General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAll the adults who died were women
In a political season where women and their rights were used as punching bags, and women like Sandra Fluke were slut-shamed for standing up for their rights, it is interesting to me that the heroes of Sandy Hook are women. Those who died saving, and trying to save, their young charges. Those who did save their kids, and kept them as safe and calm as possible until help arrived.
Women who were teachers and library clerks and psychologists. Most members of a union. The biggest "devils" of the Right.
(I am not discounting the custodian who risked his life to protect the children or any other of the brave and caring men who are part of this story, but after the last year of women and teachers taking such hits, the irony is strong.)
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--but deaths of young kids do.
Maybe because at a certain level, violent murders of women --is accepted.
"The U.S. Department of Justice has found that women are far more likely to be the victims of violent crimes committed by intimate partners than men, especially when a weapon is involved. Moreover, women are much more likely to be victimized at home than in any other place."
"A woman must consider the risks of having a gun in her home, whether she is in a domestic violence situation or not. While two thirds of women who own guns acquired them primarily for protection against crime, the results of a California analysis show that purchasing a handgun provides no protection against homicide among women and is associated with an increase in their risk for intimate partner homicide.
"A 2003 study about the risks of firearms in the home found that females living with a gun in the home were nearly three times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun in the home.6 Finally, another study reports, women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths, again invalidating the idea that a handgun has a protective effect against homicide."
More at: http://crimeinamerica.net/2009/09/23/when-men-murder-women-state-by-state-analysis/
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)With all the finalists and "coaches" holding up the names and ages of everyone who died (including, I was lad to see, Nancy Lanza) while some of them sang. That's when it struck me that all the murdered adults were women, ranging from early 20's to about 60. Women and union teachers and support staff.
Care Acutely
(1,370 posts)One can add to this that a woman is more likely to be attacked and/or killed by her partner during pregnancy than she is at other times.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)there's a sense that as adults, the victims at least had some sort of life, whereas 6 & 7 year olds did not. It's not that people care less about the adults but that the children never had a chance at life.....
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)In general.
Great article, thanks
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)to blame women. Their war never takes a day off:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/19/conservative-magazine-says-shooting-caused-by-too-many-women-at-school/
The ultra-conservative National Review, who earlier suggested that Newtown was the price of the Second Amendment, recently ran an editorial from rabid anti-feminist, Charlotte Allen, who implied that the shooter was able to kill with so ease due to Newtown being a feminized setting. Thats right, if it werent for all those damn ladies doing their nails, washing dishes and performing the Vagina Monologues then not a single kid wouldve been harmed.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)gotta get the "feminine" out of everything.
Does anyone really doubt the War on Women?
Happyhippychick
(8,379 posts)Why didn't she run?"
I told her that's what a mom does to protect her babies and all of those students were her babies.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)The school psychologist, who I believe was the oldest person killed, also ran towards the gunman to try and stop him.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)I have my doubts. I hope I never have to find out.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)a la izquierda
(11,795 posts)I don't teach elementary school, but college.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)But now, after several days thinking about it, I know I wouldn't want to survive if even one of my students was killed. I don't think I could handle the guilt.
So yes I know that's a selfish reason but it's honestly how I feel today.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)I would try to kick his ass, paying special attention to the eyes and crotch; yes INDEED
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)SWTORFanatic
(385 posts)Of course it all depends on the situation. Facing someone with a gun (especially from medium range) is always bad news. If I'm far away from someone with a gun, I'm running away. If I'm in a crowd and someone starts firing, I'm running away.
If I'm a sitting duck at close or medium range and alone or in a small group, I'm charging - because if I run away in that situation I'm just going to get shot in the back. If I charge I stand a slim chance which is disarming the person. Again unlikely but better than getting shot in the back.
John2
(2,730 posts)since I'm a man and a pretty big man, I would have went after him but differently. He had an assault weapon and two hand guns. I would have picked up the nearest heavy object and threw it at him, and then charged. Those are weapons too.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Hot steam iron in a store when the burglar came after me. Just reflexes. It worked.
Freedomofspeech
(4,226 posts)And made me cry. I'm a retired teacher and trust me that is just how it is...they are your babies, no matter how old they are.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)pasto76
(1,589 posts)willingness to die in place of your neighbor or comrade is an elevated state of being. I feel the same depth of loss as I do when I read about more soldier deaths over seas or suicides. Our country lost some of the finest citizens we had friday. To the hands of a maniac
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)that if all the deaths were adult women people would not care nearly so much? It's the deaths of kids that gets to people. Even people who have been taking NRA money for years apparently have some feelings left for children.
