Pelosi: "I'm not thrilled" with Obama's fiscal cliff proposal - but it's not a benefit cut

[bigtree]

tweeted by, Talking Points Memo ‏@TPM

Pelosi: "I'm not thrilled" with Obama's fiscal cliff proposal - but it's not a benefit cut http://tpm.ly/12AJy9K

[TDale313]

1. Yes. It. Is. !!!!! n/t

[leftstreet]

2. The 'technical' lying begins n/t

[xchrom]

5. +1

[WorseBeforeBetter]

9. Niiiiice.

[RomneyLies]

38. Ayup. n/t

[HereSince1628]

42. I think politicians refer to it as "careful parsing" n/t

[kentuck]

3. It's not a cut if you do not believe in the concept of "inflation"...

If their present pensions do not go up with inflation, each year they will take a cut. Reality.

[SomethingFishy]

4. Not for her...

The peons thank you for your concern.

[aquart]

6. It damned well is.

[treestar]

7. A lower level of inflation

So would it make any difference - if inflation goes down, then the raise for inflation goes down. I remember the year of the recession in which there no inflation, and no raise, but still accusations of cuts to SS!

[cali]

8. She's lying and it's despicable.

I've read article after article today explaining exactly how it is a benefit cut and substantial one. fuck you, nancy and your tens of millions.

[MjolnirTime]

17. You can't cut what never existed in the first place. Changing the rate of growth is not subtraction.

But I understand why you want to muddy the waters.

[cali]

27. bullshit.

why not educate yourself? Read Ezra Klein:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/18/the-trick-washington-is-using-to-cut-social-security-and-medicare/

More links for you, hon:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/wp/2012/12/17/what-is-chained-cpi/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/18/the-chained-cpi-and-votes-in-the-house.html

My Senator, Bernie Sanders has demonstrated clearly why it's a cut. Who to believe, reputable analysts and Senator Sanders or Pelosi and the likes of YOU?

[marew]

30. Thank you! Accurate post!

[MjolnirTime]

31. I don't need to read all that drivel to know that cutting growth is not cutting benefits.

It is just a curb on the rate that benefits increase. That is fact.

I know you don't care much for this distinction, but it is real.

You cannot explain it away. Neither can Ezra Klein.

I know that must piss you off.

[cali]

35. lol. actually, it amuses me.

that you take pride in your ignorance. you are flat wrong, sweetie.

[MjolnirTime]

39. Prove it then, Buttercup. And this time, try doing it yourself.

I know the point you are trying to make. I just also happen to know that you are fudging the facts to aid your message.
I understand why you are willing to do this.
I just don't buy it. Sorry.

[cali]

44. pumpkin, I provided you with the information that you're too

lazy to read.

Love your imitating my "endearments", honeypie.

[MjolnirTime]

48. I have now read your "information" and the fact remains.

There is a difference between Growth Rate and actual existing benefits.

I think you know this.

Why mislead people by commingling the two concepts??

[cali]

60. you are the one doing the misleading. It's baffling.

It couldn't be clearer that this would be a very real cut. Read the post by DaveCriss in this thread.

[MjolnirTime]

71. Are you saying it is a direct Benefit Cut or a Cut in the Rate of growth?

One is true.
One is false.

Just be honest about that. That's all I'm asking.

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. This is why they mislead. They couldn't beat him, so they're pissed even more now than before.

Make shit up if you can't win in the court of public opinion, nor indeed, at the ballot box. You have to admit this is a pitiful showing for folks who promised to save Soc Sec, end all wars, free Bradley Manning, close Guantanamo, imprison all the bankers, give everyone a brand new home, put all your children through med school, permanently ban fracking, etc. against a guy with an anemic economy, a sometimes sputtering recovery; near 8% unemployment, who is by no means against the use of military action, and he beats the snot out of 'em. Why is that?

