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kentuck

(115,047 posts)
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:38 PM Yesterday

I am beginning to believe that Epstein was murdered...

He knew too much.

The note that was mailed to Larry Nasser after his death seems very fishy to me. It was mailed and returned after his death. In it, he says he is taking the short road home. Nasser was the former Olympics coach that had been convicted of sex crimes against the Olympic girl athletes.

Also, we learn today that there were 10 others that were indicted and named in the documents released today. But, all that evidence was buried during the last months of Trump's first Administration. His Justice Department took care of business for him. We knew nothing about this part of the Epstein case?

Also, there have been several reports that the photos of Epstein's suicide were faked. I never thought much about that until now. Maybe they were "faked"?

And the note may have been written by "someone" else to make it appear that he had committed suicide, when in fact, he was murdered.

There is so much information that has come out today, we should be very wary about all of it.

89 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I am beginning to believe that Epstein was murdered... (Original Post) kentuck Yesterday OP
Some of us have suspected this from day one. Irish_Dem Yesterday #1
His brother believes he was murdered. kentuck Yesterday #2
We know it is at least 50/50 probability. Irish_Dem Yesterday #9
Bill Barr would know. travelingthrulife 9 hrs ago #64
Exactly. And Epstein had many secrets about the Barr family. Irish_Dem 5 hrs ago #72
I assumed from the start it was murder buzzycrumbhunger Yesterday #7
I have never thought he committed suicide. yellow dahlia 23 hrs ago #38
Yes and yes. Irish_Dem 15 hrs ago #47
Also Ivanna's death from blunt force trauma from falling down stairs. Irish_Dem 14 hrs ago #50
I hadn't known about Ivana's death being suspicious yellow dahlia 9 hrs ago #62
I thought it was questionable when it happened. Irish_Dem 9 hrs ago #63
I didn't know about Ivana's involvement MustLoveBeagles 9 hrs ago #65
I read it here on DU. Irish_Dem 7 hrs ago #68
I've been suspicious all along, also. Prof. Toru Tanaka 5 hrs ago #70
Guards went AWOL. Video machine didn't work or video is missing. Irish_Dem 5 hrs ago #73
the guards asleep the same time? or put to sleep after drinking something. will never know. CarolinaNC 4 hrs ago #82
His death was suspicious because it was so timely and convenient for others involved. As more details come out..... FadedMullet Yesterday #3
Bill Barr visited NYC before Epstein died. Who, if anyone, did he meet with RockRaven Yesterday #4
Didn't Barr meet with Epstein while he was in prison? kentuck Yesterday #5
No proof of that specifically AZJonnie Yesterday #11
Coincidences... 2naSalit Yesterday #6
Jeezus, you can't make this shit up. It was murder, alright Joinfortmill Yesterday #19
Wow, so much out there in the open. Journalism is dead. still-prayin4rain 4 hrs ago #76
And Jean Luc Brunel, and Virginia Roberts Giuffre.... Pachamama Yesterday #8
Guiffre does not make sense to include here IMHO AZJonnie Yesterday #14
A lot of suicides. yellow dahlia 23 hrs ago #39
Or out of a window in Moscow. NT Bohunk68 14 hrs ago #51
Epstein didn't kill himself. flvegan Yesterday #10
I saw a joke story this morning catchnrelease Yesterday #13
LOL, that's good. flvegan Yesterday #32
I absolutely agree with you. MorbidButterflyTat 21 hrs ago #45
I totally believe this. Scrivener7 Yesterday #12
he hung himself with a paper sheet ? Nigrum Cattus Yesterday #15
That whole two guards fell asleep fujiyamasan Yesterday #34
