General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsChained CPI off the table.
Waiting to hear why Obama sucks and stuff.
You know, for making those Social Security cuts.
That are off the table.
And stuff.
Wheeeeeee! It's DU!
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Tell me, when do we get to put "The Empire" on the table?
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Reid shot it down. Stabenow announced on MSNBC that the attempt was made.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)and when the pubs fell apart, he immediately took it off the table.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)The President did not OK it as part of a deal today.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)leftstreet
(36,108 posts)bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)which would have negated their effects for those who relied most on benefits, and raised taxes a bit on the higher incomes in compensation.
As a negotiation strategy, its the same sort of thing the president did the last go around - offer the other side something they said they wanted, but clearly packaged with what it would cost them.
Thank you bhikkhu, hopefully some people will read and comprehend your post.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)That would be helpful, thanks.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)or at least not that I have ever seen. Much as in the earlier debt-ceiling negotiations, we have little more than leaks and rumors of leaks, speculation, perhaps some false-flag operations, and a statement or two with partial context.
I know you're not the trusting sort (as I apparently am), but the president has been very clear about his approach to Social Security, and I don't believe he will act against his principles. And I don't believe the other side, even on their very best day, is capable of out-maneuvering Obama or our side into any disadvantageous agreement.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)From the WH pages read, "Guiding Principles - Strengthening and Protecting Social Security" - http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/seniors-and-social-security . The thought and intentions there are pretty self-evident.
And the same basic principles are repeated over and over, in the weekly addresses, in talks to the AARP, etc. Obama is willing to "tweak" Social Security, but rejects any major changes, and rejects anything that would impact those most in need.
If you look at this good article on how chained CPI would work - http://swampland.time.com/2012/12/19/obama-social-security-offer-at-odds-with-top-dems/ then you can make some safe assumptions. As it would involve a creeping tax increase, 60 billion or so over 10 years, and a creeping benefit decrease of about 102 billion in social security, then it would be fairly straightforward to make it revenue neutral by tweaking the tax codes for those most dependent on Social Security (the 50% or so who rely on it as a primary source of income). That is one way to do it, though lacking details there are probably other technical ways as well. The stated goal is that the money-in-pocket of those in need is not on the table at all - it can't be touched.
There is some reading between the lines, as we have no details of the president's proposal. What we do have is an assurance that it won't impact those most in need, and we have Boehner's rejection of it. The most likely reason I can think that he would reject it is that it was packaged with changes he wouldn't tolerate - essentially raising taxes to support those most in need. Again - that's what the president has repeatedly stated as his objective for at least a year.
Ellipsis
(9,124 posts)*grin*
Home sweet home.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)The minute Boehner turned it down before Christmas. Every offer has gotten smaller and smaller, one by one. The republicans look like fools in the face of a man who gave his best offer first, last year. They were too stupid to see it.
that is it in a nutshell. Smart people would have taken his first offer. But our POTUS knows he is dealing with very greedy and shallow people.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Okay but you may not like it.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)evaporated.
We don't know whether the next one will be the same, similar, or different.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)care for a holiday truffle?
the ruby and sapphire sprinkles create such a good presentation for this time of year.
spanone
(135,841 posts)buzzroller
(67 posts)debt ceiling increase, but the good news is that the headline was about the GOP asking for the Chained CPI and then backing off.
daa
(2,621 posts)People hear want they want to ear. The guy hasn't been sworn in for a second term and is selling us out. Listen to the weasel words. Obama on MTP I offered cuts, Pelosi chained CPI I can sell, and Reid at ths time. Where do you people come up with no cuts and off he table?
off the table for now but not for debt ceiling debate. What about that do you disagree with?
plethoro
(594 posts)be "means testing." I just wonder what "mean" level Obama will negotiate with.
Skraxx
(2,977 posts)He's a terrorist for even having hypothetical discussions about possibly, maybe, sorta, kinda including it in a deal!
And oh yeah! He actually REALLY sucks for this other thing that I've always been saying he sucks about too!
pasto76
(1,589 posts)funny stuff
leveymg
(36,418 posts)It wasn't even relevant to The Cliff. It will reappear, however, soon. Then, will you give Obama credit for advancing the idea?
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)I know, not likely
There was no way a Republican could ever put SS on the table Looks like we're watching a party shift that won't make the history books for years
leveymg
(36,418 posts)recommendations that would have also privatized the SS Trust fund and thrown it to Wall Street just before the Dot.Com Bubble burst. Glad it didn't go anywhere back then, too. But, they keep trying . . .
