I deeply regret ever having sought mental health treatment.

[Denninmi]

I bet I'm not alone in feeling this way.

I thought I was doing " the right thing" last summer when I went to a psychiatrist to try to get some help for my extreme anxiety, panic attacks, and depression. August 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm, on my lunch break, sitting in my car parked on the edge of the lot of the office building where I work, under the overhanging branches of a linden so I could be in the shade. I made the phone call that has forever fucked up my life beyond any hope of repair. I won't ever forget that moment.

I thought I would be able to find some relief from the problems that were causing me so much distress. Instead, I have learned a lot from this, even though it has been a lesson in what not to do.

The psychiatric treatment system - what a joke. And I had "the best" available in my state, private pay/insurance. I went to a doctor who proved to be an incompetent nightmare. I got myself stuck in a day hospital program which did help somewhat - it helped undo some of the damage done to my fragile psyche by a cold, cruel physician who treated me like a criminal and traumatized me as much, if not more, than my buddy "death threat guy" whose threats to me in the course of just trying to do my job were what really pushed me over the edge.

I was trying to pull myself out of the quicksand and making some progress, feeling better about things. I "came out" to DU on the morning of 12/14 and was heartened by the outpouring of understanding and support. I thought, hey, things are going to be ok.

Little did I know that a heinous crime 600 miles away in CT would make all hell break loose for anyone in my position. Since then, it's been open season in the mentally ill.

Now, I have this permanent black mark on my name, bipolar/PTSD and the state is preparing to use this information against me and everyone like me. NY passed a law which turns mental health professionals into informants and patients into registered members of a class that includes felons, rapists, pedophiles. No one really knows where this information will lead.

Michigan has a rabid teabagger legislature that will no doubt write and enact similar legislation within months. I bet by April or May we have the same law here. Because, you know, guns are more important than "mental defectives" such as myself. Throw "those people" under the bus, who cares, "we aren't like them, those scary outsiders. They are other." That's the attitude.

Where does all of this leave me? Hopeless, broken, frightened out of my mind. Stigmatized, public enemy number one in the eyes of more than a few, even here on so-called "enlightened" DU. Dehumanized. No future.

If I knew then what I know now, I never would have made that phone call. Seeking psychiatric care has ruined me. If you don't think laws like NY will make thousands of people refuse to seek treatment for fear of being stuck with a permanent scarlet letter ....

Thanks for all of that. I guess I can't speak for anyone but myself. I should have just tried to "tough it out" no matter where that took me. Because anything is better than this living hell.

[LittleBlue]

1. Could you explain precisely what ruined you?

I don't understand why you're now ruined.

[xoom]

28. Ruined by having a scarlet letter for having a mental illness?

Thats the way I understood it.

[hfojvt]

95. if the scarlet letter

only keeps you from buying guns

then it seems pretty hyperbolic to say that your life is "ruined".

If, on the other hand, he/she was almost 51 years old, had a master's degree and was working a low paying janitor job where his supervisors didn't appreciate all his hard work, and he was living alone with some destructive dogs and no hope of ever getting laid.

Maybe THEN, his life would be ruined.

But then he'd be me.

[darkangel218]

103. destructive dogs?

But they're so cute chewing up the couch :p

Dogs could never be destructive.

[Denninmi]

118. Let me count the ways.

My family hates me. They think I'm "mysterious" because I haven't revealed any of this to them, and they wonder where I've been. They say I've changed, I'm moody and withdrawn. Gee, you think?

This is been a financial fiasco of epic proportions. I just blew through $34,000 paying bills. I love the Blue Cross definition of "covered" -- they cover all of the things they don't exclude by saying "not covered". Even after you have doctors and hospitals "pre-verify" coverage.

If I lose my job, who in the Hell would ever hire me again? I'd probably be lucky if they'd let me scrub toilets at McDonalds. Not exactly what I had planned on doing at this age with 2 college degrees, one with a perfect 4.0 GPA, a professional certification and an advanced professional certification.

[tblue]

2. Tell me more.

Sorry if I'm a little dense at this late hour. Is it the stigma that concerns you? Or did you want to obtain a gun and now don't think you can? Just trying to probe a little.

[Denninmi]

119. Stigma, fear of, yes. Guns?

Everyone is SO hung up on this question. Yes, I have been a total ass on GD about this issue. Very "in your face" about it.

Not because I personally want to buy one, but because of the principle that I should have the same exact rights as anyone else. EVERY right granted under the Constitution. Unless or until those rights are restricted or taken away by a court of law AFTER due process.

To arbitrarily deprive people of fundamental rights due to their class status with absolutely no regard for due process and equal protection rights is worthy of a fascist regime. Yet that's what they want to do.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

3. As a family member of someone who suffered from bipolar disorder most of her life

Until she died, I can definitely say that no matter what you are thinking/feeling right now, seeking mental help is very important. Try to gain understanding from your friends, family, and support groups so you can fight the tough and negative parts of the system.

I saw my sister when she was on proper medication and when she would decompose after not being on medication. It is like night and day. Her quality of life suffered immensely when she was not receiving proper treatments.

[cali]

18. you can't extrapolate about bi-polar from your sister

Some people with it never need medication. Others don't need medication long term. Some need medication their entire lives. There are degrees of severity. I know more than a few people who have been misdiagnosed.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

107. I'm well aware there are varying degrees

My point wasn't the OP should medicate--merely that seeking mental help is a good thing even if it only involves talk therapy.

[DeschutesRiver]

109. This is true.

One family member, now in her 70s, diagnosed bi-polar but has never needed medication. Only one difficult spot when in her 20s, when it was diagnosed (there was a parent who had it as well, needing daily medication and hospitalization on occasion) and nothing since. The doc said it may take meds to adjust or it may just be that this family member now knows her limitations, unlike the rest of us who don't, and that it was possible that it may remain mild enough that it won't ever interfere with her life. He was ready for whichever way it would go as he treated her. The doc had more of a reasoned approach, and the latter is how it unfolded. The other was a sibling of that family member, who did need daily medication in order to function, and when they eventually failed to take it (the drugs back then had horrific side effects), committed suicide as a result.

So definitely, there is a whole range of severity here, and no extrapolation is possible on this issue. It takes someone in the field to know, and even then, there are enough times when those people are flat out wrong. Just as any doctor of physical issues can make a misdiagnosis.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

152. How many people do you know personally who have been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder?

[BainsBane]

4. The truth is most psychiatrists are terrible

It's difficult to find a good one but it is possible. Talk to fellow patients in your area to see who they like.

Try not to worry about state action. You have to seek treatment. You don't have a choice, no more than someone with AiDs has a choice. Medical care is essential for a reasonable quality of life.

[physioex]

8. I tend to agree.....

But I see the role of the Psychiatrist more for evaluation, diagnosis, and referral for treatment. In another words, we need a more continuum of care like social workers, religious leaders, and group threapy, getting the family involved (if tenable) etc.....

[BainsBane]

17. They prescribe drugs

And other medical treatments. I agree about the continuum of care. But a bad psychiatrist can be a real problem, whether through misdiagnosis or overdosing meds (causing serotonin syndrome, for example). They have to be able to listen to patients well enough to understand if the drugs are working and not dismiss patients concerns about side effects or dosage. And of course they need to keep current on drugs and other treatments.

[sendero]

125. I agree..

... most psychiatrists are mad "scientists" in a lab trying this pill and then that pill and then this AND that pill and before you know it the meds have you more fucked up than you were to start with. This has happened to plenty of folks.

Simple advice to anyone being prescribed psychiatric meds, only YOU can determine if they are helping and even that can be difficult.

And the OP is not the only one who regrets even seeking psychiatric help, even before the new notification laws.

[RKP5637]

77. I went to see a psychiatrist years ago. I got arm chair counseling and worked through

my problems. Later I learned from another friend he had similar difficulties and they threw him into a hospital with tons of shock therapy. As you said, many psychiatrists are terrible. Some only care about the money coming in ... often just say here, take this ... or stick one into a hospital where they make even more $$$$$.

[Awknid]

176. Yes

They are either good or bad. I had a good one who let me realize there was a previous misdiagnosis and I've been fine for 15 years. I wish I had his contact info to thank him! He saved my life!

[Odin2005]

91. I must have one of the few good ones.

She's a sweet old Romanian lady.

[Denninmi]

120. I really like my new one, too. She's Russian/Jewish.

I think because of the way the psychiatric system in the former communist countries was perverted to serve as a method of getting rid of dissidents, the doctors who came out of there probably have a pretty profound understanding of right and wrong.

I failed myself on the first one by NOT checking her out first. Ten minutes of online research would have revealed all of the terrible patient reviews and comments to the effect of "stay away" on physician review sites. All I did was look her up on the hospital referral site and pick her because of location.

Believe me, I checked on the current one, and her patient reviews/ratings are stellar. She's super nice and seems extremely compassionate and understanding.

[TorchTheWitch]

174. Mine is an absolute gem

I was beginning to think that I, too, just got really lucky.

For the record, I don't think most are horrible. I think that the doctor/patient relationship is so vastly different than with any other kind of doctor that it's just probably really difficult to find the right psychiatrist for the individual especially when the individuals needing a shrink usually don't have a clue what it is they DO need in a shrink. It's also such a unique relationship in that the heavy lifting has to be done by the patient. It took me YEARS to finally figure out that my shrink couldn't help me if I was keeping info from him especially those things that bothered me the most or struggling to hide overwhelming emotions (tears, rage, etc.). Therapy doesn't work if the patient is unwilling or unable to completely open up about themselves and their feelings. And that's no easy thing since us mentally ill folk have worked harder at hiding our problems from everyone than working on fixing them, so it's a damn hard habit to break even with our own psychiatrists.

