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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDemonstrations In New York Make Several Things Clear
The demonstrators support Hamas. Their goal is not the safety and well-being of Gaza's people, their goal is victory for Hamas in its crusade to kill and drive away the Jews of Israel.
Hamas made clear on October 7 last how it means to gain its goal. The demonstrators are on board with this, and applaud the means Hamas employs to attain its goal.
Stating the demonstrators have a right to free speech is saying the people demonstrating have a right to openly advocate torture, rape, and murder of Jews. Once one has said this, pressing on to say 'I don't support the torture, rape, and murder of Jews, but they've got the right to' has the ring of a cracked bell.
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marble falls
(65,486 posts)
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Has the ring of some Joe Rogan fan proclaiming his being a jerk is the highest expression of liberty, not to be trampled by the woke mob....
William769
(58,806 posts)They do stand for genocide.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)
William769
(58,806 posts) 
EX500rider
(11,827 posts)A warrant for Netanyahu’s arrest was requested. But no decision was made about whether to issue it
Torchlight
(4,636 posts)Good luck!
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Bev54
(12,443 posts)You will find the situation is being used by those who would like to destroy democracy.
Cha
(310,875 posts)about "Democracy". 
LeftInTX
(32,761 posts)
Abolishinist
(2,526 posts)
?
betsuni
(27,916 posts)
Irish_Dem
(69,772 posts)Putin funded HAMAS threw out the bait and Americans took it hook, line and sinker.
lark
(25,034 posts)Israel has been too friendly with Russia in the past. They both support far right government and are ok with mass killing of civilians.
Mosby
(18,504 posts)Not a single bit of your post is accurate or good anaysis.
And please don't post the Tal Shneider article. I've read it.
EX500rider
(11,827 posts)Do you mean Israel allowed Qatar to send $ to Gaza?
That's hardly "Netanyahoo paid HAMAS"
If he hadn't people would be screaming "Israel starves Gaza!"
Netanyahu on Tuesday, however, dismissed those charges, claiming he only allowed Qatari money to flow into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe, not to strengthen the arm of the administration there.
“We wanted to avoid a civilian humanitarian collapse — disease, rampant hunger and other things that would have created an impossible humanitarian situation,” he said. “That’s why successive Israeli governments allowed this money to go in, not in order to strengthen Hamas. We didn’t want to strengthen Hamas at all. We wanted to weaken it and degrade its capabilities as far as we could.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
atreides1
(16,648 posts)So, either Netanyahu and successive Israeli governments were very naive or very stupid? Which one?
EX500rider
(11,827 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)some folks are retroactively pissed they can't holler and whine that Israel wickedly stole the money from the children of Gaza to add to their pile on so all they can do now is holler and whine they didn't.
Heads they win, tails Israel loses.
yardwork
(66,623 posts)
Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)"There are none so blind as those who will not to see."
Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)...all the protesters are only there to support hamas. Why do I find that impossible to believe?
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)And while I will appreciate any replies you should make here as the day progresses, I haven't the faintest interest what you think.
"Some people's purpose in life is to serve as a warning for others."
Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)...that all Mexicans are rapists?
Hekate
(97,709 posts)betsuni
(27,916 posts)Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)"And while I will appreciate any replies you should make here as the day progresses, I haven't the faintest interest what you think."
Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)"And while I will appreciate any replies you should make here as the day progresses, I haven't the faintest interest what you think."
edisdead
(3,359 posts)And yes you are right on.
edisdead
(3,359 posts)Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)"And while I will appreciate any replies you should make here as the day progresses, I haven't the faintest interest what you think."
Cha
(310,875 posts)
womanofthehills
(9,760 posts)Times of Israel. “For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces”
“The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)He thought his interests better served by there being a rival to Fatah. Turns out to have been a bad move.
Has nothing at all to do with the fact that in New York recently, people turned out in open support of Hamas. Open, unequivocal, 'Long live October 7!' support of Hamas.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)There was no correct answer.
PatSeg
(50,217 posts)
Pmc1962
(48 posts)Reply with data, not condescension.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)"For the Snark was a boojum, you see."
obamanut2012
(28,474 posts)Come on.
NutmegYankee
(16,410 posts)This just doesn't rank as important. Consider how you would react to someone proposing the wholesale mass murder of yourself and everyone you love. I'm impressed it's only snark.
Croney
(4,957 posts)Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)...that I'm a hamas supporter???
NutmegYankee
(16,410 posts)Chants of 'Long Live October 7' speak for themselves. As someone with Jewish family, I totally get his position, and I understand his push back in responses. The antisemitism out there in this country is Out Of Control. It eats at your soul.
Think. Again.
(22,330 posts)My apologies.
NutmegYankee
(16,410 posts)I should have stated it as "he's under a lot of stress, cut him some slack." I admit, I'm not sure I could just be snarky - I have a very visceral emotional reaction, and I've had to just avoid posting for the most part to avoid a hide.
I'm horrified at what I'm seeing.
womanofthehills
(9,760 posts)Jewish Groups usually help plan lots of protests.
So many kids now are mixed race - race is no big deal to the young.
I have 4 Jewish girlfriends out here in NM - all married to Hispanic men. So - their part Jewish kids have Hispanic last names. My own grandkids are half Hispanic and my great grandson is Anglo, Hispanic and Arab. If I were to ask my great grandson if he had Jewish friends - he would not even know what that means or what I was talking about. The older people are way more into race than the young.
What’s interesting —
Among independent Jewish journalists & podcasters many are ProPalestine.
NutmegYankee
(16,410 posts)But I’m going to go out on a limb and state that I find it not credible that Jewish students would chant “long live October 7.” That has a specific evil meaning, and was the point of the OP.
maxsolomon
(36,554 posts)The "kids" waving the Hezbollah flag and unfurling the "Long Live 10/7" banner look Arab, down to women in Hijab.
No doubt some of the protesters are JVP or such, but what's a "large portion" to you?
edisdead
(3,359 posts)Not just shots of some jewish people. I would like to see evidence of large portions. Large in respect to a group setting would to me be like a third or at least a fourth of the group. I do not think (note I do not know) that what you are saying is true. I do believe you likely think that (note that doesn’t make it true)
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)They should stick to overwrought emotional responses, spinning yarns, distortion, and phony revolutionary cosplay...you know what they are good at.
betsuni
(27,916 posts)
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)Link to tweet
===========================
Here are some of the chants included in their toolkit:
(There is no God but Allah SWT and the martyrs are beloved by Allah SWT)
Zionism has got to go!
Hey hey, ho ho!
Israel has got to go!
you’re committing genocide
Intifada revolution!
We want ‘48!
Globalize the intifada!
(Say it loud say it clear, we don’t want zionists here)
(The door of Al-Aqsa is made of iron, only a martyr can open it)
https://wolpalestine.com/resources/rally-toolkit/
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)* pretty sure many originally in those subway cars could have felt quite uncomfortable suddenly bring subjected of the intensity of those protesters esp if they disagreed with either anti-semitism, or ani-Zionism
I'm an NYC'r. I know that area.
LeftInTX
(32,761 posts)They aren't the majority at tall.
Just because some Jews are protesting, isn't the same as "Jews are Pro-Palestine". Stating that Jews are protesting and that Jews support the protesters and that Jews are anti-Israel is a blanket statement that it is inaccurate. So what?
Surveys shows that most do not support the protesters.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)You know once their useful idiot/hood ornament function is no longer required.
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)And how long has that been going on? 🤔🙄
A looooooong time!😤
RAB910
(4,028 posts)It is highly inappropriate. If this is the only way one can defend the mass killings in Gaza, than Israel's actions are indefensible.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Chants of 'Long Live October 7!' by crowds outside a memorial to those tortured, raped, and killed that day speak for themselves.
RAB910
(4,028 posts)facts matter
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)Long live October 7
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219024876
The assault on the Nova film festival is "Zionist propaganda"
Link to tweet
/video/1
It seems the OP is correct- these protesters support Hamas
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,743 posts)Reminds me of Monty Python's "We are all individuals!" from Life of Brian.
Of course, when a whole crowd is repeating back the same antisemitic Pro-Hamas bullshit, it's difficult to say that it's a small portion of outside agitators supporting Hamas.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)or the recitation of an oath:
I {state your name} do solemnly pledge my allegiance...
