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gulliver

(14,152 posts)
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:24 PM 4 hrs ago

Many of my neighbors are Jews

They are always friendly. Always engaged. Always putting up pro-Democratic signs.

I had a roommate who was Jewish. I worked with Jews, befriended them. All really cool people.

I see Jewphobia on the rise, and it breaks my heart. It's unacceptable. I'm opposed to any Jewphobe, automatically.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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mopinko

(74,225 posts)
10. no, but it sure gives a lot of them permission.
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:57 PM
3 hrs ago

and i dont see ppl just opposing bibi. it’s apparently fine to oppose the country, and all the ppl in it.
that’s hate.

mainer

(12,636 posts)
2. it's heartbreaking how opposition to Zionism is spreading anger against all Jews
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:27 PM
4 hrs ago

The Jewish friends I have are all fervently anti-Bibi and appalled by IDF actions.

hlthe2b

(115,156 posts)
6. Yes. More fervent than I about Bibi and the direction he has taken Israel...
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:41 PM
4 hrs ago

Conflating the latter with antisemitism is incredibly problematic-- self-defeating to the goal of fighting true hate directed at Jewish people. Most see that. Not all.

mopinko

(74,225 posts)
7. antizionism is jew hate.
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:55 PM
3 hrs ago

sorry, it is. oppose the war, oppose bibi, but oppose the country? yeah, no.
israel exists. zionism is over. do u want to see it destroyed? cuz that’s what that word means.

mainer

(12,636 posts)
11. Here is the definition of Zionism, according to Wikipedia
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:59 PM
3 hrs ago

"Zionism[a] is an ethnocultural nationalist[1] movement that emerged in late 19th-century Europe to establish and support a Jewish homeland through colonization in the region of Palestine,[2] which roughly corresponds to the Land of Israel in Judaism—itself central to Jewish history.[3] Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[4][5]"

One can certainly oppose this movement without being antiSemitic.

mopinko

(74,225 posts)
13. that is the worst wiki i have ever seen.
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:03 PM
3 hrs ago

that is just blatant propaganda w almost no basis in history.

mopinko

(74,225 posts)
14. also- that movement is over. israel exists. so what does opposing it mean?
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:04 PM
3 hrs ago

push the jews onto the sea?

mainer

(12,636 posts)
15. It's not about questioning Israel's existence
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:13 PM
3 hrs ago

It's about objecting to the erasure and dehumanization of Palestinians.

mopinko

(74,225 posts)
16. do u condemn hamas?
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:28 PM
3 hrs ago

cuz they’re the 1 whose charter calls for the extermination of the jews.
they’re the 1s who have been offered many peace plans and either refused them or literally blew them up.

as always, lies about the jews r rampant. esp lies about the history.
read more.

mainer

(12,636 posts)
19. Of course I condemn them
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:52 PM
2 hrs ago

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t. But that doesn’t excuse the erasure of Palestinians.

AloeVera

(4,616 posts)
21. "Read more".
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 05:49 PM
1 hr ago

Yes....

Here is some good reading, recommended by respected historians and academics. I recommend The 100 Years War on Palestine, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and Tolerance Is A Wasteland to start.

https://theconversation.com/10-books-to-help-you-understand-israel-and-palestine-recommended-by-experts-217783

Nanjeanne

(6,805 posts)
17. "Israel: What Went Wrong?": Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov & Gideon Levy Debate Zionism
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:36 PM
3 hrs ago

Last edited Tue Jun 23, 2026, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

You might find it interesting and enlightening.

Bartov says the early Zionist movement had liberatory intentions, aiming to emancipate the persecuted Jewish minority in Europe and modeling itself after other contemporary ethnonationalist movements. He then argues that while Israel had the opportunity to “become a normal state” and “issue a constitution that would provide equality to all its citizens, would define its borders and create a legal framework” that could also acknowledge and redress the Nakba, it chose another path. Instead of remedying its foundational violence, he says, the modern Israeli state has become increasingly “militaristic, centralized, expansionist, racist and, as we’ve seen since October 2023, genocidal.” Though Bartov does not identify as an anti-Zionist, he says Israel “must discard Zionism, it must put it on the garbage heap of history, and it must redefine itself, going all the way back to 1948.”

