General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill the Ivy League schools make it through the on-line education scams?
With the success of education in a box schemes and for-profit diploma mills, I wonder if the !% instutions like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have exceeded their sell by date and be around in 5 yrs.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)It's a lifestyle.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Ivy League schools will be the last effected by online coarses. People who go to Ivy League schools go because they are Ivy League schools. Further, to characterize online coarses as "scams" is nonsense. Unless you are talking about some non-accredited actual scams, most online coarses/classes these days are offered by fully accredited colleges and universities.
no_hypocrisy
(46,202 posts)Success in the business world is often dependent upon with whom you've gone to school.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)I begin to wonder about necessity of these institutions.
no_hypocrisy
(46,202 posts)your buddies will try to bring you into their business or ventures on a lifelong basis. You aren't likely to be unemployed if you're with a certain clique.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)If they are unemployed for more than a few months, they are probably not using all their resources or being flexible enough. If you go to a good college, participate in extracurricula activities,have several friends or more there, develop a good relationship with professor(s), visit the college career center throughout your college career, get internship(s) and/or useful volunteer work, and be willing to relocate you will have a greater than 99% chance of finding employment within a few months of graduation. If one or more of those things is not true, your chances will go down. If none is true, you probably are better with an online degree.
I do think that bottom quartile colleges could be in trouble, but top colleges will probably be immune.
Renew Deal
(81,877 posts)So do many others.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)almost all offer online degrees. Both KU and K State are respected institutions whose degrees are anything but scams.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)programs offered by accredited universities or colleges.
While there are a lot of negatives to be had with the diploma mills, I have nothing but good things to say about online education offered by Coursera. Coursera, in case you don't know, offers free classes from top universities (Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, etc.) in a variety of subjects ranging from computing to health care.
Some of its courses are under consideration for actually being able to grant credit. For example, I am taking a class from Coursera in reasoning and arguing. Though I've taken classes like this before, it is an excellent refresher course and in fact has given me a few more tidbits of information. This class alone has over 170,000 students worldwide.
Not everyone can afford or meets the eligibility criteria for the Ivies or other top 10 schools. Everyone, however, should be afforded a good education. Considering that many of the students at the Ivies or other top 10 schools are there not because of merit but because of 'legacy' or money, Coursera is one small way to get a top-level education - even if there are no credits.
But the class does require some work. There is a textbook, there are video lectures, there are quizzes, and discussion groups with fellow students as well. At the end of the course, whoever finishes and completes all assignments satisfactorily will receive a certificate from the instructors.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)Murdock says there is billions to made in education. I worry. This can only be done by removing brick and mortar institutions.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Yes, I get that many, including myself, are upset about how private institutions (and state ones for that matter) are more concerned with money than with education these days. And don't get me started on the private banks and the student loan scandal of our time.
However, with that said, the University of Phoenix is an accredited institution that offers legitimate online and offline courses and degrees. It is not a diploma mill.
My undergraduate degree was from a small private liberal arts college on the US News & World Reports top schools. I then got my first Masters at an Ivy League institution. A few years after that I earned two degrees from the University of Phoenix, one in clinical mental health counseling and the other an MBA with a concentration in entrepreneurship. I went straight into an excellent state university's Doctoral program in psychology where I finished my professional training. I have also done several online programs with certs in various subjects including electronics and computer programming.
The University of Phoenix was, at the time I did my studies, the only stand-alone terminal Masters at a private institution with CACREP accreditation which it has maintained in good standing to the present day. I was able to start a private practice in psychotherapy with that degree well before finishing a Doctorate. That gave me an opportunity to start supervision in the therapeutic schools that normally would have required waiting until I had finished my Doctorate.
I had bad teachers and good teachers at all of these institutions. I ran into good and bad administrative decisions as well at all of these institutions. Each had their strengths and their weakness. For someone as self-motivated as I have always been, the adult education model at the UoP was ideal for me while I worked and played gigs.
Other than correcting this bit of misinformation, I agree with the bulk of your response. The key to a good education is solely with the student. Online education can be excellent but it does depend upon the student's learning style. Are they self-directed? Do they mind not having actual face-to-face contact? If they intend to go further with graduate or post-graduate work, they have to make sure that their online program is regionally accredited by the DOE.