AZSkiffyGeek
(12,743 posts)But maybe it's been around longer?
sheshe2
(92,082 posts)lapucelle
(20,155 posts)It was called a "mic check". The purpose was to amplify a message so that everyone in the crowd heard it. It sounded weird then, and it sounds weird now.
Link to tweet
Cha
(310,875 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)mcar
(44,608 posts)over the last several days about the protests in NYC. These protestors were not pro-Palestinian, they were pro-Hamas. Some called Oct. 7 propaganda, others cheered it.
tritsofme
(19,175 posts)I hope they all show us who they are.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I always enjoyed translating the Maoist directive 'Let a thousand flowers bloom, let one hundred schools of thought contend' to its functional meaning: Are there any among you truly too stupid to live? Stand forth and be recognized...
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Is the OP arresting this backwash?
Does the OP have some statutory authority to prosecute or in any way punish Nazi scum?
Is the OP the government?
In what way has the right to speech in any way been abridged and by what power?
Hollering about the First Amendment either is a strawman of epic proportion or those doing the braying have little to no concept of what the right guarantees.
There is no freedom from disagreement or pushback on bullshit, even stridently so.
There is no guarantee of acceptance of a viewpoint nor any freedom from judgment of the audience.
Dr. Strange
(26,032 posts)Yes, letting them speak freely shows us who they are. Hopefully people are listening.
harumph
(2,712 posts)have a right to protest - a right to be swept up and taken advantage of as it were - short of actual destruction of property and violence.
No doubt the impetus for much of it is coming from Russia as you say. It is also clear that
agents provacateurs are involved.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I simply insist on clarity regard the goals they clamor for.
I must point out I said nothing about foreign influence, let alone Russian influence, neither here nor have I anywhere else. The academic left of the West is perfectly capable of generating its own moral cretins, no outside assistance is required.
harumph
(2,712 posts)However, while I agree that the "academic left" has jumped the shark with this, it is clear to me
that there are also outside agitators who are amplifying the message and desirous of drawing away
younger voters from Biden.
LeftInTX
(32,761 posts)
stonecutter357
(12,837 posts)
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)They have a right to support the torture, rape, and murder of Jews, its guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.
They do not, by speaking freely, impose on any audience a duty to agree, or bar any in their audience from expressing disagreement.
RAB910
(4,028 posts)Nor should we , by extension, give Israel a free pass for their mass murder/genocide of the Palestinian people
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)obamanut2012
(28,474 posts)sheshe2
(92,082 posts)They unfurled a flag that says just that.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Even they seemed ashamed of it.
What gets me is the broad-brush of "terrorist supporters" the protesters are painted with. The large majority are there to protest Israel's many war crimes and want the war to stop. Period. But any mention of that, and we are called idiots who've fallen for Russian propaganda or some such nonsense.
It's about the way the war is waged, the plethora of hideous war crimes and the resulting suffering of Palestinians.
We need neither Putin nor the UN to tell us war crimes are being committed. But still, it's good to see our beliefs confirmed by the UN report out today. Israel has committed atrocious war crimes. This war must end.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)No comment on the couple thousand protesters calling the slaughter and rape at the Nova film festival "Zionist propaganda"?
The article you linked notes "Palestinian armed groups are responsible for war crimes, other grave violations of international law". It is easy to miss, being in the title...
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Other than the Oct 7 war crimes that everyone agrees on and that has been talked about for 8 months?
In a report TODAY, an independent UN panel has found Israel to have committed war crimes too. That part is easy to miss if you are not interested in acknowledging them and would rather sweep them under the rug. I'm sure you don't agree with that, so allow me:
The Commission found that the crimes against humanity of extermination, gender persecution targeting Palestinian men and boys, murder, forcible transfer, and torture and inhuman and cruel treatment were also committed.
The immense numbers of civilian casualties in Gaza and widespread destruction of civilian objects and infrastructure were the inevitable result of a strategy undertaken with intent to cause maximum damage, disregarding the principles of distinction, proportionality and adequate precautions. The intentional use of heavy weapons with large destructive capacity in densely populated areas constitutes an intentional and direct attack on the civilian population.
Much more in the report itself.
In case it needs to be said, THIS is what the protests world-wide are about. There are extremists and provocateurs but to focus on them is, to me, just a desparate attempt to deflect from the message and demonize the whole masses of protesters.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)You are still avoiding the fact that thousands of protesters in NYC called the attack on the festival Zionist propaganda.
Not 1 or 2 "provocateurs". Thousands repeating the words of the speaker, waving the flag of a terrorist organization.
I do not say each and every pro-Palestinian protester is antisemitic. But when masses are cheering rape and murder without a whiff of criticism, it makes one wonder how large this small minority is.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)They claim putting the focus on Oct 7th victims, while Palestinians are currently being killed daily, is a form of propaganda used to justify and enable what they consider to be a genocide.
You see how a message and a viewpoint gets twisted around. That manipulation is itself a form of propaganda imo.
I hope one day to see a memorial in NYC to the thousands of children lost in Gaza. Their lives were important too, they suffered unspeakably too.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)by calling the exhibit (I will grant they said that, but we will return to it momentarily) is Zionist propaganda, they are attempting to divorce the orgy of rape and murder from what is happening to Gaza.
It is akin to had there been a pro-Japan rally during WW2 that called the phrase "Remember Pearl Harbor" American propaganda.
They are trying to pretend there is no cause-effect relationship.
Now I will ask, did you listen to the entire clip of the call/repeat? I did. Though they did not use the word "justified", the message that those at the festival deserved what they got. Much like the cheering of the attack we saw in NYC on October 8, they are blaming the victims for having a festival when Gaza exists. The speaker even said it was like holding a rave next to the gas chambers. That level of hyperbole is beyond absurd and disgusting.
Now should there still be lingering doubt, that it is passion but not antisemitism at the core, the Hezbollah flag removes the last shred of doubt. It couldn't be clearer if the waved the flag of the Third Reich. Hezbollah is an Iranian sponsored Lebanese terrorist cum political party. The connection between Hezbollah and Hamas is they agree "Israel" (as they often write it) is an illegal Zionist entity and neither will rest until it is eliminated. Whether or not the Jews will also be "eliminated" is a bit of an open-ended question...
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Your point about cause and effect just reinforces the view that the exhibit IS in fact intended as providing justification for Gaza. Which no doubt in my mind it is, while honouring the victims at the same time.
Holding the rave in between a military post and Gaza was reckless beyond belief. The military identified it as a security risk but nothing was done. Just as nothing was done about the warnings given of impending attack. The convergence of those two things is very odd. When is that investigation of Oct 7th happening?
And yes, the symbolism of holding a rave next to an Islamist enclave under blockade is chutzpah to say the least. Hyperbole happens at these events, there is a lot of passion and outrage.
The victims are blameless but the leaders and military? It wouldn't have happened without their incompetence and who knows if Hamas didn't see the preparations and acted accordingly? How awful.
Is pointing these things out victim-blaming? Not more so than pointing out Palestinians elected Hamas so... Just for the record, all victims are blameless imo.
The Pearl Harbour analogy? I see it more akin to holding a Pearl Harbour commemoration in the still burning ruins of Hiroshima, while Nagasaki is about to be obliterated. Yes, the Pearl Harbour victims deserve commemoration, but there is a time and place. Not in the middle of human suffering on the other side, one which you caused, regardless of being victims too. It's unseemly at best, manufacturing consent for more crimes at worst.
Hezbollah flag? The extremists hurt the Palestinians more than help. Yet they both believe passionately that Hezbollah and Houthis are their only allies who fight for them. You and I can't put ourselves in the shoes of a besieged and tormented people to assess right or wrong from their perspective. Though respectfully I think I am a bit more practiced at that.
I don't believe anti-semitism is the driving force of the protests. I do fear though that Israel's actions since October 8th have given rise to more anti-semitism worldwide and also radicalized a lot of well-meaning people.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2024, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)
Every one is to blame but the people who had themselves a joyful bout of torture, rape, and murder.
