For those cheering ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

that we should go over the cliff ...

I invited you to come to Arizona and continue to cheer in the face of one of the 35,000 people who received notice this week that if we go over the cliff, they won't receive their weekly check.

But I would suggest that as you cheer ... bob and weave, bob and weave; it'll help you keep your teeth.

[Buzz Clik]

1. I would think the Tea Party would be delighted with this...

... lots of savings in spending, government workers staying at home, reduction of the debt on the shoulders of people who cannot afford it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. Howard Dean seemed delighted with it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. Yep ...

But he won't miss a single U/C payment, nor will he be facing homelessness, nor will he have to decide what to do with his child when the day-care/after school care subsidies, that enable him to work, ends.

[Rex]

41. Oh?

I'd like to see why you say that got a link?

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. Sure do.

While many experts fear dire consequences if the United States dives off the fiscal cliff — $607 billion of tax increases and spending cuts that will begin Jan. 1 barring government action — former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean thinks it would be a good thing.

"No matter what people said during the election, you cannot solve this deficit problem without everybody paying more taxes, not just rich people,” he told CNBC. Both Democrats and Republicans are trying to spare the middle class from tax hikes.

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Dean-economy-dive/2012/12/05/id/466508

[patrice]

56. delight? Is expressing a professional opinion TTE "Surgery is necessary" an instance of delight? nt

[patrice]

54. "delighted"? I would like to see that, please and thank you. nt

[One of the 99]

63. Dean has always been a fiscal conservative.

So no surprize there.

[progressoid]

2. I for one am not looking forward to more financial strife.

I have enough problems. Going off a cliff isn't really a benefit to me.

[MadHound]

3. Sure, just so long as you're willing to go into a room full of seniors, and those near retirement,

And tell them that you're willing to cut their SS benefits in order to not go over the cliff.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. Except ...

the elderly were to be exempted in the rumored deal that did not come about and is not real ... these 35,000 will be cut off by something very real.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Show proof of that assertion. I do not think that you can.

A chained CPI for Social Security could not by definition 'exempt the elderly' as SS is comprised of ONLY the elderly and disabled. Exempt them and you have exempted the entire program so logic tells us that any talk of chained CPI for SS is targeted specifically at the elderly.
Lots of bluster and assertions without a shred of proof.

[1StrongBlackMan]

14. Okay

last response ... since it is clear you either have not read beyond my first couple of words, ever.

Please google CPI-E ... It can be chained.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. So you have not proof of your assertions. That is as clear as a bell.

You keep harping on these 'exemptions' but when asked you can not cite a quote from the President, can not state the metrics nor parameters for this 'exemption' you are going on about.
I have read all of your words, they just don't add up to much. They contain no actual facts, they are comprised of personal snark and characterizations of those who dare to disagree with you. Down thread you presume to know I am not old, nor disabled and claim I am 'using them'. Very offensive and again, that is just your imagination, based on your assumptions and perhaps prejudices. A lack of real world facts does not stop you.

Where is a shred of proof for any of your assertions? Why can't you just admit you don't have any?

[Rex]

43. I also want to know why someone said Howard Dean would be pleased.

I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer.

[MrSlayer]

53. Because Dr. Dean said we should go over.

That it was the best way to get the defense cuts we need so badly and more. Why do you not believe he wants it?

http://m.

[patrice]

57. Robert Reich has also supported on this. link:

http://robertreich.org/post/38853097766

[patrice]

59. And Paul Krugman, though his position is nuanced, as usual. link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/18/paul-krugman-fiscal-cliff-deal_n_2322436.html

[MadHound]

13. Well first of all, it isn't a "rumored" deal,

It was part of the negotiations that were put on the table, and could very well still be on the table as a sop to the 'Pugs. After all, as Carney said, it is just a "technical tweak", albeit one that will cost seniors dearly over time.

As far as not effecting seniors, you're wrong. Only those who are on Supplemental SS, those who are disabled, would be exempt. Seniors would still be effected.

Get your shit straight.

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. Please ...

it was a Proposal that boehner thought he could sell to his caucus (i.e., a rumored deal) ... He did, he couldn't, it's off the table in these negotiations, as they have re-set to the pre-chained CPI terms.

