A dark topic, but...the Holocaust wasn't the bloodiest event of WWII, by far.

[sir pball]

The Holocaust, including non-Jews (disabled, Romani, Slavs, &c.) killed around 11-12 million…6 million Jews plus assorted others.

The Russians lost, between soldiers and civilians…around twenty-seven million people.

That's about 8% of the entire US population.

I don't really wonder why Russia and Germany hate each other to this day.

(posting this here because I was told to)

[RockRaven]

1. China also suffered twenty-something million dead (estimates vary) from '37-'45.

[LexVegas]

2. Is it a contest? nt

[purr-rat beauty]

4. It kinda is...

...in the eyes of those who can cause so much carnage

Human Rights
Livable Conditions
War Prioritizing
Influence
Crime
Peace

They have it all under their thumb and want to outdo the others

[sir pball]

5. No, and that's exactly my point.

The Nazis killed…literal tens of millions of people in total, and while their specific targeting of Jews must never be forgotten, the broader monstrosity of their regime must also never be ignored.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Thank you for this post, my dear sir pball . . .

I did not know that the Russians had lost so many people. That's a staggering amount.

[Iggo]

6. That's an AND, not an OR.

[sarisataka]

7. Is there a point to this?

I could speculate but figured I should ask first

[B.See]

8. Call me stupid, but

Though all of it horrendous, I for one think there's a DIFFERENCE between mass casualties suffered by people defending their homeland and the deliberate sick minded, hate inspired EXTERMINATION of a people solely because of their race, religion, colour or creed. But hey, that's just me.

[sir pball]

20. I'm not saying it was morally equivalent.

Of course the Nazi atrocities were far, far worse by their specific targeting of vulnerable groups.

But losing the entire population of the greater New York metropolitan area to the Nazis isn't really something to ignore.

[B.See]

33. No, it isn't. Rather

it's a testimony to those who gave full measure to fight a great evil.

[meadowlander]

37. In what context do you think people are ignoring it?

[sir pball]

38. There are people in this very post

Who are commenting they had no idea how horrifically bloody the Eastern Front was.

It's not something that's widely taught in America, for very obvious reasons.

[meadowlander]

41. Sure but what's the relevance for discussing that in a forum set up to discuss current US politics?

I could sit here all day long posting facts about New Zealand history that I bet most people on this forum don't know but I think it would be fair for people to ask me why I am bringing that up in this moment and in this place.

[sir pball]

43. Well, for one I was told to post it here, and two, GD is not "current US politics", it's "General Discussion".

I originally posted it in the Lounge, but they shot it down and said it should be here.

Which does make sense. DU is a big tent, "General Discussion" is just that – if you want politics-specific forums I know we have them for every state, but I'm not sure there's a national one.

Said as someone who's been here since 2005.

[Kaleva]

9. Add to that the many millions Stalin killed

Either directly or indirectly.


Mao caused the deaths of as many as 45 million Chinese during The Great Leap Foward

[Kaleva]

10. Ethnic Russian losses were about 14 million during WWII

The numbers you gave are Soviet losses which include millions of non-Russians.

[Xolodno]

11. Does it really matter?

Back then, Soviet = Russian in the thinking. Much like Trump tries to differentiate white people as being only US Citizens and people of color are not...with a few exceptions.

And of course Hitler was Austrian, not German and may have been part Jewish. But in the end...

[Kaleva]

14. It shows that Russians were very liberal in their sacrificing

the non Russian subjects of their empire.

[Xolodno]

19. That's a very generalized statement that frankly isn't true.

For example, The Holodomor was initiated by none other that Joseph Stalin, by today's definition would be Georgian. I get it's fashionable to blame Russia these days for it, but in reality, the anger is misplaced.

Another, the Afghanistan invasion was approved by a Politburo that was predominately Ukrainian. It's one of the reasons why the Taliban is willing to let bygones be bygones in establishing relations as the Russian faction wasn't on board with the invasion.

Cuban missile crisis, Khrushchev was Ukrainian.

As far as sacrificing non Russian subjects, Tsar Nicholas II seemed like an equal opportunity butcher.

Now you could blame the progrom's on the Russia, but then you have to implicate most of Europe as well.

Again, I get it, it's easy to generalize and place blame. But when you dig in further, it's not so black and white. This is complicated history, there is no one blanket reason that will cover it all. And don't get me started on Jewish history of two thousand years ago.

[Kaleva]

34. Which supports my point

That the statements made in the OP aren’t true

[Xolodno]

13. Many thought WW1 was the epitome and would stop such savage aggression.

The propensity of humans to hate and be angry for no justifiable reason however, knows, no bounds. Much of what happened was centuries in the making and no one tried to diffuse it. If anything, some fanned it further so it could bring them to power. If there are aliens out there watching us, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to contact us.

