A White Plains home listed on the interactive gun map was burglarized Sunday morning...

[Earth_First]

Last edited Mon Jan 14, 2013, 12:43 PM - Edit history (1)

It's possible that this crime was coincidence or a result of publishing the map; one thing is for sure, posting this information online was irresponsible on part of The Journal News.

It was only a matter of time before a home listed on this page was targeted; coincidentally or not, if the goal is to keep illegal firearms off the streets; publishing the addresses of firearms owners will not help...

[JaneyVee]

1. Most likely coincidence. Westchester is outside 5 borough's, many own guns upstate.

[brush]

23. The Journal News is published in Westchester County, not in the 5 borough's of NYC nt

[JaneyVee]

33. As someone that lives in NY, robbing a house upstate is where alot of legal gun owners live.

My guess is coincidence. But its just a guess based on statistics, I have no knowledge or proof of motive.

[Chorophyll]

78. Westchester is not "upstate," however.

Twenty minute ride from White Plains to the Bronx.

[RedstDem]

2. were the firearms stolen?

that would determine whether its just a coinkydink or not..

[Earth_First]

6. The report states that the safe where the firearm was stored was tampered with...

the burglery was unsuccessful in entering the safe or removing the weapon from the home.

[bettyellen]

17. so it wasn't to deliberately steal guns because they be prepared to deal with a safe. Coincidence.

[pipoman]

20. Have you seen videos of idiots trying to steal ATMs?

Burglars aren't usually the brightest bulbs..

[riqster]

80. As my cop friends say, we can only evaluate the ones we catch

The dumb ones get caught, the smart ones don't.

[Lizzie Poppet]

30. That doesn't necessarily follow.

All too many gun owners don't keep their weapons in safes, and that's pretty common knowledge. It is by no means unreasonable to think it's possible the burglars may have used that idiotic list to target a gun-owning home. Impossible to say for sure unless the burglars admit it.

[bettyellen]

41. the gungeoneers have it covered with five different theories - any two of which use opposing logic.

So, I'm calling bullshit.

[Lizzie Poppet]

57. So what?

Even if that had anything to do with the argument I made (and it doesn't), you didn't actually point up any of that opposing logic.

Never mind...

[bettyellen]

67. so, people see through it for the BS that it is.

[Lizzie Poppet]

69. Fine...

But that still has no relationship whatsoever to the argument presented in my post. If you want to call those "gungeoneers' on what you consider to be their bullshit, why not do it in response to their posts. The points I actually made stand.

[JaneyVee]

35. Plus, if you were to burglarize a home I'd imagine a safe is where you would check for valuables.

[HockeyMom]

3. But I thought if the bad guys KNEW there was a gun

in the home, they wouldn't attack it? Why do people put up those Gun Owner Lawn signs then?

[Marrah_G]

9. People who would put up a sign saying there are guns in the home are stupid

[Paladin]

47. Like Those "This Truck Protected By Smith & Wesson" Bumper Stickers.

Funny, I haven't seen any of those stickers in a long, long time.....

[denverbill]

10. +1

[LiberalFighter]

54. Not all of the criminals check out the details or know how to read.

Readership of newspapers has gone down. Not everyone has access to the internet or knows how to use it properly. Not everyone knows the info was available.

[NutmegYankee]

59. They put up signs because they are stupid.

The vast majority of gun owners don't advertise.

[Iggo]

4. Did they steal the guns?

[siligut]

15. Looks like there was an attempt to take the guns

The report states that the safe where the firearm was stored was tampered with...

the burglery was unsuccessful in entering the safe or removing the weapon from the home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022189305#post6

[leftynyc]

55. No - there was an attempt

to get into the safe which could have held anything - like jewelry and cash. That they were after the guns is an assumption.

[siligut]

63. It was a gun safe

Rifles need a special safe, some safes are the size of a refrigerator.

The burglars were unsuccessful at breaking into the gun safe and one man was taken into custody. Police said it is unclear whether the suspects knew what was in the safe when they tried to open it. They are currently trying to determine whether the Journal News' map had anything to do with the crime.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23729453&nid=157&s_cid=popular-3

I don't have a horse in this race. The map may have nothing to do with the break-in and according to the article it is unclear if the thieves knew it was a gun safe.