[Denninmi]

175. I don't think most are horrible, either. Just a few bad actors, as in any profession.

That happens, trust me. In my field, we just took on a client whose tax returns for the past couple of year were done by a CPA who effed them up so badly by making kindergarten level mistakes that she now owes close to 75K in taxes, fines, and penalties, for simple things like not knowing real estate rental income goes on a Schedule E, instead of the Schedule C he put it on. So, she is in the process of filing a complaint against him and seeking restitution. It happens, but it's not the norm.

I'm really lucky with my therapist, I feel like I can tell her literally anything without being judged, just get good analysis in return. The new Dr., well, in the few 45 minute sessions we have had, there just hasn't been opportunity to go into much detail, but I try to tell her the highlights and then let her ask the questions.

[physioex]

5. I am glad you sought treatment....

Correct me if I am wrong, but why would health care professionals start reporting you to government authorities? It is my understanding that unless you are a threat to yourself or other individuals, it would not be necessary.

[ellennelle]

22. exactly

[hack89]

34. Mental health is very subjective - deciding what constitutes a threat is not simple

Without strict guidelines it will be left up to individual doctors. Some will be very conservative and others not, leading to widely inconsistent results. And what if that doctor plays it save to avoid future lawsuits - you will see "threat" defined further down.

There are a lot of details about how this will work that I would like to see.

[AngryAmish]

49. As a trial lawyer this creates a nice opportunity

To prove professional negligence one has to prove standard of care, breach of the standard of care, proximate cause and damages. Now imagine if one is speaking with a victim of violence and you find out that the perp had sought counseling/psychological help. The state of NY and the Federal government has set the standard of care by saying these mental health professionals have a duty to report mentally ill people. If the perp was not reported you have breach of the standard of care. Proximate cause is proven by the shooting. Damages speak for themselves.

[Denninmi]

121. That's exactly what I think is going to happen.

The pressure to report and to CYA is going to be so strong that anyone who has ever presented to a doctor and said I'm so depressed I don't know if I can find the strength to go on is going to end up on the list. And that is going to be an amazingly large number of people.

[rrneck]

67. There might be a "CYA" factor.

Mental health professionals have rent to pay. They may indulge in "defensive psychiatry" just to be sure they won't get that phone call from the authorities about their client that harmed themselves or another and suffer repercussions because they didn't report it.

Psychiatric evaluations are a pretty poor indicator of future behavior.

[JohnnyLib2]

6. Sometimes, you gotta outlive and outsmart the fools.

And I'm betting you can and will.

[BainsBane]

7. Denninmi

I suggest you repost this in the support group. I don't think you want general comments about this. They are unlikely to be helpful.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. Some have already been quite helpful

Mental illness isn't stigmatized the way it was 30 years ago.

[obamanut2012]

31. Yes it is

Maybe by not quite as many people, but it certainly is.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

108. Why are you arguing this? You just admitted

Maybe not by as many people. That would mean it is not as universally stigmatized as it was before.

[Denninmi]

123. Ah, it's ok. I'm a big boy, I can take the worst of it. And I appreciate the people who "get it".

It's all good.

[pennylane100]

177. Yes, I agree.

That does see to happen occasionally here although not too much.
I think you are better off going to people suffering from the same experience, or at least understands them. Also, thank you for reminding me that there is a support group. I had forgotten.

[renate]

10. I am so sorry. I wish there were support and not just labels for you and people in your situation

I am not intimately familiar with the mental health care system but my understanding is that it is, frankly, pathetic for those who cannot afford the out-of-pocket expenses. This is SO WRONG. Mental health is so much about neurochemistry and not at all about character flaws. It is heartbreaking the way that cancer, heart disease, anything involving any organ other than the brain gets funding and concern and those whose brains are not working optimally are treated as second-class citizens or worse.

I completely--completely--believe that you are not violent and that you are a good and caring person. Adam Lanza does not represent you.

I'm sorry that the actions of one gunman have affected your feelings about yourself and your diagnosis. I hope you find a better physician and that our mental-health system changes so that bipolar disorder or depression or anything else is no more of a stigma than diabetes or cardiovascular disease or a broken arm. Because it really is just a question of chemistry gone awry. It's not your fault. I'm sorry your doctor didn't help you.

[retrogal]

11. I am sorry you feel this way.

It is the ones of us that attempt to get help that are the brave ones. We should never worry about a black mark on our life record for accepting the help we need.
I understand what you are saying though. We don't know where our info is going to end up. I also suffer from anxiety, panic attacks and depression. I see my GP for these problems. It is no ones business what goes on between my doctor and me.

I live in a different state than you so laws may be different here. I hope so because I have a family member with bipolar and personality disorder. She is very private about it.

I do not own guns because of the depression that runs in my family and it is too easy for someone to abuse a gun with suicide when they aren't thinking straight. If I ever decided to own a gun I hope there would be no problems.

Good luck and sorry you ended up with a 'bad' doctor.

[retrogal]

12. We need to worry about...

... the ones that need treatment but will not seek it.

[Denninmi]

127. I think so, too.

Laws like the NY one will just be further disincentive to seek treatment. Obviously, I would have thought twice abut it if a law like that were in place here.

I'm NOT the only one that thinks this stinks. I've read/heard several comments about the NY law online or on NPR from mental health professional, including a Columbia University psychiatrist who teaches about law and psychiatry. He had serious misgivings.

I hope the courts can be used to challenge this.

[Luminous Animal]

13. I am so so sorry that you are living through this...

I know two people who have decided to not seek professional help for anxiety do to the aftermath... because of the fear of doing so will, as you say, brand them with a scarlet letter.

We are always looking for a scapegoat... rarely for a solution.

[ZombieHorde]

14. Thanks for the perspective.

Very interesting.

[hopemountain]

15. you may not wish to hear this

but i recommend a 2nd opinion on your diagnosis. ptsd and anxiety can be intensified by the drugs commonly used for treatment of bipolar disorder. i hate to say it but bipolar disorder is too easily diagnosed without proper testing and without proper brain spect/scans. i recommend Dr. Amen's Brain Clinics.

[ellennelle]

21. agreed on the 2nd opinion

but not sure at all when brain spect/scans have been elevated to "properly" diagnosing bipolar! your point that it's too easily diagnosed etc. is accurate, as the criteria has shifted dramatically over the years (when i was training, onset was in the 40s, never in youth, for example).
given that bipolar is such a loose and vague diagnosis now in any case, there is no way a brain spect/scan might assist in nailing things down. for the kinds of symptoms denninmi describes, a treating professional does far better knowing background and reaction patterns than relying on expensive (exorbitant, actually) brain scans seems overkill and misleading.

[siligut]

37. Do you actually know anything about Dr. Amen and the clinics?

Or have you just read one of his popular books? SPECT scans can be useful, but the Amen clinics charge up to 10xs what other providers do. Diet and exercise as Dr. Amen recommends cannot hurt, but one doesn't need his "special exclusive" expensive supplements to get good nutrition.

[hopemountain]

100. pardon me?

i do not make recommendations regarding something so serious as getting a second opinion for a mental health condition. i KNOW the amen clinic staff are a group of professionals whom i believe to have a better take on the brain than a frickin' family md or general psychologist or psychiatric INTERN who makes a diagnosis of bipolar disorder after a 15 minute assessment of stereotypical questions only to prescribe lithium and prozac. fucking pseudo-professionals.

furthermore, i would not lightly make such a recommendation to the OP - whom has just posted a sensitive statement based solely on a book - did i recommend a book?

the books - particularly, "healing the hardware of the soul" are helpful but, they are only helpful. they are not a basis for treatment nor diagnosis.

i am not aware of what the cost is - but in 2003 it was $2500 for 3 days of testing, evaluation, diagnosis, and a treatment plan. everything is discussed with the patient including the brain spects. the patient goes home with copies of all of their brain spects and test results and a full treatment plan recommendation with the option to choose whether they wish to continue seeing one of the clinic professionals or go elsewhere.

[In_The_Wind]

16. You're not alone, Denninmi.

No one should feel like a trip to their doctor is going to give them a scarlet letter.

[Quantess]

61. I don't think it actually does, though.

I understand there is worrying and some anxiety going on, but I don't think reality matches up with the fears.

There is no mental health database that gets published, at this point. As long as an individual doesn't threaten to hurt him/herself or others, there is nothing any authorities can do. There is no scarlet letter when receiving psychiatric treatment, if you don't tell people.

[In_The_Wind]

66. Let's hope it stays that way.

The last thing anyone needs is a fear of being honest with their doctors.

[rrneck]

69. Psychiatric treatment depends on trust and candor.

If the client is afraid they will be stigmatized for telling a mental health professional how they feel, treatment will be compromised.

[Denninmi]

122. Yes, at this point.

I think it's coming very, very soon.