As far as not effecting seniors, you're wrong. Only those who are on Supplemental SS, those who are disabled, would be exempt. Seniors would still be effected.

The wealthier elderly maybe. You do realize that the CPI formula can be changed, right. Google CPI-E.

Lastly, my shit is generally pretty loose ... not enough roughage; but I always leave it where it lays, until I flush it.

[MadHound]

23. Actually it was a proposal made and announced by the Obama administration,

As a concession to the 'Pugs for keeping the tax rates on the top two percent. Frankly, since nobody is talking right now, neither you nor I know if it is still on the table. My guess is that since Obama considered it such a minor thing, a "technical tweak", it probably is still on the table. But none of us will know for sure until the deal is made, and by then it will be too late and we'll be screwed.

The only exemption is for those who are Supplemental SS, those who are disabled. Those who receive regular SS, you know, the vast majority of SS recipients, they will be effected by the chained CPI.

As far as what can be changed, there is no guarantee that anything will be changed. You are just spouting pie in the sky stuff in order to justify inflicting long term pain on the elderly.

[LaydeeBug]

69. ok...so go into a room of working folk and tell them their EARNED BENEFITS will be CHAINED

so that the unemployed don't get an interrupted payment.

God willing, we'll ALL be seniors one day. To pretend that "seniors won't get hurt" by this bullshit is ludicrous. "Just not 'these' seniors right now". They wanna put the screws to seniors who aren't even in their golden years yet. Or the *real* truth: there are corporatists who want to protect the ubers from having to pay back the fund. I mean, it takes some stones to try and pretend that bullshit is righteous. Really.

Bob and weave THAT.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. A pretense of compassion for some to cover a calloused promotion of theft from elderly

and sick people.
Unemployment benefits are important and should not be held hostage like this. By the same token, Social Security benefits are important and should not be held hostage like this. Unemployment payments are short term, designed as limited time payments to working people with options. Social Security payments are long term for retirees on fixed incomes. But the OP see the elderly as prime targets for paying more in order to pay younger, healthy people who are unemployed for the time being. I do not see how anyone could not wish to protect both the Unemployed and the elderly, nor why anyone would accept the binary hostage holding of one group of citizens to excuse the theft from another group of citizens.
Twisted tales....

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. Stop it ...

I would respect you more if you would stop hiding behind the poor and the elderly and the disabled and veterans (who would have been exempted, i.e., protected from the effect of) and just come out and say, YOU don't want YOUR SS benefit cut!

[Bluenorthwest]

17. I'll do as I please, and I will always counter those who like you are promoting the cutting of

Social Security with hype and rhetoric and no proof of your assertions whatsoever. You do not know me, nor do you know my age, ability status, nor income. What basis are you making your assumptions about me on? Can you explain that? Why do you think you know me? Because I'm gay, and you have a neat little image in your head of what that means? I think that is it.
I asked you, and others have as well, to show some form of proof of your assertions. This claim of yours that there could be a Chained CPI for Social Security that exempts the elderly is absurd because the program is comprised of 66% elders and 33% disabled people. Exempt them all and there is no change at all.
But you have no quote from the President, no specifics to offer, no back up for your oft repeated claim that this theft exempts the elderly. To use the elderly in that fashion is tacky, but if you must do so, you really should show your work. Prove that these 'exemptions' exist.
Your blather does not count as proof, nor as fact. If you have something to offer in terms of a cite, a link or any proof at all, please, for the love of Mike post it in this thread. Or admit that you have no such proof, no such details. Honesty is better than verbiage.

[1StrongBlackMan]

24. Okay ...

Last remarks to you, since you refuse to acknowledge you are arguing a fiction, i.e., the effects of a chained CPI on the elderly, poor, disabled and veterans, without including the exemption art.

I'll do as I please, and I will always counter those who like you are promoting the cutting of Social Security with hype and rhetoric and no proof of your assertions whatsoever.

You remain free to hide behind the elderly, poor, disabled and veterans. It's dishonest, but you remain free.

