Silencers: The NRA’s latest big lie

[babylonsister]

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/30/silencers_the_nras_latest_big_lie/

Silencers: The NRA’s latest big lie
Silencers could give the next Adam Lanza even more time to kill -- but to the NRA, they protect kids' hearing
By Alexander Zaitchik


A gruesome holiday season exercise: Think of some firearms and accessories that might have added to the body counts of Aurora and Newtown. More starkly, imagine the means by which coming Auroras and Newtowns will be made more deadly.

The exercise starts with a militarized baseline, as both shooters unloaded designed-for-damage rounds from high-capacity magazines loaded into assault rifles. Improving their killing efficiency would require one of two things: the ability to shoot more bullets faster, or more time. A fully automatic machine gun would provide the first. More minutes to hunt, meanwhile, might be gained by employing a noise suppressor, those metallic tubes better known as silencers. By muffling the noise generated with every shot by sonic booms and gas release, a silencer would provide a new degree of intimacy for public mass murder, delaying by crucial seconds or minutes the moment when someone calls the police after overhearing strange bangs coming from Theater 4 or Classroom D. The same qualities that make silencers the accessory of choice for targeted assassination offer advantages to the armed psychopath set on indiscriminate mass murder.

It should surprise no one that the NRA has recently thrown its weight behind an industry campaign to deregulate and promote the use of silencers. Under the trade banner of the American Silencer Association, manufacturers have come together with the support of the NRA to rebrand the silencer as a safety device belonging in every all-American gun closet. To nurture this potentially large and untapped market, the ASA last April sponsored the first annual all-silencer gun shoot and trade show in Dallas. America’s silencer makers are each doing their part. SWR Suppressors is asking survivalists to send a picture of their “bugout bag” for a chance to win an assault rifle silencer. The firm Silencero — “We Dig Suppressors and What They Do” — has put together a helpful “Silencers Are Legal” website and produced a series of would-be viral videos featuring this asshole.

This Silencer Awareness Campaign is today’s gun lobby in a bottle. The coordinated effort brings together the whole family: manufacturers, dealers, the gun press, rightwing lawmakers at every level of government, and the NRA. Each are doing their part to chip away at federal gun regulation in the name of profits and ideology. Together, they plan to strip the longstanding regulatory regime around silencers, and reintroduce them to the gun-buying public as wholesome, children-friendly accessories, as harmless as car mufflers.


snip//

If the current campaign succeeds in delisting silencers from NFA regulation, the gun lobby likely won’t wait long before targeting the remaining regulatory regimes limiting the circulation of fully automatic machine guns and even hand grenades. Do not be surprised when you see a 2014 Gun World feature extolling freshwater blast fishing as a great way to connect kids and nature, while reducing the risks of fishing with sharp steel hooks, some of which have dangerous double jags. If you can’t see the safety rationale here, or the Freedom Logic that undergirds it, then you obviously do not care about America’s children and their millions of young tender fingers.

[hack89]

1. In Europe silencers are considered safety devices

and are not only legal but encouraged.

In any case, silencers are legal in America right now - you just need to pay a $200 tax.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. whatever happened to suppressors?

[hack89]

4. Same thing. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. Europeans are so advanced. They even have Decent Health Care.

[otohara]

45. Here If Shot, Raise Millions With Media Help Is The Answer

this kid in Aurora shooting Caleb - no health insurance...millions in medical bills. The local news was promoting how you could help - haven't heard much about Caleb in a long time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/caleb-medley-health-insurance_n_1699092.html

[Hoyt]

36. Europeans view guns very differently from the callous gun cultists here.

[farminator3000]

50. you don't read very well, or did you forget this-

Last edited Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:47 PM - Edit history (1)

The gun lobby’s silencer campaign has bigger prey in mind than state hunting laws. Silencers are among the few accessories regulated by the National Firearms Act. To purchase or transfer a silencer, you must acquire a special license, enter the serial number in a federal registry, and pay a $200 fee. (The fee, which equaled a de facto ban in 1934, has not been adjusted for inflation in 79 years.) For gun extremists who struggle with introductory-level American history and political theory, the licensing regime is half Stamp Act, half Yellow Badge. What most outrages the manufacturers about the regime is that it works. By licensing silencers, tracking and taxing their exchange, the government has kept them from flooding the market like so many other military-market gun accessories with cameos in recent massacres and serial sniper attacks. “Simple licensing requirements weeds out both blatant criminals and a certain kind of stockpiling insurrectionist who refuses to engage with the federal government,” says Ladd Everitt of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. “The law has been effective.”

from the salon link there. so how much adjusted for inflation? number? link?