Autumn
(45,096 posts)with the Democrats that the CPI was not appropriate for a quick deal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/us/politics/obama-accuses-republicans-of-blocking-tax-deal.html?_r=1&
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Autumn
(45,096 posts)want to do to raise the debt ceiling. SS has nothing to do with these "financial problems" yet both sides are using it as a tool. Disgusting.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)I would say that 1+1+1=Change to Chained CPI is imminent once budget talks resume. This is just a precursor to get the idea/term out there. The media will buffer it for a while, and then it will be brought out again I'm pretty sure.
Autumn
(45,096 posts)The one thing I do want to mention is were not going to have any Social Security cuts at this stage. That just doesnt seem appropriate, Reid said. Were willing to make difficult concessions as part of a balanced, comprehensive agreement, but will not agree to cut Social Security benefits as part of a smaller, short-term agreement, especially if that agreement gives more handouts to the rich.
Now that paragraph says to me that the CPI or some type of cuts will be used, down the road. Maybe as soon as we all shut up and forget about it.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)I'm sure they hope we will but we won't shut up or forget about it.
Autumn
(45,096 posts)the chained CPI will be back over our heads in a couple of months.
banned from Kos
(4,017 posts)Not good for them.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Hekate
(90,708 posts)Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)in the first place.
And I would agree with him, as would many others.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)What is an Emo Prog?
Hekate
(90,708 posts)Made me laugh -- sounds just like home.
Hekate
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=emo%20prog
Note: This term was seen as divisive and has been superseded by Puritopian.
Emo Progressive (or "emoprog" is a self-described liberal or progressive, often with libertarian leanings, whose political orientation is to be angry, dissatisfied and unhappy with the state of the nation at any given time, because in their view, liberal policies are not being implemented quickly or forcefully enough. They have particular contempt for Democratic presidents.
Emoprogs are ideological purists who disdain compromise and incremental change, which they see as "selling out" liberal ideas like full employment, an end to all wars, state secrets, and liberal social policy.
Emoprogs dislike Republicans but reserve their greatest disdain for Democratic presidents, whom they relentlessly attack for not meeting a set of ideological goal posts that are constantly adjusted to ensure that the president will be deemed a disappointment, "not progressive enough" or "just like a Republican" no matter what policy achievements are made.
Emoprogs routinely dismiss or ignore congress' role in making or impeding policy, believing presidents can simply "use the bully pulpit" and "fight" in order to overcome constitutional or legislative obstacles. Emoprogs have a strong affinity for 3rd party politics as a way to punish Democratic presidents. They are especially hostile to President Obama and deem anyone who expresses a lack of ill will toward him to be "Obamabots" and enemies of liberalism.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Wow ... this is only the 6th or 6th time in the last 4 years where that prediction has been wrong.
Oh well ... maybe they'll be right next time.
Autumn
(45,096 posts)Good thing.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)This kind of reminds me of when Obama gave the order to take out OBL ... my right wing friends gave him no credit for that.
Some seem to be taking a similar stance here as well.
But again, the predictions here on DU that Obama is about to kill SS have been a regular occurrence during the last 4 years.
Here it comes, any second .... and then ... nope.
Obama's evil plan fails again I guess.
banned from Kos
(4,017 posts)can't think of the word though - starts with "w".
Autumn
(45,096 posts)I'm just glad they finally agreed with the Democratic Senators that the CPI was not appropriate for a quick deal. However regarding your complaint about the predictions here on DU, Obama did offer the CPI to them. So I'm just glad the evil plan failed. No matter who's plan it was.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)shanti
(21,675 posts)WE KEPT HIS FEET TO THE FIRE (like he asked us to)! I called my congresscritters and sounded off about it. He had to have heard.
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)But it will be back on the table when it's time to raise the debt ceiling. Republicans realize that they cannot win an argument that it's better to screw seniors to cut taxes. But they have a much stronger hand on the argument that the cut is necessary rather than add to the national debt.
Still, I am glad to see that the chained CPI will not be the price of avoiding the cliff, because if they won on that now they'd be able to extract more draconian cuts when it's time to raise the debt ceiling.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,742 posts)This is after one minute reading the front page.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,742 posts)Others include predictable, disgusting and so on in that vein.
Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)buzzroller
(67 posts)Marco Rubio @marcorubio
Report that #GOP insisting on changes to social security as part of #fiscalcliff false.BTW those changes are supported by @barackobama
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)And I thought we'd already hit bottom.
Nope.
buzzroller
(67 posts)They are fighting over ownership and it was a retweet by Joe Trippi of Rubio.
buzzroller
(67 posts)Chained CPI on the Dems
spanone
(135,841 posts)bama_blue_dot
(224 posts)Rubio is just trying to keep himself out of the fray so he can run in 2016..
tjwash
(8,219 posts)And believe me...the bar has been placed verrrrrrrry low for that sort of behavior here lately.
buzzroller
(67 posts)that quoting a potential GOP candidate trying to unfairly shift the blame for Chained CPI is scumbag. Please explain.
Cha
(297,275 posts)"And, now repubs are denying they proposed the C CPI"
Brian Fallon
@brianefallon MT @jamespmanley For the record- repub senators like rubio denying that they wanted the cpi change-um, well, they are not telling the truth
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2099069
It gets a little confusing around here sometimes.. Welcome to DU, buzzroller
for getting it
forestpath
(3,102 posts)He did that just today, in fact.
tjwash
(8,219 posts)Keep trying reverend...you will probably never get it right, but, you look fabulous trying at least!
forestpath
(3,102 posts)has actually said.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)But a few of us are funny that way.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)you are thinking of Romney
forestpath
(3,102 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)ecstatic
(32,705 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)CheapShotArtist
(333 posts)all the despair posts and the "Obama is going to cut Social Security" threads are just hella annoying. Like another DUer said, it's kinda feeling like the Tea Party-LEFT on here. I lurked on some of the older threads, and this same shit happened back when the Prez. first got elected in '08. People back then were going on and on about him wanting to cut the safety net and how he's "to the right of Reagan", and yet it never happened.
If he really wanted to cut those programs, I would imagine he would've done that a long time ago. At least wait and see what happens before mouthing off.
Cha
(297,275 posts)Not sure you're living up to your username, though.
serbbral
(260 posts)THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! I was thinking the same. No one knows what's going to happen. People need to wait and see, before jumping to conclusions.
Panasonic
(2,921 posts)before they have to fight to meet the Broncos at the AFC Championship
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The fact that CPI was on the table in the first place is very troubling.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Today has been quite exciting, hasn't it? This morning we see Obama on MTP, tell the American people he was willing to make cuts to SS. This afternoon, we see Republicans claiming to have saved SS from the chopping block. Boehner is refusing to bring Obama's proposals to a vote! What a masterful negotiation!
PS: Don't ask Manny for that dinner, yet. Let's see what happens when Republicans dangle the debt ceiling chip.
"The idea was if you are going to do debt ceiling, you would then do chained CPI," the Democratic aide said, speaking anonymously because talks are ongoing and extremely sensitive. "They can only ask us to make that concession in that pairing. We are not going to do anything with chained CPI now [without a debt ceiling deal]. That's a poison pill."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/30/fiscal-cliff_n_2384726.html
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)FUCK! Help me out here, Will! What else am I missing?
CheapShotArtist
(333 posts)to the right of Nixon, center-right, puppet, wolf in sheep's clothing...I've heard all of this about the Prez. within the past few days on DU.
Hekate
(90,708 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Hekate
(90,708 posts)He's had four years to do the dirty deed, and he has not done it. Nor will he.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The PROBLEM is that Daddy is gambling with the Rent Money.
This is NOT the first time he had pushed Social Security into the Pot.
Rep. Conyers: Obama Demanded Social Security Cuts--Not GOP
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Rep-Conyers-Obama-Demand-by-Jeanine-Molloff-110729-352.html
Push it into the pot enough times,
and one day, it doesn't come back.
Famous Last Words:
"But it looked like a sure WIN!"
The Untouchable 3rd rail of the Democratic Party,
the "Touch This and You DIE" cornerstone of the modern Democratic Party,
has been reduced to Just-Another-Chip in the Big Game.
The Rubicon has been crossed.
What once was taboo,
is no longer.
In and of itself, THAT represents a HUGE step toward the Conservative Right.
It doesn't matter if Daddy wins THIS time,
the precedent has been set.
The precedent established by the New Democrat Centrist Party:
Social Security WILL be On-the-Table NOW,
and in every future Budget or Deficit negotiation,
until it is GONE.
