When my conservative friends are losing a political discussion

[SHRED]

Here are the two "go to" responses from them:

1. "I am an 'independent' voter."
The more emphasis that is put on this claim the more I know they are further to the Right Wing.

2. "Both sides are messed up."
The old 'false equivalency' tactic which used to try and throw off the conversation. This is used more times than not in a fit of exasperation when really falling behind in the discussion. A last ditch attempt.

So predictable.
And so common.


--

[uponit7771]

1. M$M is doing number 2 to no end, they loose all credibility

[Chorophyll]

2. "Number 2" is a perfect descriptor for what they do.

[SunSeeker]

24. LOL

[Orrex]

3. When they claim to be "independent" voters...

Ask them who they voted for in 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, etc.

I have a bunch of "independent" friends who claimed to dislike Bush, but miraculously they still found the will to pull the red lever come election day.

[SharonAnn]

17. Yes, my "independent voter" friends always vote Republican. Interesting!

I wonder if they're just embarrassed to admit they vote Republican.

[NewJeffCT]

18. I used to work with a guy like that

All through 2004, he was telling everybody that he hated Bush and thought he was terrible - telling everybody in september & october to Vote for Kerry.

but, the day after the election, he admitted he voted Bush - the RW media had so scared him about Kerry that he thought Bush was the lesser of two evils.

[iiibbb]

28. Don't give independents a bad name just because the ones who talk to you are republican.

Since I started voting I have voted for Bush I, Clinton, Dole, Bush, Kerry, Obama, Obama

I've been voting Democrat lately because conservatism has become much more polar than it was 20-30 years ago.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/as-swing-districts-dwindle-can-a-divided-house-stand/#more-37996

http://xkcd.com/1127/large/


mostly it's the religious wackjobbery that's kept my votes in the D column... not because I think Dems necessarily have the right vision... it's just that Republicans are far off that I can't

I'm still an independent who identifies with the republicanism my dad grew up with.

[Orrex]

29. To be fair, *ALL* of the independents that I have talked to are Republican

Worse, they are Republicans who lack the famous courage of their convictions.


I don't dispute your standing as an independent; you can be the one exception among the dozens and dozens that I have talked to over the years.

[Ikonoklast]

4. "Who did you vote for in the last four national elections, house, senate, and president?"

"Who did you vote for state representative and governor last four elections?"


And if they answer truthfully...

"You are nothing but a Republican that is ashamed of your votes, and your party, and are looking to place the blame for both your and their stupidity elsewhere."

[samsingh]

5. i've called lot's of people on the both sides do it drivel

repugs do it.

Democrats have to fight otherwise we lose as we did in the past when we believed always taking the high road was the answer. It wasn't. When someone attacks you, it's imperative to fight back.

[QED]

6. Or they'll say something totally irrelevant like...

You want Carter again?

Or Clinton did it too.

Or so you want to pay for the illegals' welfare checks? (comeback - I'd rather do that than pay for corporate welfare, CEO salaries, and endless war)

Seriously, arguing with Republicans is a waste of time and exercise in frustration. I gave it up.

[bluestate10]

44. You are about where I am. I don't talk to anyone that yells about illegals or

the welfare state or freeloaders because invariably, once I delved into their reasoning for their positions, I found them to be corrosive bullshitters. Pretty much all of the most hypocritical people that I have met in my life have been republicans, they are typically obtuse, intolerant and ignorant.

[Warpy]

7. Mostly they flail around and go down a ditto list

of buzzwords and catch phrases and right wing lies and start dropping names out of context. Then they flip out and start shrieking about Communists.

This is why I don't bother with them any more. I just giggle and walk away twirling an index finger next to my temple.

[Populist_Prole]

27. Big time. They try to sound smart but you can tell they're very unread and ignorant

I like what you said about them throwing around talking points/buzzwords out of context because it's so true. It's so clear that they are peripherally informed by sitting in front of or around a blaring TV for a few minutes. They'll just take whatever terms and conflate them satisfy their own prejudices ( confirmation bias )

Despite their ability to access the information in depth, they choose to remain mind-boggingly ignorant, and so debating policy with them is like shooting fish in a barrel because it's so easy to show where they got it wrong. In the end they'll angrily acquiesce on matters of substance but wag their fingers at me using the god & guns card.