You do not know me, nor do you know my age, ability status, nor income. What basis are you making your assumptions about me on? Can you explain that?

True ... I know very little about you ... but I think it safe to conclude that if you were in one or more of the exempted, you wouldn't free the need to leave to part out of your "argument."

Why do you think you know me? Because I'm gay, and you have a neat little image in your head of what that means? I think that is it.

Ahhh, there we go ... the root of you. I started a thread that mentioned Stonewall, as a very small part of a larger point. You attempted to turn into a discussion of Stonewall, I let you know that the thread was not about Stonewall and now your all the victim.

Get over it ... Get honest with yourself.

I'm done!

[Bluenorthwest]

29. No proof of your assertion about exemptions. More rambling about me.

I do not use my personal status to argue points on DU. If I had a million a month, I'd oppose Chained CPI, same as if I had zero a month. Principle is not about personal gain or loss for those of us with some ethics.
You still have not shown a shred of detail or even proof of any 'exemptions' so how the hell would anyone know if they were exempted from anything? What are the standards, the metrics, the details?
And the whole lecturing me routine is just naff and rude.
So you have nothing to back up your claims, thus you attack those who ask for proof of your claims. Over and over. If you had anything to cite as proof, you'd do so. But you don't so you write up some fantasy about me, a person you do not know, attack that fantasy person and call that a response.
To avoid being asked for proof, simply stop making assertions without evidence, stop making assumptions about others and those others will not correct your fictions.

[JimDandy]

31. So do you receive Social Security? n/t

[Harmony Blue]

26. Good post

Anyone that has taken ANY civics course in high school knows that the origin of social security was because the overwhelming majority of the elderly were living in poverty.

As of right now, most of the elderly that have social security barely are above what the U.N. considers the "poverty line", so I too am looking for such evidence as well.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. The OP offer not even an iota of proof of his assertions.

Instead, it is all characterizations and claims hurled without basis.

[leftstreet]

22. +1

[graham4anything]

52. NONE of the SUPPOSED cuts affects those in the next 10 years, so stop the deception

this has been debunked 100 times.

besides, most of the ones supposed angry are akin to the PUMA movement-
they didn't vote for Obama in the first place due to the color of his skin.

I have NOT heard one black senior citizen complaining about this except perhaps for those two talking heads Alan Keys and Cornel West who make money yapping against the president.

[gollygee]

4. It isn't an issue of being glad to go over the so-called cliff

and I'm glad the President is still working on this.

It's a question of whether we'll get a better deal now, or on January 4. We can't sacrifice one group of people to keep another group of people from having to wait until January for whatever happens automatically to be undone.

The right is using the Shock Doctrine, where they try to scare us into letting them do whatever they want by saying it's an emergency and we have to let them cut SS (whether they call it a cut or not) or cut any other program they don't like. I think we're better off not falling for their propaganda than giving in.

But I am glad there are still discussions.

[Cerridwen]

5. I'm not sure of the context here.

Would you mind terribly filling in a couple of the blanks for me?

Which 35,000 people received what notice from whom about their weekly checks?

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. 35,000 Arizonans ...

received notice that should we go over the cliff, they will no longer receive their weekly U/C allotment.

[Cerridwen]

15. Thanks. Unemployment Compensation?

I see a post upthread which I think mentions that.

Appreciate the reply.

UC is a state run program? So the repub run state of AZ is taking the unemployed as hostage and sent out the ransom note; and those who don't live in AZ and therefor don't vote in AZ are responsible for those who do live in AZ and who apparently voted in the repub state government that is now holding them hostage?

I live in NV. We're overrun by repubs here who pull all kinds of crap that are ruining my home state. I blame the people who are dragging us all down with them; not those who are trying to stop them from dragging us all down.

Blaming a symptom and treating only the symptom never cures the disease; it just allows the disease to progress unnoticed due to hidden symptoms.

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. Actually ...

those cut of were receiving the benefit extension that came out of the 2011 debt ceiling negotiation. And I'm pretty certain it's happening in Nevada, as well.

[Cerridwen]

28. That is run at the state level, right?

Run at the state level by the state level elected government?