I don't understand this except to say that it fits with a society (like you point out in your OP) that puts down women constantly and ignores the daily death toll of American women.
Y'know, there IS a connection.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)friends. I'm a feminist, and I think this is a wonderful OP, and I agree with your comment to a point.
But having become a parent (now with a school-age child) I find that there is a unique kind of horror to the idea that your child -- especially a child who isn't even old enough to get dressed by herself in the morning, and who is still at the stage where she believes her parent can fix EVERYTHING -- should die in pain and terror, far away from you. It's hard to even type this. I think that's why even the gun-nuts are broken down by this particular shooting.
Otherwise, agreed.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)The death of a child is such a visceral thing.
Let me ask you this....if all or most the adult victims were male, do you believe people would care more or less?
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Like after the Colorado shooting.
I have never stated women's deaths are more important btw.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Victoria Soto, Dawn Hochsprung and Anne Marie Murphy have and should be remembered for their amazing self sacrifice. As for less "tales of bravery", more people escaped from the direct line of fire in Aurora than did Sandy Hook, leaving more opportunity for survivor's stories. I do, however, recall one story of some boyfriend high tailing it to his car and taking off, leaving his pregnant fiance behind to fend for herself in the theater.
I also never implied you placed importance about male or female deaths one way or another, I was addressing marionsghost and her point. I think there are levels to which we as society place the horror of murder....it goes children, women, men....you can even break it down further by age and race if you get into how the media portrays missing persons, for example.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)So to clarify, you think if male teachers were in those situations, they'd be getting more not just equal credit?
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)You are wanting me to say something to derail this thread. No patience for this today.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but from my perspective it would go --children, men, women. Because of the attitude in our society that women are less important, more expendable, the weaker sex. Look at the stats re murder of women...horrifying, but nothing changes. It is accepted. Women, young black men, Sikhs, Hispanics, homeless or poor--these deaths do not matter as much as the deaths of white men & white children. It's a subtle thing.
Thankfully that attitude is changing, but the Neanderthal Rethuglicons would obviously prefer that it didn't. So we are still subjected to it, and it does subtly influence general attitudes toward murder. But whatever can budge the Neanderthals....OK.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I agree with you about minorities....and the poor and homeless....forget it....not even on the radar.
However, when a young white male and a young white female disappear, whom do you think is more likely to draw national coverage? Was Natalie Holloway ignored?
I think you are right that there is a perception media wise of women as "the weaker sex"....and you're wrong that it makes them expendable. Instead, they are more valuable to the media narrative. It's easier to get the viewer to empathize with a missing college age woman, because by god, she shouldn't be gone this long! What happened?
If a white male college student disappears, the immediate reaction is, he got drunk or stoned....took off somewhere....if they find him dead in water, well he just fell in and drowned. There's no scramble to investigate the possibility he was a victim of foul play, at least by the media. And guess what....it's happening more than you think!
I'd also encourage you to take a look at a lot of the workplace shootings that go on....there are a fair amount of them where white males end up the targeted victims because guess what....they are in positions of power over the disgruntled employee who comes back to kill them. And how long do those stories stay on the front page or even get discussed? Not as long as Columbine, Virginia Tech, or this one will, you can bet that. By your argument, those stories would be talked about more than this one because of victim demographics.
It irritates me because all instances of mass shootings should be a call to action, but some, because they don't hit the right emotional buttons for the media, are quickly forgotten. Anyone remember the Portland mall shooter last week? Nah, he "only" killed two....one woman and one man.
kurosagi
(26 posts)...and to add to it, we rarely hear of the male human trafficking victims, however my friends who work undercover in this industry estimate that more males are trafficked here in Houston than females. Here's a little support although it is dated and only gives us reported victims. http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/male-victims-of-sex-trafficking/
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and brings me to tears, each and every time.
i care.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)After I saw the names and ages on the placards on The Voice.
It also makes me wonder if Lanza had a hatred towards women. Or maybe not. I hate to assign him motives. It's just troubling.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)were in charge (primarily) and he could overcome them more easily?