It is not possible to cite the things you have without engaging in mitigation of atrocity, without arguing that the responsibility for it rests in good part on persons other than the people who committed it, and without by that degree excusing those who did in fact commit the atrocity, and so are certainly the sole actors who would be punished for it under law.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious.
But weaponizing Oct 7th to commit horrific war crimes and crimes against humanity in the present moment, is something I strongly disagree with.
I do listen to myself and my heart and mind tell me there is something very wrong here. You can go ahead and chide, try to ridicule or shame me. Matters not to me and won't make me change my mind. Good day.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Your line was that others share the blame with Hamas. This is apologia of the lowest order, and a barefaced attempt to shift blame from the criminal onto the victim of his crime.
'Weaponization' is but a worship word, like 'gaslighting': something chanted in expectation its magic will confound one's opponent. Were one to extract any meaning from your use of 'weaponization' here, it amounts to a charge that Israel was just waiting for an excuse to launch all-out war in Gaza, and glad of one come to hand. It's groundwork for 'Netanyahu let it happen' noises, and stretches on from there clear to false-flag rants about just who really killed whom. And they all hinge on what you claim, that Israel has 'weaponized' Hamas atrocities so it can slaughter hecatombs of innocent Palestinians.
The brutal fact of the matter is not one resident of Gaza would have been killed or maimed, not one bomb dropped there, nor one round fired there in the last eight months or so, had Hamas not indulged its killers in a sadistic spree of torture, rape, murder, and kidnapping, on the 7th of October last.
If more dead Palestinians did not serve the interests of Hamas, if more dead Palestinians are not the chosen weapon of Hamas, they can end the killing in a heartbeat. They can free their captive victims and surrender. Hamas prefers to keep Gaza residents between them and the weapons of the Israeli military. None of the demands over which they will keep the killing going aid the people of Gaza in the slightest. They want a 'ceasefire' that leaves them in power over Gaza's residents, and replenishes depleted ranks with freed prisoners.
betsuni
(27,916 posts)AloeVera
(2,738 posts)When a call to acknowledge clear-eyed, fact-based reasons to question motives and catastrophic consequences aka accountability, is called apologia and blame-shifting. While at the same time shifting the blame for the current orgy of slaughter and destruction on the leaders of those being slaughtered in real-time, rather than those willfully doing the slaughtering. Which, by the way, are made possible by committing an orgy of war crimes and crimes against humanity. But please, do ignore the findings of a Commission of independendent experts.
When repeated calls to end the slaughter are characterized as wanting more dead civilians, while ignoring the fact that it is Israel who ensures there actually are more dead civilians.
The real brutal fact of the matter is, whether "allowed" to happen and then horrified by the enormity and seeking to defend as well as save face, reassert toxic dominance and exact revenge - or not - October 7th was and still is being used to carry-out long-sought goals of eliminating the Palestinian Problem. At this point, it would be very hard work for anyone to deny that brutal conclusion.
Continuing with brutal facts of the matter, none of this would have happened without the ethnic cleansing, denial of right of return, brutal occupation and gross injustices against Palestinians since Israel's founding on their lands. None of it will stop until those things are even acknowledged, let alone addressed. Which by the looks of it - when even industrial-scale slaughter and war crimes are not enough to convince staunch Israel supporters to advocate for stopping it - is not likely to ever happen. Palestinian lives, losses and grievances don't much factor into support for "Israel has a right to exist" and "Israel has a right to defend itself".
It's all bloody-minded nonsense, though there are other ways to describe it too.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)You don't like the facts, so you try and wrap them in something you're more comfortable with.
The only new element in it is an invitation to discuss the long history of the matter, which I decline. I see no reason to suspect you know much about the world in which the matter is rooted, and doubt you could sit still for the education.
I would invite you to consider this. I doubt anyone here questions the fact of systemic racism, that several centuries of not just believing anyone not white is a lesser being, but putting in some hard work to make it so in social rank, has some effect on the present. I doubt any would argue against the proposition that these 'habits' of our society operate to produce disparate outcomes, quite independent of the personal views on race of particular individuals deciding such things as who to lend to, or hire, or give a break to in court.
Hate and loathing for Jews has been at the root of Christendom and the West just a couple of decades shy of two millennia. The claim of exploitative superiority over people of color has been a feature of Christendom and the West for no more than a quarter of that stretch of time. For far longer, in Christendom and the West, killing Jews was viewed as an enjoyable duty, to be turned to for relief in times of stress. There's not much difference between Europe's reaction to the fourteenth century's Great Mortality and what Germans, aided mightily by several central European peoples, did in the wake of calamitous defeat in the twentieth century's Great War, and that difference is merely the general advance of industry and organization.
Old habits die hard....
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)... a discussion between us?
That goes for you too.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I seek to harden opposition to crowds of leftists not only out in support of Hamas, but proclaiming as they do that they are the most authentic expression of being leftist.
I consider these people are, by doing so, increasing the chance Fascism will overtake Democracy through our upcoming national election. I am willing to allow individuals within the crowds may think of their actions as something else: I know the organizers and funders of the crowds do intend to damage the electoral prospects of Democracy's candidate for President.
I've neither intent to, nor interest in, changing your mind in this matter. I simply present a case and supporting arguments and rhetoric for others, yourself included, to peruse as they wish.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)And will lose others too. You are 100% wrong on that, off by many millions of people.
The danger to democracy is what should have been considered before embarking on this path. Why it was not foreseen I will never understand. Now it's an impossible choice, either stay silent in face of wrongdoing or risk different wrongdoing in the future. Many people will go with wrestling down the dragon immediately in front of them. You may think they are short-sighted but if you are looking for blame then blame those who created or fed this dragon, not the ones fighting it.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I was unaware millions had come out in New York and other locations in the United States to demonstrate their humanitarian concern by waving the banners hoisted by fundamentalist fanatics of murderous stripe, and to chant their slogans of aspirational genocide in proof of it. I was aware some thousands enjoyed posturing so as wild rebel freedom fighters while aiding the rise of fascism in the United States by their repellent example of what 'the left' is, which is what I address here.
I'm always amazed by people who have trouble taking meaning from the plain text. Everyone knows what 'from the river to sea' means when chanted by crowds turned out to denounce 'zionists' and brand individual Jews here as targets responsible for actions by Israel's government. There's really no wiggle room left at all, not for the people out on streets and subways, and college campuses. I don't expect stating it flat will lose me much, and it may even me gain some: it has the sovereign advantage of being true.
"Inter arma enim silent leges"
betsuni
(27,916 posts)lapucelle
(20,155 posts)Surely *folks who live in Canada* are as aware as New Yorkers are of the pro-terrorist groups and operatives organizing the marches.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
=================================
Charlotte Kates gave a speech in favour of Hamas at a rally outside the Vancouver Art Gallery on April 26. Video circulated of the event has since led to a hate crime investigation by the Vancouver Police Department and an arrest.
Charlotte Kates [Charlotte Lynne Kates] is affiliated with a designated foreign terrorist organization (FTO). Kates has shown support for terror groups and supported intifada violence. She has also spread hatred of Zionism and Israel.
In October 2022, Kates was banned from entering the European Union, along with her husband Khaled Barakat, who is a leader in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) terror group. The couple were deported back to Canada.
As of January 2023, Kates was listed as an “International Coordinator” co-chair at the anti-Israel NGO, Samidoun: Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network (Samidoun). According to Canadian government records, Kates is listed as the group’s “Director.”
Samidoun’s activism spreads awareness of terrorists, and at least three senior activists are members of the PFLP. In February 2021, Israel’s Ministry of Justice declared Samidoun to be a “terror organization,” accusing the NGO of operating “as an arm” of the PFLP.
https://canarymission.org/individual/Charlotte_Kates
https://www.instagram.com/canarymission/reel/C6ZD1QciWUJ/
Officials concerned about hidden links to terrorist groups point to a little-known international organization called Samidoun, the Arabic word for “steadfast.” On its website, the Canadian-registered nonprofit group describes itself as “an international network of organizers and activists working to build solidarity with Palestinian prisoners in their struggle for freedom.”