Levy, on the other hand, says Zionism has never been reformable, because the movement, from its very beginning, “started wrong, without the belief or the conviction that we can live together.” He contests Bartov’s assertion that early Zionist intentions became warped over the 20th century, and says instead that the violent dispossession of Palestinians is embedded into the premise of the movement. “This very same attitude, this very same policy never stopped ever since ’48,” Levy contends. His latest piece in Haaretz is titled “Zionism Didn’t Go Wrong, It Was Always Built This Way.”


OMER BARTOV: Yeah, that’s a good question. Look, as I was trying to say, I think if you understand Zionism as the claim the Jews made already in the late 19th century that Jews, like all other people, have the right of self-determination, while I myself — and I’ve written two books on that — am not a great supporter of nationalism, if you make that claim, then you have to be consistent. That is, if you support the right of self-determination for Jews, you would support it for anyone else, including, of course, for Palestinians. The one right you do not have with self-determination is to exercise it while oppressing or removing others from the land that you claim to be your own. So, I would not define myself as anti-Zionist, in the sense that I think that all groups, including Jews, have a right of self-determination.

I do think, however, that Zionism, as it has evolved and what it has become now, is no longer supportable. I don’t think that one can reform it anymore. And I think that the state of Israel, if it wants to become again a normal state, if it wants to be a member of the international community, it must discard Zionism, it must put it on the garbage heap of history, and it must redefine itself, going all the way back to 1948. In other words, it has to find a way, together with Palestinians, of how these two groups that live there — 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians — how they can share the space.


LEVY: The second remark, which in my view is more important, is the belief of Omer that Zionism was very justified and had good reasons, a legitimacy, and Israel has a legitimacy, and then something went wrong, while I’m claiming that from the very beginning Zionism took a wrong direction, because the Jews who came to Palestine, like my parents and Omer’s parents, had no other place to go, and it was for them a real safe haven. It was a real — the only place they can rescue themselves. But this could have been done in a different way. You don’t come to a neighborhood and turn your back to the people who lived there centuries before you. And what Zionism did from the very beginning — not it went wrong, it started wrong — without the belief or the conviction that we can live together. Zionism never really tried to [inaudible] Palestinians. It was always to conquer them, to transfer them, to take their jobs, to take their lives, to take their properties, in order to become the only people who lives between the river and the sea. And here, we really differ, because not something went wrong, something started wrong.


https://www.democracynow.org/2026/5/15/omer_bartov_gideon_levy_israel_zionism]

The whole discussion is absolutely fascinating and thoughtful and informative. Of course one would have to want to hear such honest discussion by two award winning Jewish scholars.

Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #17)

MineralMan

(152,011 posts)
4. Many of my neighbors are Muslims.
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:33 PM
4 hrs ago

I could say the same about them. Almost all who can vote vote for Democrats. I also have many Hmong neighbors. They also vote for Democrats. Most of them who are Christian are protestants. Others adhere to traditional religious beliefs, about which i know very little.

Anti-Islamic prejudice is out there, too. Again, a similar situation, and often, it's the same people who are antisemitic. Anti-Hmong sentiment also runs strong and again, from the same people who hate Jews and Muslims. Maybe the rest of us should try to get along, eh?

Isn't that interesting?

LetMyPeopleVote

(183,810 posts)
9. I am Jewish and I am worried about antisemitism
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 03:57 PM
3 hrs ago

Antisemitism is on the rise and I am scared.

mopinko

(74,225 posts)
12. this war is allowing the haters to step out of the shadows.
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:01 PM
3 hrs ago

i live in a very jewish area. my admiration for the community here is boundless.
this shit never made sense to me, but i guess hate only makes sense to haters.

the part where so much that is being said is the same old shit w a new coat of paint is just 🙄🙄🙄

TVguyCards

(73 posts)
20. I'm hesitant to wade into this conversation
Tue Jun 23, 2026, 04:52 PM
2 hrs ago

At this stage so late in the game I don't see this conversation being beneficial.
People will have their minds made up and thoughts alongside opinions are rock solid and unchangeable over the actions Israel is committing. It's very sad what's happening on now all 3 sides of the aisle which now includes Lebanon.

My personal beliefs and opinion is this --
Bibi is a war criminal and should be sent to The Hague. His actions are not reflective of the Jewish people as a whole and it's awful how some can't separate the 2. Sadly what's now happening in Lebanon is making it worse and of course is so is the settler violence happening in places like the Golan Heights.

I wish people would come together in solidarity to make the lives of others better. If people changed their positioning from hate to love with true dedication to ending things like poverty in the name of humanity the world would be a much kinder and nicer place.

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