[Spider Jerusalem]

61. $3315 in 2011 dollars

according to this: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

[farminator3000]

67. sweet!

[farminator3000]

51. FINLAND IS NOT IN EUROPE go away

Europe

In Austria, the purchase or possession of a suppressor is prohibited according to §17 of the Austrian Weapons Law.

In the Czech Republic suppressors are, according to §4 of Weapons and Ammunition Law, considered an A-class weapon, which means a special exception is needed to possess them. This makes suppressors illegal for any practical purpose.

In Denmark, the Danish Weapons And Explosives Law makes the unlicensed possession of a suppressor illegal. A permit may be acquired from the local police, but permission is almost always denied. Only police and hunters with special permission for the emergency slaughtering of livestock inside buildings are allowed to use them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

[CTyankee]

75. Finland not in Europe?

Is this wrong? http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/european-union/finland/

[derby378]

78. I can see Finland from my house!

If you have no room for a globe at home, might I suggest a decent world atlas?

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. I wish the NRA could be silenced.

They have done more harm than good.

[Hugabear]

5. I'm sure the gungeoneers will be here shortly to tell us why they need silencers

There are plenty of NRA fans here, they'll be around shortly.

[rdking647]

6. there is almost no chance of sileners being deregulated

[former-republican]

7. The dreaded silencer

[RomneyLies]

10. Predictable

[Ikonoklast]

23. Former my foot.

[RomneyLies]

27. ?

[farminator3000]

52. it is selling guns to children that is disgusting laughing boy

[etherealtruth]

8. Think of the children

... the survivors could have been spared hearing loss had Lanza just used a silencer

Do these crazies even hear themselves speak? Are they intentionally becoming a parody of themselves?

[RomneyLies]

11. There is no justification for a silencer

None.

[former-republican]

15. Ever use a evil silencer ?

Here's a clue ....



It's not like the movies.

[RomneyLies]

18. Yes, I have.

Again, no justification.

None.

Louder bang = more likely somebody hears and calls 911.

If there was some way to make the noise even louder, I'd say force that on gun owners.

[Tempest]

28. Similar to the movies

I could fire off a silencer in a theater during dialog and you wouldn't hear it two rows away.

[farminator3000]

53. see #52

[slackmaster]

12. They're unregulated in Finland, Norway, and France and don't seem to be a problem there

They're also relatively easy to acquire in the UK.

[Pholus]

16. Hey I'd let you have a silencer if you followed the REST of Norway's gun laws.

[slackmaster]

19. I would take Norway's gun laws over California's any day

Licenses are required to buy any type of firearm, but anyone who really wants a license and is not legally disqualified from possessing a firearm can get a license for anything up to and including machine guns. People have to get permission from a chief of police, but only "reasonable grounds" (which include collecting firearms) and lack of any reason to be "deemed unfit" - Things like alcoholism or a criminal record.

Norway's system of licensing gun dealers is similar to ours.

http://www.ub.uio.no/ujur/ulovdata/lov-19610609-001-eng.html

[Kolesar]

21. The asshole next door who has already been in front of a judge would never get his license

I am really afraid of ricocheting bullets when that assclown is shooting baby racoons. He should not be posessing firearms. Nor should the republican dumbass who left his pistol out where "TJ Lane" could use it for a mass murder at the high school in the next suburb.

[Lizzie Poppet]

25. Norway vs. California

Norway's rate per 100k of gun-related homicide? 0.04 California? 4.82 (significantly higher than the US national average of 3.7, btw). Yet Norway has what amounts to "must issue" licensing laws, and for a broader range of firearms than is allowed to US civilians.

[slackmaster]

31. Maybe Norwegians are just nicer people than Californians are

Of course the large majority of California's violent crime happens in the larger cities, and most of the state is quite safe.