But the Israeli government and several think tanks in Europe and Israel say Samidoun’s leadership is composed of current and former members of the PFLP. Germany banned Samidoun a few weeks after the Oct. 7 attacks, arguing that Samidoun members had praised and supported Hamas during street protests.
snip==============================
[...] Samidoun does not hide its activities. In a Feb. 27 YouTube video in which Kates is featured along with Dr. Basem Naim, a senior Hamas official, Kates described the Oct. 7 attacks as a “heroic operation.” In another February webinar on YouTube, she spoke to activists in New York and explained why her organization does not distance itself from Hamas or other groups deemed terrorists by the U.S. and Israel.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-palestinian-protests-us-rcna143666
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)sarisataka
(21,666 posts)The effect is the assault on Gaza. The cause was the Hamas attack on October 7.
Now I am very well aware of the history so I know there are events prior to that day. I hope we can agree that if October 7 had not happened the relationship between Israel and Gaza would not be all kumbaya today but there are thousands of Palestinians who would still be alive.
All indications, including Hamas statements, are that they were unaware of the festival until they encountered it. It was not an objective, merely a target of opportunity. How they treated that target speaks more clearly about how Hamas views Jews than any words I can say.
Perhaps the organizers could have chosen a better place. But what happened is inexcusable. To my mind ANY attempt to imply anything otherwise is victim blaming and on some level condoning Hamas actions.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)She shouldn't have been wearing that skirt. Guy shouldn't thumb through all the hundreds in his wallet right in front of somebody. Guy hasn't got any bread, guy can't get laid, the fuck do you expect him to do? Be a saint?
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)But no cause should produce the effect of what we are seeing in Gaza.
That view doesn't diminish the enormity of what Hamas did, nor the suffering of Oct 7th victims.
But when the effect exceeds the cause by orders of magnitude, focusing only on the cause enables and whitewashes the horror of the effect. It needs to be called out and protested.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)EX500rider
(11,827 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2024, 05:50 PM - Edit history (1)
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)But when the few instances of anti-semitism is used to try to cover up the stench of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Israel, it is going to grow. Some bigoted people cannot separate Zionism from Judaism and will use Israel's crimes as an excuse to hate Jews.
You may be surprised that I find that possibility horrifying.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)Israel's actions simply make it socially acceptable to express their hatred openly by using Palestinians as a veil.
What I find surprising is how few who support Palestinians (you may be surprised I support their desire for their own state) will step up and condemn antisemitic acts. It is like people think if they condemn attacks on US Jews it somehow betrays their support for Palestinians. It makes the non-specific statements of "I'm against antisemitism" ring hollow; especially when the next word after antisemitism is "but".
Example- the antisemitic vandalism of the homes of the board members. All of *one* "pro-Palestinian" supporter entered the several threads to condemn the vandalism. It was such a rare occurrence I had to congratulate the poster on their moral courage.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Do you not think it possible for people to hate Israel's actions without hating Jews in general? It's an honest question. From someone who has always thought they don't have an anti-semitic bone in their body, shunned those who do, and is now shocked at the accusations.
No , I'm not that surprised about your support for TSS, though glad to hear it. I have noticed lately you are thoughtful and moderate in your responses. It's why I engage with you.
As for not stepping up, yes your analysis is partly right and astute. But for me it's mostly that I still believe the root of the protests is anti-Zionism and Israel's actions. I have no problem condemning overt anti-semitism but tend to give the benefit of the doubt when it is a fine line and open to interpretation. That sounds awful and I guess betrays where my loyalties lie. However I think it's possible an Israel supporter might fall into the same confirmation bias.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)Can separate Israeli action from the Jewish people. There are others who I see lapse into antisemitic tropes; they may do so out of ignorance or a semiconscious connecting of Israel as a Jewish state with Jews in general. Lastly there is the virulent antisemitic minority. They are the ones who attack Jews who have no connection to Israel. I have been distressed to find it is a much larger minority than I believed.
I understand your position and believe many are motivated by sympathy towards the Palestinians who are innocent and caught in a crossfire.
Unfortunately peer pressure makes those protesters susceptible to antisemitic influence. If you seek out the subway video, it is an excellent example of this. When the "caller" wanted everyone to say Zionists raise your hands the reply was unsure, tepid. As if they realized they were crossing a line. But he said it again and the reply was enthusiastic. The anonymity of the crowd overcame trepidation that this was no longer just about Palestinians...
ETA> I should add I agree that everyone has a bias and favors one over the other. I will plead guilty; I could say I'm 50/50 but I know that is not truthful.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)I appreciate the response and happen to agree with pretty much all of it. That's something!
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)=============================================================
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NYC June 11, 2024
Link to tweet
The subway ride:
?si=ZQfFp9dNsR4lmWXw
After the subway ride:
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thucythucy
(8,871 posts)I'm trying to unpack that analogy.
Holding a commemoration for the victims of October 7 in New York City is like commemorating Pearl Harbor in Hiroshima just after the atomic bomb was dropped? Seriously?
So in this analogy New York City is Hiroshima is Gaza? And Palestinians are Japanese circa 1945?
So you're saying that holding a commemoration for the victims of October 7 in New York City is somehow an affront to civilians suffering in Gaza? And that the proper response to such a commemoration is to hold a rally in the space immediately outside, waving the flags used by the killers and rapists?
"Yes, the Pearl Harbor victims deserve commemoration, but there is a time and place."
So commemorating the victims of October 7 by New Yorkers, some of whom are related to or know or knew personally those victims, should wait until a better "time and place?" Such as where and when?
I would suggest that it was this pro-Palestinian demonstration that might instead have been held "at a better time and place." Like, for instance, practically anywhere else in New York City out of the sight and earshot of the people commemorating their losses.
Here's an analogy for your consideration: holding this demonstration at this particular place and time was akin to the religious wackos who demonstrate at the funerals of AIDS victims. Not a perfect analogy, I grant you, but I think it's more apropos than yours.
I do somewhat agree when you say, "You and I can't put ourselves in the shoes of a besieged and tormented people to assess right and wrong from their perspective." But wouldn't that also apply to Jews in Israel and elsewhere, who have also been besieged and tormented?
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Those who don't, pick apart analogies.
The people of Gaza are being murdered, starved and terrorized daily for 8 months in an orgy of war crimes, in a manner that raises the plausible risk of genocide. The government of Israel doesn't want the world to focus on that abominable reality occurring in the present moment. It wants us to focus backwards, on the victims of Oct. 7th and Nova.
This exhibit plays into that strategy. Sure, it is presented as a commemoration, and it is for some people, but look closely and you will see the elements of propaganda. It recreates the horrifying scenes at Nova to instill fear, loathing and outrage in patrons. As one survivor who is part of the exhibit explained - rather tellingly- the purpose of the exhibit is to make people realize it could happen to them, to their children. In other words scare the sh**out of them, make them feel they are personally vulnerable. What better way to elicit support for the ongoing slaughter than to invoke the primitive, irrational parts of our brain? Sort of like 9/11 redux. There is also the unsubtle but surely effective repetition of Light vs Darkness, Children of Light vs Children of Darkness, Evil vs Good, the elevation of an electronic music festival to near-sainthood representing love/joy/peace/freedom, the lost shoes evoking the Holocaust etc. It's the weaving of a myth where the forces of good are all good, never did bad and are incapable of doing evil. The context, the full story, the suffering of the other side are simpply ignored.
Yet the context exists, and evil is being done. A lot of it.
Just yesterday I saw a video of a bulldozer clearing the rubble of a building in Gaza. The body of what appeared to be a young boy popped out of the rubble and the bulldozer picked it up, the body straddling the top like a rag doll. It was then dropped into a big dumpster, along with the rubble. Disappeared. No hope of being found, no commemoration.
How can a person even try to process something like that, let alone turn the other way and say that's just war, or human shield, or any other excuse? The answer is people who are able do that, have fallen for that mythology, they can't see beyond the outrage, loathing and the manufactured fear.
So yes, such an exhibit helps to prop up, enable, justify, continue the genocidal war. For example, the 270 victims of the Nuseirat Camp massacre have been nearly as "disappeared" from the discourse as that young boy was from his existence. They don't matter nearly as much, they are on the wrong side of good and evil.