I want to but can't yet walk away from them twirling my finger about my temple, but my friendships with them are becoming noticeably more strained over the past year or so.

[bluestate10]

45. I met a man who insisted that the government could read our minds.

When I challenged him on facts, he tried to sound smart and started talking some nonsense about the government putting nano-particles into our brains to read our thoughts. When I challenged him more, he mentioned some bullshit website that I should go to to get "facts". I didn't waste any more of my time.

[Tsiyu]

8. Conservatives were the kids who cheated in high school

They always have to use somebody else's work.

Lately, they merely copy FOX or Rushbo. They don't EVER try to reason anything out, just like they never tried to study in high school.

Why learn anything when you can just repeat someone else's analysis?

For all their claims to be such rugged individualists, they sure do sound like so many sheep bleating to me.

[bluestate10]

46. "For all their claims to be such rugged individualists"

The conservatives that I have dealt with are anything but individualists. They depend far more on the "government" than I do. They are always about "theirs" and scream that everyone else is taking advantage. I have met some conservatives whose parents are on Social Security and Medicare and the conservatives themselves are fucking over government benefit programs when ever and where ever they can. Conservatives are nothing but a steaming pile of shit, IMO.

[Glitterati]

9. Mine resort to namecalling

Really ugly, personal stuff.

[SunSeeker]

25. Yes, namecalling is the sign they've lost the argument. nt

[Bigmack]

10. Can you tell me what a "conservative friend" is....?

I have no idea.

It used to be that I could tolerate people who are "conservative", but then that was when "conservatives" were people like Eisenhower, Rockefeller, and Dan Evans from Washington.

Now... it's all about Beck, Limbaugh, Ryan, and Inhoff.

I won't have anything to do with willfully ignorant, greedy, homophobic people who disdain their fellow Americans who are poor.

[progressoid]

11. Gah! I hated the "it's the extreme from both parties" canard.

So I asked, "who are the extremes in the Democratic party?"

I was told, "Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi"

Not kidding.

[DirkGently]

12. One not-too-crazy conservative I work with points to Obama's

ties to Wallstreet, e.g. Summers, Geithner. We work in an industry in which the destructive actions of the big banks can't reasonably be questioned, so that's where he goes: "Both sides are beholden to Wall Street."

I'm willing to engage, to an extent, in the obvious places conservatives are wrong, but there's not much I can say to that one, or to the point that defense spending / foreign wars have not decreased under Obama.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

13. #2 is used way too often by today's media

My biggest gripe with the media isn't that they're biased liberal or conservative. It's that too many of them are intellectually lazy.

[mac56]

14. "I vote for the person, not the party."

See #1 above.

[ananda]

15. The wrongsiders are fond of false equivalency and backlash projection.

They just can't face their own faults.

[OnyxCollie]

16. When Third Way "liberals" are losing a political discussion on a message board

here are the two "go to" responses from them:

1. "You're a hater who wants to bash the President."

2. "You want Republicans to win."

So predictable.
And so common.

[patrice]

31. I would like to know what people think "Third" refers to, please and thanks. nt

[bluestate10]

47. Your post is misguided. nt

[beyurslf]

19. Lots of people,on both sides, do #1.

Many really do think they are independent because they are not registered with either party. My guess is only about 1/4 of the people unaffiliated are really independent.

[EileenFB]

20. Another one I heard a lot this election cycle

"Just expressing MY first amendment rights while we still have them"

That one irks me to no end because they only want their opinion heard, not yours. In other words, shut up.

[vanlassie]

21. "I'm really more of a Libertarian."

[patrice]

33. I like to hear that one, because it's an excuse to talk about freedom & how it differs from LiberTea

[sulphurdunn]

22. Don't forget:

"I used to be a democrat until (fill in the blank)."