And the video cameras stopped working at the same time. Irish_Dem 15 hrs ago #49
Yeah, a lot of convenient coincidences. Dave Bowman 4 hrs ago #77
Coincidences take a lot of planning. Irish_Dem 4 hrs ago #79
I've always believed he was murdered. nt Raine Yesterday #16
Me, too. Joinfortmill Yesterday #17
LOL Skittles Yesterday #18
Duh! It was just damn silly that he hanged himself ashredux Yesterday #20
And a mark from hanging would be under the chin, not near the collar bone. Trueblue Texan 2 hrs ago #89
Thinking the same, Kentuck. OAITW r.2.0 Yesterday #21
I never had a doubt. tavernier Yesterday #22
Yes. And the only reason Maxwell is still above ground is..... paleotn Yesterday #23
Except the FBI is saying the letter is fake. EdmondDantes_ Yesterday #24
Do we trust this FBI? mwooldri Yesterday #26
I trust them to do something sleazy. GoCubsGo 13 hrs ago #55
Why would I trust anything coming from the FBI headed by a fucking idiot like Patel? fujiyamasan Yesterday #35
Ivana "fell" down the stairs around the same time wolfie001 Yesterday #25
Beginning? nt BWdem4life Yesterday #27
Trump acts like a mafia godfather. Emile Yesterday #28
Never believed Epstein committed suicide Picaro Yesterday #29
Yup. yellow dahlia 23 hrs ago #41
I have suspected this all along. evolves Yesterday #30
I've not doubted it for a second relayerbob Yesterday #31
Is water wet? usonian Yesterday #33
It was returned after his death, I don't think it was sent after his death/ Bev54 Yesterday #36
I don't think that's correct. People are pointing to a 'postmark' - and that does not stopdiggin 23 hrs ago #42
I have been pretty convinced it was a hit - TBF 23 hrs ago #37
I always thought it went something like this. Iggo 23 hrs ago #40
Larry Nasser was the Olympics team physician. pacalo 22 hrs ago #43
I never thought he killed himself. He Luciferous 22 hrs ago #44
His timely death was all too convenient to be suicide. GoodRaisin 18 hrs ago #46
K&R spanone 15 hrs ago #48
Duh! malaise 13 hrs ago #53
🤣 spanone 13 hrs ago #54
I'm no FBI investigator, but... Mike Nelson 14 hrs ago #52
Julie K. Brown says the handwriting, wording and spelling don't resemble Epstein's. She's the one who actually Scrivener7 13 hrs ago #58
Agreed... Mike Nelson 12 hrs ago #59
Definitely! Magnitudes more important if you believe it wasn't him. Scrivener7 11 hrs ago #61
I'm kind of amazed that you haven't been swarmed by cheerleaders Orrex 13 hrs ago #56
... Prairie Gates 13 hrs ago #57
If that's true we will find out... unless only one person orchestrated the whole thing. JohnnyRingo 11 hrs ago #60
Epstein did not commit suicide LetMyPeopleVote 8 hrs ago #66
A lot of us thought so from the beginning. Sure got called lots of names though. Crunchy Frog 7 hrs ago #67
While there is lot of craziness around Epstein's death, I think he had plenty of reasons to kill himself Buckeyeblue 7 hrs ago #69
I didn't believe it was suicide TommieMommy 5 hrs ago #71
Pretty sure you are right. Linda ladeewolf 5 hrs ago #74
Yes, he was murdered. Kind of like telling your heirs you are changing your will the next morning. Scalded Nun 4 hrs ago #75
I found this whole thing fishy from the start. Dave Bowman 4 hrs ago #78
A few b/4 Epstein was getting ready to name names. CarolinaNC 4 hrs ago #80
a few weeks b/4 CarolinaNC 4 hrs ago #81
Epstein had the goods on many, including TACO Don. ProudMNDemocrat 3 hrs ago #83
Good Morning! Akakoji 3 hrs ago #84
Epstein's demise was probably part of a clean-up operation. Aussie105 3 hrs ago #85
I've ALWAYS believed it. B.See 3 hrs ago #86
Im convinced of that. OLDMDDEM 3 hrs ago #87
If you saw the photos of the crime scene, there would be no doubt in your mind he was murdered. Trueblue Texan 2 hrs ago #88

