Capitulation is never popular. Or effective.

[kentuck]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/18/1171777/-Capitulation-is-never-popular-Or-effective

<snip>
If President Barack Obama has a flaw, it's his obviously overwhelming desire to appear reasonable and conciliatory and "work together" to find "compromise" and "get things done". Bipartisanly. With a sane, reasonable, conciliatory opposition, that approach would make sense. But after four years of getting slammed by Republicans eager to destroy his presidency, Obama still hasn't learned the lesson. He still thinks he's going to get rewarded for being the "adult in the room." Yeah, everything I've put inside scare quotes is a joke. A bad, painful joke.

So there's nothing better than headlines like this one, in the Washington Post, to deliver the lesson to the White House to, well, just quit being the Capitulator In Chief:

A rough 24 hours for the White House

You see, Obama had drawn a line in the sand, and then—to no one's surprise—ended up capitulating on everything he said he'd never capitulate on.

A few weeks ago, the Obama administration was firm that they wouldn’t budge on tax rates for income above $250,000 and that they wouldn’t budge on the debt ceiling. They’ve since budged on both.

And while Republicans are stupid, even they aren't that stupid.

.....more

[grahamhgreen]

1. Is he capitulating, or has he always been for the plutocrat agenda???

[kentuck]

2. In that case..

It would be deception.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Tell it to all those who would stay home in 2014

[KharmaTrain]

4. So...

We go over the "cliff" on January 1...everyone's taxes rise. There's less in everyone's take home and 1.5 million unemployed drop off the rolls. I guess people here are fine with that happening. Then...we hit the next debt ceiling deal. Few here are looking at that. If a deal isn't worked out there, the government goes broke and closes down. No SS checks, no medicare payments, no VA services...just the bare basics to keep the government operating. Be assured that when this wall is hit, the markets will take a big dive and we could return to the recession/depression of a few short years ago. This is the scenario we face without a compromise.

The founders built a system upon compromise and negotiation. Our recent bloodsport atmosphere in the beltway has made it nearly impossible for governing to happen. So if we're not to have the economy backtrack (and Democrats being blamed) then what do you put on the table? You're not going to be able to ram the agenda through the House and Senate (even if filibuster rules are changed...stay tuned for that big battle...another one we're not really hearing about). There's gotta be some give here...and to get the rushpublicans to agree to raise taxes the Democrats are gonna have to give something...so what gives??

[kentuck]

5. You have a strange idea of "compromise".

[KharmaTrain]

6. I Haven't Proposed A Thing...

...I'm asking a question. One that this President is mulling over right now. So...go for it. You have to give something to get something...what do you give? Or you're ready to assume the responsibility if everyone's taxes rise and we face yet another possibility of a government shutdown that will tank the markets which will mean many will see their savings and property values fall. I'm looking for workable alternatives...ya know...governing...

[kentuck]

7. First of all..

You could pull yourself together and stop the panicky BS about "government shutdown", "tank the markets', "property values fall", etc. You don't know that. That is the RW baloney that is fed you over the media. Nothing is ever supposed to be hard. The best way is always the easiest way. Not!

One thing is for certain, you do not negotiate with terrorists. These Republicans are extortionists.

[KharmaTrain]

12. I'm Just Posing A Question...

We both want to see taxes raise on rushpublicans. No? The only way it happens is if the President can convince 25 or so rushpublicans to vote for such an increase. That's unlikely to happen. So what do you do? I'm asking a question...not taking a position or "fear mongering" or pushing talking points.

Ugly truth is we're still paying off the booooosh years...the wars for profit and the destruction of the middle class through these tax giveaways. There's a fragile recovery going on...not one that I "see in the media" but am seeing in the real world. So...back to the question...if you are going to get the rushpublicans to agree to raise taxes on the rich, what are you willing to deal?

True...you don't negotiate with terrorists...however, you still need 219 votes in the House and at least 61 in the Senate for any legislation to pass and this country to move forward. How do you get those votes? It's Civics 101 here...

[kentuck]

15. Repubs are not going to agree on any tax increases.

Boehner doesn't have the votes.

So, your only choice is to surrender. It doesn't matter what you propose to give up in return. Either you agree to their terms or you get nothing. The choice is yours. What do you do?

[KharmaTrain]

25. If Boner Can't Deliver...

...off the cliffs we go. But at least there's been a good faith effort at trying to resolve the issues. Right now that isn't the case...you still have a negotiations going on...and supposedly we're starting to see pressure being put on the "rank & file" to accept some kind of tax increase. This chess game still has another week or so to play out...and as usual, we'll get some last minute deal that no one on this side or the other side of the sandbox will be happy with...and set up the next "confrontation"...

What would I do? At this point, I've been with Dr. Dean...I'd ride off this first "cliff" on January 1 and let the tax rates return to the Clinton years. After that...it's another story. There's the debt ceiling debate that can lead to a government shutdown... That one does have me concerned. But that's jumping ahead here...

[kentuck]

28. But that sounds like too much work....

We don't won't our Congress or White House to have to get their hands dirty or sweat a little bit....

[sendero]

13. There is little doubt...

.. in my mind that just going "over the cliff" would involve some pain for a lot of people. What is not so clear is that the compromise Obama appears ready to make would actually be better for the average man.

[retread]

9. If you really wish to know the true meaning of a "fiscal cliff" read The Shock Doctrine.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Been There, Read That...

...now back to the question. What do you deal? Or you just let the government shut down?

[kentuck]

11. Unless the Treasury can appropriate emergency funds....

...then it is up to the House of Representatives to fund the government. However, everything does not collapse in one big leap. "Cliff" is a misnomer.