[malaise]

15. Correct

Lots of otger myths prevail to this day.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. Adding the millions in Ukraine who died of starvation because

Russia confiscated the harvest of the country to feed its troops.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. hey fyi this kind of score-keeping is often found on paths to Holocaust denialism and/or basic antisemitism and is not a

great look

[Iggo]

18. It's also how the nazis keep their victims fighting each other instead of fighting the nazis.

Yes “keep”, not “kept.”

[sir pball]

22. Nah, thanks.

The Shoah was the worst crime in human history and I am not trying to, and would not, ever deny that.

But the Eastern Front losses make the organized Nazi extermination efforts look amateurish in terms of bodies. Treblinka blushes at the Siege of Stalingrad.

Look deep, deep in my past here (like 2016, hint, Purell) if you wish to accuse me of antisemitism or denialism.

[iemanja]

23. Then why did you even need to bring up the Holocaust

You made it a contest, when you simply could have posted the figures about Russians losses in WWII.

[sir pball]

25. To sharpen it.

The Holocaust is often called the worst loss of life in WWII, challenging that assumption gets more attention and better responses.

Same as saying "the nuclear bombings weren't the worst single attack of the war, the firebombing of Tokyo was".

[WhiskeyGrinder]

35. You're making comparisons that other people also regularly make while denying the Holocaust. If you don't want people

to think you’re saying antisemitic things, don’t say antisemitic things

[sir pball]

39. ELI5 how am I denying the Holocaust, please.

I straight up said 12 million people were murdered in the Holocaust, including 6 million Jews, specifically because of their religion or other immutable traits. Denied not one single iota of the truth.

It's likely the worst moral crime in human history.

But in terms of sheer bodies, it's less than half of what the Nazis did in the East. That's not even Holocaust minimalism, unless you think Russians were less important people.

[iemanja]

21. There is a difference between people dying in battle

and the blanket extermination of a race of people.

[sir pball]

24. The Nazis absolutely wanted to genocide Russians, Slavs.

They just didn't own the land where Russians lived so they couldn't exterminate them as efficiently.

Russians were Slavs, and Slavs in Nazi-controlled territory were put into camps alongside Jews, Romani, and all the other Untermensch. They exterminated almost every Russian POW they captured…3 million Russians died at their hands. Don't tell me that's any less of a "blanket extermination" than the Shoah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_atrocities_committed_against_Soviet_prisoners_of_war

[iemanja]

26. Why then did you say that you think the Holocaust was the worst crime in history?

You seem to be arguing against that point.

[sir pball]

27. Thinking of a crime and executing it are two different things.

The Nazis "just" attacked the living daylights out of Russia, with the plan of killing them all.

They built the most coordinated, efficient, and horrific machine of death ever to exterminate the undesirables within their borders.

As awful as the siege of Stalingrad was, it will never compare to the pure horror that was Treblinka.

Said as someone who has slowly walked up the railroad to those gates of death. And seen Terezin. And Auschwitz, and Sobibor.

[Bluestocking]

28. This has an anti-Semitic undertones to it

What I am reading is “well there were lots of deaths during WW 2 so why make such a big deal about the holocaust.”

[sir pball]

29. Yeah, I expected this.

The Shoah was the worst crime against humanity of all time, period.

I have walked up the railroad ties to Treblinka, been to Auschwitz. The Nazi machine that exterminated untold millions is the worst crime in the history of the world.

I am not saying that body counts matter. It's what motivates the slaughter that's important.

The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people than either nuclear bomb. Are you going to say the bombs were less evil because they killed fewer people? I wouldn't.

[Bluestocking]

30. Remember Pearl Harbor

The Japanese attacked the US. The Jewish people never attacked anyone but were targeted for extermination simply because of their religion. It is not the first time in history that the Jewish people have been targeted for extermination.

[DBoon]

31. and the 16th through 19th slaughter of indigenous peoples in America and Australia

Tasmanians killed to extinction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Tasmanians

Genocide of Native Americans : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States

Hitler's Holocaust could not have happened without a long history of Europeans destroying indigenous people across the world.

[Crunchy Frog]

32. It wasn't just russians, but it did reflect

the profligacy with regard to human life with which russia still fights its wars.

[Kennah]

36. If you're counting bodies ...

... Okay.

But are you saying that a bureaucratic effort to exterminate Jews wasn't the worst crime of WWII?

[sir pball]

40. I've literally said that here several times, yes.

Morality does trump body count…but jesus, was it one hell of a body count on the Eastern Front.

[Kennah]

42. That was the result of the Soviet system and a mindset