Rocky Anderson
Luis J. Rodriguez.....Justice Party.....Vote Total: 42,943......Total Percentage: 0.03%

Roseanne Barr
Cindy Sheehan.......Peace and Freedom Party.....Vote Total: 67,314.......Total Percentage: 0.05%

Jill Stein
Cheri Honkala........Green Party.......Vote Total: 467,011.....Total Percentage: 0.36%

The whole lot of 'em couldn't manage a full 1% COMBINED against this president, so they're trying to exact revenge for their EPIC fail. Don't buy it that these were ever Obama voters, despite their protestations to the contrary. Don't buy it for a minute.

[MjolnirTime]

69. They are incessant. And it's the same shit over and over. Boilerplate anti-Obama jingoism.

Obama, and we by proxy, will continue to triumph despite and in spite of the obstacles.

[davekriss]

52. It is a cut

You are confusing nominal dollars with real dollars. In real terms, chained CPI results in less spending power than you had the previous year. Benefits no longer maintain the same real value. Their value becomes, in reality, less. "Less" means the individual experiences a real cut. The concept is very simple. And very real. It is a political sleight of hand, a trick.

(If you are not aware, the principle of chained CPI works this way: in year 1 your ramshackle efficiency apartment costs $500 a month. On year 2 landlords in aggregate push the rent to $600 per month. You can no longer afford it, so you move to a nice cozy spot under a train trestle, where you pay $0 in rent. CPI-U, which is what is used today, says that housing inflated by 20%. Chained CPI says housing deflated 100%. Sure, I'm being extreme in my example, but I correctly illustrate how Chained CPI works.)

[Enrique]

10. so does this mean, bigtree...

that you have made the transition from denying this proposal to defending it?

[MjolnirTime]

11. Changing the rate of future growth does not cut existing benefits. Pelosi is right.

It's sad that many are willing to throw this fact aside just so they can flail about like Rumplestiltskin and declare that Obama is cutting Social Security.

At least be honest about this, please.

[HiPointDem]

13. it cuts already-scheduled benefits in the year after it's put in place, so yes, it's a lie.

[MjolnirTime]

19. No, you are incorrect. You can't cut benefits that haven't been assigned yet.

No matter how many times you repeat it, changing growth does not take away what is already there.

Quit being obtuse.

[HiPointDem]

25. hair-splitting. cutting the cpi formula cuts benefits. it *does* take away purchasing power

that's 'already there' within a matter of years.

you go ahead & try to sell that crap. people know when their purchasing power is cut, no matter how you dress it up in weasel words.

[MjolnirTime]

29. You call the truth "Hair-splitting". Why? Because you know you are spreading a falsehood.

You don't care about informing people of the facts. You just want to whip them up into a frenzy with your hyperbole and half-truths.

We've seen all this before. And Obama has persevered.

[Vattel]

50. For crying out loud, it all depends on what the baseline is.

It cuts future benefits relative to the baseline of how much people would receive without the change. It doesn't cut benefits relative to the baseline of how much people receive today. This is not rocket science.

edited for spelling

[HiPointDem]

72. actually, it's the opposite.

[progressoid]

41. Oh that will be a great comfort to those not receiving those benefits in the future.

I'll be sure to tell my parents that next week.

Merry Christmas!!

[doc03]

47. The average SS check will be more than $50 a month smaller in ten years. Tell someone trying

to live on SS alone that's not a cut, it is changing the rate of growth. Another thing a lot of retirees receive pensions and very few give any COLA increase. So the average retiree will be far more than $50 behind over ten years when you consider how inflation eats up their pensions.

[MjolnirTime]

49. Do you deny the truth of what I said?

I understand the point some are making, but spreading falsehoods is no way to prove your case.

Many of the loudest voices around here don't care if what they say is true if it gives them a chance to undercut Obama. That's damned sad.

[doc03]

58. What you are saying is double speak. You tell me what you would have said

if "W" had said we are just slowing the growth, it's not a cut. If your SS check has $50 less buying power a month it's a cut.

[HiPointDem]

12. lie.

[Eddie Haskell]

14. Then she should be doing the negotiating!

Why should the President be doing her job?