[Scuba]

19. Hang in there. This too shall pass.

[ellennelle]

20. take a breath

and a step back.
first, speaking as a mental health professional, i'm genuinely sorry this has happened to you, and apologize for the profession; it's sadly hit or miss anymore. i never encourage patients to seek help from a psychiatrist first; they are glorified druggists at best, openly pushers at worst, and are rarely if ever trained to do actual psychotherapy. best to start with a therapist - a psychologist or social worker - who will treat your habitual emotional reaction symptoms (cognitive behavioral techniques are good for this), and then refer you to a psychiatrist for medication if needed. the therapist becomes your point person, your touchstone, someone who knows your background and cares about your feelings and choices; a psychiatrist tends to see you as part of a drug deal. (just my humble opinion here.)
second though, and this is important for the purpose of your post - if i'm not mistaken, the simple fact that you have ever sought treatment is not enough for you to be listed with the gun purchase system. what i understand is that mental health professionals may report individuals IF their patient has made threats to harm themselves or someone else. this is key; just having a diagnosis is not enough.
moreover, this piece is already in place in virtually all states in some form or other, and has been for decades; we are mandated to report such patients to police authorities, for obvious reasons. (in other words, if we fail to report such information, we are liable.)
i hope knowing this key distinction helps you feel better. but i also hope you continue to seek treatment; the fact that you have had such an extreme reaction to what you perceive as a threat to your confidentiality, safety, and happiness suggests that therapeutic assistance can only help, as long as it's with a caring and competent professional. do not be afraid to shop around to find a good fit; most people spend more time shopping for a car than for a therapist, so do your homework, ask people you trust, network, research, investigate.
you know, treat yourself and your emotional needs with the care and investment you would for a major purchase, at least. you are so worth it!
and bravo to you for seeking the help you need and deserve; this takes remarkable courage! keep with that!

[Sienna86]

25. Second this answer

Ellennelle is presenting the facts as we know them today.

You did the right thing to seek treatment.

[politicaljunkie41910]

57. Agreed. Hope the OP will take this advice.

[backscatter712]

75. Like I said below, the therapist's couch should have the sanctity of confession.

And I mean ABSOLUTE confidentiality.

I don't think a therapist should be able to break confidentiality even if a patient is seriously suicidal. If patients think they're going to get scarlet-lettered or thrown in the psych ward for being honest with mental health providers, they'll clam up.

[Denninmi]

126. Thanks, I am always particularly interested in the opinions of people in the profession.

I know all about the current "duty to warn" standards. What I think is going to happen is that is going to replaced by a much looser standard, which isn't based on imminent threat, just on overall potential. Which will be a very wide net, because it could include almost anyone with any kind of MH diagnosis.

And, it's going to be about MUCH more than guns. It will have far-reaching effects into the lives of people like myself, and I think it's going to have serious implications for employment, housing, public access to both public and private services. For example, yes, I could easily see airlines refusing to sell seats to people on such a list, or hotels refusing to book rooms, or restrictions put on housing such as is done now with pedophiles -- out of a desire to keep the "general public" "safe".

[easttexaslefty]

165. This. ^^^

[Live and Learn]

23. As one who hoped that these tragedies would make people realize that

our mental health care system and research were inadequately funded, I'm appalled that one of the solutions we seem to be headed for instead includes creating a database of those who do seek treatment in order to deny them access to "a right" others insist they have. Why would anyone seek treatment knowing they would be placed on any kind of database?

We need much more research into mental, personality and physical disorders done by researchers that don't work for the pharmaceutical companies (that are out to increase profits). And we need to encourage people to seek treatment without stigmatizing them for doing so.

[pecwae]

26. We have no idea

what will really happen with regards to access to those databases. Will those names end up on No Fly lists, DMV records? We need to be encouraging people to get the help they need, not scare them out of it.

[backscatter712]

81. Treatment costs money.

Scarlet-lettering and coercion drums up business for the prison-industrial complex.

[ejpoeta]

24. I had a bad experience myself at a psychotherapist.

When I first sought help at my sister's request, I went to the doctor that had diagnosed her. He sent me to this psychotherapist. They guy told me if I act happy I'll be happy. So I just wasn't trying hard enough. I went to see him twice and then I blamed myself thinking I just wasn't trying hard enough. I spiraled downward until I gave away all my important things and had a very bad notebook in which I talked about wanting to kill myself because the pain was so horrible. I became despondent and did things that one would construe as harmful to myself. I ended up riding my bike to my brother's which took me 5 hours. I was pretty bad.... I was trying to run from my problems. My sister, the one who asked me seek treatment in the first place seemed to have found my notebook. She talked me into going to the hospital where I stayed for 10 days. They took me seriously after that. The biggest problem is trying to get people to take you seriously. That psychotherapist was very detrimental to me.

[LiberalLoner]

33. I had a similar bad experience. In my case I have a disease that causes chronic pain

And was told that the disease and pain were my own fault for not thinking positively enough, and that I needed to just act like the pain and depression from the pain weren't there and everything would be fine.

Never again. Never opening myself up to that crap again. Life is hard enough without that bullshit.

[tama]

27. You are growing

going through transformative crisis. Where does healthy self-confidence come from? From how others see you and diagnose you? From projections into past and/or future? No need to regret anything, we learn from all experiences.

Where does self-confidence come from? If you are now feeling self-pity, it's self-compassion to cry it out, tears are good if and when they come.

Where does self-confidence come from? No one else can give it to you, find it for you.

World is open. What is your heart's desire?

[Denninmi]

124. What's my heart's desire.

Right now, two things. Not end up one some official "enemies of the State" list, and to have this diagnosis removed from my name.

[tama]

131. Those

sound more like just fears in your mind, thought constructs.

As whole body being, ask your center what you want to feel, experience and learn in this life. Don't answer me because it's not my question, or expect or demand a verbal answer. Rather, just concentrate on the question, then let go of the thought and let the answer come and realize in the form it comes.

[Quantess]

29. Sorry, that sounds stressful.

It may be a good idea to keep your mental health treatment to yourself, and not tell too many other people about it. People are more judgmental and biased than we would like them to be, and I don't know if that's ever going to change...

There are confidentiality laws, IIRC. As long as you don't threaten yourself or anyone else, then there's nothing anybody can legally do to you, against your will. I really hope it stays that way.
Take care.

[obamanut2012]

30. I suspect many people don't go because of a "scarlet letter"

And, even more won't go if everyone is reported to a database. There needs to be certain protocols set up, so people aren't stopped from seeing a professional like you did.

I understand feeling that way.

And, sociopaths are not only not mentally ill, they don't tend to go to any type of therapist or mental health professional.

[Quantess]

73. I have read that...

...what I have read is that sociopaths generally have no use for psychiatric treatment because it does not benefit them, and if they partake in treatment or counseling, they are superficial and glib and don't benefit from treatment.

[backscatter712]

82. Most psychopaths who get therapy actually get worse.

Therapy actually becomes a sort of psychology class for psychopaths, and teaches them how to fake empathy, and fit in better until they can find new opportunities to wreck people.

[anneboleyn]

112. Yes, true of sociopaths as they learn to "mirror" empathy if given therapy

[bigtree]

32. what a mess. sorry you're going through all this

. . . no cure for the dummies criticizing you, though. Put whatever you want on your sweater. Lots of support here for you taking care of your mental health. That's the most important thing here. The dummies will need to wait their turn for treatment for their insecurity and projections. Ignore them and take care of yourself!

I also recommend visiting one of the mental health forums to find a more understanding and supportive crowd than GD can sometimes offer

[get the red out]

35. It's best for me not to obsess on what will happen

In my experience, I've usually been wrong about it anyway, after putting a huge amount of energy into the worry.

No matter what, you didn't make a mistake by seeking help. I tried to hide and deny my depression for 18 years and when I finally admitted I had a problem and sought help my quality of life improved immeasurably. I have also "been there" with the bad doctors both with my self and loved ones with mental health problems. It takes a lot of effort to demand and receive quality care, but our lives are worth it.

I look at it this way, if information regarding folks with mental health issues gets used against them in ways not prescribed by law; they have one HELL of a lawsuit. And there are a lot more lawyers out there than psychiatrists.

Take care of yourself, that's really all that's important and all we can do on a daily basis.

[politicaljunkie41910]

36. I think you're being a little overdramatic, don't you think? If you sought treatment for a "real"

problem and at least for a time, you felt like you were brought back from the brink's edge, why are you wasting your time and more importantly, your mental state, worrying about imaginary problems that haven't happened yet? Look, many people face mental issues at some point in their lives. A large percentage of our population will experience depression at some time in their lives due to the complex lives we live in the 21st century. Most will suffer in silence, but that doesn't mean that lives won't be impacted. Getting help rather than suffering in silence, or worse yet, harming yourself, or others, is a good thing. If you had a lousy doctor who did more harm than good, than I'm sorry, but I hope that no one who needs help would forgo that help because they fear that some time in the future, they may end up on some "LIST". If you need help, get it. Most mental issues cannot be wished away or you grow out of it. There are enough legislatures with family members who have emotional issues, that I have faith that the legislatures will deal with this issue in a sane and sensitive manner. And in the final analysis, do you really think that any law enforcement agency has the resources to run around keeping track of everyone whose ever been treated for a bipolar disorder. Let's keep it real.

Good luck to you.

[ceile]

44. ^this^

I know that the poster is sincere, but it is way over the top. I've been in therapy since I was a teen. I, however, do not think the mentally ill are being targeted.

[laundry_queen]

93. If you think there is not a stigma

Then you are living in a fantasy land. In addition, I find your post condescending and invalidating to the OP.

It's not just about being on some 'no gun' list.

It's about how people - even your immediate family - treat you. It's about how documentation of issues can come back to haunt you in a custody battle. It's how insurance companies can charge you more. etc. etc. etc.