Coursera is excellent. Have you also checked out The Saylor Foundation? It is completely open-source material with full 'majors' in various subjects. Check it out.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)A diploma mill actually does mean something. It is an unaccredited institution. Often there is not a physical location just a PO Box. It often does not require classes but merely accepts cash directly for a degree based on 'life experience' or a short paper on a topic. There are hundreds of these online ranging from Bible colleges to 'alternative' health programs like the now defunct Clayton College.
The University of Phoenix is NOT a diploma mill. I paid for real classes which I attended for several years. I had approved internships at places as diverse as the Arizona State Mental Hospital to Jewish Family & Children Services. I had professors from a variety of settings and educational backgrounds depending upon the degree. From a psychologist who specialized in CBT and was educated at UCLA to an economics professor who was educated at Northwestern and also taught at Thunderbird.
Being CACREP accredited, I had no problems after my coursework with passing the National Clinical Mental Health Counseling Examination . My degree was as valid as any others regionally accredited degree, and with my 3.98 GPA, internship references, and Certified Clinical Mental Health Counselor (CCMHC) credentials, I had no problems getting in to a competitive doctoral program, completing my coursework, internships, and getting licensed.
So, if you want to argue that it like just about every other college & university in the last decade now provides diplomas with outrageous levels of taxpayer funded student loans, then sure, let's talk about that. If you want to discuss howl the sociopathy of corporate America has taken over education at the undergraduate and graduate levels, then sure, let's talk about that. I received my degrees almost 30 years ago, and much has changed since then.
Educational expenses have grown to be outrageous. Student Loan policies and procedures are draconian and a new form of usury. And with the rise of the internet, there are, as I said, a lot of real diploma mills not worth a damn. For more information on this, go here:
http://www2.ed.gov/students/prep/college/diplomamills/diploma-mills.html
But please stop muddying a legitimate discussion about the problems with higher education in the US right now and discussions about online education with emotional hyperbole and inaccurate information.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)I won't agree to disagree.
Yours is an erroneous opinion. Mine is a statement of fact based on proper definitions and actual experience.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and i can keep my belief in your erroneousness.
I take your point about accredited v. non-accredited, but I have reasons for continuing to call UP a diploma mill and rather than get into a discussion that would be acrimonious I'll keep them to myself.
TM99
(8,352 posts)if you are unwilling to discuss freely why you stated what you did.
Fine, I have no problem respecting your decision not to discuss it further, however, please don't go around stating untruths, half-truths, or out-right errors concerning the University of Phoenix and diploma mills if you are not willing to share the reasons and be open to discussion & even counter-arguments.
I am not blindly defending the University of Phoenix as I do know as an alum the very real issues that have developed there in the last decade in particular. But having been educated at a variety of different institutions ranging from ones like UoP to an Ivy League, there are problems today that are far bigger than any one single institution that all face and that negatively impact learners today.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)agreeing to disagree has nothing to do with truth value of either party's beliefs.
TM99
(8,352 posts)If you aren't willing to actually discuss or argue your points, then yes, you are asking me and others to take on 'faith' that your 'beliefs' are factual true and mine are factual false.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)the conversation civilly. not sure why you can't drop it.
so bye.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)rural students access to education.
aandegoons
(473 posts)And another who went to a top ten. There is so much more to those schools than some piece of paper.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)I think they'll be fine. The 1%ers have no intention of giving their kids diploma mill degrees. That's for the little people.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)A law degree from Harvard opens up a lot more doors than even a degree from other similarly ranked institutions. NYU is a great law school, but Harvard is still much more impressive on a resume. Especially when you are trying for that first job.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)and they're all very bright, very competent attorneys.
Harvard opens up more doors than NYU, but there are a couple of other law schools at that level. Harvard's rivals, Yale and Stanford are equally good. On the West Coast, Stanford has a phenomenal reputation and opens as many doors as Harvard, perhaps more. Yale is probably better than any other school for those students who intend to teach or go into non-profits or government service, for what I've seen. Columbia is also very good, and almost always in the top 5.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)I really want to work in New York so it would be great for me, but I'm not sure I'll have the numbers for it. However, I hope to have the numbers to get into one of the top 14 which would still allow me to work in New York. I have heard Yale is the best for public interest work. This is just hearsay, but I've heard Harvard is better for getting jobs in "biglaw."