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kentuck

(111,532 posts)
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 07:58 AM Jun 15

Should the Judge require a mental evaluation for Trump before sentencing?

As much as many of us would like to see him in prison, a compassionate and humane people should not wish that for a mentally-impaired person.

I am not a shrink or an expert in psychiatry in any manner, but I see very serious mental issues with the former president.

Instead of a prison, perhaps he should be in an institution of some sort?

Not only does he continuously talk about "aceing" his dementia tests, but his nonsensical ramblings are out there for all to see.

Would it be appropriate for the Judge to require a mental evaluation before sentencing the "convicted felon"?

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Should the Judge require a mental evaluation for Trump before sentencing? (Original Post) kentuck Jun 15 OP
Yes. ProudMNDemocrat Jun 15 #1
No. He shouldn't be treated differently than others convicted of non-violent, financial crimes onenote Jun 15 #2
WHALE! GreenWave Jun 15 #3
Probation officer/interview first. elleng Jun 15 #4
Thought that Rebl2 Jun 15 #50
Yes................... Lovie777 Jun 15 #5
Absolutely. Cyrano Jun 15 #6
The Court doesn't make rulings based on the opinion of "every sane pundit". brooklynite Jun 15 #10
Doubtful short of his lawyers requesting leniency based on diminished capacity which they would never do dutch777 Jun 15 #7
This raises a question for the lawyers here. Cyrano Jun 15 #9
Yes the judge can order a psych eval. Irish_Dem Jun 15 #17
The judge probably has the discretion to order a psych evaluation, but he hasn't and won't onenote Jun 15 #27
I agree with your assessment. Irish_Dem Jun 15 #62
This has been asked multiple times and the answer is the same: no. brooklynite Jun 15 #8
Or the judge could order it if the defendant's behavior in court was so off the wall Ocelot II Jun 15 #30
At no time could anyone argue that he was unable to participate in his own defense. That's the only requirement. brooklynite Jun 15 #45
Exactly. He's just sane enough to be able to do that, Ocelot II Jun 15 #54
No No No Irish_Dem Jun 15 #11
Only a psychiatrist diagnosis would stick bucolic_frolic Jun 15 #12
Somehow, I think Tom Cruise would voluntarily see a psychiatrist before Trump would. thesquanderer Jun 15 #44
Person. Woman. Corrupt Judge. Camera. TV. rubbersole Jun 15 #13
LOL Cyrano Jun 15 #55
Yes, he shouldn't be treated any better than any other Emile Jun 15 #14
Any other first time felon convicted of a non-violent, financial crime would NOT be given a psych exam onenote Jun 15 #29
So, do you think Trump is sane? Emile Jun 15 #31
I'm not a mental health professional so my opinion is meaningless. onenote Jun 15 #33
I would be thrilled if they would lock Trump up in Emile Jun 15 #34
Thank you. nt oldsoftie Jun 15 #43
You are really disdainful of other opinions. EndlessWire Jun 15 #57
You are entitled to your opinion, but you couldn't be more wrong about me "protecting Trump" onenote Jun 15 #58
Then stop EndlessWire Jun 15 #60
Okay. But saying I "lean toward protecting Trump" is way out of line. So maybe you should look at your own posts? onenote Jun 15 #61
Would something like that be safe for a mental evaluator? Even a pro might be traumatized. Kind of like an brewens Jun 15 #15
He should be treated like any other convicted felon and given a mental health evaluation when he is ... Botany Jun 15 #16
Trump exhibits delusional and psychotic Emile Jun 15 #18
Our prisons be them local, state, or federal are filled with people who have mental problems Botany Jun 15 #19
Absolutely a good idea. gordianot Jun 15 #20
I have nothing against that, but with one proviso DFW Jun 15 #21
i dont think a personaliuty disorder would keep him out of jail... samnsara Jun 15 #22
I think the judge has the most information to make this decision Raven123 Jun 15 #23
There was a time to present this argument. plimsoll Jun 15 #24
The judge/court do not have cause melm00se Jun 15 #25
No happy feet Jun 15 #26
I want to know why he has not been drug tested. Bev54 Jun 15 #28
Because drug testing is not required or even standard pre-sentencing for a non-violent, first time crime onenote Jun 15 #32
Because he's special. Emile Jun 15 #35
Or, more accurately, because he's not being treated as "special" onenote Jun 15 #37
LOL, your own opinion do you think Trump is sane? Emile Jun 15 #39
Asked and answered. See post #33 onenote Jun 15 #40
I know, you don't have any opinion on Trump. Emile Jun 15 #41
I have plenty of opinions on him. None positive. onenote Jun 15 #46
. . . . Emile Jun 15 #47
I don't think many people who aren't his cult members think he's mentally normal. Ocelot II Jun 15 #56
I know from present experience... kentuck Jun 15 #36
Yes. While he's at it, he can order one for Sam, The Flag, and Clarence, The Clown, too. Wonder Why Jun 15 #38
Why? Fiendish Thingy Jun 15 #42
He should be tossed in a cauldron of boiling oil. If he sinks, set his innocent, cooked corpse free. Hermit-The-Prog Jun 15 #48
Yea, then leek out the crazy results. Nt Quixote1818 Jun 15 #49
The prison system, like society in general, slightlv Jun 15 #51
If there was a question of sanity it should had been done before the trial. LiberalFighter Jun 15 #52
Or at his first impeachment...or at his second impeachment! n/t Hope22 Jun 15 #53
The simple answer is yes. returnee Jun 15 #59
Yes LetMyPeopleVote Jun 16 #63