[patrice]

23. "so common" that that's also what we hear from emo progs, which fact I'd be willing to live

with it, if #1. we were all allowed to admit it, instead of being told how immoral the rest of us are for supporting PO; and #2. if emo progs would differentiate themselves somehow from conservatives as to their functional role in the larger scheme of things, i.e. conservatives have/can/do/will act in a manner so as TTE "kill 'em all, let god sort them out" for their own values, will emo progs?

I need to know.

[SunSeeker]

30. Good question. nt

[Enrique]

26. that's an opportunity

you and your friends have common ground on at least one thing: the GOP sucks.

I listen to quite a bit of RW radio, and one of their biggest propaganda points is that the left and right are in a civil war and the two sides are irreconcilable. It's clear the thing they fear the most is for ordinary liberals and conservatives to find common ground. If we did, then the GOP would never win another election.

[patrice]

32. Bingo! "irreconncilable" The oppressor wants us to think there 2 and only 2 things possible & anyone

who says another thing, that COULD be ANYTHING, is also possible, that person is a "bad person". All/any THIRD thing is bad unless it's MINE, which to me is just a repetition of the errors of the two previous factors and which also, because it is a minority position, has a strong tendency toward fascism.

[calimary]

34. What I always seem to get is "wellll... I don't know... "

That's when you know their brains have gone "TILT!"

"Welllll... I don't know..."

That's when I know I hit a soft spot and they have no comeback.

And when I get the "both sides are messed up" or "well, both sides do it" then I POUNCE.

OH YEAH???? WHO IS IT that tried to suppress the vote - to TAKE AWAY THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE TO VOTE?!?!?!????" Was that the Democrats?
WHO IS IT who tried to force vaginal probes into women's bodies against their will? Were any Democrats pushing that one?
Who's denying climate change all the time? Do you hear or see ANY Democrats doing that?
Who's trying to butt in on gynecologists' offices? Is it the Democrats leading that one? ANY Democrats leading that one? Which ones, 'eh? Name me ONE.
Who are the ones always saying 'NO, NO NO NO NO' to every idea and proposal that comes up - even many of THEIR OWN IDEAS AND PROPOSALS???
Which party is it that's supporting fucking RACISTS who go around holding protest signs showing The President Of The United States with a bone through his nose? Any Democrats? Tell me which ones.

And I tailor it by whomever I'm arguing with.
WHO's the party trying to keep you from having your kid stay covered on your health insurance?
WHICH party is it that doesn't want you to be able to stay covered - and allow your insurance company to decide when they've paid out enough when you're still sick or injured???
WHICH party is blocking the funding that your community needs to fix that delapidated bridge down the road from your house???? Is it REALLY the Democrats piling on that, too?
You live in Tornado Alley - which party is it that is begrudging YOU GUYS disaster aid? Any Democrats on that one? Or is it all republi-CONS?
WHICH party is it that doesn't give a damn that you (female) don't get paid what the guy next to you gets paid even though you're both doing the same job and you've been there longer? Tell me which party that is!!! Democrats? Or is it the GOP?
WHICH party is trying to protect the rich and screw the poor - even during times like these of really great need????
WHICH party is it that doesn't want to make the rich pay a few dollars more in taxes to help support their country as their patriotic duty in her time of need - AND WE'RE STILL AT WAR, TOO, BTW, IN CASE YOU FORGOT, when most of 'em have more money than God??? Which Democrats are on that one? Can you name me any?
WHICH PARTY IS IT that's nickeling and diming our veterans up the ying-yang when they come home all fucked up from a war that we were LIED INTO??? WHICH PARTY IS THAT???? IS THAT BOTH SIDES???? REALLY????? YOU tell ME.

That's when I usually get either flat-out silence or that ol' fallback "...welllll... I don't know... "

And that one's usually muttered under one's breath, so you kinda have to listen for it.

