe Hamas' propaganda?

[brooklynite]

20. Can't they be more...."aspirational"?

[betsuni]

21. K&R

[druidity33]

24. Wait, but...

they didn't change the number of dead. They changed the number that were "confirmed" by gender. That left about 10,000 unidentified dead. Nobody knows the gender breakdown there except the people on the ground dealing with the dead. That would be the Health Ministry of Gaza. Yes Hamas runs the government so the Health Ministry is under their auspices... but the casualty counts through them over the years have been widely accepted as accurate. The charts posted downthread are actually instructive. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here. It just looks to me like the numbers haven't changed. Just the way in which they are now recording who was killed. Maybe a change in policy where without a name the corpse becomes ungendered?



Edited to add...
I should note as well that this is a fatality count. A casualty count often includes wounded. The number of Palestinian wounded listed on the UN site is nearly 80,000. There is no record on the UN site what percentage of those were women and children.

[Ponietz]

111. About a dozen people in the thread have pointed out this most important point

Last edited Sun May 12, 2024, 08:03 AM - Edit history (1)

but propaganda and an axe to grind destroys reason. So sad to see it here.

[Eko]

25. Where did the UN say that?

And not some dude on twitter.

[Bucky]

34. Here ya go...

down below

[Eko]

118. Thanks, your link lead to tons of replies of which I dont want to search through to find your anwser.

[Chainfire]

26. Did they mention how many kids were homeless and hungry?

[claudette]

27. It wasn't only

Hamas that was reporting massive deaths, as I recall.

[mcar]

90. As I recall, MSM was reporting whatever

the Palestinian Health Ministry, aka Hamas, was claiming.

[claudette]

103. I thought

I read somewhere that rescue organizations were reporting the number of deaths - and injured. Doesn't matter. One death on EACH side is one too many.

[lapucelle]

159. According to the UN disclaimer, the number of reported fatalities comes from the Ministry of Health

or the Government Media Office in Gaza.

Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification.

Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.

https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

[Richard D]

30. We've been saying that the numbers are inflated since the beginning . . .

. . . but no one believed us because, Jews.

And of the number reported, half at least are Hamas.

But trust the Gaza Health Ministry, AKA Hamas, rapists, murderers, torturers. kidnappers because so many are looking for justification for their antisemitism.

Deplorable.

[surfered]

31. The revised total deaths are now 4,959 women and 7,797 children.

[Bucky]

33. All I'm seeing is unsourced tweets and "the UN *reportedly* cut in half" citations.

When I google to verify this "new analysis" I don't see much corroboration.

I news-googled for "UN cuts estimate of palestinian deaths in gaza" and "UN estimate of civilian deaths in gaza" and found nothing. Asking for a UN-referencing link wasn't productive.

I finally googled "estimate of deaths in gaza" and found only two links to what should be blockbusting news, if accurate. Those links were to (1) the Jerusalem Post (which gets a "mostly factual" rating and Right-Center bias assessment on mediabiasfactcheck .com) and (2)the AIPAC funded Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

If this was confirmed, I'd be impressed. Gosh, only 8000 children have been killed. Only 7000 women and elderly have been killed by the carpet bombing of Gaza. Let's celebrate.

But given the lack of objective sources reporting this, this isn't a development we can take at face value YET. It's just chatter. "When we bombed all those civilian buildings, it wasn't half as deadly to innocent civilians as they've been saying."

[LeftInTX]

35. UN changed their reporting from bodies to positive ID. Links below are to the UN.

The % of men increased from 30 to 40% after identification.
Children went from 42% to 32%
Women went from 27% to 20%
10,000 are unidentified.


Once you ID someone, it's easy to determine their age.
Men may also be easier to ID.
I have no answer for the getting the wrong sex.

May 8th based on positive ID
May 6th based on reported fatalities

Israel states that it has killed at least 16,000 Hamas gunmen


https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215


https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213

[Bucky]

42. from the top of that same page

* 1.1 million people projected to face catastrophic levels of food insecurity (IPC Phase 5)
* {Electricity:} 0 hours - Full electricity blackout
* 1.7 million Internally displaced persons (75% of Gaza)
* 34,844 Palestinian fatalities.

link: https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

What this thread seems to be about is that amid the rubble and running and hiding, only 24,000 of the 34,000 bodies have been fully identified--not that there's an objective UN source doubting that fully tally. Sorry, but this interpretation of the UN's report is disingenuous and dishonest. It sounds like just some Netanyahu apologists trying to make hay out of the fact that bodies in an active urban warzone are hard to fully identify.