A true commemoration, based on putting equal value on all human life, needs to wait until after the killing has stopped. There should be no distinction made based on nationality, religion or ethnicity. Wouldn't it be something to see, a commemoration based on those ideals?
Stop this abominable war so there will be fewer victims to commemorate. Isn't that what we all want? This exhibit doesn't help us get there.
Beastly Boy
(12,311 posts)It takes some seriously dedicated rhetorical pretzel twisting to turn terrorist sympathizers blocking an entry to (and exit from) a privately sponsored memorial exhibit honoring the victims of one of the bloodiest and most sadistic terrorist attacks ever on a music festival in Israel into a strategic ploy by the government of Israel to divert attention from the war in Gaza.
Flat-out excusing the sympathizers of a terrorist organization that only has the aim of destroying Israel in common with Hamas goes beyond any plausible benefit of doubt or legitimate claims of confirmation bias, unless one claims confirmation bias towards Hezbollah. Hezbollah has nothing, except being Iran's proxy akin to Hamas, to do with the Gaza war, or the Gazan civilian deaths you once again brought up out of context. It takes quite the cojones to turn villains into victims and vice versa with such audacious pretense to righteousness and complete disregard (at best) to the overt displays of antisemitism in the course of the protest.
thucythucy
(8,871 posts)could just as easily be applied to the video you mention in your post.
Sure, the video of that poor boy's body being unearthed by a bulldozer is horrible, but "look closely and you will see the elements of propaganda." Broadcasting that video "recreates the horrifying scene to instill...loathing and outrage.... And what better way to elicit support" for terrorists determined to murder Jews "than to invoke the primitive irrational parts of our brain?" Not that I would argue against broadcasting that video, just as I don't believe bringing up the atrocities of October 7 needs to conform to some sort of statute of limitation, or to wait for some "better time." The reality of those crimes, the total reality of this war needs to be shown, recorded, remembered, just as we need to continue to remember and commemorate the Holocaust and the Holodomor, the Nakba, and the current atrocities of Putin's war in Ukraine.
You ask how can a person "even try to process something like" the scene of that child. I don't know, except to see it as a horror that shouldn't happen to any child, any family, anywhere. Just as gang rapes, sexual mutilation, kidnapping and torture and the keeping hostages should also never happen, not to anyone, anytime, anywhere.
I agree with George Orwell when he says that sloppy writing often indicates sloppy thinking, or words to that effect, which is why I tried to unpack your rather bizarre analogy. It seemed off kilter, to say the least, and so I commented on that aspect of your post.
There is however a way in which your analogy does to some extent work. The Japanese government, made up of a small clique of militarists, could have prevented Hiroshima had they ended their war, a war that was entirely unnecessary and obscenely wasteful of innocent life. The members of that clique could have thus saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Every military expert in Japan knew by the summer of 1942 that the war was lost, and yet they continued for three more years because they put their own "honor" and personal well-being over that of the millions of people who suffered and died during that period. Similarly, the leadership of Hamas could end the war today, and could have ended it months ago, had it been willing to release the hostages and surrender power in Gaza. If this were to happen "this abominable war" would end, and the killing would presumably stop, and yes, that's what most of us want. I say "most of us" because it seems this isn't what the leadership of Hamas wants, according to reports I've read, some of them here on DU.
You seem always to impugn the morality of those with whom you disagree, stating for instance that I "don't want to see." I'm not sure how you can know this, but just to be clear: I despair at the loss of innocent life on both sides. I fervently wish Israel's response was less costly in lives, less destructive, less extreme. Just as I question the need, for instance, for the firebombing of Hamburg in 1943, the firebombing of Dresden in 1944, the firebombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. The problem we see throughout history when we "unslip the dogs of war," is once that happens it becomes well nigh impossible to limit or mitigate the violence. This is especially true when one side at least has the explicit goal of exterminating the other.
I honestly believe therefore that commemorating those innocents who suffer is never inappropriate. And that to stand outside such a commemoration to shout slogans of hate is likewise never appropriate. I have no problem with people demonstrating for whatever cause--that's their right. But I would think those who claim to have a corner on empathy and compassion would think twice before using a memorial exhibit as the arena for venting their rage at the friends and relatives of those who have endured their own horrific trauma, or defending those who would do so.
But maybe that's just me.
Here's hoping the war ends soon, that whatever damage that can be repaired will be repaired, and that the survivors on both sides will have the support they need to heal from their grievous wounds.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)Beastly Boy
(12,311 posts)because they divert the focus from the Oct 7 massacre by focusing on waving a Hezbollah flag on Wall Street and blocking access to the Nova exhibit.
And I would be excused if I were to deny First amendment protections to anyone anywhere simply by claiming that any topic that doesn't address Palestinians being killed is focus-diverting Zionist propaganda.
Speaking of viewpoints being twisted around... worthy of a Borowitz report.
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)scars by those who survived, and the emotional scars of grieving still go on related to Oct 7. It's still pertainent. Nothing wrong with that exhibit.
And Bibi's war is excessive, so deep suffering there as well.
There are rules of war, not always followed.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)lapucelle
(20,155 posts)The report will not be finalized and voted on for adoption until June 19.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)Link to tweet
GENEVA (AP) — Israel, the United States and Britain on Thursday criticized an expert commissioned by the U.N. human rights body to examine the situation in the Middle East, accusing him of antisemitic remarks.
Miloon Kothari was quoted in the media as questioning Israel’s right to be a U.N. member state and alluding to a “Jewish lobby.” The comments stoked longtime accusations by Israel, the U.S. and others that the rights body is biased against Israel.
snip===================
In an interview published Monday by Mondoweiss, an online publication critical of Israel’s policies toward Palestinians, Kothari spoke about the commission’s work and mandate. He cited a lack of cooperation from Israel’s government. Asked about criticism by some governments, including that of Canada, he replied that he was “very disheartened by the social media that is controlled largely by — whether it’s the Jewish lobby or it’s specific NGOs — a lot of money is being thrown into trying to discredit us.”
“I would go as far as to raise the question as why are they even a member of the United Nations, because they don’t respect — the Israeli government does not respect — its own obligations as a U.N. member state,” he added.
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-geneva-race-and-ethnicity-92d888b43d685e65d82952980a032e6f
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)The United States is committed to advancing human rights in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Israelis and Palestinians deserve equal measures of freedom, security, prosperity, and, importantly, dignity. Promoting human rights and fundamental freedoms is important in its own right and as a means of preserving and advancing the prospects of a negotiated two-state solution.
As we have stated repeatedly, we firmly oppose the open-ended and vaguely defined nature of the UN Human Rights Council’s (HRC) Commission of Inquiry (COI) on the situation in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, which represents a one-sided, biased approach that does nothing to advance the prospects for peace. The report of the Commission, released today, does nothing to alleviate our concerns. While the United States believes the HRC plays a crucial role in promoting respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms globally, this COI and report do not advance this goal.
Israel is the only country subject to a standing agenda item at the HRC and has received disproportionate focus at the HRC compared to human rights situations elsewhere in the world. While no country is above scrutiny, the existence of this COI in its current form is a continuation of a longstanding pattern of unfairly singling out Israel. We reengaged with and later re-joined the HRC in part to be in a better position to address its flaws, including this one, and we will continue to seek reforms.
The United States remains deeply committed to helping achieve peace for both Israelis and Palestinians and will support actions in the UN that bring the parties together to advance prospects for peace.
https://www.state.gov/the-un-human-rights-councils-commission-of-inquiry-on-the-situation-in-israel-the-west-bank-and-gaza/
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)missile barrages pre Oct 7.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)A crowd of demonstrators, some waving Palestinian flags, others waving flags of the Hezbollah terror group in Lebanon, and many chanting slogans such as “Long live the intifada” and “Kill another Zionist now”, gathered outside the exhibit and some attempted to break through barricades set up to keep the protestors away from the entrance.
One demonstrator held a sign saying, “Zionists are not Jews, & not humans,” another carried a banner reading, “Long live October 7th,” and a third banner said, “Jihad of Victory or Martyrdom.”
The protests were organized by the pro-Palestine “Within Our Lifetime” group, which has organized multiple protests against Israel since the October 7 Hamas attacks. The group has a history of publicly supporting terrorists and several members have been arrested for attacking Jews even before the start of the Gaza War.