[Hoyt]

38. Most gun cultists would flip out over Norway's laws, particularly almost total ban on public toting.

[slackmaster]

39. Random violent crime of all kinds is extremely rare in Norway

People rarely have to defend themselves from criminals. Home break-ins and carjackings are also very rare there.

[Hoyt]

41. It's rare here too, for most of us. Some folks are paranoid, but that is another issue.

[farminator3000]

54. you vs. me

Types of civilian-owned guns

Norway has a large population of hunters.[3] Semi-automatic and bolt action rifles, as well as shotguns, make up the better part of the guns in civilian homes. There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians, unless they fall into the collector category. Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.

Handguns have some calibre restrictions. A Smith & Wesson Model 500, for example, is illegal due to its high power, but other, less powerful, guns are legal as they are used in sports shooting. Norway has a long tradition of high-end sports shooting competitions, especially rifle shooting. Each calibre must be used in some type of competition to be allowed. Also, there is a restriction on the number of weapons an owner can have for each calibre. For recreational shooters, only one gun is allowed in each calibre. For professional and semi-professional shooters, a spare gun is allowed. A recreational shooter is only allowed to own four different handguns. To obtain more, documentation on extensive involvement in sport shooting is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

[Pholus]

34. So it sounds like we agree.

Licensing is a great idea for exactly the reasons you give. Too bad it typically gets bashed as "grabbing."

Public transport NOT on body, unloaded, hidden from view. Must have a reason for transport. No more wild west CCW "cause I feel like it" crap.

I also like the four handgun limit for recreational shooters as well as the caliber restrictions. My gunloon brother only misses that one by a factor of five or so.

10000 round ammo limits (15000 if 5000 are 22LR). Hey, at least you won't have ammo shortages at the dealers just cause our newly elected president isn't the right sort of guy.

The storage rules are also common sense that is ignored by more than a few "responsible" gun owners of my acquaintance. Nice to see it as a law. I also like the mandatory inspections by police part.

And you can buy your machine guns but you must have justified why it fits your "collecting" interests which have been defined in advance and you cannot legally fire them without permission.

Also, the fact that "self defense" is not a valid reason for ownership by itself kinda appeals to me, given the innate paranoia of American gun owners. You might have it for that, but you have to justify it in a slightly more positive way.

And the mandatory training portions and required attendance at gun clubs. Things I've said were good solutions to anti-social shooters.

Seriously, this sounds like the way to go. We both are happy. So let's start saying that this is a reasonable compromise and be done!

[slackmaster]

37. As long as issuance of licenses is based on objective criteria only, I believe it's workable.

On the rest of your post, you kind of wandered out in the weeds with pointless restrictions but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Pholus]

43. You like these restrictions (better than CA).

[slackmaster]

44. There are some trade-offs, but on balance I like Norway's system better because I collect firearms.

I'd like to be able to legally acquire some historic machine guns and sub-machine guns, but other than for law enforcement the only reason my state recognizes as a "valid" reason to own them is to provide prop weapons for the movie industry.

[CTyankee]

76. I have read about Norway's gun control laws.

I believe they have provisions that strictly limit/control carrying weapons in public. I also believe that police can enter your home to check on whether your gun safe is properly operating/maintained. So that's cool with you?

[farminator3000]

56. but guns are

Types of civilian-owned guns

Norway has a large population of hunters. Semi-automatic and bolt action rifles, as well as shotguns, make up the better part of the guns in civilian homes. There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians, unless they fall into the collector category. Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.

Handguns have some calibre restrictions. A Smith & Wesson Model 500, for example, is illegal due to its high power, but other, less powerful, guns are legal as they are used in sports shooting. Norway has a long tradition of high-end sports shooting competitions, especially rifle shooting. Each calibre must be used in some type of competition to be allowed. Also, there is a restriction on the number of weapons an owner can have for each calibre. For recreational shooters, only one gun is allowed in each calibre. For professional and semi-professional shooters, a spare gun is allowed. A recreational shooter is only allowed to own four different handguns. To obtain more, documentation on extensive involvement in sport shooting is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

[slackmaster]

80. Collectors can't buy automatic weapons in California, but they can in Norway

Norway's system is essentially a shall-issue licensing system. To be denied a license, there has to be a compelling reason and not just a subjective whim of a bureaucrat.

Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.

That has been the case here in the USA since 1934.

[maggiesfarmer]

13. this may be a good point, but let's keep focus on capacity and rounds/second, not on decibel levels

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. Protect their hearing, while more of their peers are able to be mowed down?

Leave it to the NRA.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Another classic example of the big lie from Zaitchik

[farminator3000]

57. oh get off it

post another lie from zaitchik

Alexander Zaitchik
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Alexander Zaitchik is an American freelance journalist who has written for The Nation, Salon, The New Republic, The New York Observer, Rolling Stone, Mother Jones, The International Herald Tribune, Wired, The San Francisco Chronicle, and The Believer. He has been on staff of the New York Press, served as an investigative reporting fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and founded the online magazine Freezerbox (1998 - 2008). Zaitchik has also held editorial roles at the Prague Pill and the Russian tabloid The eXile.

His book, Common Nonsense: Glenn Beck and the Triumph of Ignorance, was published by Wiley & Sons in June 2010.[1]

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. The article was based on a false premise and got more facts wrong as it went along

Classic big lie approach from someone who knows how to do it well

[farminator3000]

74. example please. just one...

classic post from someone who's not so good at it...

from the article. fact.
It should surprise no one that the NRA has recently thrown its weight behind an industry campaign to deregulate and promote the use of silencers.

disprove please.

[Kolesar]

20. The development of silencers is tied to coup plots in the Caribbean.

"Mitch WerBell gained his reputation for cold-blooded efficiency during his days with the CIA’s wartime precursor, the OSS. After the war he maintained his ties to the Agency as a man who could be depended on to figure out how make problems go away. His accomplished his revolutionary leap in silencer technology in 1967, during a short break from international intrigue. The previous year, federal agents raided WerBell’s mercenary training camp in Florida, where he was in the final stages of preparing an army of Miami-based Cubans to invade Haiti and oust “Papa Doc” François Duvalier. "

[NickB79]

22. Even with a suppressor/silencer, an AR-15 will do 100 decibels

If you can't hear that, you're deaf. The suppressor doesn't reduce the bullet velocity, so it's still traveling 3000 fps, 3 times faster than sound. Therefore, you'll still hear the very distinctive sonic crack.

Frankly, I don't want to see silencers as easily available as they are in Europe, Australia and New Zealand. I'd be fine with them being as regulated as the firearm itself, complete with serial number and NICS background check at purchase. As it is, they are legal in most states as a NFA Act weapon, meaning you have to fill out a stack of paperwork and pay a $200 tax before you can purchase or build one.

[ileus]

32. Plus you'll have first round pop.

[farminator3000]

58. see #50

[rock]

24. What! The NRA is not pushing for smokeless powder

Which will not smudge or soil the nice clean waxed floors. Of course there's still the problem of all that blood.

[MadHound]

26. You obviously know very little about guns,

First of all, the guns that are being used in these assaults aren't giant hog legs, cannons that fire with the voice of thunder. Instead, they sound more like small firecrackers, and in fact many witnesses at Sandy Hook, Aurora and elsewhere have stated that they thought it was fireworks, or part of the movie, or some such until the bodies started falling.

Second, it is quite easy to make a silencer, you can do it with some very ordinary materials, some of which you would consider to be trash.

Oh, and if silencers give shooters this big advantage, then why haven't they used them?

Silencers have legitimate safety uses in competitive shooting, especially at indoor ranges. Nice to see you're willing to damage the hearing of innocent citizens in your quest for gun control.

[Tempest]

29. "Silencers have legitimate safety uses in competitive shooting, especially at indoor ranges."

LOFL!

I've been shooting in indoor ranges for more than 30 years AND I'VE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE SILENCER USED!

You're so full of shit.

[MadHound]

35. You're shooting with some foolish people then.

Are they at least using ear protection?

I've police in my family, and they use silencers at the range.

Some folks even have ranges in their basement, in the middle of nice suburban neighborhoods, and to protect their hearing, and keep the neighbors from freaking out, they use silencers as well.