[lapucelle]

156. From the bottom of the page.

Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification.

Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.

In addition, the 34,000 figure represents the number of fatalities reported to Hamas by the Ministry of Health and the Government Media Office, not to the number of identified versus unidentified bodies.

The 10,000 person discrepancy between the number of fatalities reported by Hamas and the number of fatalities identified by gender and age has to do with known identity data about the 10,000 additional reported fatalities.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Hamas said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data but did not define what it meant by “incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records.

Prior to its admissions of incomplete data, the health ministry asserted that the information in more than 15,000 fatality records had stemmed from “reliable media sources.” However, the ministry never identified the sources in question and Gaza has no independent media.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/

[NavyDem]

43. It seems to go in line with this article

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/

Snip:

The Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data but did not define what it meant by “incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records.

Prior to its admissions of incomplete data, the health ministry asserted that the information in more than 15,000 fatality records had stemmed from “reliable media sources.” However, the ministry never identified the sources in question and Gaza has no independent media.

[Oopsie Daisy]

48. Interesting. I'll bet it goes lower.

Interesting also to realize how many folks repeat Hamas propaganda.

[AverageOldGuy]

52. Well, that's a relief.

So only 15,000 women and children have been killed. Glad to know that, I'll sleep better tonight.

And with this news, Biden should agree to send Israel TWICE as many bullets, rockets, bombs, missiles . . . then maybe Israel can get the civilian casualties up to where they belong. After all, these women and children are only Palestinian Arabs, who gives a shit about their lives?

[claudette]

54. The number of

Last edited Sat May 11, 2024, 08:38 PM - Edit history (1)

INNOCENT Palestinians killed or maimed has exceded by thousands the number of Israelis killed on 10/7. When will the number of Palestinian deaths be enough to avenge that?

[Torchlight]

66. Is justifying an avenging death a solid path to peace?

INNOCENT people killed and maimed regardless of imaginary red and blue lines on your map.

Let's at least attempt to get some solid, non-HAMAS numbers before we begin speaking of death by avenging and buying into any stat or graph Haniyeh, Marzuk and Mashal are selling to us to to maintain their chamapgne wishes and cavier dreams in Qatar.

[claudette]

71. Not sure what

you mean exactly, but I don't see how getting 'some solid non-Hamas numbers" changes the FACT that it seems, to Israel, NO number of innocents killed in Gaza will avenge 10/7.

[Torchlight]

74. Often a thousand miles of difference between what seems and what is.

Another reason national journals should verify information prior to print. Death by avenging simply continues the very cycle so many assert they want to see ended.

[NickB79]

70. You think wars are fought to a certain number and then called off?

Wars are fought to defeat the enemy. That's it. Hamas could end this today by surrendering.

The US killed 2-3 MILLION Japanese, after 2000 Americans were killed at Pearl Harbor. We would have killed another million if they hadn't surrendered after Nagasaki. That's how wars work.

[claudette]

73. No, I don't think that

Innocent Palestinians are NOT the enemy of Israel. Israel could end this today by stopping the bombing and seek out intelligence to find Hamas leaders to defeat them.

I'm sorry but I don't think past killing of innocents ever justifies killing innocents in the present.

[NickB79]

108. Hamas is a Hydra

Cutting off the head, while leaving behind thousands of rockets, mortars, and thousands of fighters who know how to to use them, means Israel will be attacked again and again.

And absent Israel doing the fighting, those innocent Palestinians would be the ones required to wage a civil war to take back control of Gaza from Hamas. Which would create thousands of civilian casualties as well, only Palestinian on Palestinian.

[JustAnotherGen]

157. There are people around the world

Who will STILL find a way to blame it on Israel.

[Richard D]

55. The best and most foolproof way to avoid civilian casualties . . .

. . . is to not start a war. Every death is on Hamas.

[mcar]

91. Yes.

[cornball 24]

56. "REPORTEDLY"!! DEAD IS DEAD!!

[LetMyPeopleVote]

59. UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed

I have never trusted Hamas' numbers.

Link to tweet

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772
The UN also highlighted that the plurality of identified fatalities were men (40%), while children were (32%) and women (20%).

The United Nations seemingly halved the estimated number of women and children killed in Gaza, according to UN data published on May 6 and 8.

The UN published the number of fatalities reported by the Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and Israeli authorities.

The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures.".....