[leftynyc]

70. I'm indifferent - I think the

paper likely invaded the privacy of those listed but I don't think it rises to actionable behavior. Do gun safes look much different than a regular one?

[siligut]

73. In my experience gun safes do look different

The size is a big factor and gun safes often just use a key.

[Atman]

5. Wait, why would publishing the name of a gun owner PROMOTE a burglary?

Makes no sense. I can see if a neighbor NOT listed was burgled. Your post isn't clear on that. But the fact remains, homes get burglarized all the time. It stands to reason a home, some home, any home, was going to be burglarized in White Plains anyway. It is convenient to link it to "the list," but hardly conclusive of anything.

[Indydem]

13. To steal the firearms?

Why is this really that hard to understand?

[Earth_First]

14. A quicker, higher resale crime...

If a criminal is already comitted to a crime of burglary; why not maximize it's value to the criminal and steal a firearm?

I'm not a criminal, nor do I know much about illegal resale of fi

[HappyMe]

22. To steal the guns.

They can resell them on the street or use them to rob somebody. It's not rocket science.

[Atman]

32. No, it sure as hell isn't "rocket science."

But these NRA-types keep telling us how they're all safe and keep their guns locked up. You're assuming a burglar just knows where to walk in and find the weapons, and assumes they're just laying unprotected on the coffee table? No trigger locks? No gun cabinets? Not hidden in the closet in a lockbox, just laying out waiting to be stolen.

Hmmm...doesn't sound likely to me.

[Indydem]

68. What a load of tripe.

Even secured properly with any number of locks, or even in a gun safe, they can still be stolen.

There is no feasible way to lock up a gun in which a determined burglar cannot get to it.

[bongbong]

90. Good!

> There is no feasible way to lock up a gun in which a determined burglar cannot get to it.

I never thought I'd see a dyed-in-the-wool gungeneer giving arguments against gun ownership. Maybe you've come to your senses.

[treestar]

98. Well it would be rocket science to come up with an explanation

For why they aren't afraid the h/o will kill them with the gun.

We've seen the Martin case and the Texas neighbor case. the people allegedly have the gun to protect them from this burglar. So why go where you are likely to be shot? And go there specifically BECAUSE you are more likely to be shot?

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. It wouldn't, except in the fevered imagination of gun nut imbeciles

[Puzzledtraveller]

7. Atleast this owner was responsible enough to have them locked in a safe

now if all or most owners were as responsible......well....

[frylock]

83. ^this^

[Downwinder]

8. Any houses not on the list burglarized on Sunday?

[Ikonoklast]

29. This is the only correct response.

How many other homes have been burglarized since that article was printed, that were not on the list?

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. ROFL

End of conversation!

[KingFlorez]

11. That flushes another argument down the toilet

Supposedly, just the mere thought of guns is supposed to insulate anyone from crime, yet a house that was identified with a gun permit was broken into. NRA logic fail.

[krispos42]

37. Except that once you strip away anonymity...

...the house becomes an examined, observed target. The criminals can watch for patterns of behavior and strike when you're not there. Specifically because you own guns and a newspaper was dumb enough to print your name and address.

Replace "guns" with "diamonds" in the newspaper article, you'd get the same thing.



On the other hand, at least, they didn't have the guts to break into an occupied home and risk a confrontation with an armed homeowner.

[Atman]

43. That's a big stretch

Again, the burglar would have to assume, or better yet KNOW, where the guns are hidden, and if/how they are locked up, then have a plan to unlock them or remove the 1,000 safe. Just a burglar would have to KNOW you have diamonds and also KNOW that they are not in a safe. Your supposition doesn't wash.

[KingFlorez]

51. That isn't the point....

My point is that there notion that guns are repellant to crime is a flimsy argument and isn't well supported. Criminals don't need a newspaper to decide which houses to break into, in fact, we don't even know if this was related to the article.

[Robb]

12. "Coincidentally or not"?? What horseshit.

If a coincidence, which it is, it's wholly unremarkable and does not promote your thesis.