And again, it isn't that difficult to make a silencer, even a potato will do in a pinch.

Rather than concentrating on fulfilling every wish of gun control people, let's go after what is actually possible, and will do the most good. That would be banning assault weapons, high capacity clips, magazines and drums.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

48. EVERY time I go to a range, I see other people using silencers.

I go to several different ranges in NE Ohio too.

[farminator3000]

60. BS see #50

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

79. Uhhh, not BS. I own silencers and I personally know about a dozen others.

A couple co workers, and some other shooting buddies. We have the permits, pay the fees, and comply with all the federal NFA regulations. They're not all that uncommon. Everyone is always curious and then delighted when I offer to let them shoot. Every young shooter (10-16 years old) and new shooter comments on how much easier and more comfortable they are to shoot - basically it makes the guns less intimidating to new shooters. People are always asking nervously, are they legal? I explain yes, show them the paperwork, and then explain how they too can get them. I'll bet I've gotten about 4-10 people to buy suppressors!

I only got one negative reaction at a gun range when using my silencers... some old fart with a few antique revolvers in the stall next to me kept looking over at me with disdain. Seemed odd since, technically, I was shooting more peacefully than him. So I decided to really troll the guy and pulled a submachinegun out of my range mag and blew through a few magazines. He left - LOL.

I once OPEN CARRIED my Glock 19 with a silencer on it. It was only one of two times I ever open carried in public. You get some real weird looks when people realize what's on your hip - lol. Sitting down is kind of a chore because there's a 10" tube hanging off the barrel.

Trolling people in real life

Edited to add (my favorite suppressed gun):

[MattBaggins]

33. Oh please

Did they run out of ear plugs and muffs

[ThoughtCriminal]

42. OK - let me get this straight

Guns are not loud, but you need silencers to protect your hearing?

That's... uh... delicate. May I suggest:

[farminator3000]

59. see #50

[ileus]

30. We all know the last time a suppressor was used in a crime...

right?

[rrneck]

40. Youtube video and other information.

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm

Noise Sources and Their Effects

Jet take-off (at 25 meters) 150 Eardrum rupture

Aircraft carrier deck 140

Military jet aircraft take-off from aircraft carrier with afterburner at 50 ft (130 dB). 130

Thunderclap, chain saw. Oxygen torch (121 dB). 120 Painful. 32 times as loud as 70 dB.

Steel mill, auto horn at 1 meter. Turbo-fan aircraft at takeoff power at 200 ft (118 dB). Riveting machine (110 dB); live rock music (108 - 114 dB). 110 Average human pain threshold. 16 times as loud as 70 dB.

Jet take-off (at 305 meters), use of outboard motor, power lawn mower, motorcycle, farm tractor, jackhammer, garbage truck. Boeing 707 or DC-8 aircraft at one nautical mile (6080 ft) before landing (106 dB); jet flyover at 1000 feet (103 dB); Bell J-2A helicopter at 100 ft (100 dB). 100 8 times as loud as 70 dB. Serious damage possible in 8 hr exposure
Boeing 737 or DC-9 aircraft at one nautical mile (6080 ft) before landing (97 dB); power mower (96 dB); motorcycle at 25 ft (90 dB). Newspaper press (97 dB). 90 4 times as loud as 70 dB. Likely damage 8 hr exp

Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters). Car wash at 20 ft (89 dB); propeller plane flyover at 1000 ft (88 dB); diesel truck 40 mph at 50 ft (84 dB); diesel train at 45 mph at 100 ft (83 dB). Food blender (88 dB); milling machine (85 dB); garbage disposal (80 dB). 80 2 times as loud as 70 dB. Possible damage in 8 h exposure.