The group posted to X following the demonstration, saying, “We flooded the streets, took over the subway and shut down the Nova Exhibition.” The post included the inverted red triangle symbol often used by Hamas on social media to document attacks on Israeli soldiers.
https://allisrael.com/white-house-new-york-leaders-condemn-anti-israel-protests-at-nova-music-festival-exhibit
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)lapucelle
(20,155 posts)is misinformation, as is the claim that what we are seeing in the vile pro-Hamas marches in NY are merely a "few instances of anti-Semitism".
It borders on gaslighting and appears to be an attempt to normalize pro-terrorist, anti-Semitic activity on the streets of NY.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)that they unfurled in Union Square and marched behind for three miles until they got to Wall Street."
RAB910
(4,028 posts)lapucelle
(20,155 posts)Having visited the exhibit and seeing those young people and then knowing and seeing on film what happened to them at the vicious hands of Hamas, and then having people come outside and protest and say “Long Live October 7th” and “The Zionists are not Jews and not humans.” How repugnant. How despicable. How terribly unnerving that humanity could sink that low.
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/news/press-releases/majority-leader-schumer-floor-remarks-on-the-nova-music-festival-exhibition-on-the-october-7th-attack-and-condemning-antisemitic-rhetoric-at-new-york-protests
https://www.facebook.com/senschumer/videos/majority-leader-speaking-on-the-senate-floor-61124/382560741496582
And here's a bonus
&ab_channel=NewYorkPost
GoneOffShore
(17,799 posts)See post 85. There is a video of them unfurling a flag that says: Long Live October 7th.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19029641
That sure sounds like they support that message.
Cha
(310,875 posts)their Message of Pro Hamas Gang Raping, Slaughtering Innocents and Genocide of Jewish People.
Fuck the Tyranny of Hamas. 
mcar
(44,608 posts)
bigtree
(91,780 posts)...that's bullshit.
You didn't distingush between individuals or even groups. You didn't even bother to post anyone saying that.
It's as wrong as saying every person supporting Israel's military response to the attacks supports the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)bigtree
(91,780 posts)...you posted an imprecise screed against 'Demonstrators in New York.'
No one here is responsible for parsing that out into anything resembling the truth. Except you.
In my view, this is exactly what provacatuers want you to do; cast general aspersions into the debate against some nebulous enemy that you perceive in New York.
I'm strained to remind and highlight that those demonstrations represent the peace we maintain in America through dialogue, not just bombs or weapons, unlike Israel and their Palestinian attackers are relying on today.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)People who don't know anything about what happened in New York this week might want to ask a few questions before they accuse other folks (who do know about what's going on in New York) of being "provacateurs casting general aspersions".
The White House released a statement. Leader Schumer read the June 11 events into the Congressional Record, and the story has been on the news and in local and national newspapers.
It might be better to admit "I haven't kept up with the news" or "The *news sources* I consume didn't cover this story" rather than accuse a respected member of this community of malicious intent.
========================================
Link to tweet
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58Sunliner
(5,765 posts)The instantaneous protests, the extremism, and the support for Hamas. It's my personal opinion that this is a Russian op. We should support Israelis but not give Netanyahu any weapons or money for weapons. He is destructive and dirty.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)As confirmed by the UN report that came out today. Putin had nothing to do withbit.
Snipped to get to the heart of the matter of what the protests are against, but the whole report is worth the read. Balanced too, with Hamas' war crimes on Oct 7th as well as the release of hostages.
The Commission found that the crimes against humanity of extermination, gender persecution targeting Palestinian men and boys, murder, forcible transfer, and torture and inhuman and cruel treatment were also committed.
The immense numbers of civilian casualties in Gaza and widespread destruction of civilian objects and infrastructure were the inevitable result of a strategy undertaken with intent to cause maximum damage, disregarding the principles of distinction, proportionality and adequate precautions. The intentional use of heavy weapons with large destructive capacity in densely populated areas constitutes an intentional and direct attack on the civilian population.
SNIP
Although Israel issued hundreds of evacuation orders to people in north Gaza and other locations, the Commission found that they were at times insufficient, unclear and conflicting, and did not provide adequate time for safe evacuations. Furthermore, the evacuation routes and the areas designated as safe were consistently attacked by Israeli forces. All of this, the Commission determined, amounted to forcible transfer.
SNIP
58Sunliner
(5,765 posts)Israeli govt. has been committing crimes for a long time IMHO. The masked people committing acts of violence and specifically supporting Hamas look like Russian tools. Russia has been committing acts of violence in many countries. Their goal is chaos and division.
Beastly Boy
(12,311 posts)opposition to "war crimes Israel is committing"?
Do the chants of praise to the terrorist attack of October 7 sound like opposition to "war crimes Israel is committing"?
Maybe it's just me, but this looks and sounds an awful lot like supporting the Iranian-funded terrorist organization and the war crimes Hamas has committed, no?
I couldn't help but drop my jaw when I heard what you can't help but think.
canuckledragger
(1,992 posts)There's a reason I have certain people blocked...can't help what shows up on the main page though.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)It doesn't really say anything. Even in context, you could as easily be applauding as criticizing the comment you reply to.
Good for you....
flying_wahini
(8,073 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)At the risk of committing a repetition in innocence of any marketing aim, I merely insist on clarity regarding what these demonstrators are clamoring for.
mahatmakanejeeves
(64,682 posts)I can do without your condescending "dear," thank you.
And good morning.
Decided June 14, 1977
Full case name: National Socialist Party of America et al. v. Village of Skokie
Holding:
If a state seeks to impose an injunction in the face of a substantial claim of First Amendment rights, it must provide strict procedural safeguards, including immediate appellate review. Absent such immediate review, the appellate court must grant a stay of any lower court order restricting the exercise of speech and assembly rights.
Court membership:
Chief Justice
Warren E. Burger
Associate Justices
William J. Brennan Jr. · Potter Stewart
Byron White · Thurgood Marshall
Harry Blackmun · Lewis F. Powell Jr.
William Rehnquist · John P. Stevens
National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977), arising out of what is sometimes referred to as the Skokie Affair, was a landmark decision of the US Supreme Court dealing with freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. This case is considered a "classic" free speech case in constitutional law classes. Related court decisions are captioned Skokie v. NSPA, Collin v. Smith, and Smith v. Collin. The Supreme Court ruled 5–4, per curiam. The Supreme Court's 1977 ruling granted certiorari and reversed and remanded the Illinois Supreme Court's denial to lift the lower court's injunction on the NSPA's march. In other words: the courts decided a person's assertion that speech is being restrained must be reviewed immediately by the judiciary. By requiring the state court to consider the neo-Nazis' appeal without delay, the U.S. Supreme Court decision opened the door to allowing the National Socialist Party of America to march.
{snip}
Preceding lower court cases
The case began in the local Cook County court, when the Village government successfully sued, under the caption Village of Skokie v. NSPA, for an injunction to bar the demonstration. On April 28, 1977, village attorney Schwartz filed suit in the Circuit Court of Cook County for an emergency injunction against the march to be held on May 1, 1977. The injunction was granted, prohibiting marchers at the proposed Skokie rally from wearing Nazi uniforms or displaying swastikas. On behalf of the NSPA, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) challenged the injunction. The ACLU assigned civil rights attorneys David Goldberger and Burton Joseph to Collin's cases. The ACLU argued that the injunction violated the First Amendment rights of the marchers to express themselves. The ACLU challenge was unsuccessful at the lower court level.
The ACLU appealed on behalf of NSPA, but both the Illinois Appellate Court and the Illinois Supreme Court refused to expedite the case or to stay the injunction. The ACLU then appealed that refusal to the Supreme Court of the United States.
Supreme Court ruling and subsequent cases
On June 14, 1977, the Supreme Court ordered Illinois to hold a hearing on their ruling against the National Socialist Party of America, emphasizing that "if a State seeks to impose a restraint on First Amendment rights, it must provide strict procedural safeguards, including immediate appellate review. ... Absent such review, the State must instead allow a stay. The order of the Illinois Supreme Court constituted a denial of that right." On remand, the Illinois Supreme Court sent the case back to the Illinois Appellate Court. The Appellate Court ruled per curiam on July 11, 1977 that the swastika was not protected by the First Amendment. In other words, the NSPA could march, but they could not display the swastika during their march.