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)jaysunb
(11,856 posts)negotiations ? It won't be Obama or Democrats.
The republicans are painted into a corner....
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)but they will not include it with the short term fix because it would be far too hard to sell to the public that way. They will hold it off until budget negotiations in the new congress and it will likely be implemented then.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)to begin with.
why this simple concept is something so many alleged "smart people" struggle with is a very deep mystery. It's almost like you have to be a brain scientist of a rocket surgeon to figure it out or something.
not
It's kinda like putting a buffalo chip on the table instead of a ham or turkey at a meal for the homeless, and then defending the poor taste nature of it.
just because it was subsequently taken off for whatever reason/s doesn't change a damn thing in terms of the nature, character, or the thinking of he/she/those who put it there, much less make critical conclusions of that sort regarding the action "unreasonable".
and no line of buffalo chip is gonna rebut that
Cha
(297,275 posts)not in on the negotiations, are you? You have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)but who needs to be to know that buffalo chips have no business being on the table.
Chained-CPI is to seniors what buffalo chips are to human nutrition. They can both be force-fed, but are hardly good for those left no choice but to eat them.
Cha
(297,275 posts)our Dem Leaders do their work.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)CPI was needlessly put on the deficit cutting table
As any schoolchild of reasonable intelligence could easily discern, that if it was taken off the table, the most plausible explanation is that it didn't pass the smell test, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/fiscal-cliff-social-security-chained-cpi_n_2251903.html as buffalo chips rarely do except to the willfully olfactory sense-challenged.
His willingness alone to put it one the table is ammo the rightwingnuts can use, and they likely will, much as they used the threat in 2010 to their benefit with the gray vote -- the most gullible voting block of the single-issue kind. Apparently you think it was just stupid Tea Baggers that bought into the rightwingnut noise on the matter -- their hypocrisy on the matter notwithstanding
In the 2010 election, when purported threats to the Medicare program related to Democratic policy initiatives had been prominent during the 18 months prior to the election, this pattern changed. For instance, voters aged 65 and olderthe age group eligible for Medicaregave 59% of their votes to Republican candidates compared with only 51% of those aged 6064. Other data from the 2010 election reinforce this simple indication that voters in the oldest age group were concerned about the future of the Medicare program.http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/763629
That's what I called/predicted in 2009 when BHO first made a lot of noise about "reforms".
But its the signature program that makes the American people think of the Democrats as Santa Claus. And the number one priority of the Republican strategists is to get a Democratic President to take a shot at Santa Claus. Since FDR brought us Social Security not one single Democratic president has ever, in the history of the republic, suggested shooting or even nicking the Social Security Santa Claus. Until Obama. http://www.alternet.org/economy/explaining-pure-cruelty-obamas-gimmick-chained-cpi-simple-language
but only because BC's lust derailed his efforts to change things http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/05/29/the-pact-between-bill-clinton-and-newt-gingrich
and you'd better hope I'm "wrong", because this is the most likely scenario of the buffalo chip/turd-covered slippery slope it'll be
President Obama has brought into his negotiations with Republicans an offer to cut more out of Social Security than he would cut out of the bloated Pentagon budget. So hes supporting the Republicans Santa Claus and shooting the Democrats Santa Claus. And, like with Clinton and welfare, this will just be the beginning, once the first cut is made. Eventually, the bloody carcass of Social Security will be swept up by right-wing cons like Peterson, Simpson, and Bowles, and handed over with a bow and a ribbon to the billionaires on Wall Street.
meanwhile, my initial point remains wholly intact and unrebutted
Who's "mumbling" here? Not me, but apparently you struggle either with plain and simple english, or formulating, composing, posting, and defending a valid argument.
I run into that a lot around here.
Let them do what work -- putting crap on the table or the actual law books that have no business there, like chained-cpi, warrantless wiretapping, etc, etc, etc?
You're free to be an apologist for or an enabler of anything you want, but your condescension in this case, or even more abrasive ridicule and scorn won't obscure your guilt of it, it just leaves those like me deciding whether to be amused, disgusted, or both, by it.