I have wondered this but didn't want to ask it here because emotions have been too raw. but at some point these questions should be raised.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....claiming his mother DID do some volunteer work with the particular class that was targeted at the school. The claim being that Lanza was angry his mother "loved those children more than him".
I've heard nothing about this elsewhere yet.
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)has said she had no official connection with it, either as a teacher, staff, or volunteer.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)He went there as a child and he was familiar with it since it was in his community. regardless of whether his mother worked/volunteered there or not...
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)Daily Mail's article stating that she'd worked or volunteered there and that he then resented the children because of it, not to your post.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)A kid being gunned down is ALWAYS going to get more attention than when an adult (male or female) is killed.
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)children who die every single day from gun violence, usually in poor and/or minority and urban areas. Children from ages 5-14 in this country are at least ten times more likely to die from gun violence than in the other developed countries, and they're disproportionately poor and/or minority. I live on an Indian reservation and see it all the freaking time, and my parents were teachers in not-so-great areas and they saw it all the freaking time.
Yet the media doesn't care and society doesn't care, it's considered to be par for the course now. It's when it hits white kids in an affluent suburb that it somehow REALLY "matters" and there's finally talk about "how to stop it"; but what they're often referring to is mass shootings and not the numerous daily victims of guns, with a too-large share being children and poor and/or minority ones at that. In this society, frankly, only "some" children matter, not others.
And you can see that by all of the hand-wringing over "we thought we were safe here", "it wasn't supposed to happen here", etc., etc. As if it's okay if it happens to THOSE people in THOSE places, but not "here", with fairly well-off white children. Bleh.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Why should one death draw more attention and concern than another in this country?
"We thought we were safe here" -- yep, the subtext is that only some deserve the right to be safe from gun violence.
Thank you.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)The younger a human is the more tragic it is as that person didn't even get a chance....
No chance to make love-
No chance to contribute to society-
No chance to do a blurnout in a 70 Charger-
No chance to say I do-
No chance to go skydiving-
and on, and on, and on---
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)not DU'ers.
We ignore the institutionalized violence of poverty too.
Or maybe I should say as a culture, we collectively accept it. We don't challenge it. Maybe around the margins. In areas we are comfortable talking about.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)I know there's a lot of anger towards her, but I think it's only because people are reacting quite strongly to this and are venting without thinking. I don't believe most people really think she deserved being killed.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--but a mother who deliberately arms and trains her disturbed son is not exactly someone you can admire.
She is pitiable, but right now pity should be reserved for the victims.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)and if you think you're the perfect parent and in a position to judge all other parents then I believe you're deluding yourself.
And I don't reserve my pity to only who you may think is deserving. It's a good thing there are no laws about who one may pity.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)So you go and pity whomever you want, and let marions ghost pity whom she pities.
Throckmorton
(3,579 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)
Having him ajudicated as Non compos mentis and comitted was the second hardest thing I have ever done. After Friday, I do feel a lot better about that decision.
It took me over a year to acheive this, and I can understand the denial that his mother went through, I went through it myself when my son was 14.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)I agree.
JohnnyLib2
(11,212 posts)I want to praise you for taking that unhappy step, out of the very few choices there are/were. And thank you for posting the personal side so that others learn something about "walking a mile in the moccasins....."
Part of your decision might have been thinking "where will we (both) be 5 years from now." So hard to know, so hard to do.
avebury
(10,952 posts)mother had her guns properly secured. If she suspected or knew that her son was troubled and failed to secure her weapons then I am hardly shocked at the outcome. I know someone whose son was extremely troubled (including two failed suicide attempts). The Dad worked out of state (in the oil industry) and left an unsecured rifle in the home. You can't even believe the number of times that I tried to get through to the guy about the seriousness of the situation and he just wasn't willing to acknowledge the situation and deal with it. The son's girlfriend broke up with him and the boy invited her over to the house where he committed suicide with the rifle in front of her. He could have just as easily killed the girl first. The father was devastated. I was not in the least surprised because I already knew that it was only a matter of time before something like that happened. By that time the son was a legal adult with a father who buried his head in the sand.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)JanMichael
(24,890 posts)Best wishes to you and your family. I remember you well, and with fond memories.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)don't take it so laterally. I am not judging "all other parents."