And there are many therapists who do more harm than good. Or even family doctors who 'diagnose' you when they shouldn't. Mine put me on anti-depressants when my real problem was a psychopath husband and the resulting anxiety and confusion from his lies and gaslighting. I wasted years of my life blaming myself before I got off the drugs and realized I was in a horrible situation with my emotionally abusive husband. The SSRI's basically made me accept horrible treatment. In addition, I now have to deal with threats from my now-ex about a possible custody fight based on my 'anxiety' issues and how he will exploit that. On support boards I've heard far, far too many stories of horrible therapists and doctors and misdiagnosis and ruined lives. In a not-insignificant percent of people who seek help, it will make things worse.

[Fire Walk With Me]

102. Really? Link:

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/breaking-new-york-creates-psychiatric-police-state/

[Denninmi]

129. I don't think it's unreasonable to worry about the hypothetical when it becomes the possible.

Look at all of the worry about terrorism, the Patriot Act, abortion rights being curtailed, and so many other issues. People worry about this stuff because other people, like our wonderful legislators, are always trying to screw them.

[MindPilot]

42. Seriously?

The OP is describing personal experience.

[stlsaxman]

39. An "absolute nightmare" of a story... with not one follow-up.

[Denninmi]

130. Sorry, I had to let this sink in a while.

I decided it would be better to wait a while to post replies.

[stlsaxman]

134. please accept my apologies, Denninmi...

hopefully you could see how i'd make such an assumption. And, hopefully, you could see your way to forgiving me for it.

And, most hopefully, you can find your way out of this nightmare.

[Denninmi]

141. You don't need to apologize. Didn't say anything wrong.

I was just explaining why I waited, that's all. It's all good. And I love the "shrug" emoticon, it always makes me laugh for some reason.

[siligut]

40. Mental health in the US is starting to feel like Soviet Psychiatry

Take responsibility for your own mental well-being, use what works and leave the rest behind. Cut out all alcohol, eat whole foods, continue to exercise, meditate, take Tai Chi or another discipline that helps you to stay in the present.

Most of all, know you are not a diagnosis. As you have realized, you had a rough spell. That is over, you have learned a lot, now move forward.

[CanSocDem]

56. Best response yet...(nt)

[Denninmi]

139. Um, I don't drink. Or take drugs of any kind. Never have.

I don't expect you to know that, and I mean no offense by this, but ...

I'm so damned sick and tired of that question, too. I've been asked that about a thousand times - do you have any substance abuse problems. As someone who has always abstained for moral reasons, I find it offensive.

Not every last person with a mental health issue is a raging alcoholic or meth addict.

Diet Mountain Dew and Lo-Carb Monster energy drinks are as hard as I go.

That and the "how's your hygiene?" God, talk about offensive, little wonder I found this entire experience degrading. I take like 3 showers a day, change my clothes at least 3 times a day, mange to color coordinate suit, shirt, tie, and accessories, trim my beard every 2-3 days, go to the salon once a month for a cut, shampoo, and style, and put on a little splash of CK One every morning when I'm getting read for work. I don't think I look or smell like I'm living in a box in the alley and haven't seen soap and water for three months.

[siligut]

143. Yes, typical bipolar behavior abuses substances.

And of course, I meant no offense, just covering all bases on a public message board. Did you tell the health professionals about the energy drinks? L-carnitine can precipitate a hypo-manic episode.

Again, I am sorry for your experience. Please understand, western medicine is based of having a diagnosis. Then that diagnosis has a treatment. They tried to push you, a round peg, into a square hole so they could know what to do with you.

I have been following much of your story, sometimes the threads would get quite long so maybe I didn't get everything you told us. I just shared standard advice.

[MindPilot]

41. I agree and feel the same way.

Having had some similar experiences, I now would no more talk to a mental health professional than I would an FBI agent.

This is a very slippery slope; I can easily imagine a scenario where your "mental health status" becomes like your credit score, accessible to everybody except you.

[loyalsister]

43. "mental health status" - credit score

That does seem to be where some want to take us. It is absolutely shameful.

[HereSince1628]

46. I feel like I helped create the path for this anxiety and facilitated the search

for reassurance in this family of threads, through expression of my concerns regarding the rights of persons with mental illness.

Although discussion of that topic is legitimate enough, I'm not sure that endorsing the anxiety is appropriate in this context.

[Coyotl]

45. Take a vacation already

A month on the beaches in Mexico may do more good for your health and state of mind than all the doctors in the world. Sometimes, our environment is the problem, and we cannot see that while still inside that bubble.

[dembotoz]

47. i see the scarlet letter fear is real

the nra needs to push public attention away from themselves and folks who have sought treatment do not have a good lobby.

will the question -Have you ever sought or recieved services from a counselor or social worker? become a standard for employement?

[backscatter712]

79. Look at the history of how the mentally ill have been treated in this country.

Their fears are very real, and well-justified.

For years, it was "hospitals" with all the comforts and kindness of Gitmo. Rubber rooms, electroshock, icepick lobotomies.

Then Reagan closed most of the hospitals, promising "community treatment" that never materialized. Result is that the seriously mentally ill ended up on the street.

How do most people regard those with a mental illness? Inferior. Contemptible. Subhuman. And every time there's a moral panic, they're the ones that get targeted and subjected to injustice.

Those of you who think the OP is being hyperbolic can kiss my ass.

[tallahasseedem]

97. +1

Some of the reactions to the OP are truly disgusting.

[Cetacea]

168. Thank you

And bravo to the OP for putting up with the crap here.

[truth2power]

48. If I could attempt to parse what you're saying...

I think the gist of your OP is not so much your past experience with the mental health system, which was no doubt horrendous, but your concern that all this talk about a mental health database is going to stigmatize anyone who has ever sought help for emotional/psychiatric problems.

I agree, and I would refer everyone to a recent David Packman show http://davidpackman.com where he observed that even some guy who sought therapy because he was having trouble sleeping would end up in the database. That serves no purpose at all.

I wish I could link to that comment, but I can't find it.

While this country is in dire need of better mental health services, a database such as being pushed by the NRA would do more harm than good, IMO.

Anyway, it would have made no difference in the Sandy Hook case because Adam Lanza's firearms were purchased by his mother, legally.

[thucythucy]

50. First, I want to say how much

I sympathize with you, and how sorry I am you experienced how demeaning and dehumanizing our "mental health" system can be.

I also want to agree with those who have posted above about getting a second opinion about your diagnosis.

My own personal experience is that psychiatrists are not the go-to people for this type of issue. Psychologists, psychiatric social workers--people who do "talking therapy" as opposed to simply writing scripts--can often be way more helpful than medication. Especially if there are issues of stress, trauma, and PTSD involved.

There are support groups and organizations made up of people in similar situations, who offer not only support around the mental health issues, but also around any discrimination or stigmatizing you might be experiencing. I would recommend MindFreedom, at http://www.mindfreedom.org/, or the National Empowerment Center, at http://www.power2u.org/.

Keep in mind that most states already have in place laws that require health care providers to inform the authorities or take other action (such as involuntary commitment) if they believe an individual poses a credible threat to themselves or others. My understanding is the law in New York will only be used for those seeking to purchase a firearm. Unless you have such plans (and given the stress you seem to be under I would strongly urge against it), you shouldn't be impacted by the law. This is my immediate sense of the issue--I could be wrong--but you might want to verify the actual details before putting yourself through a major anxiety attack around this.

And I wonder about your "buddy death threat guy." Do you mean you were being threatened at work? Death threats are not to be taken likely, and if you're being harassed and threatened you should think about contacting the authorities about this. There's no reason why you should have to endure that sort of abuse, and if "death threat guy" is threatening you there is a good likelihood he has and will threaten--if not actively abuse--others.

Yes, the demonization of people with mental health issues after each of these instances is grinding, demoralizing, oppressive. it begs a political answer--and political action--as well as a personal response, in the same way that stories about rape and gang rape--and the horrible victim blaming that often accompanies them--can be re-stimulating to people who are survivors. I know this from personal experience, and in my experience it helps not only to talk to others who have "been there," to seek community and support, but also to get involved politically. Action is often the best defense against being overwhelmed by feelings of powerlessness. You may not be in that sort of place right now--that is, willing or ready to be political--but you might want to think about it for the future.

Hang in there. Know that you have the strength to endure, survive, and flourish. It does get better -- I speak from very intense and very personal experience. Your post alone shows me you are an intelligent, articulate, discerning person. You obviously have a lot to offer--so please try to endure.

Best wishes and all good thoughts,

Thucy

[datasuspect]

52. "catastrophizing"

if i was concerned about staying under the radar, i wouldn't be telling this on a website that has 75% troll traffic - people whose sole obsession is to datamine DU to smear and castigate those who post here.

it's a fucking cottage industry for freepers, for christ's sake.

[KamaAina]

68. Thanks for the diagnosis, Dr. Zoeisright.

This is just the kind of reaction the OP is worried about.

[Pisces]

53. You're ruined because you can't buy a gun in NY? Sorry but maybe they did you a favor. No one

released your name to the public or your employer. This is a bullshit post.

[L0oniX]

85. +1

[L0oniX]

83. ...

dude ...

[Denninmi]

128. Well, OK then.

Not yet. How long before that is coming?

[jeff47]

54. Your post demonstrates that you really do need that treatment

First, it may take a few tries to find a therapist that works well with you. If the first one doesn't work, dump them and try another.

Second, as another poster in this thread mentioned, I highly recommend starting with a psychologist, who can then refer you to a psychiatrist if any medication is indicated.

Third, just seeking mental health care does not put you on some sort of list. You have to threaten to harm yourself or others. "I'm depressed" will not get you reported. "I'm so angry I'm going to shoot everyone at the store" will. And that has been the case for a very long time.