[Earth_First]

18. So you supported the wholesale promoting the names and addresses of these owners?

Wholly irresponsible action in an attempt to "gotcha" by The Journal.

[Robb]

19. Regardless of what I support, your OP remains horseshit.

It's like saying "It doesn't matter whether or not that was a helicopter, I'm certain it's evidence of extraterrestrial life."

[Tempest]

40. Strawman. They never made such a claim.

Time to calm down and let the rational part of your brain to take over again.

[99Forever]

16. Leaves me speechless, so...

[WhoIsNumberNone]

21. Well, for once I agree with the gun nuts on something

Publishing that map was a stupid idea.

Twice in my old neighborhood houses were broken into. Both times the object was to steal the gun known to reside there. This is how a lot of guns find their way into the hands of criminals- stolen from legal owners. (I know the gun crowd will refuse to make the connection between more guns and more gun crime here) Telling everyone in the world where to steal guns- What could go wrong?

[HappyMe]

25. Exactly.

[Atman]

44. Then the gun OWNER should be held liable.

Hell, even BJ's Wholesale sells big, heavy, virtually immovable safes for locking up your weapons. If you're claiming to be a "responsible" gun owner, it is your responsibility NOT to leave your gun laying about in such a way as it can be easily burgled. Easy law, with no "restrictions" on guns. You need insurance to drive a car...you can drive without insurance, but if something happens, you are wholly responsible, and you've committed a crime. Case closed.

[christx30]

77. You can drive without

insurance on your own property. As long as the car doesn't go on public roads, you don't need inspection, registration, or insurance.
If your car is stolen from your property, and you report it, you are not responsible for what a theif does.
"Did you look the car?"
"Yes"
"And where are the keys?"
"On my night stand."

[gollygee]

24. This is a real non-story

"A bunch of houses are broken into every day, and one was broken into that happened to be on an interactive map, therefore I'm going to pretend like this is strange or unusual so I have a new excuse to complain about the interactive map, even though it's irrelevant."

Were the guns stolen? Hopefully they're stored in a gun safe or something.

Where I live, the majority of people have guns. There does not need to be an interactive map. If you rob someone, there's at least a 50% chance of there being a gun. I guess this leaves me not really caring about this interactive map. Maybe people break into houses and look for whatever looks like it'll be easy to resell, including guns.

[Earth_First]

26. I guess we'll just have to disagree...

I believe it is irresponsible and provides the possible tools to criminals and increase the movement of illegal firearms.

[gollygee]

28. Something else that would also decrease the movement of illegal firearms

would be limiting how many guns are out there at all. But I'm guessing you aren't worried about illegal firearms that much. You just don't like the idea of your address being on a list.

[Earth_First]

31. Really?

I don't own a gun, nor have the desire to own firearm. Ever.

How am I all of a sudden a gun rights supporter?!

Yikes...

[Atman]

48. WAIT WAIT WAIT...you belive it is IRRESPONSIBLE TO PROVIDE TOOLS TO CRIMINALS???

So DON'T print names, just provide guns???

You make my head spin.

[Earth_First]

49. Who said anything about providing guns to anybody here?

You mention head spinning...touche!

[Atman]

53. You said it was irresponsible to provide tools to criminals.

The inference is that providing a list of NAMES is a "tool" for a criminal. But in the same thread, we're talking about a criminal breaking into a home (I assume he had the tools to do so) to steal a "tool" to commit another crime. Who provided the "tools," either the guns or the jimmying tools? So, it would appear "lists of names don't cause burglaries, people who read lists of names cause burglaries." Right?

[Johonny]

27. Some days you just miss having the unrec button

How to spot a bad argument: It starts with Whether or not it was coincidence

Heads I win, tails you lose arguments are boring, pointless and a waste of the DUers time. This thread should be locked.

[Tempest]

42. +1. The poster is having a problem with cause/effect. No evidence of it. n/t

[msanthrope]

38. Have a link to support this? nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

100. Here's a link:

http://newyork.newsday.com/news/nation/journal-news-gun-permit-map-used-by-burglars-to-target-white-plains-home-1.4441678

[rug]

39. So much for deterrence.

[Earth_First]

45. In closing, I was not aware that this is a RW, NRA meme...

Thanks for the 'outing' folks...