Passenger car at 65 mph at 25 ft (77 dB); freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. (76 dB). Living room music (76 dB); radio or TV-audio, vacuum cleaner (70 dB). 70 Arbitrary base of comparison. Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor
Real world data

Live tests by independent reviewers of numerous commercially available suppressors find that even low caliber unsuppressed .22 LR handguns produce gunshots over 160 decibels.[14] In testing, most of the suppressors reduced the volume to between 130 and 145 dB, with the quietest suppressors metering at 117 dB. The actual suppression of sound ranged from 14.3 to 43 dB, with most data points around the 30 dB mark. A notable example is the De Lisle carbine, a British World War II suppressed rifle used in small numbers by Special Forces. This was recorded at 85.5 dB in official firing tests.[15]

Comparatively, ear protection commonly used while shooting provides 18 to 32 dB of sound reduction at the ear.[16] Further, chainsaws, rock concerts, rocket engines, pneumatic drills, small firecrackers, and ambulance sirens are rated at 100 to 140 dB.[17]

While some consider the noise reduction of a suppressor significant enough to permit safe shooting without hearing protection ("hearing safe&quot , noise-induced hearing loss may occur at 85 time-weighted-average decibels or above if exposed for a prolonged period,[18] and suppressed gunshots regularly meter above 130 dB. However, the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration uses 140 dB as the "safety cutoff" for impulsive noise, which has led most US manufacturers to advertise sub-140 dB suppressors as "hearing safe." It should be noted that current OSHA standards would allow no more than sub single second exposure to impact noise over 130 dB per 24 hours. That would equate to a single .308 round fired through a very efficient can. This result effectively requires all users of suppressors to wear additional ear hearing protection.

[farminator3000]

62. nobody wants to watch or read that BS

see #50

[rrneck]

66. So you aren't interest in actual information.

You know, facts and stuff. God forbid you equip yourself to make an informed decision.



Your schtick gets better every day. I can't wait until you start demanding beer and travel money.

[farminator3000]

69. I AM i read the article and post #50 you are showing me magazine ads

[rrneck]

72. Youtube has audio.

See if you can find the volume knob. But if it's next to your ass I doubt you'll ever locate it.

Suppressors are not like in the movies. They don't make a gun silent. They make it as loud as a chainsaw. There is no reason to regulate them to the extent they are.

I like suppressors on guns because I don't care to hear them from a mile away. I don't like noise pollution.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

46. Kick

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

47. Silencers themselves are not dangerous.

They add nothing to a firearms lethality... they don't make it shoot more powerful, faster, or have a greater capacity. They make a firearm longer and heavier and (in the case of non-fixed barrel firearms) can decrease the reliability. In exchange, the firearm become more pleasant to shoot.

Silencers are not a problem. Grenades will never be removed from the NFA registries... they are indiscriminate explosive weapons.

[farminator3000]

63. TOTAL BS for pete's sake this is ridiculous

that seriously doesn't even deserve a reply

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

77. Have you ever used a firearm, let alone a firearm with a silencer?

Hint: It's not like the James Bond or Boondock Saints movies.

If you equip a rifle, say a Bushmaster .223, with a silencer you'll likely STILL have to wear some hearing protection. It will still be over 100dB. Silenced firearms are still pretty loud - they're not mythical ninja weapons portrayed by hollywood. The only suppressors I've ever seen get REAL quiet are for .22 rimfire... a pretty dimunitive/laughable caliber (unless you're a squirrel).

[Redfairen]

49. K/R*

[iiibbb]

55. Supressors are already regulated, taxed heavily, and registered - should be lauded

They are the height of "common sense" gun control.

And yet you are not satisfied.

People with carry permits.... they get trained, they register themselves with the state, they are regulated.

And yet they are demonized by you folks, and they even get their names published in an easy-access database


This is why I'm not really a fan of more "common sense" gun control. I don't get the sense that the gun control crowd will ever be satisfied. Some nutjob shoots up some place... a criminal who never should have gotten out of prison shoots up public servants... and the anti-gun crowd attacks (not just criticizes... attacks) the people who have nothing to do with it.


There are many compromises that I think would be relevant and helpful on the gun issue... but I have no faith the other side is going to act any different that current Republicans do on budgets.

[farminator3000]

64. see #50

and go away

[iiibbb]

70. All #50 does is prove my point...

Suppressors are a huge non-issue... and apparently the only thing that bugs you is that the fee hasn't been adjusted for inflation.

Suppressors are a problem why?

End of story.

[farminator3000]

65. thanks!

good read!

[farminator3000]

71. the ironic thing is...

i'm listening to this right now...