Please seek help. You need it.

[Fumesucker]

55. The OP is a good writer, well organized thoughts, complete sentences, good spelling, paragraphs even

Now imagine someone with mental illness but with nowhere near that level of thought processes and how they're going to react to the focus on the mentally ill and how something must be done that's been all over the M$M for the last month or so.

I don't think this is going to end well, it's going to drive the mentally ill away from treatment in droves.

The mentally ill are precarious enough, the idea (even if erroneous) that they will be put on some government blacklist is not going to help things.

[jeff47]

59. Depends on how much of their illness is paranoia. (nt)

[Fumesucker]

63. "No one could have predicted" is a popular saying on DU for a reason

I suspect that paranoid tendencies would be important to have treated if you want to reduce gun violence by the mentally ill.

[Fire Walk With Me]

71. And your qualifications are...? (facepalm)

You may wish to be helpful here but...

I barely watch television, only catching what's on as I pass through rooms and stores. Yet twice I've seen mainstream media (CNN, another main channel) shouting about "crazy people" as an absolute. One in four Americans suffer from some type and degree of "mental illness" and if all of us actually were the threat claimed, there would be a constant bloodbath. D'oh.

And yes, they're screwing us over. This is alarmist but contains enough truth:

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/breaking-new-york-creates-psychiatric-police-state/

If you wish to support us, please scream against the white-washing being imposed upon us, which may increase lest it be firmly contested. Peace.

[jeff47]

149. Because no matter what is being said on TV

This poster still needs help.

I'm sorry you find it inconvenient that they aren't saying "violent mentally ill" instead of "mentally ill". But that changes this poster's need for mental health care how?

[backscatter712]

84. Thank you, Dr. Frist! n/t

[Denninmi]

132. Your post demonstrates that you don't really know anything about me.

I'm not saying that to criticize, just to point out that most people jump to conclusions about people with mental illness.

I have a therapist, LLP, who I've worked with on and off since 1999, for a total of about 10 years of weekly sessions. And, I have a new, much much better psychiatrist, and I've been taking a mood stabilizer since late August.

As far as the list thing goes, mental health diagnosis doesn't get people listed YET. It's coming.

[jeff47]

150. Just like registration is gonna lead to gun seizures?

just to point out that most people jump to conclusions about people with mental illness.

First, people can only react to what you actually put in your post. You left out pertinent information, and are now complaining that we don't know it.

Second, you can't assume you're the only person here with a mental illness diagnosis.

As far as the list thing goes, mental health diagnosis doesn't get people listed YET. It's coming.

Just like gun registration is going to lead to gun seizures. And limited clip size is just the first step. And the assault weapons ban would be a first step. And so on, and so on.

Violent mentally ill have been forbidden from having guns in most states for a very long time now. And it's remained only violent mentally ill for decades. You think it will suddenly change because people on CNN aren't being as precise as you like with their language?

[madfloridian]

161. Wrong you are.

The poster has some righteous anger about the state of mental health care in this country. I have many concerns over the fact that people who seek care will now be exposed as part of gun control.

The poster seems to be very intelligent and able to express thoughts clearly and succinctly.

[JDPriestly]

58. If you aren't planning to get a gun, you probably have nothing to fear if this is reported by your

medical professionals to the authorities.

Do you realize how many people in the US have anxiety disorder, bi-polar personalities, etc.

By the way, I know people who have these conditions at times in their lives and then later live fine without them. And I know lots of people with anxiety disorder who are morally and personally far more trustworthy and honest and good than "normal" people.

You did the right thing by going to the doctor. Severe anxiety makes life so, so difficult as do most other conditions we call "mental illness."

I think that if they make a database of everyone who has seen a doctor for "mental illness," they will be amazed at its size. And of course the problem with that database will be that the most dangerous people will not be on it because they are people who do not have the humility and insight to seek help when they need it. So the mental health database will be pretty useless.

You are right that we stereotype the mentally ill. The vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous. Among the mentally ill are the Jared Loughners, but they are not typical. The database will be so huge that your name will not be important.

[bananas]

60. "a class that includes felons, rapists, pedophiles."

No stigma there!
They are criminilizing an illness.

[Marrah_G]

62. Are you still in treatment?

If not, you might want to find someone to talk to to help you through the stress you are feeling over this.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. There are a LOT of people who have been diagnosed/treated for stuff like BP/PTSD.

I think one thing that might help is to try to separate the reality from what's going on in your head; the depression may be feeding in itself. You may feel stigmatized but that does not mean, objectively, that you are being stigmatized, etc.

You are not alone. I would second the person who said "take a deep breath".

[flamingdem]

65. K&R

How about putting all the teabaggers and 80% of the Republicans on the watch list, geesh.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

70. I take antidepressants and would gladly wear a shirt telling people so...

I am not ashamed to make anything about me public.

[backscatter712]

72. K&R! A therapist's couch should be regarded with the sanctity of the confessional booth.

Granted, I don't have very many nice things to say about the Roman Catholic Church, but they did one thing right - the sanctity of confession. When someone steps into that booth and says "Bless me Father, for I have sinned.", nothing said in the booth leaves the booth. EVER. It doesn't matter if the sins being confessed are ax-murdering and child-molestation. The priest (if doing his job correctly) will not repeat what has been said in that booth to ANYONE.

And there's a reason for that. If a person thought that confidentiality could be violated, and he could get in trouble for seeking help, he won't be going there.

The same thing should be true for the offices of therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists. What gets said in that room when a patient is on the couch should not leave that room, EVER. Not to law-enforcement, not to insurance companies, not to ANYONE. And the reason is obvious. If a patient facing anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts or violent thoughts thought he was going to end up getting thrown in a psych ward or put on a sex-offender list for seeking help, he or she will not seek help.

IMHO, the psychologist should not even be able to intervene forcibly or break confidentiality even if a patient is dangerously suicidal. He should only be able to use powers of persuasion to convince the patient to get help. If the patient thinks he or she is going to be coerced, he's not going to seek help.

Why is this concept hard?

[arthritisR_US]

74. So tell me, would we expect a cancer patient

to "tough it out" and put a scarlet letter on them? I think not. You did the right thing in seeking out treatment and the way you have been made to feel by some really breaks my heart and brings my ire up to levels I didn't think possible.

The gun freaks are doing a smoke and mirrors routine. Don't look at us with our weapons of mass destruction. Nooo, look at them thar crazies. They make me livid at how effectively they have been able to change the focus and frame the discussion.

You are absolutely correct in stating that this will inevitably dissuade people from seeking treatment. Who wants to be singled out and further traumatized.

I am so sorry for what you have gone through with first the system and now through the ugliness of others.

[TheBlackAdder]

78. That's why you always go to a Psychologist or Counselor first!

Many psychiatrists will find something wrong with most patients and will prescribe medication for them.

When you go to a psychologist or counselor, they will interview you, and if you need to go to a psychiatrist will they say so. But, like with every medical issue, ALWAYS seek a second opinion. Psychologists and counselors do not prescribe medication. Always seek a well recommended one. Never use a TV one as they might be all hype and not respected in the medical community.

You might find that your issues are more related to your environment, improper knowledge on how to deal with situations, other people you associate with, etc. Most people do not have the education to know how to handle most things, so they will ask friends, family or try to wing it themselves. These professionals see hundreds of cases and know what works in each scenario. Psychologists and counselors are a good tool and as someone who went to one during my high-conflict divorce, they were invaluable. Seeing one is not a sign of anything - in fact, it's a sign that you are trying to address a situation and are turning to a counselor for help. Later, I received custody of the children. With children, I sought a parenting coach after receiving custody because the children were unruly. The coach educated me in the techniques to talk to the kids when there is a conflict and get them to settle it. If a mutual settlement is not reached, I just say 'xxx' and that's it... no backtalk or anything.

Far too often, psychiatrists make a ruling to justify the issuance of psycho-pharmaceuticals. This means that you will probably become a long-term client of theirs. Perhaps your needs will be met, perhaps they will be hidden with th use of the drugs. When you see many psychiatrists, they have a very heavy schedule and some might not address the root causes of your situation.

Also...

If you have children, NEVER send any medical information to the schools. Schools are not bound by HIPAA rules. Their information is quasi-public and might be sent to other schools or groups later on - without subpoena.

(This is strictly an opinion.)

[bettyellen]

86. the treatment is working, but you're suspending it because you "might" want to buy a gun and you

"might" end up on a list.

No offense, but please consider your priorities here. You've posted very flippantly about taking up shooting as a hobby. Why the fuck would that be more important than your mental health? You don't know if you'd even like shooting, never considered it until recently? WTF?

Take care of yourself, first and foremost.

[Denninmi]

133. I never said I was "suspending it"

And I haven't.

As far as the "might want to buy a gun" thing, I only want the same rights as everyone else has. It doesn't mean I want to choose to exercise that right. But it shouldn't be denied to my without due process.

[bettyellen]

144. so, the OP was pretty misleading, you have treatment you are happy with now. good.

you're not ever going to convince me that paranoid psychotics who threaten to kill people should be given free access to guns.
and misleading OPs like this don't move me at all. again, unless you value the opportunity to buy something you never wanted, and prize that more than your happiness and health, the op is nonsense.
unless you made serious threats to kill someone this would never apply to you. It's an unfounded fear or false construct at best. I'm sure you know better. there are arguments against reporting, but yours is just built on thin air and misleading statements.