ProudMNDemocrat

(17,364 posts)
1. Yes.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:06 AM
Jun 15

Given this man's track record, a cognitive test as part of the aging process should be required.

The Aging Study through The Mayo Clinic I have partaken in take about 2 hours and are thorough and painless.

As we age, we do lose some of our abilities to remember stories, words in a lineup, how to draw a clock, various diagrams, motor skills, etc.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
2. No. He shouldn't be treated differently than others convicted of non-violent, financial crimes
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:07 AM
Jun 15

with no established history of substance abuse or mental problems. The judge observed him in court over the course of the trial and did not order a psychiatric exam as part of sentencing nor did he at any time suggest that Trump suffered from diminished capacity that would have impacted his guilt or innocence.

But if folks want to blame the judge for not ordering an exam, I suppose that's what they'll do.

Cyrano

(15,162 posts)
6. Absolutely.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:14 AM
Jun 15

Not only for fairness to him, but for the safety of the country. Every sane pundit has declared him a danger to democracy if he again becomes president.

dutch777

(3,183 posts)
7. Doubtful short of his lawyers requesting leniency based on diminished capacity which they would never do
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:16 AM
Jun 15

As Trump would never let them. He would have to be even more unwound than he is I think for the judge to put that into play unilaterally.

Cyrano

(15,162 posts)
9. This raises a question for the lawyers here.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:18 AM
Jun 15

Can the judge do it unilaterally based on Trump's public behavior?

Irish_Dem

(52,428 posts)
17. Yes the judge can order a psych eval.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:46 AM
Jun 15

I am retired mental health professional and have been asked by the court to perform
psych evals prior to trial or prior to sentencing.

Sometimes the defense attorney calls and asks for a psych eval for their client.

The offender to be evaluated can be out on bail, in jail or in a hospital.

Then you have to schlep all your testing materials to jail or hospital which
is a pain. Because the jail guards go through all of your expensive testing materials
and sometimes start pulling things apart if they think they can be used as weapons.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
27. The judge probably has the discretion to order a psych evaluation, but he hasn't and won't
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:33 AM
Jun 15

His "public behavior" is probably the least important factor. First, the judge would consider the crime involved. Psych exams are virtually never ordered for a first time offender convicted of a non-violent, financial crime where there is no documented history of substance abuse or mental problems. Second, the judge would look at his behavior in the courtroom -- if the judge had felt there was some issue of Trump having diminished capacity, he should and would have raised it before the end of the trial.

The bottom line: the sentencing interview was conducted. The judge didn't order a psych evaluation. This ship has sailed. Time for folks to move on unless they're prepared to throw Judge Merchan under the bus.

Irish_Dem

(52,428 posts)
62. I agree with your assessment.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 07:08 PM
Jun 15

To order a psych eval at this late date would throw a monkey wrench into the trial results and sentencing.