[Autumn]

15. Nancy, before you piss in my ear and tell me it's raining please understand this.

While both are wet, one is very warm and yellow and the other is cool and refreshing. And I am damn well smart enough to know the difference.

[HiPointDem]

16. nancy pelosi is saying this is obama's proposal. again, coming from the democrats -- so would

all the 'moderators' here please can the "this is a republican talking point" BS?

this is obama's proposal.

[Kelvin Mace]

36. I am constantly amazed at how

people can have six pounds of steaming dog shit stuck under their nose and refuse to accept that it exists.

[HiPointDem]

70. yeah, me too, dude.

As some progressives push back, Pelosi embraces Obama cliff offer
By Carrie Dann and Mark Murray, NBC News

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Tuesday that she backs President Barack Obama's newest proposal to avert the fiscal cliff, defying some progressive Democrats who object to an included cost-of-living calculation that could effectively cut entitlement benefits to Social Security recipients.

Asked by NBC's Andrea Mitchell if she believes she can rally enough Democratic support to pass the White House's plan, Pelosi responded "Yes, I do."

"I believe the president has demonstrated great leadership in what he put forth," she said, arguing that the White House plan would help avert the cliff, create consumer confidence and avoid a credit rating downgrade.

Pelosi pushed back on progressive opponents of one compromise measure that would modify the way cost-of-living increases are calculated to determine Society Security payments. While some in the Democratic Party say that the change -- called "chained CPI" -- would effectively cut Social Security payments, the minority leader said Tuesday that the effects on poor recipients would be minimal once all of the specifics of the deal are worked out.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15997131-as-some-progressives-push-back-pelosi-embraces-obama-cliff-offer?chromedomain=nbcpolitics&lite

so is pelosi part of the republican conspiracy to discredit obama too?

[aandegoons]

18. holy shit it's a done deal.

Well ..... We are reaping the benefits of the two party system now. Good cop bad cop and all that.


10% from grandma and 1.5% from the rich.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Nancy's worth 35 million dollars. She said Bush was innocent of crimes.

She's absolutely saying what she wants to sell, but she's lying. Flat out, full tilt lying about a few dollars for the average American while she sits on a 35 Million dollar hoard of personal wealth. A person that rich should be ashamed to be going after this money.
The average person's COLA on SS next year? $21. That, bigtree, is what you are going after. As is 35 Million Dollar Nance.

[HiPointDem]

23. per wikipedia, $58 mill net worth.

Nancy Pelosi is among the richest members of Congress,[111] with an estimated net worth of approximately $58 million, the 12th highest estimated net worth in Congress, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.[112]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Pelosi


as she said, she can 'live with' cuts to SS.

[HiPointDem]

21. I think chained cpi should be used on nancy's investment portfolio. for her $60 mill in net worth.

[woo me with science]

22. How timely.

How propaganda works to change our expectations of the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022033331

[ProSense]

24. Here's what everyone is forgetting:

"Social Security is not currently a driver of the deficit. That's an economic fact."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022028946

Yup, that was the official WH line.

The other problem with Pelosi's statement is are these key points from the WH:

MR. CARNEY: Well, let’s be clear about one thing: The President didn’t put it on the table. This is something that Republicans want. And it is --

Q But the Republicans --

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Sam’s question, I’d appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so it’s not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the President’s proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

But let’s be clear, this is something that the Republicans have asked for, and as part of an effort to find common ground with the Republicans, the President has agreed to put this in his proposal -- agreed to have this as part of a broad deficit reduction package that includes asking the wealthiest to pay more so that we can achieve the kind of revenue targets that are necessary for a balanced approach to deficit reduction

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/12/18/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-12182012.

It's outrageous that Social Security is being included in these negotiations, but Carney seems to be stressing that the Republicans brought this to the table. Why the President went there is anyone's guess. The fact that he is vowing to protect the "most vulnerable," means that something negative is about to occur.

Another fact: Boehner was never going to agree to the proposal.

In any case, the offer has sparked outrage, more so than when Republicans were pushing it. No one wants it, not the American people, not the AARP, not the unions. The whole thing is unnecessary and absurd.