[Denninmi]

145. So, what's so misleading about it.

Just because I'm in place X now doesn't mean it wasn't a horrific experience, and knowing then what I know now, I never would have made that phone call under any circumstances. It happened, I have to pick up the pieces to the best of my ability, and take a shot at having a better future. Interesting, the new psychiatrist asked me if I could trust her or any doctor after what I experienced. I replied to her that, just because I got a cruel, incompetent quack the first go around doesn't mean I am so embittered as to believe that the entire profession is tainted. I also told her I checked her out very carefully and was pleased with what I found, including a personal reference for one of the hospital staffers who told me this doctor was "the best" all around, including an excellent bedside manner.

I value being treated exactly like every other citizen and not having any constitutional right taken away without due process. What the specific right is is completely irrelevant. It could be anything from speech,religion, or assembly to the right to counsel, to vote, or the right not to be subject to unreasonable search and seizure. The underlying principle is the same no matter what the specific right is - equal protection, due process, and privacy.

My "health and happiness" is highly dependent on my sense of self worth, and living under conditions of being treated as a second class citizen or worse would certainly not help that situation. I'm sure in past situations, populations who were oppressed because of prejudice had many individuals who railed against the profound injustice of it all. And stigmatization is prejudice, nothing less.

If, in the hypothetical, I chose to get into hunting or target sports, I,would be as responsible with a firearm as anyone else who follows proper safety protocols. And I would have absolutely no concerns about " having it around". Oh please, there are probably a thousand ways for a determined individual to commit suicide if they have their mind made up to do it. So, extrapolating your comment to the wider view, that would mean I would have to get rid if kitchen knives, the antifreeze in my cars, sheets and ropes, electricity, natural gas, gasoline and kerosene, prescription medications of some types, plastic garbage bags, you name it. I guess for "complete security" a suicidal person belongs in a padded cell. I refuse to live imprisoned by some prejudice which implies I'm not a mature responsible adult.

Frankly, the stupid prejudiced comments I have seen in response to my posts almost make me want to go out and buy one purely out of spite and defiance. I would have no use for it, prior posts aside where I was fighting stigma and disapproval from the self-righteous, but I'm sure that various family members who hunt and shoot would certainly appreciate it as a gift.

As far as what you think of me, who cares? The Internet is full of opinion, pro/con, good/bad. If you think I'm going to hang my head in shame because some anonymous poster chastises me, well, don't hold your breath. If you don't like it, tough there's an ignore function that I would be honored to be placed on by any hateful prejudiced person.

[bettyellen]

155. Ok, so you do value unlimited gun rights over your health and happiness

And find no way to separate the two. And are thinking of buying a gun out of anger over this? Really?
I'm glad you're getting help and hope you bring up your issues of spitefulness and anger over this so you can get past this fixation, and your confusion over what laws are actually being proposed.
Because your 'concerns' are baseless. And gun ownership is not some magic bullet that will make you feel better. You don't own a gun now, are not "into guns" and no one gives a shit if you buy one. Not even yourself, a few months ago, gave a shit about owning a gun. Stigma my ass. Baseless posting.

[Denninmi]

159. You're right about one thing, guns were not on my radar screen on December 13th.

The entire issue was dumped upon millions of innocent people first by the NRA, seeking to instantly divert attention away from the real problem, the fact that America is armed to the teeth, and to scapegoat these millions for the acts of literally a handful of individuals. And in the present instance they did it before there was any concrete evidence of the shooter's mental health status. Then, we were placed, and still are, under attack by our own governments seeking to appease public opinion by also diminishing our rights with laws like the NY statute.

Your post actually appears to smack of the worst kind of ableism, you seem to sound as if I were incapable of knowing what is in my own best interest. Along with that goes your implication that I am simple either too stupid or too demented to even have the ability to comprehend statutes and the commentary and analysis of them. One thing I have learned from all of the us that my survival depends in me being neither a doormat or a punching bag for others anymore, I guess that fails to fit in with the stereotypes of the helpless or hopeless mentally I'll.

Of course I am angry over this issue, I take threats to my privacy, especially those with the potential to lead to seriousvdiscrimination, very seriously, even if they are only hypotheticals at this point. But, the speed with which NY cobbled together this law, with very little input from MH professionals and no input from mental health advocates suggests to me that this threat will soon move from the hypothetical to the very real for millions of Americans as right sing legislatures in the pocket of the NRA rush to enact similar laws in other states, such as my own, Michigan. The fact alone that the NY law places a permanent ownership ban on anyone reported to the database with no provision for future appeal or removal smacks of poor legislative consideration and a knee jerk political response.

I am hardly alone in my concerns, a significant number of mental health professionals in NY state have already expressed their concerns that this law will do exactly what I said in my OP, cause people who need treatment to avoid it out if the fear they will end up on a registry and expose themselves to various forms of future discrimination. And people already diagnosed will be immediately targeted. The argument that only "dangerously ill" people will be reported is also highly suspect, this new standard goes beyond the current standard of "duty to warn" and has the real potential to cause MH providers to cast a very wide net and report people who aren't even close to meeting the "duty to warn" standard.

Thirty seconds on Google yields a significant number of media reports of the concerns of many mental health professionals:

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130117/NEWS05/301170065/Mental-health-advocates-fear-N-Y-gun-law-may-keep-ill-from-seeking-treatment

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130117/NEWS05/301170065/Mental-health-advocates-fear-N-Y-gun-law-may-keep-ill-from-seeking-treatment

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130117/NEWS05/301170065/Mental-health-advocates-fear-N-Y-gun-law-may-keep-ill-from-seeking-treatment

I found a point from the link below most telling, the concern that police and corrections officers would avoid treatment because they would lose their right to carry weapons, permanently, and therefore their careers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235104578244224056908126.html?mod=WSJ_NY_MIDDLETopStories

I could post numerous other links, but they are easy to find with search engine, probably indicitive of the level of concern by people in the mental health sphere, either as professionals or patients. Of course, as with anything, there are opinions in both sides, my opinion is firmly on the side of those who believe this law is extremely overreaching.

But, I'll play your game briefly, if you'll indulge me, and I speculate what really bothers you isn't my concern over the legal and ethical questions surrounding these new or proposed laws. I suspect that it's because I have failed to tow the radical gun control line. It's really a shame that the country is held hostage by extremists on both ends of the spectrum who fail to even acknowledge the possibility of compromise that might lead to meaningful change. But that us the situation, and as long as these extremists write laws, make policy, and drown out moderate voices we will get ridiculous outcomes.

[bettyellen]

160. New Yorkers overwhelmingly support what you'd call 'radical" gun laws, and each day more and more

Americans do too.
What bothered me is solely that you have been posting again and again taunts about buying guns "out of spite" or "defiance" when you really have had no interest in them in the past. You either have no idea how messed up those motivations are, or you're (I suspect) just playing a game spamming this place about your new found obsession.
You want to be the poster boy for the dude who'd rather be mentally ill and have "unlimited rights" even though "unlimited rights" don't exist anywhere, have the fuck at it. Be sick for all I care. I live somewhere you're not going to be able to buy a gun anyway. Strangely enough, I have thousands of neighbors who don't take this as a personal slight or feel less than human because of it. Imagine that!

[Denninmi]

162. Well, I do take it as a personal slight, and I do feel it diminishes my humanity.

My prerogative.

Overwhelming public support for laws or policy certainly doesn't prove said laws' moral righteousness or legal validity. The German public overwhelmingly supported the Nazi Party and its policies in the 1930's, that hardly indicates that their laws were "right". The public is easily whipped into a frenzy by rhetoric and emotion during stressful times.

If you're so concerned about my posting style or motivations, do an alert in me, take it up in Meta, or take it up with EarlG and get me tombstoned. Because, you know, it's often easier to just try to silence unpopular or dissenting opinion than consider something that challenges preconceptions.

[bettyellen]

163. so people who want stricter gun control (the majority of DU and Dems) are like Nazis?

now we see what you really are.
Full of completely ridiculous hyperbole. Not shocked to see your advocating against the Democratic platform and the president.
At least we're clear on that now. Buh bye.

[Denninmi]

170. Have proof of it, then do an alert, take it to Meta, or to the Admins.

Can't win an argument so it's the old "you must be a right wing troll" chestnut?

Seriously the best you can do? How sad for you.

I'll oppose any policy from any side of the aisle which is designed to throw me and millions of people like me under the bus as punishment for the crimes of a literal handful of individuals.

If Obama's proposed changes to HIPPA involve breaking the wall of privacy which protects my medical records, then I'll oppose that with all of my energy as well. That remains to be seen.

I know, that doesn't fit into your world view that I should be locked up somewhere so pumped full of Haldol and Thorazine that I can't remember my own name and I spend the day drooling and pissing on myself. Punishment for my crime of being caught advocating while bipolar. Or, probably more accurate just to say as punishment for my crime of being bipolar.

Who's really the dangerous one here?

[bettyellen]

171. Oh please, claiming someone wants to lock you up now? LOL

MORE BULLSHIT. Just like your talk of DUers who favor gun regulations being like Nazis, it's nonsense and you know it.
How much more you posted is made up crap, a ploy for sympathy so you can post RW crap with impunity, we can only guess. See ya.

[Denninmi]

172. And yet you keep coming back.

Too bad your bye byes and see ya's aren't for real.

Still haven't seen your proof that I'm such a right wing troll.

Show your hand and do an alert on me, or fold and go back to wherever you come from.

Either way, getting my face isn't going to stop me, I've stared down bigger foes than you and lived to tell about it.

[bettyellen]

173. Because your posts likening us at DU as Nazis who want to lock you up are too fucking hilarious.

especially since they are coming out of a pity me thread.
thanks for the laughs!