The disease is tea-baggerism. Unfortunately, a whole lot of people would rather spread the disease than get an inoculation and we all suffer because of it.

Yes, it is happening in NV, too. There are so many apathetic, ignorant, un-involved people who come into my state I could scream. I know one guy who used to post here at DU who voted for the tea-bagger candidate then excused himself as being an "independent".

I know many in the Phoenix are who are much the same; the "rugged individualist" "cowboys" who "don't need no durned gov't interference." Most of whom get rather pissy when someone puts a septic next to their water supply then go run screaming to the evil gov't building department.

Now they're going to drag down the rest of us and complain it's our fault. I'm tired of simplistic fools.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. Yes .. U/C is a state run program ...

but the extension is funded by the federal government.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

8. For 30+ years

I've been watching Democrats struggling to protect the nation from the worst excesses of the Republican Party. The result has been a nation not only divided politically but economically, at levels not seen for almost 100 years. We have more people living in poverty, more working people who don't earn enough to pay federal income taxes, more hungry children than I've seen in my almost 65 years...the list is endless. Perhaps it's time to let those who vote republican for no better reason than they hate Blacks, or gays or women, to actually experience the consequences of their votes? It is a mistake to think that everyone of those 35,000 people who will have empty mailboxes voted for the Democratic candidate. Then think of all those who have voted Democratic will little benefit over the past 30 years...a minimum wage no one can live on, is a good place to start... only because playing defense rarely advances the ball down the field in the direction you want it to go.

I would not cheer if we do go over the cliff, instead I view it rather like having a bad tooth extracted. The extraction is not pleasant and there will have some pain for a few days after, but once healed you are much better off.

[Egalitarian Thug]

38. Well said. Stepping off the curb will yield results that will be impossible to gain if

they are allowed to make some Grand Giveaway and avoid the consequences of voting for each of the issues individually.

There are no good options allowed and there are no good guys here. The next session will see a stronger Democratic minority in the House and a stronger Democratic majority in the Senate. It stands to reason that we can get a better deal then than we can hope to now.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

64. I just heard

Dr. Jeffrey Sachs tell Dan Senor, on Morning Joe, that going over the cliff will not do anywhere near the damage that adopting the republican plan will do over the next 10 years! It was nice to hear someone actually say it. The problem is not just extended tax cuts and spending cuts for the next year or so, but 10 years.

[quinnox]

12. I'm cheering

For the cliff dive, it is the first step to getting the rich to pay their fair share. And the first step towards fiscal responsibility as well. I only hope that Obama doesn't rescue the republicans with a last minute deal. Time to stand firm for once, no deals with fiscal terrorists.

[Harmony Blue]

16. You are on your own

if you believe anyone thinks either alternative is something to cheer about. Going off the cliff is the most sensible of the two bad choices presented in front of us though.

[spanone]

20. wonder if congress will continue to receive their checks?????? i bet they took care of that.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. They each get a $900 raise on the 1st of January, that is already taken care of the the EO issued.

Meanwhile, old people got a $21 raise, far too much according to the OP. Good thing Cantor and Ryan got a pay hike, I mean they need it while elderly people can just make some adjustments.

[JimDandy]

32. I'm cheering.

At this point it's the best outcome. It creates a new starting point for negotiations, which apparently is desparetly needed because we've gotten nowhere on the old one in 17(?) months. The military budget will be in play - a big plus for me - and the rich's taxes get raised. And my financial situation is on the line if we go over, and I'm still okay with it. It puts the liberals in a better bargaining position.

[LisaL]

36. All our taxes will be raised too.

Let me know if you keep on cheering when you have to pay more money in taxes.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. I'm pretty certain ...

if ast performance is a predictor of future conduct ... After the first paycheck in January, we will hear a bunch of "My paycheck was less because of taxes ... It's all President Obama's fault" and "President Obama broke his promise ... He raised my taxes" posts.
.

[LisaL]

39. Yep. They will start crying instead of cheering.

[JimDandy]

42. As of today, the media is still saying that polls

show the American public will put the blame firmly where it belongs... on the Republicans in Congress.

[HiPointDem]

50. Obama signed the bill that created the fiscal cliff in the first place. He *does* bear some of the

blame.