Merchan would be a fool to do this and he does not appear to be a fool.

brooklynite

(96,623 posts)
8. This has been asked multiple times and the answer is the same: no.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:17 AM
Jun 15

A defendant is presumed to be responsible for his behavior, UNLESS his attorney claims mental deficiency as a mitigating factor. Trump will never allow his attorney to do so.

Ocelot II

(117,422 posts)
30. Or the judge could order it if the defendant's behavior in court was so off the wall
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:36 AM
Jun 15

that it seemed necessary to look into his mental state before sentencing. Trump was obnoxious in court but not so obviously mentally disturbed that such an order would be appropriate. He was never overtly crazy in the courtroom.

brooklynite

(96,623 posts)
45. At no time could anyone argue that he was unable to participate in his own defense. That's the only requirement.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 10:24 AM
Jun 15

Ocelot II

(117,422 posts)
54. Exactly. He's just sane enough to be able to do that,
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 12:19 PM
Jun 15

although it's been noted that in ordering his lawyers to focus on trying to discredit Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen, and then presenting Robert Costello as his sole "defense" witness, he torpedoed his own case. But that's not the kind of crazy that gets you a court-ordered psych eval. It's just Trump's special kind of stupid.

Irish_Dem

(52,428 posts)
11. No No No
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:37 AM
Jun 15

1. Trump does not qualify for NGRI (Not guilty by reason of insanity.)
He knows exactly that what he does is wrong, he carefully hides his crimes.
And his drug abuse alone disqualifies him for NGRI.

2. Being a ruthless and dangerous sociopath is a mental illness, but it has no bearing upon verdict and sentencing.
Prisons are full of sociopaths.

3. Getting a psych eval will open a huge can of worms.
This issue can and will be fought over, making for a long delay.



bucolic_frolic

(44,630 posts)
12. Only a psychiatrist diagnosis would stick
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:39 AM
Jun 15

Maybe he's seeing one and that's why his legal team evaded the medication questions.

Medication or the worst case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not a basis for detention in a mental health facility. An imminent threat to self or society would be required to even think of an evaluation, let alone a court ordered one.

The problem is not bombastic or covert threats, lots of NPD's make similar statements and skirt legal issues the whole time. The problem is that te media pays attention and therefore he gains attention and traction with his issues from the attention. That's why he didn't fade into obscurity like a normal election loser. It's all about pimping his ego for power and money and attention.

My opinions of course, I'm not a MH Pro.

thesquanderer

(12,146 posts)
44. Somehow, I think Tom Cruise would voluntarily see a psychiatrist before Trump would.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 10:14 AM
Jun 15

(responding to your comment, "maybe he's seeing one and that's why his legal team evaded the medication questions.)

Cyrano

(15,162 posts)
55. LOL
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 12:53 PM
Jun 15

Yeah, he's bragged non-stop that he "Aced" his cognitive exam by remembering the five words: "Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV."

onenote

(43,404 posts)
29. Any other first time felon convicted of a non-violent, financial crime would NOT be given a psych exam
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:35 AM
Jun 15

Unless, and maybe not even then, there were documented substance abuse or mental issues -- documented by actual professionals not keyboard warriors.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
33. I'm not a mental health professional so my opinion is meaningless.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:41 AM
Jun 15

And while Judge Merchan isn't a mental health professional, he oversees the Manhattan Mental Health Court, so I'm going to go with the fact that he didn't see the need to order a psych evaluation over whatever my opinion of the guy's sanity might be or the opinion of any other keyboard warriors and internet "experts".

Emile

(25,420 posts)
34. I would be thrilled if they would lock Trump up in
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:44 AM
Jun 15

a mental hospital for at least a few years. Maybe a couple lobotomies later and he'll be well? We all know he is crazy as hell and needs a psychological exam.

EndlessWire

(6,918 posts)
57. You are really disdainful of other opinions.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 03:29 PM
Jun 15

You lean toward protecting Trump. You think that other opinions mean that Judge Merchan is being disregarded.

But, in the end, you are doing exactly what you dislike from other posters. You are substituting your opinion about what should happen in place of the fact that no one here knows what J. Merchan is thinking or will do. You decided that, because YOU are acting as an "expert."