[Sylvarose]

87. IMHO

This post sounds as if you've gotten caught up in some catastrophic thinking which is sooooo easy, harmful and difficult for those of us with anxiety disorders to deal with.

I agree with another poster. Take some deep cleansing breaths.

I don't know you..I don't know your therapist.

I know it took several tries before I found the right therapist for me. Got the right diagnosis (even when I fought it) and even longer to get the right cocktail of medications to treat my issues. However, it was worth it. The quality of my life is so vastly improved. I don't regret at all getting the care I need.

I don't fear any legislation about marking me with a "scarlet" letter because I know I'm not alone in this country. I know there are organizations like NAMI (http://www.nami.org) who fight to protect the rights of the mentally ill and to keep mental illness from being a stigma.

Plus, I see this debate as an opportunity to discuss how bad our mental health care is in our country..and maybe will help to improve it.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

88. I am so sick of the fact that our fellow citizens with mental illness

must endure the anguish that is associated with the heinous acts of violence committed by gun wielding assassins. What ever happened to the fact that there are evil people in this world who commit these horrific crimes. Has evil ceased to exist! So much easier to blame mental illness. The most civilized country in the world--phooey!

[michigandem58]

89. Maybe someone with a history of extreme anxiety, panic attacks, and depression shouldn't have a gun

I'm sorry for what you went through, but some background check re:mental health makes sense when it comes to gun ownership.

We do have to be careful not to broadbrush folks, yet at the same time we can't ignore the issue.

[Odin2005]

90. When the rumors about Lanza habing Asperger's starting appearing...

...I felt like wanting to hide away from the world and cry.

[liberalhistorian]

147. As the mother of an aspie

son who would never even want to hurt a fly, I felt the same way, and I remain scared for him and other aspies, as well as anyone who's ever had any mental health treatment (which would include yours truly). And I remember the horrible anti-aspie threads on here just afterwards, including one who insisted that Lanza had AS, that treatment for AS included anti-depressants, and that those drugs caused violence. It didn't matter how often she was told her post was bullshit, she continued to double down and there were way too many similar-minded people on here.

[Odin2005]

148. Are you talking about Mrs. Thoughts-Cause-Illness?

She drive me NUTS!

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. If legislators use current events to improve funding for mental illness, it's a good thing.

If (as it appears) they use it to stigmatize and scapegoat, it's not.

[HereSince1628]

94. 140 deaths from mass shooting draw more 10 magnitudes more outrage than 17000 gun suicides.

Which isn't to say mass shootings aren't horrific and don't need attention.

But it's a statement of the shape of Americans attitude. Go look at crime statistics...

State and Federal crime reports don't even include gun suicides in gun violence.

90 percent of suicides are associated with symptoms of mental illness rather more than the ~54% of mass shootings associated with diagnoses or clear symptoms of mental illness. Where are mental health $$ most needed?

80% of Americans want more effort made to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill as a means of stopping mass shootings. That doesn't parse down to 80% of Americans want more public dollars for mental health care.

I don't really think that the notion that Americans and their representatives actually care about helping the mentally ill, per se, is strongly evidenced in talks about plans to reduce gun violence.

The more evident message is that Americans are motivated by fear that the mentally ill might somehow cause harm to the non-mentally ill.

I doubt that orientation can do much good for the stigma or the discrimination that follows from existing stigma associated with mental illness.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Motives are less meaningful than results.

Increasing funding for, and access to, mental health services would be a good thing, mostly regardless of how legislators are convinced to get there.

17,000 gun suicides are just 17,000 dead guys. Society considers that no big deal.

[HereSince1628]

104. If it happens I expect it to be a shifting among rather than additions to medicaid funding.

we will see.

The problem I see with treating suicide as unimportant is that it overlooks pretty obvious links to the mass-shootings. Which is that a majority of them are suicide-homicides. As several studies have suggested, they may actually be primary suicides that use homicides as a means to emphasize their message.

[regjoe]

96. Terrible

It is so disheartening to hear people wish to "stigmatize" a certain group. To make a group look like "public enemy number one" to gain support for their own personal opinion. To hear people demand a group of people be registered and placed in some kind of database that lord only knows who has access to and what it could be used for.
You have done nothing wrong, but you are being punished for the actions of a few.

I feel for you man. There is no excuse for us to treat our fellow Americans with such contempt.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

98. Not really...

I don't know the specifics of the new law in New York, but the statutory language in must states regarding gun ownership and mental illness requires the purchaser to have been found mentally incompetent in a court of law or otherwise involuntarily confined to a mental institution.

Voluntarily seeking treatment would not effect your ability to purchase or possess a firearm. So your life has not been ruined.

[jberryhill]

101. My daughter is blind, should she be able to buy a gun?

Are short people being discriminated against in amusement parks?

[HereSince1628]

111. Short people will be judged as single cases based on individual characteristics determined

by designers, operators, and underwriters who associate an individual's height with a credible risk.

Being treated in a manner that ensures due process and equal protection is all that advocates for the mentally ill really want and expect.

[Denninmi]

135. If she wants to, yes.

I interpret your post to mean that you don't think she should have that right. Based upon her class status.

I would turn it around and ask you why you wouldn't want your daughter to be treated like a whole person with the same rights as anyone and who deserves to be shown respect in her decisions?

But maybe I'm doing to you what so many have done to me? Jumping to conclusions. If so, I apologize in advance.

[napoleon_in_rags]

105. Advocate with me for the three group model:

Group 1: people with no mental illness. Response none.
Group 2: people with, or who have had, mental health issues, but recognized them and responsibly sought treatment. (A very large group). Response? Ask them to turn in guns for the period of time they are suicidal, or incapable of working and needing support to live. Return rights when they get on their feet. This is safe because their nature is to seek help when they need it, rather than lash out or hurt themselves.
Group 3: People with mental illness, who are so far gone they don't know it. They believe demons are yelling at them on the street, and are yelling back. Very far out. Response? Give police ability to order psyche eval. Get them the far more extensive help they need in a safe setting, keep them there indefinitely if needed.

Notice how nobody gives up rights without giving up responsibilities, without receiving benefits. This creates a fiscal situation that prevents Soviet style branding of dissidents as mentally ill, as only the most extreme cases can afford to be cared for indefinitely.

[HereSince1628]

110. The issues are due process and equal protection, not guns, and this just shits on that

This proposal shows very little serious consideration. I am not say there is not an intersection between mental illness and gun violence, but this just misses that by miles. It's just a hodge podge of vulgar notions.

It has problems with due process and equal protection...civil rights FOR EVERYBODY, even the mentally ill.

You propose a person out of work without a dx has full rights. A person with a dx and out of work is denied rights.

What the hell does unemployment have to do with this? Unless you can cough up some proof that unemployment contributes a statistically significant risk increase, this just looks like punishment for being unemployed while mentally ill. And unemployment is a big problem for the mentally ill that result from discrimination in employment against the mentally ill.

It's arbitrary... being based on the presence of ANY diagnosis. It's known that ALMOST ALL mental health diagnoses have NO elevated risk compared to the general population. That sort of criteria can be shown to do NOTHING to reduce gun violence, and it overbroadly and it will strip civil rightss of scores of millions of people who are not dangerous at all.

Why not do some reading next time?

[napoleon_in_rags]

113. Oh, I knew when I proposed FUNDING SUPPORTS for mentally ill somebody would be up in arms.

Its so much cheaper to give someone a diagnosis that prevents them the right to bear arms without committing to supporting them, but its not the right way.

What I'm proposing is 100% on the right track: If anybody who isn't a criminal is going to have rights removed (such as rights to bear arms) they deserve to have corresponding responsibilities removed, to get help with living. That way the whole thing is a trade: If somebody needs supports due to mental health crisis, they agree to give up guns to get them. When they no longer need supports full rights are restored. Its also with the spirit of the constitution.

"You propose a person out of work without a dx has full rights. A person with a dx and out of work is denied rights. "

I'm proposing that if a person seeks special supports for mental health issues, they need to be prepared to give up certain rights while they receive them. These can include right to booze, guns, and drugs.

Maybe asking people in need of treatment to give things up to get it sounds against their "rights", but its the correct way. I have the right to a beer right now, because I don't drink too much and hold down a job. If I developed alcoholism and lost my job and my house, the right solution is not to throw taxpayer money at me to keep me killing myself without asking me to change in any way, the right solution to get me into a treatment program that requires I stop drinking to help me get back on my feet. Yes I would be sacrificing a freedom/right in trade for treatment, but that's the way to do it.

[HiPointDem]

117. why should people have to give up their rights to get help? If the problem is alcoholism, &

you're seeking help for it, fine, it's logical giving up alcohol -- but i don't see any reason you'd need to be put into someone's database.

and if you're seeking help for depression or anxiety, why should you be mandated to give up alcohol or not be allowed to have a gun, or be put on some special list?

seems you're mixing apples and oranges.

[napoleon_in_rags]

138. If you're seeking help for suicidal depression, yes you should give up your guns for awhile.

Even if you just give them to a friend to hold on to, whatever. Half the gun deaths in the country are from suicides, and they say holding them back for 30 seconds creates a large statistical likelihood they won't do it, and recover.