This comes after months of accusations for leading statisticians that the numbers produced by the Gazan authorities cannot possibly be accurate.

Washington Institute for Near East Policy released a report in January that showed major discrepancies in the fatality reports. They concluded such discrepancies were most likely caused by manipulation.

Professor Abraham Wyner also told Tablet Magazine that the rate of deaths was very unnatural and climbed far too regularly.

He claimed that in war, deaths should be irregular as the intensity of war is irregular, but that the death numbers climbed by 270 plus/minus 15%, which he says is statistically impossible.

[iemanja]

60. How many deaths of women and children are acceptable?

[mcar]

92. How many tortures, gang rapes, burning alive murders

are acceptable?

Or should Israel have just said, 'no harm, no foul' and let Hamas get away with their atrocities.

[iemanja]

127. None

Why should the answer be any different when talking about Palestinian lives?

[mcar]

134. What should Israel have done, then,

in response to 10/7?

[iemanja]

160. Gone after Hamas fighters without annihilating all of Gaza

without slaughtering Palestinian civilians and without seizing the opportunity to displace and kill Palestinians in the West Bank. That Hamas committed atrocious acts on Oct 7 and since does not excuse Netanyahu for his barbaric execution of the war. Nor does it excuse the callousness expressed toward human life that is far too common. It's like people can't hold in their hearts compassion for both Israeli and Palestinian deaths. I can't for the life of me understand why. All human life has value. Human decency demands as much.

[Warpy]

61. I stopped believing a word either side said on October 8

I will wait for the UN's final report a year or two after this two sided atrocity has ended.

And if the two sides don't deal with each other as people who live in the same part of the world, it will all happen again in another 10 years or so.

[republianmushroom]

64. UN credibility down the tube.

Feel a little embarrassed UN ?

[mymomwasright]

65. Also, keep in mind that Hamas fighters common age is 16 to 35 which may count in the children numbers.

The only ones reporting Hamas deaths are the IDF, not Hamas and their Gaza Health Ministry.

[AloeVera]

67. Questionable analysis by a JP reporter.

The source seems to be the Jerusalem Post, referencing U.N. reports I've not been able to find online.

The UN charts in the JP article seem to indicate that the UN methodology changed and now it is separating the total number reportedly killed vs those identified.

The number of reported dead remain about the same (close to 35,000) and of those 25,000 have been identified. It then breaks out the 25,000. Women/children/elderly comprise 60% of those killed that have been identified, or 15,000.

Assuming the same break-out for the unidentified, about 21,000 of the 35,000 are women/children/elderly. Not far off from the 24,000 reported per the original methodology (some variation due to new category of "elderly".

By ignoring the number of dead who are unidentified, and then comparing the original numbers with the reduced base used in the revised methodology, the JP reporter is able to claim that the "UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed". That is apples and oranges invalid analysis.

I hope we can all agree though, that 60% "non-combatant" fatalities is not good.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

[AloeVera]

75. But again, the damage is done.

And this falsehood will be repeated ad nauseum and used to whitewash and deny the mass slaughter and justify further Israeli action resulting in more disproportionate civilian deaths.

[ilovegamers43]

129. Can you plz tell me

How do we tell a Palestinian from hamas? How do we know when all hamas is killed and dead?

[AloeVera]

132. When all Palestinians are dead?

Yes. How do we?

The only way to know for sure "all Hamas are dead" is when all Palestinians are dead.

In particular, those over the age of four, as the rest have all been radicalized according to some Israeli ministers.

[ilovegamers43]

136. So does this mean all numbers

Are just viewed by the side you are on or that should be more careful that everyone wants numbers to mean something else other the what the end goal out come is if we cant tell who hamas is and who innocent Palestinians are? In some eyes there are no innocent Palestinians?

[AloeVera]

137. The IDF determines who is Hamas in an unorthodox way.

We should be very careful indeed. If there are no innocent Palestinians, then everyone who finds themselves in a "kill-zone" demarcated by the IDF and known only by them, is going to be labelled a "terrorist" after they are dead. Which is exactly how that 16,000 "Hamas killed" claim is arrived at.

[ilovegamers43]

138. These numbers sound to hard to understand then

I can not celebrate the reduction if the means could be altared just based off one person point of view from another. Reminds me of that old saying the winner writes the history even if its wrong.

[AloeVera]

141. That is very true.

[LeftInTX]

78. UN Reports are in this thread

Link to the UN in this post:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18941675

[AloeVera]

82. Thanks.

I looked at OCHA, missed it.