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
1. Some of us have suspected this from day one.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:45 PM
Yesterday

Trump had motive and opportunity.
And would think nothing of killing a friend and business partner to save himsel.

kentuck

(115,047 posts)
2. His brother believes he was murdered.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:50 PM
Yesterday

Epstein must have felt that he could always pull the strings and get out of prison? He had always done it before. But, he was sent to prison during Trump's presidency. With the documents made public today, it looks much more likely that he was murdered.

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
72. Exactly. And Epstein had many secrets about the Barr family.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 04:11 PM
5 hrs ago

Bill Barr's father was the headmaster at an exclusive school in NYC and
he hired Epstein to be a teacher there despite having no degree in anything.
Their relationship has always been suspect.

So Barr had personal and professional motives.
He is one of the people who probably know what happened in that jail cell.

buzzycrumbhunger

(1,607 posts)
7. I assumed from the start it was murder
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:11 PM
Yesterday

… and who’d be most likely to be desperate enough to shut him up that way? The cohort who’s avoided that so far.

yellow dahlia

(4,301 posts)
38. I have never thought he committed suicide.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:35 PM
23 hrs ago

It doesn't fit his personality profile.

And plus - who did it benefit?

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
50. Also Ivanna's death from blunt force trauma from falling down stairs.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:31 AM
14 hrs ago

It is had been rumored she was involved in the pedo ring, she and Ghislaine Maxwell
interviewed girls. It was said Ivanna was going to be questioned by the police.

yellow dahlia

(4,301 posts)
62. I hadn't known about Ivana's death being suspicious
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 11:48 AM
9 hrs ago

until recently. On DU of course.

It never stops.

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
63. I thought it was questionable when it happened.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 11:52 AM
9 hrs ago

Especially when Trump dumped her in a grave on one of his golf courses.

But yes, more info is coming out about her role in the pedo ring.

The autopsy said blunt force trauma to her torso was cause of death.
How hard do you have to fall to cause that kind of damage and death?

Maybe it is all legit, but we at least have to ask the question especially in
light of some of the recent reports.

Yes YD it never stops.
The depravity has no bottom.

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
68. I read it here on DU.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 01:51 PM
7 hrs ago

It must be true.

But seriously. I think this is new information just coming out.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Prof. Toru Tanaka

(2,901 posts)
70. I've been suspicious all along, also.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 04:06 PM
5 hrs ago

Especially after finding out that both guards tasked to watch him fell asleep and a portion of the prison video of his cell is missing.

Irish_Dem

(79,410 posts)
73. Guards went AWOL. Video machine didn't work or video is missing.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 04:12 PM
5 hrs ago

No formal investigation was done.
I am not sure if any evidence was bagged or not.

FadedMullet

(644 posts)
3. His death was suspicious because it was so timely and convenient for others involved. As more details come out.....
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:56 PM
Yesterday

........about Trump, Mar-a-Largo, the files, other participants (both victims and old man pedophiles) and hush money, the suspicions will solidify into hard facts and headlines.

RockRaven

(18,628 posts)
4. Bill Barr visited NYC before Epstein died. Who, if anyone, did he meet with
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:58 PM
Yesterday

that was not on his official published schedule? Might be relevant given that Barr was ultimately responsible, as AG and head of the DOJ, both for Epstein's presence in that jail and for the jail itself.

And notice that Barr and Epstein had a connection independent of The Dotard. Barr's father was headmaster of an exclusive/expensive NYC private school that hired Epstein -- who had no college degree and no teaching experience -- to teach math to teens. Epstein then gained a reputation for inappropriately socializing with his teen students, quelle surprise. Also around the time of the hire, Barr's father published a horny/pervy sci-fi novel whose plot involved child sex slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Relations

What strange coincidences...

AZJonnie

(2,712 posts)
14. Guiffre does not make sense to include here IMHO
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:58 PM
Yesterday

She was by far and away the most outspoken and threatening victim out there, and she sued people and testified and gave interviews over like 15 years. Seems doubtful she was suddenly a big concern in 2025. If she was going to be whacked, it logically would've occurred long before that

Also, her SIL has said her suicide tracks with her circumstances:

Her sister‑in‑law Amanda Roberts told People that in the months before her death, Giuffre was in significant mental and physical pain, dealing with a serious accident, a separation from her husband, a restraining order that kept her from seeing her children, and long‑term trauma; she said that in the end “the weight of all of her burdens was too much to carry.”


I would also add, based on the memoir she endured significant guilt over her own role in the recruitment of underage girls for JE/GM to prey upon. Combined with all the above her sister mentioned, and knowing the sexual abuse started when she was 12 (way before Epstein)? I have to say I'm quite unsure *I* could endure all that.

Brunel and Epstein, who knows for sure. But their lives were basically over, they were toast. And Brunel was in the clink awaiting trial for 14 months, during which time there were "several" previous suicide attempts. One could imagine depression setting in pretty badly over 14 months (not that I feel sorry for that asshole!).

Epstein died within 24 hours of the release of the files from the 2015 Maxwell defamation case, where Guiffre's testimony nailed his ass to the cross. That timing certainly makes sense for someone offing themselves. That said, I'd be unsurprised if he wasn't "allowed to" and given the tools/means. Perhaps by order of Trump. Perhaps that's one of the things he's terrified might come out?

flvegan

(65,684 posts)
10. Epstein didn't kill himself.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:28 PM
Yesterday

He had mountains of "get out of jail free" cards and I believe his appeal to get out on bail was still pending.