I think BHO should put the repeal of the National Labor Relations Act on the table too, and make the at-wiill doctrine the law of the land again. That would at least be part of the rightwingnut fascists wet dream, no? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2012/12/14/federal-unions-sacrifices-for-deficit-reduction-took-toll-in-best-places-to-work-survey/
Then they could silence voices they've long wanted silenced, kinda like some have wanted all those BHO critizers around here, no?
ecstatic
(32,705 posts)Sometimes you have to say things, anything it takes, to neutralize him/her.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)explain to the readers here how that disarmed or "neutralized" Boner.
If it's a psycho he's negotiating with, it's more like offering Norman Bates a smaller knife than the one he's wielding and has already used, with the expectation he'll give it up and end his killing ways.
Hekate
(90,708 posts)Thanks, Will.
spanone
(135,841 posts)bwahahahahahahaaa
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)If DU didn't get into a frothing holy mess about things that are yet to happen, it would be an awfully boring place.
Sid
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Hekate
(90,708 posts)Let's hope for better in the New Year.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"That's just what Jesus said, Sir!"
great white snark
(2,646 posts)I hope someone tells me what I should be worried about soon...biting nails in anticipation.
Owl
(3,642 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)they had to.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Such as there are certain selfish, uncaring people that want to starve seniors and shovel big bucks to big war.
kansasobama
(609 posts)Guys..
We have to keep fighting. Yes, Obama won. But, we have to let him know that we helped him win. It is part of democracy. It is ok if he proposed it. It all depends on how it is done. If Bush tax cuts for the rich stay, we just cannot let that happen. But, we need to put pressure on Congress.
Already, the so called-500000 compromise is a bad deal. We will take some hits but we have to fight. I am blasting emails to white house and Congress.
Ram
tavalon
(27,985 posts)during the winter, I go to bed at the light of day and wake up at twilight. Too much night.
Do you have a link for that? I've been waiting and hoping for this.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here in California, we had a referendum with two choices, either raise taxes on everyone more or raise taxes on everyone less and on the rich a lot more.
The majority voted to raise the taxes on the rich a lot more.
That is the mood of the country. We are tired of seeing ordinary people lose their homes while the rich cavort in the Caymans.
This is not so much just about personal interest. Most of us have neither lost our homes nor cavorted in the Caymans. This is about fairness and justice for all.
When we demand justice for all, we are no different from the brilliant men, our forefathers, who founded this nation.
indepat
(20,899 posts)social security benefits or offer a tax plan that benefits large corporations and the two percent to the detriment of all the rest (pure classic right wing regressive taxation). Surely not
Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)
Post removed
JEB
(4,748 posts)No one, Puke of Dem that I have heard or read has explained what is good about Chained CPI. All I know is it cuts the amount of needed money that goes to Grandma and disabled people. In other words, a typical Republican scam.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)still has two mountains to climb, huh? All of you quislings are beyond understanding. Go Obama, my President and proud to say it even if you don't see it that way or agree, I don't care anymore. The man is a genius and got reelected as my President. Light years away from that jerk who stole two elections. He stared em down and they blinked.
mzmolly
(50,993 posts)weighed in?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)If they don't cut SS and we still don't know until Jan 1. If they don't cut SS it will be because people let their congressmen know they didn't want cuts to SS. Sitting around just believing in our politicians like Santa Claus does not produce true representation. True representation means we tell our politicians what we want them to do or not to do and they do it. And if they don't cut SS and the automatic spending cuts take affect people will be affected. Will they restore the cuts to say education after the negotiations start back up after the sequester? There are serious issues that we have to address not just wish will appear out of thin air. But if winning and gloating over the republicans and your fellow democrats is more fun then go ahead. Us grown ups will do the business of making sure our politicians do the work we ask of them.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Transcript:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50314590/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/t/december-president-barack-obama-tom-brokaw-jon-meacham-doris-kearns-goodwin-david-brooks-chuck-todd
Thankfully, Harry Reid is still a Democrat.
Autumn
(45,096 posts)http://boldprogressives.org/victory-harry-reid-says-he-will-not-agree-to-cut-social-security-benefits/
The one thing I do want to mention is were not going to have any Social Security cuts at this stage. That just doesnt seem appropriate, Reid said. Were willing to make difficult concessions as part of a balanced, comprehensive agreement, but will not agree to cut Social Security benefits as part of a smaller, short-term agreement, especially if that agreement gives more handouts to the rich.
"were not going to have any Social Security cuts at this stage." "as part of a smaller, short-term agreement"
I think that chained CPI is coming. Obama and Harry are willing to do it. Just waiting for the right time.