[NickB79]

95. 60% non-combatant casualties is pretty low for modern conflicts

From what I've read, it's normally 2 civilians for every 1 combatant killed. Here, It's 1.5 for every 1.

Obviously, any loss of civilian life is bad, but that number does go a long way to dispell the idea Israel is bombing civilians indiscriminately.

[druidity33]

130. It's more like 1.67...

if you are saying 60% and really... that is NOT great for a "modern" war. Nor is it that far from the "normally 2 for 1" casualty rate.

And what about the 80,000 injured or disabled? A lot of them will die too, especially since the hospitals are being bombed and rendered useless. And who will report it? Journalists and aid workers are being targeted.

[JustAnotherGen]

148. You can search backwards at this link

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217

I did a search from April 29th and yesterday here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18940687

UN Flash Update April 29, 2024
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/hostilities-in-the-gaza-strip-and-israel-ocha-flash-update-159/

Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza, 132 Palestinians were killed and 275 injured, including 34 killed and 68 injured in the last 24 hours. Between 7 October 2023 and 12:30 on 29 April 2024, at least 34,488 Palestinians were killed in Gaza and 77,643 Palestinians were injured, according to MoH in Gaza

You can search every day by typing in "Ochoa flash update DATE" in a search engine. I DO. NOT. TRUST. TWITTER. I

[AloeVera]

149. Thank you!

[Think. Again.]

105. This OP is the kind of internet misinformation Hillary Clinton recently warned about...

The number of dead has has not been cut in half, the number of dead identified by gender and age has been.

[Ponietz]

112. Best and most concise response in this entire depressing thread

Many read and reacted without thinking clearly and, sadly, lost some credibility with me. Others rec the most inane posts.

[RockRaven]

106. Point to a worthwhile argument which relies upon an exact number

and then maybe the exact number will be worth arguing over.

[ecstatic]

184. This! nt

[ilovegamers43]

115. Important question that don't know the answer to about HAMAS

Can someone please tell me how we know HAMAS is all gone and GAZA is cleansed of HAMAS fighters?

[sheshe2]

121. Where in the OP was that stated?

Can someone please tell me how we know HAMAS is all gone and GAZA is cleansed of HAMAS fighters?

[ilovegamers43]

122. Just curious

I was just curious how do we tell when hamas is gone from Gaza? If everything is based off numbers of killed I just wanted to know when we know who the last hamas fighter is?

[sheshe2]

123. Okay.

Frankly. I don't think Hamas is going away anytime soon. They like to hide in their tunnels like rats and behind the Palestinian citizens like cowards.

[ilovegamers43]

124. Its just when looking at numbers

I get confused in all of it because I do not know how to tell hamas from a Palestinian is their something on the dead that tells us which is which?

[sheshe2]

126. No.

The numbers of dead have been coming from Hamas, no breakdown given. To many assume that the dead are all innocents. The UN has recently tried to clarify the numbers.

[Eko]

119. Uh, that does not say what you think it does. Those people are dead. The number of dead people has not changed.

Last edited Sun May 12, 2024, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)

The people identified as woman man or child has changed. Those calling victory on this should be ashamed. Dancing on the graves of innocent people because of a stupid twitter post. You know what? Maybe Hamas is lying, even though they have a track record of giving out accurate casualty numbers. They are assholes and I wouldnt put it past them to lie. But to believe that bullshit without evidence is to dance on the graves of dead people. Some not innocent, and way more as reported as innocent. Ill take a hit for this. Alert all you want. I am disgusted with people on here. That is some serious fucked up shit. Hamas should die. But all the innocent civilians did die. And to disregard that for your own personal vendetta without any kind of proof is fucked. Some asshole on twitter validated what you wanted to believe without proof and you went with that. Like I said I'll take the hit, alert, that is what republicans do. Believe things without proof. And then cry foul when it is pointed out. Got proof? Give it to me. Dont? Alert or reconsider what you are doing.
For fucks sake.
Eko.

[Ping Tung]

125. Does that make the deaths of the innocents by the killers a positive act?

Or is it just stacking up the bodies acts of heroism to be bragged about?

[DFW]

128. The UN had better watch their step

They risk getting alerted on DU with un-PC reports like that.

[JustAnotherGen]

158. n/s

[JustAnotherGen]

143. I posted the UN page yesterday

Yesterday was updated through the 9th - today through the 10th

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217

So people can see without having to go to Coke Head Musk's sand box.