But let's be clear. What I'm talking about is debilitating disorders, ones that require staying somewhere, or living off some kind of benefits. If you lose your job and need support living - then you need to sacrifice certain things to get that. This support doesn't need to go to the full expensive (and often not healing) experience of being in an institution, for many it could take the form of subsidized peaceful work, planting a garden or something for a period of time, while going to group and having a case worker/therapist helping you make a plan, perhaps coming to your house (where the worker does NOT want to go if you're sitting there sweating bullets clutching a gun) But to get help at that level you have to be willing to change, to give some things up.

but i don't see any reason you'd need to be put into someone's database.
...or be put on some special list?

The reason I'm vocally standing up for this is precisely because I am fighting "the list" approach. The list approach is to violate doctor patient confidentiality, grab medical records of everybody, actively scan them for mental health complaints, and put them on a list where their right to bear arms is taken away (even though they have committed no crime) without giving them anything in return. The effect is the exact opposite of the intended, as it will drive people away from ever reporting mental health issues, through posts like the OP. And systematic denying citizens of their rights through spurious "mental health" claims has a dark history in totalist regimes.

What I would like to see is any removal of rights that occurs being bound to services rendered. This is constitutional, and has precedent. There was a shooting at my local hospital for instance, and I've been scanned for guns when I came in there. They have apparently said declared their hospital gun free, and they have a right to. In order for them to render service, you give up that right in that building. Its like with free speech too: You have it, but not in private settings: If somebody wants to kick you out of a private establishment for constitutionally protected speech they can.

If somebody is Kookoo for Koko puffs, then order them services based on some observable like self neglect. If they must give up rights to get those services, then so be it. Just like you leave your gun in the car for services you need at the hospital. But keep the rights and the services tied. I know the budget is tight and there's not a lot of money, and yes that means not a lot of people will have their guns removed. But I believe that's as it should be.

[HiPointDem]

146. having mental problems isn't a crime. there's no justification for taking away people's rights.

getting government benefits, ditto.

[napoleon_in_rags]

153. My approach doesn't take away rights. The list approach does.

My approach makes receiving services dependent on certain giving up certain things. It is exactly like saying getting recovery treatment is dependent on not drinking. Drinking isn't a crime, but you can't lay in the warm bed in the rehab center claiming you have a right to a bottle of whiskey while you stay there. Once you've given up certain responsibilities, (like taking care of yourself) you can also be asked to give up certain freedoms (like drinking), because the disease of alcoholism effects decision making, like serious mental illness can.

I think you're afraid my approach is about taking guns from welfare recipients or something? Its not, and that would be bad: Some rural poor need guns to live, as they get meat from hunting. What I'm talking about is specific to people seeking big help for mental health issues.

And you're sidestepping my major point: That there should be no giving up of rights without corresponding services rendered. That's what we're up against here, the idea of making a database that removes rights from individuals without giving them anything, essentially criminalizing mental illness. My approach treats any removal of rights as the terms of receiving a service, which there is a great deal of precedent for.

[HiPointDem]

156. your approach = giving up rights to get treatment. that is a very pernicious use of state power.

it's no different from requiring cancer patients to give up rights to access treatment, or requiring indigent people to give up rights in order to get state benefits.

it's really fascist & i don't like your rationalizations.

having mental problems isn't a crime.

[napoleon_in_rags]

164. So you think you can walk into a mental hospital with an assault rifle strapped on your back?

And they'll let you keep it inside after you are admitted? (after taking your shoe laces so you don't hang yourself, of course.)

It doesn't work that way. That's the status quo, and its how it should be. What I'm talking about is making sure that something like the status quo persists. Maybe the language I'm using is wrong: You don't give up your "right" to bear arms when you go into a gun free hospital unarmed, but you agree not to excercise it on their property, as a condition of service. That's constitutional.

[HiPointDem]

166. shifting the terms, i see.

[napoleon_in_rags]

169. Man, the curse of Babel is active tonight.

We're not connecting, I don't understand what you're saying so I'm not going to worry about it. Peace, and good luck with whatever it is that you dream of doing.

Fin.

[Denninmi]

137. You have brought this up before in response to some of my posts.

Why should I give up any of my rights without due process? And, where is all of this funding coming from? It doesn't exists now.

Your concept seems kind of cultish to me, like the fundamentalists who want to "save" gay people by "praying away the gay". Imposing all kinds of conditions and restrictions on people in exchange for "treatment" is problematic to me, because it demands great trust in the person who decides what those conditions and restrictions should be. Leaves open a lot of potential for people to impose their particular agenda on others.

What if, for example, one of the conditions for receiving medications and therapy were that you had to "find Jesus in your heart" and embrace fundamentalist Christianity in exchange? Oh, never mind, I'm just being stupid, no fundamentalists would EVER DREAM of imposing their beliefs on someone else. Never ever.

[napoleon_in_rags]

140. Here's the bad direction: Mentally ill, in a database. With rights removed.

And no benefits to show for it. Not even a portion the $30,000 that it costs to keep a violent felon incarcerated. Nothing. That doesn't take any funding. That's cheap. That's been used in totalitarian settings throughout the world.

Here's the direction I'm advocating: Tie any removal of a person's rights to services rendered, to prevent the above. Its really a very simple idea. It has nothing to do with fundamentalist Christians.

[petronius]

106. I'm sorry that this has been painful for you, but FWIW your posts (and others like them)

have helped change my thinking on the mental health/mental illness aspect of firearm policy. For a long time, I tended to be a bit knee-jerk in that area - just thinking that if we had better services and detection we could prevent many of these crimes. I'm learning how simplistic that thinking is, and how negatively it affects a huge number of people...

[alittlelark]

114. uuuhhh, yeah..... take a deep breath.....

Seeking psychiatric help is one of the sanest things one can do. You are able to recognize that there is a problem and actively seek help for it. The true nut cases are forced into it.

I sought help 6 yrs ago w/ panic attacks and extreme anxiety.... The solution for me was a divorce from the person that had been manipulating me for 32 years. It took me 4 years of off and on therapy to have that epiphany.

Life now seems sane again.

You are at the beginning of a journey. You can either work with it or not.......


Spouting fearful paranoid tripe here is not going to help you. You made the phone call (good decision), work w/it.

[Denninmi]

136. Fearful Paranoid Tripe?

Call it what you want. Were the people concerned about the Patriot Act just paranoid, or were their concerns legitimate?

[upi402]

115. This society is sick - dysfunctional

We over-react and lash out irrationally in wrong directions.

I can tell you that some psychologists are on the wrong damn side of the desk.

The RW reactionary "justice" system has created many felons after the "war on drugs" charade.

From wikipedia;
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population), Russia has the second highest rate (577 per 100,000), followed by Rwanda (561 per 100,000).

Now the folks wise enough to get mental health help will get stigmatized for a while. Just like getting an aids test when that started up.

[MrScorpio]

116. It's not your fault

The system let YOU down. You have no obligation to the system

[Denninmi]

142. Thanks, Mr. S.

You are still one cool dude.

[geckosfeet]

151. It is the NRA and their ilk pushing the agenda. And Cuomo bought it hook line and sinker.

[Dawson Leery]

154. There is a reason it is called "quakery".

People with mental health problems are still treated as second class citizens.

[nolabear]

157. I am sorry you are going through this. But it's not always that way. Many psychiatrists help.

I'm not even going to presume I know where your words are coming from because I don't know you. But I work with many, many psychiatrists who are caring providers who try very hard to be of help. We (I'm a counselor for the uninformed) learn a healthy dose of "there but for the grace..." very quickly and know that any of us could be in the position of one of our patients. We care about the whole person, not just the syndrome or the money (and believe me, the days of getting wealthy are long past for most of us). We work a lot of hours for free. We are humble about the fact that mental health issues are slippery, individual to each person, and that the very part person we are trying to help might not have the ability for one reason or another to comply. It's no one's fault; it's part of the problem. And even when they do, the road can be long, inexact, and exhausting.

You have rights. You are the employer. Unless you are under some kind of mandatory care you can change practitioners. There are bad ones out there but there are many good ones who deeply care about our people. I hope you can hear that because helplessness and despair are your worst enemy.

[patrice]

158. I'm not sure the whole thing can't be handled better, less stigmatizing. One way to do that would

be to be a lot less fast and free with certain labels, e.g. "mentally ill" and "sick".

There are perspectives in Psychology which regard the medical model to be part of the problem; what we call mental illness in many (most?) cases is a reaction to a toxic personal culture, a pathological emotional environment. It isn't the person who is all that sick; it's their place in their world and their dysfunctions are like anti-bodies, or an over-active immune system trying to get healthy against over-whelming odds.

Yeah, I know this implies one awful hell of a lot of psycho-linguistic re-programming in the culture at large, but maybe that could begin if community mental health centers were universally available and as easily accessible as churches, though I for one would be extremely cautious about the role of religion in mental health.

People should be able to go to mental health centers at the drop of a hat, to talk about and to work out ways to discover what to do about their difficulties. It should be so uniersal that it is widely understood that it is not necessary to be "sick" in order to engage in mental health activities, just like it isn't necessary to be sick to engage in physical health activities at you local health club.

Hey! Wouldn't it be great if the two, mental and physical health promotion and development were available at one-stop community resources for everyone that one wouldn't need to subscribe to somekind of belief system and donate to the businesses of "holy" men in order to avail themselves of.

[quaker bill]

167. I have lived my entire life without a gun

I do not feel at all deprived. I am sure I would pass any background check, I just don't want a gun. I have held a few and shot a few in my day, I have even been out hunting. I have no shortage of funds if I wanted to purchase one, I could easily do so. In the final analysis I am simply not impressed with the concept of owning a gun, and don't feel I am missing out on anything. They really aren't all that interesting. I find golf more entertaining and I only bother with that once every few years.