I'd sooner believe he was still alive and in hiding/exile somewhere before I believed he killed himself. I'd sooner believe he was in witness protection before I believed he killed himself.

catchnrelease

(2,128 posts)
13. I saw a joke story this morning
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:57 PM
Yesterday

I think it was on Bluesky but not sure now. It was saying 'Epstein Island sold to Mid East businessman' named Haadid Nahikil Muhssef. (I confess it took me a minute to catch that joke) and a photo of a man with a turban(?) and long white beard. But the face was very clearly Jeffrey Epstein under the 'disguise'. Alluding to just what you said--he's in witness protection somewhere, not dead.
I found a link---
[link:https://genesiustimes.com/epstein-island-sold-to-wealthy-middle-eastern-businessman-haadid-nahkil-muhssef/

MorbidButterflyTat

(4,104 posts)
45. I absolutely agree with you.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 11:51 PM
21 hrs ago

His "clients" are super wealthy and wouldn't want to give up what Epstein supplied.

His supposedly dead body lying on a gurney for the cameras, just happened to conveniently reveal his face. If dead, the sheet would be over his face.

Wealthy pedophiles have no reason to kill themselves. He could be on any number of yachts in any sea currently indulging in his favorite pastimes. Girls and women are trafficked every day.

Nigrum Cattus

(1,200 posts)
15. he hung himself with a paper sheet ?
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:01 PM
Yesterday

both guards just so happen to have fallen asleep
during that short period of time ?

fujiyamasan

(1,128 posts)
34. That whole two guards fell asleep
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:24 PM
Yesterday

Sounds like the plot hole out of a really dumb movie. No one would buy it.

ashredux

(2,847 posts)
20. Duh! It was just damn silly that he hanged himself
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:38 PM
Yesterday

And what a coincidence, that the video had a little bit of glitch and didn’t show the fact that someone came in and hang the mother fucker… it did not take Colombo to figure this one out

Trueblue Texan

(4,162 posts)
89. And a mark from hanging would be under the chin, not near the collar bone.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:53 PM
2 hrs ago

Further if he hung himself with a sheet, it wouldn’t make a thin mark on his neck, like a wire would, which is the mark he had on his lower neck. No way he killed himself.

OAITW r.2.0

(31,339 posts)
21. Thinking the same, Kentuck.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:45 PM
Yesterday

Epstein died while Trump was President and Barr ran the DOJ. The stuff we are learning about Trump's connection to Epstein now, the more I think that Trump needed him gone.

tavernier

(14,218 posts)
22. I never had a doubt.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:46 PM
Yesterday

He had so much compiled against every person who was involved for or against him. I still think that there are more copies than what they know of, and which they redact religiously.

paleotn

(21,415 posts)
23. Yes. And the only reason Maxwell is still above ground is.....
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:46 PM
Yesterday

she's got a "dead woman" switch. They touch her and everyone blows up.

EdmondDantes_

(1,311 posts)
24. Except the FBI is saying the letter is fake.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:51 PM
Yesterday

Maybe before making up our minds we should see if the letter is true, if it's not who faked it, why it was in the files, etc.

GoCubsGo

(34,637 posts)
55. I trust them to do something sleazy.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:10 AM
13 hrs ago

Like planting a fake letter, that will muddy up things, in hopes that people will start losing trust, and start believing the whole "hoax" thing. At the very least, this is a distraction.

fujiyamasan

(1,128 posts)
35. Why would I trust anything coming from the FBI headed by a fucking idiot like Patel?
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:25 PM
Yesterday

The agency is compromised.

wolfie001

(6,963 posts)
25. Ivana "fell" down the stairs around the same time
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:53 PM
Yesterday

Coincidence? Rumor has it that a couple of russkis witnessed the whole incident.

Picaro

(2,323 posts)
29. Never believed Epstein committed suicide
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:12 PM
Yesterday

Simple details made suicide impossible for me to believe. First he was as much a narcissist as Trump. Narcissists rarely kill themselves.

Second, he knew too much about Trump while he had all the resources available to the President of the United States. Think through that for just a moment.

Then the strange issues with the guards who were not there and the cameras that were expertly disabled for just the right time period.

Then the motive. Epstein had the goods on Trump and probably telegraphed that to him.

The autopsy revealed things that wouldn’t have been there in a simple jailhouse self hanging.

It goes on and on.

This is a demonstration of Occam’s Razor. When everything is brushed away and only one thing remains then that must be the truth.

This is a very Sherlockian story.

When I saw that Epstein had said in an email that Trump was the dog who didn’t bark I almost spit my coffee across the room. How unintentionally apropos.

But how normal that this instinctively Machiavellian man Epstein would see what Trump’s moves would be and that he was a walking dead man.

evolves

(5,726 posts)
30. I have suspected this all along.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:14 PM
Yesterday

He DID know too much and was probably prepared to spill it.