[mcar]

144. Thanks

[iemanja]

171. That lists 34,000 civilian deaths

which corresponds to the Heatlh Ministry's numbers. In fact, they say they use the Health Ministry's numbers. It also totals another 78,500 injuries, and over a million displacements on the Palestinian side.

It doesn't disaggregate numbers of children, but if the numbers of children were revised, one would expect the total number of fatalities to decrease as well. So your link doesn't make any kind of corrective reflected in the Tweet in the OP.

[iemanja]

173. I failed to read the small print.

The UN page does list the number of children dead at 7,797. It continues to use the Health Ministry's numbers. This is the page you linked to.

[JustAnotherGen]

175. Ah - you got it!

Yes - What they've done is shifted within the 34K. Also note - there are 10K missing. IE no verification that they are dead. We may not have those numbers for awhile. If there are dead in piles of rubble they haven't been able to get to.

[EX500rider]

155. I'd like to know the age range of the "children"

From what I have read it is up to 18yo, which would include many 16, 17 & 18yo hamas members killed while launching rockets & firing RPG's & AK-47's, hardly the things actual children do.

But a propaganda win for hamas to include them in the children category for sure.

[iemanja]

164. All 18 yr olds are not Hamas fighters

Just as all grown men are not terrorists.

[EX500rider]

165. And conversely no 18 year olds are children

[iemanja]

166. Then they wouldn't be counted as children

Would they?

[EX500rider]

167. They shouldn't be counted as children

But my understanding is Hamas does indeed count them as children to inflate their sympathy propaganda.

If you can find out otherwise please post a link.

[iemanja]

170. This thread is about the UN's numbers

which corrects the Health Ministry's numbers, as the OP makes clear. Of course, this is based entirely on a Tweet, but since it criticizes Hamas attribution isn't necessary for many.

ETA: The UN website as of today still lists the Health Ministry's numbers and has not cut the estimates at all: https://www.ochaopt.org/ https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
but then, I don't see a distinction for children listed, let alone a breakdown by age.

[iemanja]

174. The small print does show the count of children dead

The UN page does list the number of children dead at 7,797 on the UN page, based, it says, on the Health Ministry's numbers. It does not, as the OP says, seem to have revised its estimates. I don't see an age range for children, but 18 yr olds are typically not counted among them. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217

The page also says at least 33 Israeli children have been killed. Do you want to dispute their ages as well?

[iemanja]

172. As of today, the UN has not cut its estimates of total fatalities

of Palestinians on its website, but rather is still using the Health Ministry's estimates:
https://www.ochaopt.org/ https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
It also lists figures of Israelis. It does not, however, disaggregate any numbers for children. If the numbers of children were to go down, wouldn't the total estimate also decrease? Perhaps the Tweet isn't accurate?

[ExciteBike66]

177. Oh yeah, 7000 dead kids is soooooo awesome...

But hey, they're only brown kids, right?

[betsuni]

181. Who said that, who said it was about "brown kids"?

[BannonsLiver]

178. A LOT of DUers fell for it hook line and sinker.

[Dorian Gray]

180. Hamas

Should not be accepted as a source. Period.

Using Hamas as a reliable source harms the Palestinian Gazans so much.

[JustAnotherGen]

183. But that's who has

Been the resource for the UN since October 8th.

[ecstatic]

185. I can't believe that some people are taking a victory lap over this.

First of all, it's not even true. As others have stated, the UN has not halved the death count. 10,000 of the estimated 35,000 are presumed dead but not yet identified and placed into categories (missing under rubble, etc).

Second of all, for some people to go from justifying and excusing (or flat out denying) the estimated deaths one day, and then the next day, taking a victory lap over (false/misleading) information that suggests that "only" 13,000 women and children have died? It's time for those individuals to take a step back because right now, it sounds like they would twist themselves into a pretzel to support and excuse away any death toll, regardless of the context. That's not ok.

Whatever the actual number is, the point is that it did not have to be this way. IDF has the tools to execute military campaigns in a way that preserves human life and minimizes disruptions, but under bibi's leadership, they're not interested in that approach. They have been sloppy, careless, and reckless--treating humans like insects to be squashed and killed indiscriminately. That is wrong. And now that bibi's been called out by the United States, his response is to say fuck you, we will do what we want.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

186. Fox News is reporting these facts

Link to tweet

[Always Blue]

187. The Report didn't change the the number dead

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html