We DO know the woman allowed her mentally disturbed son to train with the Bushmaster--I didn't think
that fact was debatable. And yes I would judge someone harshly who did that. In fact, I feel we must.
This does not equate to the typical "mistakes" we all make as parents. It is a very different kind of "mistake" to consciously arm your mentally afflicted child with lethal weapons. Very different. About the only thing I can equate it with is a parent who would pour several drinks for their teenager and hand them keys to the car.
I am not suggesting you NOT have pity for the mother. But it is a different perspective from the pity for the innocent victims. The grief and pain that she caused has to be recognized. Parents who do this must go to jail (if they are still living). We must make providing such weapons to others a criminal act in itself.
Please don't misinterpret this point. I have all kinds of compassion for the whole family of the shooter. But I can't help but feel that the mother deserves some degree of blame, and I don't think her death lets her off the hook about that. We have to be able to state the truth about how this occurred, or it will happen again.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)PERIOD.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but a victim can also be held responsible as an enabler. If she had only been wounded and were still alive, she should be going to jail.
If you let the enablers off, you enable the NRA and their ilk. We must enact some laws that protect the innocent better than this.
I have heard today that the mother had MS, and I do know that if she was on steroid therapy, this can lead to dis-inhibition about dangers like this. If so, it still does not change the fact that she enabled the son. There IS no excuse for such faulty judgment. How do you keep these weapons out of the hands of such people? Laws must change, and sending someone to jail for providing access to the murder weapon is a good place to start.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)As I stated upthread, I'm glad the tribute on The Voice included her. I think she is being unfairly demonized, and was a mother who loved her son very much.
John2
(2,730 posts)with you after more information has come out. That was her son, and she probably didn't imagine he would take her life. There is a certain bond between mothers and their own child. She was very protective it seems to me of him. From want I can, she was a nice person but made some mistakes. It doesn't seem like his father spent much time with his son either. She was raising Boys, the best way she knew how probably. If she was seeking help for him and he found out, maybe that is what set him off? I would have never killed my mother and especially it seems like she was the one cared about him the most.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Everything you said.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Women have taken a beating politically this past year. Teachers have, too. It struck me that all of the adults murdered, including Nancy Lanza, were women. The people who the Right have vilified the most this year: women, teachers, and union members are the heroes.
I just wrote basically what my OP says. I'm not being snarky either, but it's a straight forward OP. No subtext or anything.
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #34)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)If she was asleep, how would she know he was taking her guns? Supposedly, he shot her multiple times. He loved his mother?
Why an elementary school people have said? Maybe because most elementary school teachers, and staff, are women (mothers)? The middle and hs would have had far more male staff.
All the adults killed where women. Weren't the majority of children girls? Just a coincidence?
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Response to HockeyMom (Reply #88)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)unbelievable I know, but true:
others attacked feminism: the men saving women was "proof" that men are braver than women, and thus feminism's claim of equality is a slander. (no mention of the dude who sped off in his car leaving his girlfriend and child in the theater)
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)I almost put that in my OP, but decided not to. There were some threads even on here where that happened, which is why I didn't include it.
Response to Enrique (Reply #36)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)It certainly was. But it's not really surprising or even noteworthy that all of the adults killed were women. In an elementary school, I would guess that the majority of adults present would be females. Elementary Ed doesn't seem to attract as many males, for some reason. This of course does not diminish in any way the bravery of those women, who did whatever they could to protect the children in their charge. They are all heroes, in the truest sense of the word.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...so that is not really surprising.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)also the subject of political insults. Remember Romney's snark about school bus drivers?
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Just greedy public employees, racking up big pensions and belonging to evil unions. Oh, and public schools and teachers suck, so lets have charter schools instead.
I hope the next time teachers go on strike, or a politician says this about any teacher, public employee, or union member, everyone remembers the women who died in Newtown.
Thanks for getting my point!
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)krawhitham
(4,644 posts)Bucky
(54,022 posts)Not to turn up the despair quotient here, but I think "men abusing women" is a description of the human condition.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Which was a nice way of shitting on that.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)14 of the victims were girls or women, one boy was shot in the arm. The shooters were Mitchell Johnson 13 and Andrew Golden 11.
http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/09/11/survivors-victims-of-the-march-1998-west-side-midd/
CANDACE PORTER
"I was his (Mitchell's) girlfriend for 3 days. I thought he was nice at first,
but broke up with him several weeks before the shooting. He began
acting strange, talking big about hurting other boys. He was trouble."
