Thoughts on gender motivated abortions?

[TXDem72]

In cases of gender motivated abortions, of course, there is the micro issue of preserving the life of the fetus versus reproductive rights. However, there is also the macro issue of artificially distorting gender ratios in societies, which can potentially cause a whole host of problems.

I would like to solicit views on this topic.

[Fumesucker]

1. ...

[The Magistrate]

2. Oh, Yeah....

[leftstreet]

13. LOL

[msanthrope]

16. I have never loved you more, than at this moment. nt

[Terra Alta]

22. ...

[Hekate]

62. Oh, Sir! Your wit stings like a rawhide lash

[yellerpup]

3. None of my business.

I think it's a dangerous road to take in the macro sense, but it's up to the woman.

[bemildred]

4. I think it's tacky, but no threat to the species. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. it's too bad women/girls aren't valued. Blocking their access to abortions doesn't help anything.

[eltopomaravilloso]

6. An abortion is a woman's right.

And that can never be questioned or abridged, so although it sounds mean to me, they have to be allowed.

[MrSlayer]

7. That's a shitty reason to have an abortion.

Intentionally getting pregnant and then terminating it for no other reason than gender is not why abortion is tolerated in society.

Her body, her choice. But what an ugly, selfish choice that is. It's pretty disgusting.

[CTyankee]

9. Well, we really don't know why women make the decisions they make...

even if we ask, a woman might just not tell you the real reason, if gender selection was that reason. Or they might think they can't handle another child. Or they need to finish a college degree. Or any of a number of reasons that we may not "approve" of.

Bottom line: women are moral agents and can make these decisions themselves.

[MrSlayer]

25. I'd never ask.

People can do whatever they want. I just find the idea repulsive.

[TexasBushwhacker]

26. There are reasons someone might prefer one gender over another

Most people want boys and girls. A family that's had nothing but boys might want a girl and only a girl. A family that has a sex linked disease like hemophilia or certain kinds of muscular dystrophy may only want to have girls. I realize that most cultures prefer boys over girls,but there are reasons families might chose girls over boys.

[CTyankee]

47. I think we need not mix our own personal stuff against what is a public policy

issue, like sex selection on the basis of sociological trends that may or may not portend dire results to mankind.

I just think it is best to stay away from a woman's personal choice in the intimate matter of their own reproductive health...

[Freddie]

57. The sad part here

Is that in those cultures that do not want female babies, it is often the woman's husband or mother-in-law who forces her to abort. This is a cultural problem that goes way beyond abortion.

[Warpy]

27. It's up to the woman to decide whether or not to risk her life

going through with any pregnancy, whether or not you approve of her or her reasons.

[MrSlayer]

32. But that's the point.

It isn't because her life is at risk. It's merely because she's unhappy with the gender. It's a shitty reason to have an abortion. Selfish and really quite gross.

However, I did twice say that it's the woman's choice.

[Warpy]

40. It's obvious you're male

or you'd know that every pregnancy is life threatening.

[MrSlayer]

55. To an extent, everything is.

Let's not exaggerate the circumstances. I have two kids and at no time was my wife's life ever in danger from being pregnant. In fact, I don't know anyone in my entire circle of family, friends or acquaintances that have either. Of course sometimes complications occur but we aren't living in frontier times where every routine pregnancy might result in death. Using that blanket excuse is merely condoning abhorrent behavior.

But, again, women are free to do what they want. Just don't try to tell me that abortion for gender preference is the same as abortion for health reasons. It's insulting.

Safe, legal and rare is the mantra. Rare, as in only when absolutely necessary. Gender selection does not fit the spirit of why I'm pro-choice. I wouldn't do anything to stop it, there's too many people in the world as it is and restricting for this reason just leads to restriction for all reasons, but I can't see an argument that would convince me that this practice isn't morally reprehensible.

My being male is irrelevant to the conversation.

[Warpy]

61. It's really easy to deny what you will never have to face.

Think about that for a while.

It's that old male entitlement thing that no man realizes he has.

[MrSlayer]

65. Right, of course.

My points cannot possibly have any meaning or truth to them because I haven't got a vagina. What a cheap cop out. Whatever.

[HappyMe]

58. Oh come on.

Leaving the house everyday is also life threatening.