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. That didn't take long. n/t

[JimDandy]

40. I'm okay with that.

I'm sure it will be temporary. Jan 1st will bring in the New Year AND a new position of strength!

[1StrongBlackMan]

44. Except for ...

those that won't be getting a U/C check this coming week; and those of the working poor that will have to choose between leaving their kid at home while they're at work, or figuring out what bill won't get paid because their childcare subsidy won't get paid next week; and those (like one DUer) will be homeless because their housing subsidy won't get paid.

[L0oniX]

33. Cheers. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

45. I feel pretty certain that if we do go over the cliff

the unemployment compensation situation and a middle-class tax cut will be taken care of in short order, that is, assuming Boehner is still speaker. If it's Cantor or some other bagger, all bets are off.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. Yes ...

The middleclass tax cut can be dealt with retroactively and the payroll tax thing can re-reinstated in a month, neither will do too mcuh harm; but the U/C thing can only be dealt with by saying "we'll try to get you your next check ... This one you just missed; sorry."

[TheKentuckian]

48. They can be retro as well. People got back checks in some of the extension cliffhangers.

Hell, I think I got one like that myself but I'm not 100%.

[1StrongBlackMan]

67. Yes ...

they can; but that's not what the State of Arizona is planning.

And when was there a need to issue extension back checks ... in 2010, President Obama "CAVED" to save them; In 2011, President Obama "CAVED" to save them ... Remember?

[TheKentuckian]

71. He should not have and that is as a person who would be homeless for another stretch without them

but that wasn't the point being discussed but rather the ability to retro, which is an admitted non-point because like the rest of it, it could go retro.

[HiPointDem]

49. Obama signed the fiscal cliff bill that a bipartisan congress passed. They can undo that bill as

easily as they created it in the first place.

Blame those responsible: the government that is committed to enforcing austerity on the population & is playing off various interest groups against each other to get what they want.

I personally am sick of it & sick of OPs like yours.

[1StrongBlackMan]

68. Well ...

the fix for you being sick of OPs like mine, is easier, than the legislative mess we find ourselves in ... DON'T READ MY OPs, or better, put me on ignore.

But that said, (and, if you're still reading) undoing a bill, politically, is far more difficult than creating the monster. Politically, because I believe that the Congress is no different than the world at large ... it is far easier to do something you know will make bad things to happen in the future, by convincing yourself that it'll never come to pass. In order to reverse the Bill, you would have to have a majority of Congress act in concert; and that's where the more pressing problem lies ... reversing the bill would require a majority of the politicians in Congress (who will be facing primary challenges) to stand up and say, "I was wrong."

On major pieces of legislation, it rarely happens.

[cbrer]

51. The best defense is a good offense

Any citizens attacking other citizens over political injustice will be taking their own chances...

[Skittles]

55. what your dog in this race?

you HAVE to understand implications other than short-terms so WHAT is it?

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. I care about the most vulnerable citizens ...

that will be hurt the day after tomorrow more then I care to protect my $40/year, 2 decades from now.

[Skittles]

70. so you think others don't care???

we care about the vulnerable now AND the vulnerable in the future

[Cali_Democrat]

58. I'm cheering and I hope we go over the cliff. Also, I don't need to bob and weave

I've got a wicked right hook.

[patrice]

60. Sorry! really!!

Perhaps we would have had a chance to not be in this position if someones had not decided, and possibly encouraged others, that the best way to express displeasure with "our" "representation" in 2010 was to not vote.

The best way to express displeasure with "our" "representation" is to call them up and make their lives a polite misery as often as possible. Not voting is a cop out that contributed to where we are today.

[CTyankee]

65. my dtr in CA is one of those people. This is a very bad thing for her and her family!

Altho I have told her I will bridge the gap between Jan. 1 and whenever the unemployment checks will go out again, it is still going to be a strain.

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. And many ...

who are not dependent on U/C checks, will ignore the real affected people in favor of the hypothetical.

I hope your daughter's situation turns around quickly in the neww year.

[Marr]

72. And when this *temporary* extension is up, what *permanent* concession would you make next?