In its full review of the case, the Illinois Supreme Court focused on the First Amendment implications of the display of the swastika. Skokie attorneys argued that for Holocaust survivors, seeing the swastika was like being physically attacked. The state supreme court rejected that argument, ruling that display of the swastika is a symbolic form of free speech entitled to First Amendment protections and determined that the swastika itself did not constitute "fighting words". Its ruling allowed the National Socialist Party of America to march.
In parallel litigation in the federal courts, under the caption Collin v. Smith, the village's ordinance was declared unconstitutional, first by the district court and then by divided vote of the Seventh Circuit court of appeals. Over a published dissent by Justice Blackmun (joined by Justice White) giving a detailed history of the case and an overview of the issues involved, the U.S. Supreme Court denied further review.
{snip}
Argued: October 6, 2010
Decided: March 2, 2011
Full case name: Albert Snyder v. Fred W. Phelps Sr.; Westboro Baptist Church, Incorporated; Rebekah A. Phelps-Davis; Shirley L. Phelps-Roper
Holding:
Speech on a matter of public concern, in a public place, cannot be the basis of liability for a tort of emotional distress. Fourth Circuit affirmed, trial court reversed and remanded.
Court membership:
Chief Justice
John Roberts
Associate Justices
Antonin Scalia · Anthony Kennedy
Clarence Thomas · Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Stephen Breyer · Samuel Alito
Sonia Sotomayor · Elena Kagan
Case opinions
Majority: Roberts, joined by Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, Kagan
Concurrence: Breyer
Dissent: Alito
Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011), is a landmark decision by the Supreme Court of the United States in which the Court held that speech made in a public place on a matter of public concern cannot be the basis of liability for a tort of emotional distress, even if the speech is viewed as offensive or outrageous.
{snip}
Supreme Court
Chief Justice John Roberts, who wrote the majority opinion
Several news and civil rights organizations filed amicus briefs in support of Phelps, including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, and twenty-one other media organizations, including National Public Radio, Bloomberg L.P., the Associated Press, the Newspaper Association of America, and others.
Other briefs were filed in favor of Snyder, including one by Senate Majority and Minority Leaders Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid, and forty other members of the United States Senate. A number of veterans groups, including the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion, the John Marshall Veterans Legal Support Center and Clinic, and another by Kansas which was joined by the District of Columbia and every other State except Delaware and Maine.
Arguments were heard on October 6, where the WBC was represented by Phelps' daughter, Margie Phelps.
{snip}
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)I respect their absolutism, as I do a Mennonite's pacifism, but I don't think either always tracks well with actual circumstances.
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)Is that it?
Truth has a funny way of making itself known, sir.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Using what power?
In what fashion are they accused of even calling for such?
Was there a demand for unconstitutional action to be taken by someone else to terminate the right of free expression even?
How is the Constitution being "screwed"?
Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #65)
Post removed
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)No charges, no prosecution, no state sanctions, no censorship of any description, no threat of force.
Hell, no stopping anything from being said at all.
What freedom do you think is being stepped on? By what possible power?
Nobody is required to agree with anyone nor or they restricted from pushing right back on what anyone choose to spout.
There is no freedom from judgment either.
If one lies down with mangy dogs no one is required to pretend no fleas were picked up in the process and have every right call the fleabag out if they want.
There is no erosion of rights but rather a desire to not own how they were exercised and a weird fetish that demands agreement or silence because everyone that disagrees with them is an evil NPC and the scripting of the game should mute them.
revmclaren
(2,613 posts)as they have been shown the door.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,795 posts)
Cha
(310,875 posts)sarisataka
(21,666 posts)
Cha
(310,875 posts)
revmclaren
(2,613 posts)
MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)If I remember right it was a picture of a tombstone with the words "Here lies a disrupter, they disrupted poorly".
I kinda wish the admins would bring that back, it was hilarious.
Behind the Aegis
(55,359 posts)AloeVera
(2,738 posts)This will probably play a big part.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes
MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)Team Prog had a habit of saying history will not be kind in reference to Israel, it was kinda thrown back at him/her as irony.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)That's why I said what I did in response.
I shall miss Team Prog and wish him/her well, having fought the good fight. But perhaps they will get to stay. I hope so.
Hope you are well, MCE.
MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)just a suspension while the account is under review.
That happened to me also a while back and after a month or so, I was reinstated, but I think I'm one of the rare cases that was allowed to return; I didn't see the post before it was removed so I can't really say if I would have voted to hide it.
We'll know soon enough if he/she is allowed back on the active rolls.
I'm doing pretty good, back at home right now for about 4 more days then I and my traveling companion dog head up to one of the copper mines in Miami, AZ going to Ontario, CA, drop my load and then pick up a load of tires going to Sparks, NV and then from there, who knows.
How are you doing? Great I hope.
AloeVera
(2,738 posts)Thanks, I didn't know that's how it works.
Glad you are well. You're quite the traveller! Lucky you. A four-legged friend is a good travelling companion.
I've been staying put. Grand-nephew toddler duty, you know. Love the little guy to pieces, I swear I learn so much. He's too cute for words and he keeps me sane, well mostly.
Take care and enjoy your trip!
MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)I see what you did there. 
Oopsie Daisy
(5,795 posts)
Oopsie Daisy
(5,795 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)The OP is not censoring, prosecuting, or in anyway preventing the exercise of free expression.
What argument was made that would need the ACLU to weigh in on?
There is no freedom from disagreement and no number of cases upholding the right to be disagreeable.will alter that.
The right to shovel shit doesn't come with anyone being required to pretend it doesn't stink.
LeftInTX
(32,761 posts)
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)rainy
(6,281 posts)allowed a Palestinian state and STOPPED stealing land “settlements” from Palestinians. So to fix all of this and make Hamas crawl back in the hell hole they came from Israel needs to respect legitimate Palestinian leaders, which they never did and stop stealing land and allow a Palestinian state.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)bigtree
(91,780 posts)...with that nasty projection of yours.
It's one thing to disagree with a protestor or group protesting in NY, and quite another to equate mostly peaceful protests with 'supporting' terrorists.
I have no way of knowing if any of the people you've singled out 'support Hamas' in any material way. That would be a crime in the U.S. and punishable by some pretty severe laws.
But that's not what your post said, is it?
"The demonstrators support Hamas. Their goal is not the safety and well-being of Gaza's people, their goal is victory for Hamas in its crusade to kill and drive away the Jews of Israel." you wrote in your op.
That's projection at best, sophistry at its heart.
I can't help but conclude that this is what any enemy of Israel or the U.S. wants to occur; to have us casting all sorts of aspersions at 'demonstrators in NY' and elsewhere who are using dialogue instead of weapons to communicate their differences.
You don't like what they're saying and so you've attached the worst of what you can project onto their demonstrations; not against some specific individual or group, but this nebulous, biased representation of what you believe is a 'demonstrator in NY'.
You didn't post anyone demonstrating who is "openly advocat(ing) torture, rape, and murder of Jews." You just said 'demonstrations in NY" are doing this.
"The demonstrators support Hamas."
That's what you wrote.
If I was a cop, I'd be asking for proof right about now.
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)over the past weeks?
Some of us live and work here. We see what's going on on a weekly basis.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
TeamProg
(6,630 posts)daughter wants to know.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)"He was above a bit of corruption as the sea is above the sky."
tritsofme
(19,175 posts)The main reason “president” Abbas is in year 18 of his 5 year term is that they fear new elections would sweep Hamas into power not only in Gaza, but the West Bank as well.
OneGrassRoot
(23,720 posts)We’ll likely never know. The religious zealots on all sides of this intractable issue within ensuing horrors, have made sure of it. In the decades since 1948, the Islamist extremists have been very firm that Israel and the US and the West in general are absolute enemies to be destroyed.
I believe the “free Palestine” mission is now similar to the Maga border mantra: if the problem were truly solved to any meaningful degree their messaging and reason for being with cease to exist. It is rare that a group truly wants that.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)a Palestinian state co-existing with Israel will satisfy them.