[antigone382]

64. Well, in a sense it can be life threatening, though not in the medical sense.

We talk about choice, but in cultures where sex-selective abortions are common, often the woman's "choice" is illusory. It is more likely the choice of her husband or his family, which she has very little realistic option of challenging without suffering severe consequences, including abandonment that can leave her with no access to the resources that she would need to meet her basic needs, and physical violence to the point of horrific murder. Bride burning (covered up by the family as a "cooking fire&quot comes to mind.

To respond to the OP, I do find the idea of sex selective abortion horrific, and I think it can have profound negative consequences on society. But unfortunately, I think outright making it illegal only puts women at increased risk, and does very little to combat the larger social structures that compel this choice in the first place. Laws and cultures must be changed, and social safety nets must be established to set the stage for a society in which sex selective abortions and other symptoms of female devaluation can be effectively done away with.

Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of change can happen without some discussion of patriarchy and male privilege. Given how difficult it is to discuss these concepts on a liberal discussion board, I can't imagine how difficult it is to discuss them in societies where girls are actively and openly selected for destruction.

[Angry Dragon]

39. +20,216

[cthulu2016]

8. Over time imbalances won't remain, but short term can be quite distorting.

It is almost impossible to have a system of sex-preference survive in the long run because the economic value of a female in marriage will increase when there is a shortage of females.

In a hypothetical society with two men for every woman the economic security of parents would be better gained by reverse dowries for a daughter rather than by the paid labor of a son.

So the perception of the greater economic "worth" of males would not survive, long term, when males become common and females rare.

But great demographic damage could be done in the shorter term of a few generations because the *perception* that males are more valuable can persist, in that way cultural attitudes persist.


As for the ethics of it???

If it is a woman's choice then it is a woman's choice. No woman should have a baby she doesn't want to have... no matter what I might think of her reasons. They are her reasons.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Been some interesting science fiction stories written with this as a background item

IIRC, the women win every time...

[gollygee]

10. Reproductive rights win

in all cases.

Flamebait question, too.

[AzDar]

11. My view? Unless it's your body, it's none of your goddamned business.

Glad to have helped.

[cthulu2016]

12. A nit-pick. The decision to have the child is also gender motivated.

The real decision being made is to have a male, not to abort a female.

Nobody wants to get pregnant and then abort.

[tularetom]

14. I'm totally opposed to men having abortions

Seriously, either you are pro choice or you aren't. So I'd have to say I couldn't oppose it although I sure as hell wouldn't be enthused to hear that it was happening. Especially if it was the sole reason for the abortion.

Seems like a self serving reason to have an abortion. It also sounds like something they might try to enforce in China or someplace where they're trying to limit the number of females in the country.

[msanthrope]

15. Your concern is noted. Please feel free to share more of your concerns, and enjoy your stay. nt

[Terra Alta]

17. her body, her choice.

Yes, aborting a fetus because they're the wrong sex may not be the best reason to abort, but it's still the woman's body and she can do as she chooses. There are even instances where a gender motivated abortion might be recommended, if for instance either parent has a gene that can cause a disorder that only affects one gender, I can see why such an abortion would be needed.

[blogslut]

18. Can you provide measurable occurances of gender-specific abortions in the US?

?

[TXDem72]

30. This is a problem in India and China

Not the US

[JI7]

36. the problem is the treatment of girls/women, not abortion. look at the recent rape case

[blogslut]

68. In other words, those governments have taken control of their female citizen's bodies

The forced birth movement would like that to happen here, in the U.S.

Do you think the U.S. government should take control of its female citizen's bodies?

[Quantess]

19. Choice is choice, and it's not your decision to make.

I think it's a morally reprehensible reason, personally. But, it is a symptom of a disfunctional and backwards culture more than anything.

Edit to add: there may be medical, genetic reasons for it, as suggested above. Sex-linked hereditary disorders, etc.

[Recursion]

20. Making windows into souls is easy...

[Viking12]

21. RW nonsense

enjoy your pizza

[Sheldon Cooper]

24. If you are sincere in your question,

I think that the preference for males in some cultures has led to a distortion in gender ratio. In China and India for example, gender related abortions and female infanticide have led to an imbalance in the ratio of males to females. I think this can lead to societal problems if men aren't able to find women to marry and settle down with.