[KharmaTrain]

16. True...

The House holds the power of the purse...something many here seem to not understand. The treasury can't appropriate any funds without getting congressional approval...and again, without getting at least 25 rushpublicans to vote against their leadership, it's not gonna happen.

No...we don't collapse on January 1...as has been pointed out...these are ledges that kick in at various points. Hell...I'm all for making deep cuts into the military...we could easily balance the budget if we eliminated just a fraction of that corporate welfare but there's no way that'll pass either House. So we're back to finding what's gonna get the votes to prevent the government from defaulting....the one cliff that could have some serious consequences.

If we're going to move forward on a stimulus and more other issues the current fiscal mess has to be dealt with. Playing "brinksmanship" is exactly what the rushpublicans are hoping to play...constantly threatening to shut down the government. The President is trying to avoid that from happening...

[kentuck]

18. Let's just say there is gonna to be pain.

The degree of the pain is up to the Republicans in the House of Representatives. Then, it is up to the people to do something about it.

[KharmaTrain]

20. There's The Rub...

Yes...there's going to be pain. My question is where does it come from. Last week people were flying all over the place expecting the medicare age to be raised to 67...that appears not to be the case. This week it's about cutting SS...nothing has been officially proposed but people are certain that President Obama is ready to sell out. It's not quite that black and white.

The irony here is that the "people" who are supposed to do something about it did last November...they left us with a divided government. Getting mad and "punishing" Democrats in 2014 isn't going to make things any better...

[kentuck]

21. A message to the people of the United States:

It's time to pay the piper.

[sendero]

14. There is no collapse or even the prospect..

... .of a collapse of govt. What there IS is a tax rise on everyone that might well suppress economic activity for a time. But it might, overall, be a better deal for the American non-1% population.

[KharmaTrain]

17. No One Said Collapse...

Especially if nothing is done by January 1. I've said previously that I, like Governor Dean and others, have no problems seeing the first "cliff" to happen on January 1...I'm sure we'd all not like to see our taxes raised or more taken from our paychecks, but if it has to be, it is for the best of the country. However...I'm looking further down the road where the congress will have to raise the debt ceiling...if that's not done, the government will run out of money and shut down ala 1995. The government and economy won't collapse but it will take a hit...and could hurt a fragile recovery that is just starting to help people get back on their feet.

[sendero]

22. Ok..

... the debt ceiling issue is a separate one to me, although I am aware Obama is trying to negotiate a 2 year window of no-contest.

I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why Obama plays footsie with the Teafucks on this issue. I would tell them "fine, do what you have to do. If you do this you will cause needless pain to a lot of innocent people and you will have made your point but you will never be elected to anything ever again".

Because that is the truth.

[kentuck]

24. That is what is so difficult to understand?

The President looks totally impotent in not using this as a political hammer against the Repubs?

[sendero]

26. I'm sorry....

.. I don't understand your point. Could you elaborate?

[kentuck]

29. I was responding to this comment of yours:

"I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND why Obama plays footsie with the Teafucks on this issue."

Neither do I.

[rhett o rick]

23. Our founders fought tyranny. It's damn time for us to do the same. No compromise.

Go over the cliff. Then attack the unemployment and a tax break for the middle class. Lower the Medicare age.

Every time we compromise we lose more and more. Every time we give away a small slice of the sausage. Some day we will be holding the string.

We must cut defense spending or that's what will kill us.

[KharmaTrain]

30. I'm All For It...

...but I don't sit in the U.S. House or Senate. Yes...the founders fought against the tyranny of a system where they weren't represented. When it came their turn to govern they created the system we operate under today...one of rule by the majority but with a balance of power so that one branch of government doesn't get too powerful. We saw that balance get way out of whack during the dubya regime...how the lack of compromise led to the fleecing of the treasury and wars for profit. I far prefer the confrontation system we're dealing with now than back to a one party kleptocracy.

For too many in this country, they're lucky to have the string to hold onto and there's a desperate need to reinvest in this country's infrastructure. I'd love to see the corporate welfare system taken down...that, right there, would wipe out the deficit in a hurry. Unfortunately there's neither the votes or the political will for that to happen.

So...while I'm all for everything you've mentioned, the only way I see that happening is if we can somehow hypnotize about 30 or so rushpublicans and make sure Democrats don't get wobbly either. The way to make that sausage bigger (sorry for the visual...LOL)...is to help rebuild the union movement and grassroots organizations...use the people power we saw on display last November to bring a louder voice to the table...

[Comrade_McKenzie]

8. Obama's governing style is the same now as it was on the Harvard Law Review.

Shouldn't be a surprise.

[bigtree]

19. neither is bullshittery

. . . doesn't matter if it comes from someone claiming to represent 'progressivism.'

You know absolutely nothing about what the WH has proposed or are willing to accept outside of what you were told by the media. That same media that regularly lies to us is now being held up by criticisms like yours as purveyors of the gospel truth. What a joke!

And you throw this bull about capitulation out there like it's a forgone conclusion; WITHOUT ANY PROOF AT ALL; NONE OUTSIDE OF THE COMPROMISED PRESS; NONE OUTSIDE OF THE 'DETAILS' PROVIDED BY AN UNNAMED AND UNAFFILIATED SOURCE!

And this is what you hold up as some moral superiority over the President; and presumably over anyone who dares defend or support him. I think your brand of politics is dishonest and quite despicable.

[kentuck]

27. And what has the President said about it??

I'm sure you have his number? He hasn't told us anything differently in the news? Yes, you can question Markos of Daily Kos but his opinion is probably as valid as any you can mention?

[kentuck]

31. In other words, the President's strengths are his weaknesses...

...when confronting this bunch of Tea-bagging Republicans. Reasonable, conciliatory, and bi-partisan will get your ass handed to you on a plate.

(edit: spelling)