"I wasn't afraid of him when I told him I didn't want to be his girlfriend
anymore.. because "boys don't hit girls."
"I thought he was just talking big again when we heard he'd made
a list of students he planned to kill."
THREATS CLASSMATES DIDN'T BELIEVE
The day before the school shootings -
1998 - March 23 - Mitchell Johnson makes threats about "people dying at school."
Reportedly, he threatens one boy with a knife.
Schoolmates "Mitchell told us "I've got "a lot of killing to do."
Schoolmates "Mitchell said he was "angry at a girl for breaking up with him."
Students "Mitchell said he had a "grudge" against teacher Shannon Wright."
EMMA PITTMAN
"Candace Porter was his ex-girlfriend. He had been making threats that
week that 'If you break up with me I'm going to kill you and I'm going to
kill everybody in this school. I'm sick of getting detention,' stuff like that.
We all thought he was blowing off steam."
Andrew Golden and Mitchell Johnson bragged about "getting even" with other
children, even killing them."
Classmates have heard them brag before, so that no one believes them.
Teachers "No one reported anything to us."
PRINCIPAL KAREN KURTNER
"We had not received any indication or advanced notification prior to this
incident. If any threat had been brought to my attention, it would have been
dealt with appropriately."
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)I remember when it happened.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)and it just stuck in my head. I had a hard time finding the info. The link I posted is quite interesting but very sad. There's page after page from police, teachers, students, parents of students shot and the shooters. I believe the younger is no longer in prison the other has been convicted of drug,larceny and gun charges and is currently incarcerated.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)killed 5 and wounded 5.
He definitely had a thing to kill girls.
fleur-de-lisa
(14,627 posts)he knew there would most likely be few, if any, men there. He wanted to kill as many defenseless people as possible before the police arrived. These cowards go to a location where they are least likely to face any resistance.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Teenagers will also fight back, if possible.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)All the shouting from the right about arming all teachers to prevent school attacks has been overshadowing this point.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Lex
(34,108 posts)Pathetic.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)mainer
(12,022 posts)I wonder if there's a reason he specifically targeted that classroom. Had he approached Soto earlier, and she rebuffed him? Do we know if there was any prior contact between Lanza and any of the younger teachers? I'm trying to find a reason why the school, and that classroom in particular, were his targets.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)All good questions.
It may have just been wholly random. We may not ever know.
JI7
(89,252 posts)amborin
(16,631 posts)Is That All There Is
(15 posts)In the face of certain death the actions of these woman should never be forgotten. Like United 93 they are American Heroes.
As to why, An aggressor usually looks for what they perceive as a soft target to maximize casualties, this coward preyed on these Women and Children because he figured they would not fight back.
In terms of safety for fire arms distance, it has been determined that a person who is 25 feet away,(and closer) can wound and even kill an armed person with a number of various weapons.
For tactics against an ambush; Near- Attack the firing position, Assault through and overwhelm with fire power. Far- Return fire and escape the killing zone to safety.
Now most I know will not have the availability of weapons at their disposal, but use the distances to gage when to fight and when to flee.
The idea of the RFID is okay, but I am not a big fan of Gov't tracking in any form. There could be some electronic interlock for the gun and it's sole user. Where only that person could work the weapon. In having that, they would be able to jam the signal in defined locations and render the weapon useless in Schools, Offices, and other Public Interest Places.
God Rest these Great Woman and Innocent Children. For without them what is a man?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If 90%+ of teachers at this school were men, and thus victims of the shooter, I'm sure we'd respect their courage too.
Iggy
(1,418 posts)The response in "progressive" Bloggo world was off the chart bizzaro and ignorant. there was plenty of talk about how teachers "don't need a union", "teachers don't deserve to make as much as electricians...", blah, blah, blah. Really, folks.. this is what it's come to?
I had to check to make sure I wasn't logged into a freeper site by mistake-- because this is the kind of bullcrap one sees from clownservatives.
Gimme a break. perhaps now that dedicated, respected teachers-- one that gave her life protecting her students, maybe teachers will get the respect they've deserved all along.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)But yes, your point is very valid. The adult educators and staff who died were all women who gave the ultimate sacrifice. They are heroes and deserve all the respect we have to give.