They're negotiating based on deficit reduction, and going in the opposite direction of the largest proposal, the President's $1.6 trillion offer. In the process, they're including Social Security, a program that has nothing to do with the deficit?

This is pure: WTF?

[Uncle Joe]

37. Inflation is about to incur big time, that's how they plan on reducing the debt, the clues

have already been given.

They're going to inflate the economy as a means of reducing the % of the national debt to the GDP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022030455

The technical details are pretty dull. The Fed announced that it intends to keep its key interest rate at zero until unemployment drops to 6.5%, the first time it’s ever set a target for employment. It also signaled that it will tolerate inflation as high as 2.5%, above its stated goal of 2%. And it extended its “QE3” bond-buying program to hold down long-term interest rates. What it means is that Bernanke and his fellow inflation doves have won their argument with the hawks, and the Fed is stepping on the accelerator instead of riding the brakes. After three years of doing a wonderful job of maintaining stable prices while doing a terrible job of maximizing employment, the Fed finally seems determined to take its dual mandate seriously. As Bernanke admitted in his press conference, the Fed has consistently overestimated the pace of growth since the recovery began in 2009.

[russspeakeasy]

26. This bottom feeder appreciates your concern.

[forestpath]

28. Liar. Don't piss on me and tell me it's rain.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. The caving begins!!!

Our Vichy Dems begin their elaborate surrender dance.

[Poll_Blind]

34. The Dance of the Dry Powder. nt

PB

[Uncle Joe]

43. It begins around the 1:52 mark.

[TheKentuckian]

66. It isn't a cave when it is the plan. I think it is past time to stop pretending

these folks actually want to do the right thing and are just to weak and hamstrung.

[doc03]

33. Yes it is!

[RomneyLies]

40. It all depends on what the definition of "cut" is.

Yup, the American people have been thrown under the bus to insure rich people continue getting richer.

I'm looking forward to exploring the wondrous flavors of Little Friskies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Yes, yes it is

[woo me with science]

46. What a brazen fucking lie. nt

[ananda]

51. How about: It's unacceptable and I won't support it!

..

[MotherPetrie]

53. YOU'RE not thrilled, Nancy? Imagine how retirees like me feel!

[unblock]

54. if it walks like a duck,....

[BeyondGeography]

55. What does she know?

(Sarcasm)

I don't know why everyone's screaming. We're going off the cliff.

[MannyGoldstein]

56. Really? She really said that?

Oy gevalt.

[DJ13]

57. Not for her, she doesnt need Social Security, she's wealthy

This is a "let them eat cake" moment.

[Marr]

59. They really seem to think we're idiots. /nt

[williesgirl]

61. BS - now she's sounding like a repuke. Shame on her. Stand up to him

on behalf of all Americans, Nancy. do the right thing and NOW.

[patrice]

62. You created this situation, Nancy, with your 2010 Keep-Bush-Tax-Cuts-for-the-Middle-Class Theater

Pelosi, sister to Arianna the Prancing "Leftie" Pony Fairy; that makes her Nancy the Nifty Numeral Nymph.

Good job girls!

[aandegoons]

63. Doublethink

[indepat]

64. No Congressman Pelosi, it is tantamount to a very flagrant and ugly tax increase, tho

hidden, on the poorest and most frail among us to subsidize those earning $250,000+ who will now not have their taxes increased through any grand bargain reached. This is so diabolically cruel and inhumane that it will forever enshrine any Democrat who is party thereto as being very far to the right of center.

[Larkspur]

65. The WH and her Congressional colleagues must be feeling the heat from activists and pro-SS caucus

Nancy is trying to give cover to Obama and Dems who will support chained CPI cuts,
Not going to work.
Keep putting the pressure on them.

[buzzroller]

67. Don't repeat Republican Lies

It should be known by all Democratic politicians that it is not a good idea to repeat or reinforce republican lies, even if you are trying to give the President cover.

Are we now stuck with chained-CPI cuts to social security even though the offer was rejected. I fear we are.

[RandiFan1290]

73. lol