J. Merchan has a wide range of possible responses to this particularly problematical defendant. I personally think that Trump is dark, vicious and doesn't deserve anything else other than being sentenced within the wide range available to the Judge. That's my opinion in response to the convicted felon who is the biggest threat to our Democracy today. I would love to see Trump thrown in prison for life, the sooner the better.

But, that isn't likely to happen. That's the most you can say about my opinion, because you just don't know what J. Merchan is thinking.

I don't think that a psych eval will make any difference, but if J. Merchan is dissatisfied with the 30 minute interview he received from the probation department, be my guest. Just more delay.

Trump is a 34-count CONVICTED FELON who has threatened witnesses in his unique, mob boss way. One month in jail and at least 4 years on probation, if not more, because of the "30 for 30" New York rule. Long enough for us to search ALL his properties without a contestable warrant, a thorough search right down to the foundations of the buildings. Let's xray everything. Let Garland appoint a search Master. Let's look for his gun. Not much he can do about it.

I'll be happy either way. Probation is not freedom. Let's strictly enforce a severe probation order. Let him run to the Appellates in an effort to loosen his probation. "I have to campaign!" Tell it to your PO, Orange Asshole.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
58. You are entitled to your opinion, but you couldn't be more wrong about me "protecting Trump"
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 03:46 PM
Jun 15

What I'm disdainful of are posters who misrepresent facts and law where doing so supports their opinion. It's one thing to be of the opinion Trump should be thrown should be thrown in prison for years or for life. Or that he should get a psych evaluation or be given a drug test. It's another thing for people to claim that's what would happen because its mandatory or is standard treatment for anyone else.

I'm substituting facts and citations to law and precedent. I'm responding to unsupported assertions that everyone gets a psych exam or that assumptions that because we think he's delusional, the judge should order a psych exam --- after the trial. I'm responding to assumptions that anyone else other than Trump would be sentenced to years in prison, where an extensive survey of thousands of cases by Norm Eisen found that less than 10 percent of falsifying business record convictions result in prison time, and most of those involve a conviction for Grand Larceny as well as business record falsification.

Do I want Trump imprisoned? I won't shed a tear for him if he is, but I think it would be a mistake for him to be treated more harshly than the norm for a first time felon convicted of a non-violent, financial crime, particularly in the absence of any documented history of substance abuse or mental illness. And while I don't "know" what Judge Merchan is going to do, I do "know" -- as does everyone -- that he didn't order a psych evaluation during the trial or as part of the pre-sentencing process and that the fact that he oversee the Manhattan Mental Health Court is a relevant fact.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
61. Okay. But saying I "lean toward protecting Trump" is way out of line. So maybe you should look at your own posts?
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 04:42 PM
Jun 15

brewens

(14,117 posts)
15. Would something like that be safe for a mental evaluator? Even a pro might be traumatized. Kind of like an
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:44 AM
Jun 15

exorcist.

Maybe they could break it up? Have a number of evaluators handle a small part to spread out the risk. Kind of like this Monte Python skit.

Botany

(71,106 posts)
16. He should be treated like any other convicted felon and given a mental health evaluation when he is ...
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:44 AM
Jun 15

….inside the correctional system.

Emile

(25,420 posts)
18. Trump exhibits delusional and psychotic
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:50 AM
Jun 15

behavior. If he is guilty of insanity he should be locked up in a mental hospital before he hurts anybody else.

Botany

(71,106 posts)
19. Our prisons be them local, state, or federal are filled with people who have mental problems
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:57 AM
Jun 15

Trump should be treated the same as all the other inmates. But he won’t be.

gordianot

(15,329 posts)
20. Absolutely a good idea.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 08:59 AM
Jun 15

There is a plethora of professionals that would pay for that opportunity. Too bad this was not a possibility several decades ago.

DFW

(55,248 posts)
21. I have nothing against that, but with one proviso
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:01 AM
Jun 15

That evaluation should be conducted by the same quacks that have been pronouncing him for for the presidency the wh9ole time up to now. Ronny Jackson types. If their evaluation so far that he is fit to serve as president still holds water, then he is just as fit to serve his sentence. If he is no longer fit to serve his sentence then I would entertain motions for placing him in an institution instead of a prison. However, if he is fit enough to serve in the Oval Office, then he is fit enough to serve his time behind bars.