Hamas needs to be removed from any grip on power at least as much as Likud.
OneGrassRoot
(23,720 posts)I didn’t focus as much on their desire for annihilation as the fact that just as with our border and the GOP, any solution isn’t truly what they want. Not anymore, if ever.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)those territories were in the hands of Egypt and Jordan.
The inhabitants also participated in the genocidal war effort that saw that resulted in the possession of the territories.
EX500rider
(11,827 posts)Mahmoud Abbas?
Last elected in 2005 but still in power?
There are frequent allegations that officials of the Palestinian Authority, including Abbas, have systematically embezzled public funds.
The Connection between the Nazis and the Leaders of the Zionist Movement 1933–1945 is the title of Abbas's CandSc thesis.
Some content of his thesis has been considered as Holocaust denial by some Jewish groups,[107] especially where he disputed the accepted number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust and claimed Zionist agitation had been the cause of the Holocaust.
In 1984, he published a book titled "The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism" (Arabic: Al-Wajh al-Ākhar: Al-'Alāqat aL-Sirriyya bayn al-Nāzīyya wa al-Sahyūniyya) based on the dissertation. In the book Abbas dismissed as a "myth" and "fantastic lie" that six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust,[109][110] writing that the real figure was at most "890,000" or "a few hundred thousand"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)Is that the Grand Mufti al'Husayni of Jerusalem, the leading light of Arab resistance to Zionism in the 1930s, fetched up in the court of Adolph Hitler, praising him for striving to exterminate all Jews, and recruiting Moslem men in Albania and Bosnia for service in the Waffen SS in the murderous occupation of Serbia. His continuing leadership role in Arab Palestine after WWII is among the reasons why there wasn't all that much attention paid in European countries which had been occupied by the Nazis to Arab complaints at Israel's establishment.
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)And btw I'm a Madam (?Ma'm) No offense taken
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)The period of the Mandate is worth a good look.
One thing to remember is that during the 1930s, there was no difference between Nazi propaganda couched as attacks on British Imperialism, and propaganda promoting Anti-Semitism. In Nazi propaganda, the great charge against England was that it was inflicting Jews on the Arab Nation. When looking at the record of collaboration and open adherence to Hitler of most Arab nationalist leaders of the time, it's just not possible to state honestly these people only aligned with Nazis because they too opposed England, not because they shared the Nazi's hatred for Jews. They were glad to find a big friend hated Jews as much as they did....
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)yardwork
(66,623 posts)The amount of disinformation and flat-out fantasy in this thread is a sight to behold.
People are just making up shit at this point.
betsuni
(27,916 posts)Israel/U.S./West: establishment status quo racist immoral corrupt warmonger capitalist oppressors.
Terrorists: anti-establishment righteous moral socialist revolutionary peaceful oppressed.
For some, terrorists are clearly the Us category and must be supported. Anyone who doesn't agree is callous, without empathy, racist, evil. Those are the rules.
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)I suspect you know what I'm talking about.
Response to The Magistrate (Original post)
Post removed
MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)The Magistrate has been around here for a long, long time, he's not an AI bot, nor an "Ivan" asset.
William769
(58,806 posts) sarisataka
(21,666 posts)The Magistrate has been here 10 years longer. Their phrasing habits are distinctive and consistent at least as long as I have been here. I would expect they would not be new to you.
With all due respect, your insinuations are way out of line.
leftstreet
(36,754 posts)One can never be sure
TBF
(35,111 posts)but agree with others that many have been duped by misinformation (including not understanding what Hamas actually is, and/or how they formed, etc. ...). Many of the college students, for example, are seeing a people who are being oppressed and they aren't understanding that Hamas is involved in the oppression of the average Palestinian as much or more than Israel.
Further, we now find ourselves with two extremist groups battling over Israel. Hamas on one side, Likud et al on the other. We were closer to peace under Clinton, until the right wing decided "nope" and assassinated Rabin. I'm sure Netanyahu knows this history as well (after all by many accounts he was there).
My view is that we do need two states, and it would really be ideal if Jerusalem wasn't desired by both of them (thanks, Trump for making this even worse under your watch) ... but in any event, I think it's the only way forward. I wish I had a great solution for this situation, but I really don't know how to get there with Hamas and Likud hell-bent on destroying each other.
bigtree
(91,780 posts)...how much I appreciated when the Israel/Palestinian issues were restricted to their own forum.
I think this debate divides us unnecessarily among Americans and among Democrats, and I believe that's what it's designed to do in this election.
There's a good reason why there's nothing but the back and forth in these posts. It's because the U.S. isn't Israel, in any shape or form. We don't conduct our social, government, or military affairs as Israel or Palestinians do.
We may well have an opinion about what Israel or Palestinians in Gaza should do, but we're about as influential in all of that as we are in the air we breathe. We take it in and we breathe it out, without a wit of responsibility for where our next breath of air is coming from; as if we control the very miasma of life itself.
It is an anathema to our nation's ages-old tradition of unfettered political dialogue to describe 'demonstrations' in the U.S., which don't usually come with anything more consequential but shouting in the air, as threatening to anyone.
Demonstrations are most often the antithesis of violence, not the practitioner. When they aren't peaceful and non-threatening, they are criminal matters.
So far, 'demonstrations in New York' have been peaceful events, absent of the bombings and shootings that other aggressors and defenders mire their countries in generations of armed conflict and unrest.
If anything, they should be a welcome alternative to the wanton killings that perpetuate between the combatants in the Middle East and devastatingly spill over into the civilian populations.
live love laugh
(15,329 posts)It’s a seemingly hopeless situation that’s devolved for decades — I see nothing to gain and much to lose inserting ourselves.
All that to say that is why I also stay away from this issue.
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)if you march with this one,
I know you are a Nazi
if you march with this one,
I know you are a racist
if you march with this one,
or
or
I know you are an antisemite
NYC June 11, 2024-
Link to tweet
Mosby
(18,504 posts)Nt.
OutNow
(895 posts)The people who marched for voting rights in the South in the 1950s and 60s were all communist dupes who were tricked by outside agitators (said the right wing of the day) and the people who marched to defend the right to abortion were all baby killers (said the right wing of the day) and the folks who marched to stop the war in Vietnam were really supporting the Viet Cong (said the right wing of the day), and the people who marched to support the right to belong to a union were all communists trying to destroy the country (said the right wing of the day).
I'm not buying it. At all. Never did. Never will.
EllieBC
(3,451 posts)TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)It wasn't Arabs struggling and dying with us to get our rights.
What a wicked fool!
electric_blue68
(21,445 posts)*his survival under a Hitler regime
PeaceWave
(1,421 posts)LeftInTX
(32,761 posts)PeaceWave
(1,421 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(15,443 posts)to be treasonous at the time, however, over the years, I've forgiven her and I do enjoy her post Vietnam movies.
thucythucy
(8,871 posts)dedicated to the memory of those Americans killed and wounded in the war?
A big part of my problem with at least some of these demonstrations is their chosen targets. Take the one in NYC outside the exhibit dedicated to the memory of those raped, murdered, and kidnapped on October 7.
Why demonstrate immediately outside such an event? New York is a big city. Surely they could have demonstrated somewhere else?
My understanding is that there were family of some of the hostages at that event.
Wasn't it then beyond cruel to demonstrate where and when they did?
In another post I liken this to the religious bigots who demonstrated next to the funerals of AIDS victims.
In that case too the cruelty was the point, and I can't imagine anyone with any sense of empathy supporting or defending such an action.
madaboutharry
(41,901 posts)that she was told to sit there and went along with it without thinking. She apologized, admitting it was a stupid thing to do and that she regretted it. So there’s that.
edhopper
(35,976 posts)we did not carry Viet Cong flags.
Response to The Magistrate (Original post)
Post removed
RandySF
(74,349 posts)For the sake of sanity.
betsuni
(27,916 posts)means a person wants to rip up the Constitution because the First Amendment's in there and take away the right to demonstrate and democracy and so on.
KPN
(16,620 posts)revmclaren
(2,613 posts)
lapucelle
(20,155 posts)revmclaren
(2,613 posts) 
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