If you're on a fishing expedition to spread anti-choice thinking, you are in the wrong place. It is always the woman's right to decide when and if she will bear a child.

[TXDem72]

31. I'm firmly pro choice

So of course I won't support restricting choice to deal with this issue.

This is not an issue domestically, but it is in China and India. Philosophically, should we restrict choice if the couple states their reason explicitly for abortion? I would oppose this strongly. Should we prevent couples from finding out the gender of a fetus before birth? I would oppose this generally as well. Maybe funding an education campaign on the stupidity of gender based abortions?

[Sheldon Cooper]

34. If I'm not mistaken, I think gender-specific abortion is forbidden

in India. That does not stop it from happening, though. I really don't know the dynamics in China, I think the gender disparity might be related more to the one-child rule (resulting in more female infanticide) but I'm really not up to date on the status there. Anyway, in America we are a long way from worrying about gender imbalance, so I see no reason to restrict abortion any more than it already is. At this point, there is simply no reason for it to be an issue in the national debate on reproductive rights.

Edited for clarity.

[obamanut2012]

28. Damn, out of popcorn

There is enough heat to make S'Mores. Yum!

[RandiFan1290]

29. I find them shallow and pedantic

[JI7]

33. This issue is about treatment of FEmales, even if you ban abortion

these girls are going to be treated like crap because they are girls.

it is not really about abortion at all.

[CTyankee]

48. oh, good lord. have you even tried to think this through? Read the posts here

for information and education, please. You need more edification, obviously...

[CTyankee]

50. I am not trying to insult you, just asking you to get more information as to why

women have abortions, if you are that interested. If you are not, fine.

[slackmaster]

66. I don't care why women get abortions

I'm sorry if I have not stated that more clearly.

[morningfog]

75. Sure you do. You've earned it.

[cthulu2016]

51. Selfish? Really?

I am trying to think who is being deprived of something the woman has to give... what interests other than her own she should be considering.

[slackmaster]

63. My political position on abortion is 100% pro-choice

You needn't feel threatened by nuance of my aside comment about an abstraction presented in an obvious troll thread..

Lighten up, please.

[GoneOffShore]

37. Flamebait post.

You really don't want to have a discussion, do you?

Are you in the right place?

[LiberalEsto]

38. Wrong unless for medical reasons like hemophilia

Abortion should be rare, safe and legal.

[kestrel91316]

41. Why any particular woman has an abortion is none of my business OR YOURS.

It's private. People need to mind their own business and quit with the panty sniffing.

If that fetus is not yet viable, y'all need to butt out.

[Mimosa]

45. ^ Agree with you ^

The only way the pregnancies of other women would be of legitimate concern to the rest of us would be if government pressured or forced women to have abortions or to stop them from exercising their right to choose.

[cecilfirefox]

71. Abortions motivated by gender or other similar factors are of legitimate concern to society. nt

[morningfog]

74. Why?

[cecilfirefox]

77. I suppose on a basic level it makes my common sense go o_O,

I just can't, in good conscience, in good humanity, support the choice to abort a fetus because of it's gender, it's race, it's perceived sexuality, etc. I just can't look at that and say, "Okay, that's a morally alright and okay thing to do." I think you could still be pro-choice and hold this position, actually.

I just can't look at it in any other way and not think that's its wrong.

/shrug

[morningfog]

80. And you think your personal hang up with a how a woman makes a decision is a "legitimate

concern to society?"

It is another limitation on a woman's choice. Would you require a woman fill out a questionnaire to ensure her reason meets your/society's approval?

What about abortion for a severely physically or mentally disabled fetus? How is that different? How is a fetus which is the product of rape or incest different? How is just aborting because failed birth control different? How is aborting because a woman does not want to be pregnant at this time?

Pro-choice is pro-choice.

[jeff47]

81. Because he needs an excuse to butt in to women's reproductive tracts. (nt)

[Chorophyll]

42. Well, I don't know anyone who's ever had a "gender motivated" abortion,

but if you have any other make-believe right wing memes you wanna discuss, give me a call.

[Mimosa]

43. This doesn't happen in the USA, Canada, UK...

This is not a pressing issue here, so hardly worth discussing. I've noticed anti-abortion people have been trying to make out it occurs here frequently.