Not only is donnie a rapist and a pedophile, he’s likely also a murderer.

stopdiggin

(14,919 posts)
42. I don't think that's correct. People are pointing to a 'postmark' - and that does not
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 10:21 PM
23 hrs ago

indicate/refer to a 'return' date.

(In any event - such an obvious and incredible 'hack job' - that it never warranted any consideration in the first place. I would be embarrassed pointing to this as evidence or 'indicating' anything at all.)

TBF

(35,458 posts)
37. I have been pretty convinced it was a hit -
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:31 PM
23 hrs ago

and I don't think Ivana's "fall" was "accidental" either.

GoodRaisin

(10,699 posts)
46. His timely death was all too convenient to be suicide.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 02:45 AM
18 hrs ago

Never have believed that. Much more likely to be murder, with Krasnov having the most to gain by Epstein being dead.

Mike Nelson

(10,894 posts)
52. I'm no FBI investigator, but...
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 07:07 AM
14 hrs ago

... the "letter" is fake, they said. First of all, the postmark is, what did they say, three days after his death? Means nothing, to me... are there post offices in prisons, to officially postmark letters? I had no idea! Why do prisoners get their mail postmarked so quickly and efficiently? AND, okay... their "handwriting experts" say it wasn't Epstein's writing. THEN, considering how the letter reads - the subject and details - they should know who the "forger" is, by now. I would have ordered DNA testing IMMEDIATELY. Letters are like crime scenes... licking the stamp, the flap, and whatever is inside!

Scrivener7

(58,151 posts)
58. Julie K. Brown says the handwriting, wording and spelling don't resemble Epstein's. She's the one who actually
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:26 AM
13 hrs ago

took him down, and to do that she studied him for years.

I tend to accept her opinion. YMMV.

Orrex

(66,600 posts)
56. I'm kind of amazed that you haven't been swarmed by cheerleaders
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:14 AM
13 hrs ago

Generally when someone dares to question Trump's official story re: Epstein's "suicide," a throng of finger-waggers appears to scold, belittle, and humiliate.

JohnnyRingo

(20,422 posts)
60. If that's true we will find out... unless only one person orchestrated the whole thing.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 09:41 AM
11 hrs ago

I believe such a plot would involve coconspirators at many levels, right down to other prisoners and individual guards on duty that night.
I also believe there's more to this story than what we know so far.

A secret is only good until two people know it and it's just a matter of time before someone comes forward

Buckeyeblue

(6,168 posts)
69. While there is lot of craziness around Epstein's death, I think he had plenty of reasons to kill himself
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 02:06 PM
7 hrs ago

Spending the remainder of his life in prison as a sex offender is a big reason. Why would anyone want to continue living under such circumstances?

But I'm continually amazed at the people facing life in prison or even the death penalty who turn themselves in or allow themselves to be taken into custody without a fight.

I guess I'm just amazed at the people who are obedient and freely comply when their lives are effectively over.

Linda ladeewolf

(1,090 posts)
74. Pretty sure you are right.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 04:22 PM
5 hrs ago

Also feel pretty sure that the DOJ is hiding billionaires in the Epstein files, since those are the only people that matter to them. I also think some of the republicans are learning they will never be free if they don’t bring this stuff to light. I’m hoping for a bale of straw for Christmas, not coal.

Scalded Nun

(1,591 posts)
75. Yes, he was murdered. Kind of like telling your heirs you are changing your will the next morning.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 04:49 PM
4 hrs ago

The jail cell just did not have a balcony to fall from.

ProudMNDemocrat

(20,561 posts)
83. Epstein had the goods on many, including TACO Don.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 05:40 PM
3 hrs ago

Which made sense. Someone or someones wanted him GONE permanently!

Akakoji

(471 posts)
84. Good Morning!
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:02 PM
3 hrs ago

That's the entire point of the pogrom. You either fly out of the window, or off yourself in jail because suddenly you feel remorse. What, you don't believe that?

Aussie105

(7,543 posts)
85. Epstein's demise was probably part of a clean-up operation.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:18 PM
3 hrs ago

Someone a long time ago remarked Trump was a boil on the bum of American society.

Turns out there are a lot of boils on a lot of bums.

It's a boys' club, above and beyond the moral code and laws of normal men, making up their own rules.

Who and how many in that club, is still to be discovered - if ever.

This is the Watergate cover-up on steroids.

Trueblue Texan

(4,162 posts)
88. If you saw the photos of the crime scene, there would be no doubt in your mind he was murdered.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:50 PM
2 hrs ago

Just google it,

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