Rather than expressing why this is failed logic, you decided to brand me with being a supporter of guns which is the furthest from the possible truth.

Continue the witch hunt on gun rights supporters, you're doing a great job!

Carry on.

Thanks.

[SpartanDem]

52. For too many if you don't hate gun owners/ownership

you're a NRA loving/ rightwinger

[Lizzie Poppet]

58. hit.nail.head

The ideological purity brigade's been feeling their oats lately.

[bongbong]

92. LOL

Wading thru endless posts of the same 20-30 NRA Talking Points, ALL of which were first debunked sometime around 1815, makes Liberals grouchy.

It's your own fault, Delicate Flowers. Try posting something other than long, long debunked illogical appeals to emotion.

[LanternWaste]

99. Your premise is predicated on the logical fallacy, post hoc ergo prompter hoc

"Rather than expressing why this is failed logic..."

Your premise is predicated on the logical fallacy, post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

(also, when people disagree with you, try to avoid calling it a 'witch-hunt', it comes across as petulant and melodramatic-- much as is heard on grade school playgrounds)

[Comrade_McKenzie]

46. LOL. Guess the gun didn't stop the perp. nt

[Paladin]

50. Get Back To Us When You Have Something Beyond "It's Possible."

[Orrex]

56. I wonder...

How many White Plains homes were burglarized despite not being on the interactive gun map.

[ReRe]

60. Just wondering....

...maybe the gun owners are leaving their doors/windows unlocked, and going away from home for long periods of time. Maybe the gun owners want robberies to occur to prove a point?
Do you have a link?

[Hugabear]

61. Sorry, but people should have the right to know who in their neighborhood is armed

Gun ownership should be public record. Don't want your name to be publicized? Then don't own guns.

There is absolutely NO constitutional protections guaranteeing your right to own guns secretly. There IS a first-amendment right to publish anything that is public record.

My right to know if my neighbors are armed supersedes their right to remain anonymous.

If someone has a legitimate fear of having their name published (law enforcement, stalking victims, etc) - then they can get a court order to have their names withheld. But if you have a gun just because you want a gun, then you should be part of the public record.

[NutmegYankee]

71. You do not have a right to know what your neighbor owns.

Sorry. You just don't.

And just because the government collects a record shouldn't mean it is public. Government collects who receives SNAP and Medicare, but those records are rightfully kept private. If you go down the all records of government should be public, then kiss Single Payer Healthcare goodbye.

[Hugabear]

95. If they own a gun, then yes I should be able to know

There is no other purpose for a gun other than to kill. As such, we should have a right to know if people have death dealers in their houses.

[NutmegYankee]

96. Thankfully a vast majority disagree with you.

[jberryhill]

62. So? How many houses were burglarized that weekend?

[VOX]

65. 4 houses recently; 3 of which do NOT appear on the Journal News Map...

See link in post below.

[VOX]

64. White Plains police: Burglary's connection to Journal News gun-permit map 'pure speculation'

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130114/NEWS02/301140080/White-Plains-police-Burglary-s-connection-Journal-News-gun-permit-map-pure-speculation-?nclick_check=1

WHITE PLAINS — As police investigate a burglary over the weekend on Davis Avenue, Public Safety Commissioner David Chong said it’s premature to suggest that the house was targeted because a resident there is listed on a map of pistol permit holders published last month by The Journal News.
<snip>

“We see no pattern of people breaking into homes based on the map, but we’re certainly paying attention and monitoring that.”

The burglary was one of four recent burglaries in the city. The other three residences burglarized do not appear on The Journal News pistol permit holders map.

In the Davis Avenue break-in, a man reported at 9 p.m. Saturday that he returned to his home to find a rear second-floor window had been entered by someone who used a ladder. Jewelry was taken and pry marks were found on what the homeowner described as his gun locker. No weapons were stolen.
<snip>

[Lizzie Poppet]

72. It will take an admission by the burglars...

...to have any confidence in confirming or denying that the interactive map had anything to do with this case. It still wouldn't be 100% (since they might lie about it...), but as it stands now it is indeed speculation. If a pattern of targeting those houses begins to emerge over time, it would obviously enhance confidence in calling the map an influence...but it's far too soon for that.