Sex selection abortions mainly occur in India and China.

Another woman's pregnancy is simply none of my business.

[Ohio Joe]

44. Medical issues should be between patient and doctor...

No one else has any fucking right to know anything.

[DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav]

46. It doesn't matter how many gender based abortions happen in the US a year, it can be

10 or 4000, it's not my business. Woman s body, woman s choice.

[dkf]

52. Doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion, she gets what she wants.

As long as it doesn't break the law, the woman has the only say. That's just a fact.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. A non issue that is nobody's business.

[idwiyo]

54. Her body, her choice. End of discussion.

[ismnotwasm]

76. Thank you

'Nuff said

[Fresh_Start]

56. is the women forced to abort the female fetus

in order to satisfy her husband and in-laws?
I get the feeling that there is a lot of pressure to not have girls...in which case, its disgusting.

Are they doing it to avoid inherited illnesses so they can have a family? In which case, I'm happy its available to them.

Otherwise, its none of my business

[XRubicon]

59. Thoughts on Unicorns?

Of course there is the micro issue that they are horses with one horn, however there is the macro issue that they do not exist.

Thoughts?

[2ndAmForComputers]

60. jody? Is that you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.travelblog.org/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x6902

[noamnety]

67. Complete nonissue.

Not anyone's business why a woman wants or doesn't want to use her body as a host for another being for 9 months, just like it's nobody's business to force someone to donate a kidney to another person. Doesn't matter if the reason for not donating a kidney is considered a good reason or not. Maybe the operating room is green and the potential match doesn't like green. Whatever. People have a basic right not to be forced to use their body to sustain someone else's life.

This holds true even for people who don't wish to be inconvenienced for a half hour donating blood to save someone's life, and I'd be willing to bet most prolifers don't bother to do that as often as they are eligible - precisely because it's makes them late to work one day every few months, and they can't have that.

As for the "macro issue of artificially distorting gender ratios in society which can potentially cause a whole host of problems," you have your cause and effect screwed up. In societies where people are more likely to abort girls, it's because females are treated as birthing machines, second class citizens, etc. Work to fix that, instead of suggesting that women have a social obligation to be used as birthing machines for the express purpose of creating more birthing machines for the greater good. Fuck that.

It's not like we have a population shortage, so what exactly is the fear? That men won't get their entitled access to vaginas? Use your freaking hands. I have no obligation to spend 9 months of my life puking and accruing medical bills to create more vaginas for your pleasure.

[fujiyama]

69. I personally find it morally reprehensible and wrong

but ultimately, it is the woman's choice whether or not to go through with a pregnancy - for whatever reason. Even if I wanted such an act stopped, I don't see how the government could stop such a thing from happening. It's not my place to judge a woman for deciding on whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

I don't think sex-selective abortions are particularly common in the US, other than (possibly) among a few immigrant groups. We don't face gender ratio imbalances like China and India. I'd be curious to see if statistics bear it out - and whether immigrants are bringing age-old prejudices and gender preferences for their offspring into the the US.

The real issue shouldn't be about abortion or denying prenatal access including ultrasounds for pregnant woman. Then you start going down the road of the loonies in the GOP - I believe it was Santorum or Gingrich claiming that prenatal care leads to abortion or genocide or something equally insane. The real issue is the culture of misogyny and discrimination faced by women where sex-selective abortions take place. Until the value of a female is equal to that of a male, nothing will change.

[cecilfirefox]

70. It's wrong. nt

[Llewlladdwr]

72. If one is indeed pro-choice...

then the reason a woman chooses to have an abortion is entirely irrelevant.

[cecilfirefox]

78. What if they think, or could prove, that the child would be gay? nt

[Llewlladdwr]

79. Again...

If one is pro-choice, then a woman's reason for desiring an abortion is irrelevant.

[morningfog]

73. Is it looking glass night on DU? WTF?

I don't care who has abortions. Their reason is none of my business.

[krispos42]

82. The motivation is entirely up to the woman.

It is nobody's business but her own.


I refuse to have any law that makes a woman have to justify to anybody why she wants an abortion.

Or any law that makes a woman certify that her reason is not "X", where "X" is something like "the gender of the fetus". Or "the sexual orientation of the fetus". Or anything else.

Society will have to adapt.