I, for one, am SICK TO DEATH of hearing that old canard - "both sides! Both sides! Both sides are doing it! They're both for shit!" NO, THEY AREN'T!!! Both sides are NOT doing shit like this!!! And I'm tired of hearing it. That's lazy and ill-informed talk you're hearing when someone says that to you. It means they're NOT thinking, they're NOT reasoning, they're NOT paying attention, they're NOT keeping track, and all they're doing is watching Pox Noise and regurgitating false and distorted and agenda-driven talking points they hear repeatedly. They're NOT thinking critically. Hell, if they WERE thinking critically and paying attention and keeping track of what's going on in the news, they'd be watching something other than Pox Noise in the first place.

So I strike. I don't let that one go. I feel like I HAVE TO confront - and correct the record. 'Cause if they ARE getting all that dreck from Pox Noise, then they are NOT hearing anything to counter it from any other sources. They're NOT hearing anything but the propaganda and nothing from the reality-side to counter or check it. And I think they need to. ESPECIALLY since they won't hear it even if they watch CNN or most of the other outlets, many times including MSNBC. This is a theme that is NOT widely expressed. Most of the reporters and anchors out there haven't gotten to that point of enlightenment and acknowledgement or recognition of reality. And it's just much easier to blow it all off by saying "meh, both sides. Both sides!" So nobody REALLY gets what's happening and who's genuinely at fault. I think that's why republi-CONS can keep getting away with being elected and reelected. Nobody remembers, nobody's told, nobody's enlightened, nobody's breaking through the bullshit and telling the truth. So if I'm there and somebody's spraying this shit at me, then I feel like I might as well do something about it. If they start spouting this brainless robotic shit, then I think they better be able to defend it. Because it's not one bit true.

And SOMEBODY has to be there to debunk the crap and set the record straight, and KEEP it set straight, especially since we can't depend on the media to report responsibly and do it on their own. Who knows? If you try it, YOURS might be the very first visit to reality that your friend or neighbor or relative has had a glimpse of, yet.

Aw crap - sorry this is so long...

[SHRED]

49. nice!

[Festivito]

35. After 20 seconds: "Oh, I don't really know that much."

We got to Benghazi and I said it started at 942PM Benghazi time, 342 PM in Washington DC. 17 minutes later a drone was redirected to Benghazi. It would take an hour to arrive.

They were all aghast as I continued. I got a, "I didn't know that."

Thank you DU.

[patrice]

36. As much as Ben Afleck & Matt Damon want to pretend otherwise: there ARE BAD PEOPLE in the world.

I will NEVER forget the photos that showed up here on DU that night of the residents of Behghazi standing in their streets very solemnly & with great dignity, holding their little home made signs, expressing their sadness for Ambassador Stevens.

[Festivito]

37. A little memorizing the Pentagon report and no one could say:

"Oh, I just think they could have done more."

That thought fell flat.

BTW, there's good in all people. There's just not enough time to find it in some.

[patrice]

38. TIME is a crucial factor in all of this. How do we preserve as much value as we can

and make the most necessary changes that we can, for the future, younger generations will need all of the resources we can preserve for them and the best "new" opportunities we can manage and that includes IN THE WORLD.

It's an especially hard thing to do because we must not repeat our old mistakes and there is every sort of thing (3rd, 4th, 5th and on...) out there trying to make use of that old violent inertia, because it's the most power that there is.

[Festivito]

39. Our understanding, wants, desires, ... are limited by time.

In the mean time, it is important to have a piece of pie.

And, if time permits, plan a little.

[patrice]

40. I honestly do think that's possible. That's why some of what we're seeing is so frustrating.

One of the biggest mistakes is TTE, "There's not enough for everyone" when, in fact, there is; we have just been pretty in-attentive about what we are doing with it all, so there IS a piper to pay.

[Festivito]

42. We have made major voting mistakes as a country.

Oh well, the piper must be payed.

I hope we finish those payments soon.

Forget the pie. I'm off to eat cake.

[patrice]

43. Happy New Year, Festivito!

[Festivito]

48. Happy New Year back at you, Patrice.

[JI7]

41. i said this before , i see this shit all the time , go online to non political forums

and if you go to a general discussion type thread which might be discussing politics you will come across so many of these types.