[hunter]

66. Owning a gun increases the chances you or someone you know will be shot.

In neighborhoods where people don't have jewelry, gold, silver, or money stashed around the house (because they haven't got any) guns are often one of the few things people have worth stealing. Nobody is breaking into houses to steal CRT television sets, VCRs, and VHS tapes.

I think there should be a national registry of fools who shouldn't have guns. On that list would be people who have brandished or fired their weapons for stupid reasons ("Get off my lawn!" or, "Woohoo, Happy New Year, bang, bang!&quot ; people who rant about their precious on YouTube; people who have allowed their guns to be stolen in any other manner than, say, a thief cutting into a gun safe with a plasma torch; anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime; etc., etc., etc. None of these people would be allowed to own or handle guns for a period of time related to the severity of their idiocy or criminality, and the list of these gun fools would be public.

I'm cynical about the interactive gun map. I think this was done to generate an ugly fog of talking points.

[upaloopa]

74. You can also find that house on Zillow and Google Earth

What was taken and why didn't the owner blow the burgled to kingdom come?

[NutmegYankee]

75. Burglary usually occurs when no one is home. nt

[Kalidurga]

87. So what are you saying here?

A gun can't protect your property if you aren't home? Ridiculous we all know guns are the solution to every problem.

[NutmegYankee]

88. You may "know" an NRA talking point.

I was just pointing out that burglaries are normally conducted when no-one is home. Home invasions on the other hand are usually quite violent affairs.

[Lizzie Poppet]

76. Neither of those would tell you much about the contents, though.

Not sure what was taken, but apparently the firearms weren't: the owner had proper security (a gun safe) that was tampered with but not opened. As for not shooting the burglars, I'd assume that no one was home. Few burglars target homes when the occupants are home. Burglars and home invaders aren't commonly the same people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. One robbery meh

Once you develop a pattern...

Serious.

[Chorophyll]

81. If your premise is correct, how in the name of everything logical does having a gun

keep you safe from home invasions?

By the way, I live in White Plains and burglaries happen around here. They happened before the map was published, and they will happen after everyone's forgotten the map. This is a city of 40,000 people and a bedroom-community for NYC. Not exactly the boondocks.

[NutmegYankee]

82. A home invasion is different.

A burglar breaks in while you are away from the house, like at work. A home invasion is storming into an occupied home. Only one is a danger to you (home owner) physically.

[Chorophyll]

86. I understand that, thanks.

So pretty much if your home is invaded you're gonna be able to get to your responsibly locked-up guns right away and take out the bad guys, huh?

But that's a different topic altogether. The main point is that if the OP's premise is correct and having guns in your home makes you an attractive target, maybe you shouldn't have guns in your home.

[NutmegYankee]

89. A quick access combo handgun safe opens in two seconds.

And perhaps it is no one's business to publish the names and addresses of gun owners. It's not public info in most states for this logical reason. You aren't an attractive target if no one knows what you own.

[frylock]

84. of four houses recently burglarized in white plains, only one was included on the list..

i'm going with coincidence on this one.

[JoePhilly]

85. But doesn't this also mean that burglers also knew which homes DID NOT have guns???

Buglers tend to avoid homes with alarms or guns.

The idea is, get in, grab some stuff, get out. And most of all, avoid those who might be inside.

[Kaleva]

91. So having a gun didn't prevent the burglary.

[NutmegYankee]

93. Why would it? No one is home.

[Squinch]

94. This is moronic. Having grown up near White Plains, I can say that 5 homes are robbed there on any

given week. It happened before the list was published and it happened after the list was published.

Hey! A house was robbed near a Hostess factory. It must be because Hostess is shutting down!

Hey! There was a car accident in that town near where the whales got caught in the ice! It must have been that the whales caused the car accident.

I can't believe this is a conversation.

[treestar]

97. It would be silly for gun supporters to generalize from that

It would be proof that having a gun and knowing there is a gun does not protect them from crime.

[Hoyt]

101. Did house next door - with "No gun zone" sign - - get robbed?