He is either fit for both, or he is fit for neither. Republican political expediency does not deserve to have a medical evaluation go one way if it serves their purpose, and another way if it doesn't.

samnsara

(17,861 posts)
22. i dont think a personaliuty disorder would keep him out of jail...
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:08 AM
Jun 15

...most criminals exhibit some of this anyway...

plimsoll

(1,684 posts)
24. There was a time to present this argument.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:25 AM
Jun 15

It should have been presented pre-trial, and there might have been grounds for dismissing the charges. They could range from currently diminished capacity due to dementia, diminished capacity due to prolonged substance abuse, or possibly even inability to charge because the accused can not understand the charges. That has massive problems, the first is the massive tantrum Trump would have had, the second the fact that Trump would not have allowed such a plea, and you can just go on from there. Finally, consider this, there is nothing in the constitution that prevents a person with diminished capacity from running for or actually winning the Presidency. The 25th Amendment might provide a means to remove said President, but could it actually happen if said diminished capacity individual truly did win.

Everything about Trump has been unprecedented, and continues to be. We can talk about him all we want, but a sad reality is that a sizable portion of the electorate are slavishly devoted to a clearly psychologically damaged person. What does that say about us as a nation?

Normally a great many liberals might accept a compassionate argument for deferred or suspended sentence for someone with Trumps mental health issues. But we cannot because under our laws he actually does present a danger to himself or others. Our system was not built to protect itself from unreason.

melm00se

(5,019 posts)
25. The judge/court do not have cause
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:30 AM
Jun 15

to order a competency exam/hearing as at no time was Trump's competency raised by either the prosecution or the defense.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
32. Because drug testing is not required or even standard pre-sentencing for a non-violent, first time crime
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:38 AM
Jun 15

where there is no documented history of drug or substance abuse.

What you are asking is why isn't Trump treated differently than others convicted of a non-violent, financial crime.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
37. Or, more accurately, because he's not being treated as "special"
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:52 AM
Jun 15

I get that you can't accept this fact.

onenote

(43,404 posts)
40. Asked and answered. See post #33
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:57 AM
Jun 15

You responded to my answer to that same question from you in post #33, so I know you saw it.

Ocelot II

(117,422 posts)
56. I don't think many people who aren't his cult members think he's mentally normal.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 01:33 PM
Jun 15

But that's not the standard for ordering a psych evaluation. Courts do that when a defendant is pleading insanity, when there's a question whether the defendant is competent to stand trial, or when a his mental condition is a relevant factor in the legal proceedings, i.e., diminished capacity due to substance abuse. He didn't plead insanity; he isn't so barking mad that he couldn't participate in his defense; and no other question came up as to whether his mental state affected the proceedings.

kentuck

(111,532 posts)
36. I know from present experience...
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 09:50 AM
Jun 15

...that there can be significant mental deterioration in just a matter of a few short weeks. That doesn't make me a professional. It only makes me an observer and a participant. It is my loving wife.

Fiendish Thingy

(16,486 posts)
42. Why?
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 10:01 AM
Jun 15

It hasn’t been requested by defense counsel, and Trump’s mental health wasn’t introduced as an issue during the trial, so, no he shouldn’t order an evaluation.

Just another fantasy not connected to the actual sentencing process.

slightlv

(3,387 posts)
51. The prison system, like society in general,
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 10:57 AM
Jun 15

is adapting itself to older adults in residence. There's nothing to be done about T's Narcissism at this age. Senile Dementia or Alzheimer's, whichever he has, should make no difference in prison or not. They're got a lot of aging felons in prison. Heck, the structure in a prison might actually do him some good.... not that I'm advocating for him being treated any different in there than anyone else.

Enough with the special treatment, is my personal opinion. What's that old Baretta adage... if you can't do the time, don't do the crime?

returnee

(119 posts)
59. The simple answer is yes.
Sat Jun 15, 2024, 03:50 PM
Jun 15

I do have training and experience in psychiatry. I can give the unqualified opinion that TSFConvict has multiple traits of virtually the entire spectrum of the Cluster B personality disorders: antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic.
He is basically a train wreck of a person. This is dangerous and would be definitively diagnosed on any impartial assessment, in my opinion.

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